Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[Vittorioso]

One move I've been trying out on Zeraora is z-outrage. Currently Mega Lati@s and Modest Mega Alakazam are pretty popular Mega choices, and both beat regular Zeraora sets as the lati twins have enough bulk to avoid the 2hko: 60 SpA Zeraora Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 90-106 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO; and Alakazam traces volt absorb and can't be 2hko'ed by other moves that zera usually carries.

Z-Outrage patches this and acts as a lure of sorts, with the added benefit of outspeeding modest mega alakazam;

252 Atk Zeraora Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 263-310 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

252 Atk Zeraora Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 374-440 (124.2 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

Another small tidbit to do with Ev spreads, i think that running 196+ is worth it, as the added EV means you outspeed a +1 188+ speed sub zyguard (which ev to outspeed mega lop) allowing you to fire off an HP ice before they can kill you, either breaking their sub or doing a clean 55%~.

 

[JustoonSmitts]

I'm really digging Zeraora myself. Not Tapu Koko good, but still good. This thing is pretty versatile, being able to run a multitude of different sets from Choice Band to Life Orb Pivot to Calm Mind to Bulk Up to Work Up to even a neat Choice Scarf set I've been playing with (I admit I did get it from aim):

Zeraora @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 168 SpA / 88 Spe
Naïve Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Hidden Power Ice
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch

This thing is the fastest potential Scarfer in OU right now, outspeeding max Speed Choice Scarf Greninja by 1 point!

However, it ain't flawless: The Mega Eon twins, Mega Alakazam, Mega Venusaur, and Gastrodon put a stop to most sets. I also wish it had a better ability, a bit higher Attack, and Ice Punch. Could you imagine if this had Iron Fists or Galvanize? That'd make it so much better. But as is, it's pretty cool and lots of fun. The coverage and amount of sets you can run is insane and makes for a potentially threatening Pokémon in OU's future.

 

[Vengeance417]

I'm really digging Zeraora myself. Not Tapu Koko good, but still good. This thing is pretty versatile, being able to run a multitude of different sets from Choice Band to Life Orb Pivot to Calm Mind to Bulk Up to Work Up to even a neat Choice Scarf set I've been playing with (I admit I did get it from aim):

Zeraora @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 168 SpA / 88 Spe
Naïve Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Hidden Power Ice
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch

This thing is the fastest potential Scarfer in OU right now, outspeeding max Speed Choice Scarf Greninja by 1 point!

Another potential spread you could try is 188 Speed EVs so that you outpace 124 Speed Hawlucha post Seed, so the spread would look like:

Zeraora @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 SpA / 188 Spe
Naive Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]

You could also throw Fire Punch somewhere in there to get the jump on Scarf Kartana and perhaps ease your matchup against Ferrothorn and weakened Tapu Bulu, as well.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

I know the hype is all about Zeraora, but playing around with its for Greninja is pretty fun. Recently, I conjured this variation of the Z-Crystal Spikes set:

Greninja @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Protean
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Low Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Spikes

What I found really effective about the Fightinium Z is it's ability to destroy Heatran in one go, have a rather high chance at OHKOing Ferrothorn after stealth rock, and even have a chance at KOing Chansey, surprising a usual check of Greninja and eliminating the fat blob. Normally, on the Spikes Z-Crystal, one has to run either HP Fire (for Ferrothorn) or Ice Beam, meaning one has to choose between the two. This set offers a way to get rid of Ferrothorn while running Ice Beam. Calcs are down below:

Heatran: 252 Atk Protean Greninja All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: (104.1-122.7%) Guaranteed KO
Ferrothorn: 252 Atk Protean Greninja All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: (90.9-107.9%) 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chansey: 252 Atk Protean Greninja All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs 244 HP / 252 Def+ Def Eviolite Chansey: (79.7-94%) 43.8% to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Other mons the Fightinium Z destroys include Kyurem-B, Tyranitar & Mega-Tyranitar. I fancy this set as an all around lure. A full attack Gunk Shot is quite capable of destroying several grass types, and low kick on it's own can destroy Tyranitar. It's not often Greninja runs a set (sans Choice Scarf) where it can run both Gunk Shot and Low Kick, thus its nice to surprise certain switch ins. Ice Beam is for the mandatory KO on Lando-T as well as on Zygarde and Gliscor, while dealing significant damage to other ground types and flying types. Spikes can actually help Greninja's own matchups, after spikes a KO is guaranteed against Ferrothorn, and 2 layers of spikes (or 1 layer and Stealth Rock) is enough to get the KO on the accursed fat blob known as Chansey.

Is it a bit gimmicky? Probably, but it's a well fashioned lure that can bait in some rather annoying mons, and serve a use as a fast and dangerous Pivot.

 

[paoisd]

+

Offensive Mega Latios + Choice Band Zeraora
I've been using Zeraora quite a bit and I think that this is definitely the most effective core that involves it. These two actually have great synergy together. Choice band Zeraora is naturally weak to things like Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Landorus, Gliscor and things like that. With knock off and volt switch it can cripple these checks/gain momentum from them switching in. If you have a Zeraora in and you killed the opposing team's Landorus or Gliscor and they have a Tangrowth, naturally that would be their switch in. You can knock off on the switch, switch out and force out the Tangrowth. Next time if you have Zeraora in and you think they're gonna go into Tangrowth, you can volt on it into Mega Lati who can ice beam it and without the assault vest, it can take care of it pretty easily. This seems pretty situational but it is actually a scenario that's pretty common. Also, Mega Lati provides a ground immunity which is very important to have on a team with Zeraora. Finally, this choice band Zeraora set runs close combat, so it can ohko some things that annoy Lati like Ferrothorn and Ttar (even though Latios has earthquake it can ohko Ttar instead of just a 2hko). I think this core should be looked into a lot because it can be a serious threat in the metagame.

Team Example: http://pokepast.es/f43495a9be447dda

Edit: Banded close combat does not ohko Ferrothorn it does like at most 90 ish percent but that's still really good

 

[A]

Damage Reduction Berries in OU: Analysis and Review

Oh hey uh this just came out, I think this set should've also been on it but I haven't tested it enough to warrant it yet at the time I finished writing it (also credits to LifeisDANK for art btw)

​

ALUNETH (Magearna) @ Shuca Berry (/ Fairium Z / Leftovers)
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split

Not my original invention but I tweaked the EV spread a fair bit; this pretty much works super well on Sticky Web or like HO builds, or builds that can provide a lot of speed control like Paralysis support. Mage can go to town vs a lot of common stall cores excluding Jirachi and Amoonguss ones, and Lele's dropped a fair bit and you wont always see Jirachi so you aren't exactly bothered. Also, Shuca Berry provides a really interesting dynamic to the fray because it means you can rid of your opponent's Zygarde, Scarf Landorus-Therian, Gliscor, etc which makes it so your team has an easier time in general, and this normally brings the tempo to you, most of those pokemon are pretty much integral for teams and getting rid of them can shut an entire team down or at least put you in a very favorable position. Shuca Magearna isn't anything new but a variant of it that handles most stalls and balances sounds interesting. I think Thunderbolt can be replaced by another option, but it does work alright.

(edit: if you're in sticky web or if jirachi gets paralyzed u beat it)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-767241472
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-763528665

 

[robopoke]

Damage Reduction Berries in OU: Analysis and Review

Oh hey uh this just came out, I think this set should've also been on it but I haven't tested it enough to warrant it yet at the time I finished writing it (also credits to LifeisDANK for art btw)

​

ALUNETH (Magearna) @ Shuca Berry (/ Fairium Z / Leftovers)
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split

Not my original invention but I tweaked the EV spread a fair bit; this pretty much works super well on Sticky Web or like HO builds, or builds that can provide a lot of speed control like Paralysis support. Mage can go to town vs a lot of common stall cores excluding Jirachi and Amoonguss ones, and Lele's dropped a fair bit and you wont always see Jirachi so you aren't exactly bothered. Also, Shuca Berry provides a really interesting dynamic to the fray because it means you can rid of your opponent's Zygarde, Scarf Landorus-Therian, Gliscor, etc which makes it so your team has an easier time in general, and this normally brings the tempo to you, most of those pokemon are pretty much integral for teams and getting rid of them can shut an entire team down or at least put you in a very favorable position. Shuca Magearna isn't anything new but a variant of it that handles most stalls and balances sounds interesting. I think Thunderbolt can be replaced by another option, but it does work alright.

(edit: if you're in sticky web or if jirachi gets paralyzed u beat it)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-767241472
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-763528665

This Set is also nice on fatter teams with a physically defensive spread to switch into Hoopa-U, Lele, CB TTar Stabs while checking Mega Medi + acting as a wincon. I do not recommend Leftovers because this reveals your item and takes off the pressure of your opponents gameplan while also making Pain Split less amazing. The lack of special Attack investment makes running Fairium Z more attractive for the immediate damage. I did not come up with this Set, in fact I copied my friend To Live and Lie (he has thousand alts and he uses cool stuff) on the ladder who beat me with this. I then peaked almost 92% GXE with the team used in the replays (I usually pair it with Grassy Terrain for obv. reasons).


The Physdefspread also helps setting up consistently vs Tangrowth and Gastrodons, mons that are quite popular these days.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-702142419
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-702205076
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-702070385

btw Amoonguss is not a counter.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

Excadrill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Brick Break --> Screens are for nerds, TBH
- Iron Head

I have found AV exca to be really effective at the moment. It's probably the best offensive check to Tapu Koko and magearna. Moldbreaker is nice but since you can't run rocks, I'm not wedded to it and would definitely just switch to Sand Rush if I had a Ttar. Being able to blindly click EQ when they have rotom/latis is nice though. Pairs very well with wish support from some physically bulky thing -- unaware clefable, for example. Excadrill does have pretty hard counters in Lando-T, Celesteela and Zapdos, but those switches are pretty much forced, because there is very little that likes taking a neutral EQ off 405 attack.

And yeah found that I clicked brick break more than rock slide, so those stupid veil teams can go die in a hole.

 

[curiosity]

So this thread's dead again. So here's my observations from the past 3 months:

​

It would be a disservice to not mention the changes that have made these two more prominent. To begin, I feel as if discussing the prominence of offensive heatran sets, which have slowly begun to dominate the meta. With the meta now seeing revolving around balance, offensive heatran is honestly one of the hardest breakers for the vast majority of balance (and even stall) builds to deal with, as it not only mandates the use of multiple consistent switch-ins, but it also will most likely have the capabilities to break past at minimum one designated check, although you do require different z-crystals to break past different checks. Firium allows it to break past Gliscor, Sableye and boosted Reuniclus, which is especially notable as a notable percentage of Reuniclus are beginning to run Signal Beam or Shadow Ball over Focus Blast, while Steelium sets allows it to break past Mega Alakazam as well as Mega Lati@s. I feel obliged to mention that Grassium is also an option to hit notable checks such as Gastrodon, Quagsire and even Zygarde, but believe that Gastrodon is a traditionally poor check to Heatran, seeing as you're prevented from recovering by taunt and residual damage from the likes of spikes and toxic is really easy to accumulate. In a really smooth transition, I also find myself opting to use Will-O-Wisp over Toxic at an increasing rate, as you are easily able to cripple the likes of Gliscor, Zygarde and Mega Latios (as well as Lucha that try to set up on you, but that's no longer relevant seeing that every team on earth is now fully prepared for that) without having to dedicate a moveslot for a z move (ie solar beam or flash cannon) and even preventing the former from being a consistent switch-in, though it does mean having a slightly worse matchup versus chansey, latias and gastrodon.

Zygarde also appreciates major changes to the meta, with the primary change being the notable decline of defensive landorus, which I'm glad to see has died in usage, seeing as it mostly existed to check Zygarde, while ironically being a terrible check to it, although recent shifts such as the rise of curse scizor, mega lati@s, clef and the resurgence of tang makes breaking a lot more difficult for this 'mon. I honestly think that Dragon Dance sets aren't as good as they were a few months ago, especially since 'mons such as curse scizor, ice beam lati@s, defensive scarf lando, Alakazam and mixed def AV tang have come back into relevance, as well as the fact that most balance builds are able to pivot around it. I personally find that Choice Banded sets are still the best sets, as it is still able to heavily punish Clefable, as well just hitting harder in general without a boost. There are only a small handful of options on balance and stall that can reliably switch into banded zygarde. When looking for reliable switch-ins, balance is limited to Tangrowth, defensive scarf Landorus and Mega Scizor, although options such as Mega Latias, and Tapu Bulu can be decent switch-ins, they all fear either an Outrage or an Iron Tail, making them less consistent than the former. Stall is basically restricted to Quagsire and Tangrowth when thinking of good switch-ins, as everything else is blown away by a boosted Outrage or TArrows.

​

I'm lumping these three together because they are some of my favourite picks to use on balance:
Clefable is something that I failed to discuss when Wish + Softboiled was the Next Best Thing™ and while the initial period of hype has slowly died down, I believe that Clefable is currently at its best. Clefable is honestly one of the most splashable 'mons on balance, seeing as it provides so much utility in the form of a stealth rocker that not only has the capability to break past stall, but can provide recovery and a consistent check to many common balance breakers, including Zygarde, Mega Medicham and Weavile. I honestly still prefer the sheer utility of Wish on the majority of my builds, as giving huge chunks of HP back to 'mons such as Heatran, Zygarde and Bulu is invaluable to me, seeing as these 'mons are constantly being chipped away by residual damage. Calm Mind is also something that I really like using, especially on stall weak builds. I feel that this set is most effective, especially when paired with 'mons such as Reuni or MLati, as removing sableye for the two eases up a moveslot for the former and allows the latter to just win on its own merit with stored power. MMedi is also something that i've experimented with, as it also acts in a similar fashion to latias - as they both simply destroy stall once mega sableye has been removed. One thing to note is that thunder wave and knock off are still incredibly useful last moves, especially considering that kartana, heatran and tornadus are punished for freely switching into clef and the latter is especially helpful in a gliscor dominated meta.

Mega Alakazam is honestly one of my favourite 'mons to use on balance. Its niche on balance is virtually unparalleled - the ability to improve balance's defensive matchup versus heatran and mega latios as well as providing an excellent matchup versus both balance and offense. The ability to break past common balance cores including Latias + Steel, Pex + Steel + Clef and Torn + Clef + Steel is amazing for balance, especially when considering that the only other breaker that can reliably break through that core is Heatran, which provides a different (albeit similar in certain instances) niche to alakazam. Speaking of differences, one of my favourite aspects about Alakazam is its amazing matchup versus rain, which has the potential to easily break past balance with the combination of Swampert + Greninja + stallbreaker. Alakazam's capability to revenge kill swampert, qwilfish and greninja (albeit it's unreliable, seeing as you risk the speed tie or a rain boosted shuriken) is amazing, as all three - Qwilfish in particular - have an incredible matchup versus most common balance builds. Some other things I like on zam are eball, which improves the rain matchup even more, HP Ice, which improves the zygarde matchup and even calm mind, which helps break stall much more reliably and is also the segway to the next 'mon.

Reuniclus honestly hasn't changed that much since I last discussed it, but that's not the point of this post. If you know me by know, you know that I'm a huge advocator of reuniclus, and it's not hard to see why. Its amazing matchup versus stall and balance as well as the ability to reliably check (even counter) some of the meta's most prominent breakers, such as Mega Medicham, Mega Latios and Clefable and use the vast majority of the tier's walls in addition to the previously mentioned + even its own checks such as tyranitar and weavile as setup fodder is just incredible. Balance's counterplay is to either prevent it from setting up with Heatran, which is handled with focus blast, hard switch into something like ash-gren or weavile on the turn it sets up, which is punished heavily by clicking focus blast or signal beam on the switch, or win the 50-50 with pursuit trappers, which can be used as setup fodder if you win the prediction. I'll leave it there since I sound like a broken record, but expect more about this thing some time in the future.

​

Both Weavile and Mamoswine are incredibly underrated balance breakers that definitely deserve some more love. Both dismantle balance with absolutely minimal effort, as they both destroy traditional balance cores. I feel as if Weavile punishes balance a lot harder, due to it being able to pursuit trap notable breakers such as mega lati@s, tornadus, sd bulu and gliscor, while mamoswine's niche lies in being able to tear open defensive cores singlehandedly, with cores such as Ferro + Pex and Torn + Tran + Pex being absolute mamo bait. I honestly feel as if Metronome is the only viable item on Mamoswine, considering how quickly you get warn down factoring in Stealth Rock and Life Orb Recoil, combined with the constant boosting of the metronome just being superior in general, as it allows you to get notable kos that you otherwise would not be able to get. Honestly, there's no reason not to use Mamo in the current meta, seeing as nearly everything is favourable for it, especially the surge in Heatran, Zygarde and Toxapex usage, only further bolstering its balance breaking abilities. In terms of other options that I really like on Mamoswine, there honestly aren't too many. Superpower and Knock Off are the only options that I really like using in the last slot, as I often pair this with another rocker even though this beats literally every form of hazard control in the tier. I much prefer running Knock Off over superpower, as punishing celesteela is incredibly important for mamo. Continuing on with the sentiment of "punishes celesteela", Weavile also just wins versus balance. Choice banded sets allow it to puncture holes in balance, whether it is removing items from common switch ins such as celesteela, ferrothorn and heatran or getting crucial icicle crash flinches to ensure kos on 'mons such as clefable, ferrothorn or celesteela, there's no way that weavile is ever useless versus balance. Its matchup versus offence isn't bad either, as you reliably revenge kill dual dance zygarde and pick off weakened 'mons such as hawlucha and alakazam, although you are setup fodder for magearna. I should mention that both have an incredible matchup versus stall, especially if you get those crucial finches versus stuff like celesteela and skarmory, (although you shouldn't be using the latter) as well as easily breaking past chansey, tangrowth and gliscor. Weavile, much like mamoswine, shouldn't be deviating from its stardard set too much, seeing as Knock Off and Icicle Crash annoy heatran and celesteela respectively and you never get any opportunities to set up swords dances versus any competent player, so a z set is out of the question.

​

I guess more's coming soon.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Maybe its a bit early to discuss Zeraora, but I would like to discuss my observations with Zeraora so far.

As someone who has played around with tons of potential sets (including CB, LO, Calm Mind, and Work Up) I think Zeraora does obtain a niche in the meta when compared to Tapu Koko. Koko will definitely be the reigning offensive electric type even with Zeraora, but I do believe that the electric monkey has some considerable advantages that will make choosing an offensive electric type for ur team require more thought.

First off, Zeraora has great coverage, arguably better than Koko's. He is able to hit Ferrothorn and Lando-T in the same moves. Koko has to choose between two hidden powers, and using one leaves Koko without coverage for the other. However, Zeraora has access to Fighting type coverage in all of his sets, even his Calm Mind set via Focus Blast. Overall Zeraora's superior coverage is a factor to note.

Secondly, a minor one, Zeraora's speed tier. Koko is fast all right, but Zeraora is able to out speed Mega Lopunny and Ash-Ninja. he's even able to out speed certain scarfers, such as Heatran, and sweepers, such as DD Mega Tyranitar. It's a nice touch for a fast and frail electric type.

Thirdly, Zeraora can also run numerous sets. While only time and the meta will determine how many he can run, at the very least CB and Calm Mind have some steam behind them. It can leave the opponent second guessing which set is being used, and punish a wrong decision by the opponent.

Finally, Zeraora's ability allows it too act as a soft check too electric types such as Koko and Zapdos. At least for the CB set I noticed it is ridiculously easy to switch into these mons and 2HKO both with Plasma Fists. However, Koko running Dazzling Gleam should be noted.

Of course Zeraora has shortcomings. Without a boosting move and/or item, his damage is way too low. Even his LO set is unable to achieve some very important KO's and 2HKOs. His lack of a physical Ice type move is really damaging, Ice Punch would be neat against foes like Lando and Zygarde, as well as hitting Grass and Ground types harder in general. Zeraora splashed at a really bad time in the meta, Mega Alakazam out speeds it, is able to absorb Plasma Fists thanks to trace, and force it out with its own attacks. The Mega Eon duo are hard walls to any Zeraora not running Knock Off. Some checks and counters to Zeraora include Mega Venusaur, Hippowdon, CS Lando, any bulky variant of Zygarde, Tape Bulu (if not running fire type coverage.)

Overall, I think Zeraora is a good Pokemon. Not amazing or excellent, but definitely a secondary option to Koko is looking for an alternative offensive electric type.

 

[Vengeance417]

Mega Alakazam out speeds it, is able to absorb Plasma Fists thanks to trace, and force it out with its own attacks.

This isn't 100% true as most Mega Alakazam sets are running Modest right now, which Jolly/Naive/Timid Zeraora outspeeds. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Mega Alakazam the best switchin as Banded Knock Off actually OHKOs from full:

252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 272-320 (108.3 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Knock Off on Zeraora's actually kinda huge on it as it can remove Landorus T's Choice Scarf on the switch as well as Tangrowth's and Amoonguss's Assault Vest, and it's a pretty safe move for it to go for in the early stages of the game.

 

[matthewc20090]

been a minute since ive played ou but i wanna bring attention to something that might be really good right now

standard vincune

the biggest reason why i think suicune is good right now is cause the meta has a ton of different new ways to break pex, from mega zam to the rise in fini to even mega latios, the meta seems so well prepared for pex that something thats completely invalidated by it might do ok. looking at the vr, on paper it seems ok versus top threats outside of like pex. being able to beat or take advantage of the two top mons in the tier right now means it gets plenty of opportunities to set up a sub. scald makes it hard for something like av bulu to come in, which is a common water resist right now. ferrothorn doesn't even 1v1 suicune as it gets pp stalled out of power whips unless it predicts every protect right. protect cune is also really good for scouting for like scarf lando or choiced mons in general.

overall i think suicune's underexplored at the moment cause ive only really seen it on veil builds, but i feel like it could fit on a lot more teams.

im not just theorymonning here's me beating down a guy without a pex. obviously he's not the best player and this is on lower ladder but even if he were better, suicune puts so much pressure on his team cause he really only has hawlucha to break it even at team preview. it also does well vs other gimmick playstyles like stall and trick room cause you can just set up and stall them out.

only meta trends that hurt it are like gastro rising but thats a cycle mon thats gonna fall soon anyway. tangs are running less spdef, bulus are being used as water resists, and zapdos fell to b+ on the vr which might not matter but does help suicune.

 

[vso]

been a minute since ive played ou but i wanna bring attention to something that might be really good right now
View attachment 127475
standard vincune

the biggest reason why i think suicune is good right now is cause the meta has a ton of different new ways to break pex, from mega zam to the rise in fini to even mega latios, the meta seems so well prepared for pex that something thats completely invalidated by it might do ok. looking at the vr, on paper it seems ok versus top threats outside of like pex. being able to beat or take advantage of the two top mons in the tier right now means it gets plenty of opportunities to set up a sub. scald makes it hard for something like av bulu to come in, which is a common water resist right now. ferrothorn doesn't even 1v1 suicune as it gets pp stalled out of power whips unless it predicts every protect right. protect cune is also really good for scouting for like scarf lando or choiced mons in general.

overall i think suicune's underexplored at the moment cause ive only really seen it on veil builds, but i feel like it could fit on a lot more teams.

im not just theorymonning here's me beating down a guy without a pex. obviously he's not the best player and this is on lower ladder but even if he were better, suicune puts so much pressure on his team cause he really only has hawlucha to break it even at team preview. it also does well vs other gimmick playstyles like stall and trick room cause you can just set up and stall them out.

only meta trends that hurt it are like gastro rising but thats a cycle mon thats gonna fall soon anyway. tangs are running less spdef, bulus are being used as water resists, and zapdos fell to b+ on the vr which might not matter but does help suicune.

pex is back up in usage already and Gastrodon is dropping very quickly. It’s got used 1 time in wcop round 2 and hasn’t been used after that. However, I think people often have a misconception that pex “invalidates” vincune when cune can fish for a scald burn on pex and chip it down (most common item is payapa) while also being able to force pex out because of considerably outpping pex,especially with the relatively recent pressure change where it pressure and wastes 2 hazes. However, the reason it is not used more is because backbones like mlati pex and tang pex are extremely popular which can both shut it down and even offensive mons like cm zam are rising in popularity. Roost Tapu Koko had popped up some time ago, but it still is very common and pex does not appreciate taking damage from it. It also dislikes spikes as spikes can chip its HP down.

 

[Marigold]

Finally decided to hit the ladder again after a few months of hiatus, was pretty done with the OU tier for a while. Took a look at the new sample teams and some tour replays, observed that despite all the magma trapper heatran counters being spammed like gastrodon, mega lati@s, and mega alakazam, heatran can still break down these sorts of balances with good ol' cancerous sub toxic.

subtoxic

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (if you're worried about mega sab matchup, run 44 def ev's and cut speed)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power

You could also run toxic and taunt on the same set, but then it becomes way too prediction-heavy to utilize consistently. Also, substitute forces your opponent to make more obvious plays or recklessly hard reads, giving you plenty of momentum to dictate the "balance cycle" in your favor. If your team has a really solid toxapex, gliscor (no tran can beat this anyway), and chansey matchup, then this set is really good for breaking down the more modern fat teams being spammed. The sub is also nice for niche situations like sucker punch 50/50's and eviscerating trick room setters. Heatran's typing forces switches like nobody's business, so enjoy subbing up every game!

For best results, pair with bulu for a pseudo sub-toxic gliscor thanks to added recovery. Alternatively, pair with wish clef for an even more enjoyable experience. Induced cancer not included.

Replays
I was 1700+, so the skill level is alright. The games were quality though.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-777123198 Vs Zam-Zone + Gastro Balance. Showcasing how sub heatran can dictate momentum.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-776640234 Vs Latios-M + Alomomola Bulky Offense. Heatran wears down kartana checks.

EDIT: added note about 44 def ev's for mega sab's knock off calc

 

[paoisd]

after laddering a bit for olt, i'm just gonna point out some of the things i've noticed

HO right now is kind of bullshit and very hard to play around with all the different kinds there are. you can be versing suicide lead rocks lando + dual screens koko + lucha + 3 other setup sweepers or you can be versing veil + suicide lead drill etc etc. basically ho is really good right now. some of the mons i've been seeing a lot on these ho's are suicide lando, alolan ninetales, dual screen koko, hawlucha, mega gyarados, sub cm speed boosting blacephalon, double dance zygarde, sub leech glare serperior and shift gear magearna. what really makes these teams hard to deal with is that a lot of these mons have a really great amount of bulk along with the power and setup capabilities.

some mons im really loving to use are tapu fini, kartana, kyurem b, rocky helmet chomp, and mega mawile, and i've also seen a good amount of usage of rotom-wash and jirachi which i think are also in a pretty good spot right now in the meta.

Tapu Fini:
I think this one is really peaking right now because it is just such a great blanket check to so many things in the meta. when you look at the top mons in the meta, you realize that fini beats almost all of these: lando, non grassium z heatran, clefable, zygarde, ash greninja, toxapex etc. a lot of these mons seem like fini can't beat them, but that's where taunt + nature's madness comes in. this combo of moves allows fini to kind of beat stall by itself as well as allowing it to handle things toxapex celesteela and ferrothorn to an extent. you pretty much need moonblast for ash gren, zygarde etc and if you don't have a defogger it can do that, and if you do have a defogger you can fit scald/hydro/surf to make it a better check to things water types are strong against. all in all this thing is really great right now and definitely is a premier mon imo and i noticed i end up putting this on a lot of my builds.

Kartana:
I've never loved kartana like some others have, but i feel like right now is the best its ever been. i'm really loving banded because its just so strong and can outspeed a lot of things and then just 2hko a lot of resisted mons, and it can knock things like celesteela or tangrowth. band is also really good because leaf blade and smart strike are pretty spammable late game and beast boost gives this thing a ridiculous attack stat and you end up just snowballing teams. scarf is also as great as ever and really helps against those hyper offense teams i mentioned earlier. SD is good, but i feel like if you want to use that you should just use sd bulu or banded kart instead.

Kyurem B:
Kyurem B is really good because although it doesn't have a great overall matchup against HO, with subzero slammer you practically guarantee at least one kill a game and if you can get it in safely, HO teams have no switchins to any of this guy's moves. it is also really good against balance, something else that is super prominent right now in the meta. theres not much different with kyurem i just wanted to post out that it is still really good right now and should not be slept on.

Garchomp:
This seems weird, but i really feel like garchomp is in a great place right now. it's helmet set is really good because it is great at getting up rocks and it is one of the best heatran switchins you can get. i feel like right now when i verse HO teams this is the mon that puts in the most work. helmet + rough skin is great for chipping things like mega gyarados and landos if they u turn on you and stuff like that. dragon tail is also amazing to have for great chip and obviously cause it just phases things like hawlucha kartana gyarados etc that thing they can just set up on you. a lot of people don't really no what to do against this mon when they're using HO and end up just getting their team weakened a bunch by this. (for those wondering this is the set, ev's to outspeed heatran http://pokepast.es/7c324099bfa26891)

Mega Mawile:
I've always been a big fan of this pokemon and i think right now it's at the best it's ever been. it kind of hurt me to admit that sd isn't the best set anymore, but it's true. the all out attacker set, although it looks extremely weird, is amazing right now. it doesn't carry sucker punch or play rough but almost no teams can switch into it at all. steel electric ice fire coverage is absolutely ridiculous and i think this is one of the best breakers in the game right now. standard defensive mons like tangrowth, celesteela, landorus, toxapex etc can't afford to switch into this guy because they are risking just dying right away.

Rotom Wash:
While i don't feel like this is great, i do think it is better than a lot of people give it credit for. the ability to just switch into most heatrans, landorus, and greninja a couple times and either cripple them with will o wisp, get momentum or just defog is great. a lot of teams also don't like switching into this thing at all just because it is very hard to find a mon that's fine with taking a hydro volt switch or will o wisp all in one. this does has its flaws and can be easily pressured but the fact that it has iapapa is really great to basically give it a second life and a chance to defog again.

Jirachi:
I think this mon is really, really, amazing right now. the set that i'm using (http://pokepast.es/872f284c9072e4e6 standard set with bodyslam for para's and enough speed to outspeed heatran and u turn on it) is really good imo. this thing can pretty much almost take a big hit whenever you need it and gain you momentum, set up rocks, or para something. it is an amazing switch in to tapu lele and magearna and can be a nice situational check to things such as kartana and kyurem black. the fact that you can outspeed heatran is great because you can set up rocks as they switch in on you, and instead of having to make a read with a hard switch you can u turn and react to if they switch out or stay in.

 

[wisdom dog]

steel electric ice fire coverage.

Just one question, what does iron head hit that play rough doesnt?

 

[Mellow]

Just one question, what does iron head hit that play rough doesnt?

It hits Venusaur which walls the set otherwise - it might be for other things too but I can't see what they'd be.

 

[wisdom dog]

It hits Venusaur which walls the set otherwise - it might be for other things too but I can't see what they'd be.

Thats the one mon i could think of, but idk if its worth dropping play rough for a mon that isnt seen much anymore, when play rough hits so many threats significantly harder

 

[Vengeance417]

Thats the one mon i could think of, but idk if its worth dropping play rough for a mon that isnt seen much anymore, when play rough hits so many threats significantly harder

Play Rough would be the standard move for SD sets, but people are opting for Iron Head + Ice Punch on AoA for the reliable 100% accuracy each has. Iron Head will OHKO Clefable and Tapu Bulu which would otherwise survive a Play Rough to do whatever it is they want whether it's that turn (vs Clef) or the next turn (Bulu). Also, missing Play Rough vs these two could force you to lose so much momentum vs them.

Since Mega Mawile isn't running Play Rough to hit mons like Zygarde, Mega Lati@s, Gliscor, and Lando-T as hard as possible, that's where Ice Punch comes in. Ice Punch pretty much OHKOes most Scarf Landos and Gliscors on the switch while still threatening Zygarde, Mega Lati@s, Torn-T, Amoonguss, and even 2HKOs phys def Tangrowth after rocks whereas Play Rough isn't guaranteed to do so.

That being said, Play Rough still isn't bad for AoA. You hit Gastrodon and Mega Heracross a lot harder with it, for sure, and by running Play Rough, you can use something like Knock Off or Sucker Punch in place of Ice Punch if you wanted to since Play Rough hits most of the targets Ice Punch would other than Amoonguss and Tangrowth.

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

I was wondering, since the hot topic recently has been zeraora, what are peoples thoughts of the possibility of zeraora staying in ou?

I think it has a decent niche in ou and since it being the "new mon" is obviously getting all the attention, but it's average stats and coverage moves available are pretty lackluster all around don't really seem like lasting OU material.

The common set people are running is the LO HP Ice / Knock off set which just makes it more of a utility mon on a lot of the teams it's put on.

It's not necessarily bad and will probably end up being UUBL, but i was wondering what everyone else thought.

All I can say is that it isn't the best electric type by far in OU, and all it has going for it is amazing speed, and a somewhat-acceptable 112 attack. It just gets too little done for how much a risk it is. Some of the top-tier threats ohko it, and while it can beat Greninja, Tapu Koko does it better, while providing more for the team.
If it isn't banned from UU, I wouldn't expect it to drop further.

 

[VCrakeV]

So, there are lots of new trends on balance: various heatran sets, mega Lati@s, recover Zam, and calm mind Reuniclus, to name a few. But has there been much change for HO? I've mostly been using the same old stuff, outside of trying out Zeraora for a few days. Scarf still seems to be the most popular on Lele, specs on Koko. I've personally been using metronome on Lele for its matchup against stall. Most notably, it can 1v1 Sableye and chip switch ins, which is notable for partners that struggle with Sableye, like Megacham and Zam. I've been using a modified variant of recover Zam, since Heatran is so common and hard to switch in on for HO (though Keldeo is a decent check). Outside of that, I haven't picked up much in the past few months.

What has everyone else been running on HO? What about psychic spam in particular, and what other HO archetypes are being used?

 

[robofiend]

So, there are lots of new trends on balance: various heatran sets, mega Lati@s, recover Zam, and calm mind Reuniclus, to name a few. But has there been much change for HO? I've mostly been using the same old stuff, outside of trying out Zeraora for a few days. Scarf still seems to be the most popular on Lele, specs on Koko. I've personally been using metronome on Lele for its matchup against stall. Most notably, it can 1v1 Sableye and chip switch ins, which is notable for partners that struggle with Sableye, like Megacham and Zam. I've been using a modified variant of recover Zam, since Heatran is so common and hard to switch in on for HO (though Keldeo is a decent check). Outside of that, I haven't picked up much in the past few months.

What has everyone else been running on HO? What about psychic spam in particular, and what other HO archetypes are being used?

My favorite HO archtype is the Victory Staraptor core, though it's nowhere near as popular as AV, which has become way more than just another form of meme offense:

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn

Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- U-turn
- Defog
- Brave Bird

Both of these mons have the HP stat to flat out KO almost everything in the tier (save Chansey and Gastrodon) with Final Gambit. They lure problematic mons like Heatran, Magearna, and Landorus-T, giving opportunities to a ton of mons who don't like Intimidate, HP Ice or Lando's Rocky Helmet. They also open doors for mons hate getting trapped/walled by Heatran like Lele, Scarf Jirachi/Togekiss, non HP Ground Volcarona, or Scarf Kartana. Of course, this combo relies heavily on hitting hard in the early game, and some players might predict FG and sack things they don't need or try to get Rocks up. If you can U-Turn out, sometimes you can successfully bluff actual scarf sets on them and come back later to snag those KO's.

 

[curiosity]

So I wanted to share something that I've been using quite recently to some great success, with that mon being Decidueye.

Decidueye is something that i've really enjoyed using, and I honestly believe that it has gotten a lot better with recent meta shifts. So what exactly makes Decidueye so interesting? Well, Decidueye possesses the ability to trap quite a few 'mons, most notably bulkier grass types such as Tangrowth, Ferrothorn and Tapu Bulu and even other balance staples, such as Celsteela, Toxapex and even Gliscor, which it achieves through the use of its Signature move, Spirit Shackle. Spirit Shackle is a really cool move in the sense that it not only enables you to trap said mons, but it is also quite strong, especially when boosted by the Decidium Z, which turns Spirit Shackle into a 180 Base Powered Sinister Arrow raid, which really enables Decidueye to break past the vast majority of these 'mons, especially at +2. Now, you might be wondering how it even achieves the ability to set up, since it's not particularly bulky, but it surprisingly gains a lot more free turns than you think. Although its typing is usually quite poor, its typing grants it many useful resistances, allowing it to set up on the likes of Tangrowth, Ferrothorn and Tapu Bulu quite freely, as they don't have the ability to really do anything back in return, even with the former's access to both Knock Off and HP Ice, both of which are doing minimal damage in return, as well as setting up on Toxapex, as you now resist scald, Celesteela, which you can risk swords dancing in front of as flamethrower isn't doing enough to ohko you, as well as preventing recovery from it as you are now immune to leech seed. Swords Dance Gliscor can no longer touch you unless they are running the rare Ice Fang and Clefable's moonblast isn't doing a threatening amount of damage thanks to its decent natural bulk.
This sample set (as seen below) is Decidueye's best set, as it grants you the ability to do everything I mentioned above in addition to avoiding scald burns from the likes of Toxapex, as well as other forms of status.

sample set

Decidueye @ Decidium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit Shackle
- Substitute / Roost

I really love pairing Decidueye with mons such as Ash-Greninja, which I believe is its best partner. Greninja's ability to provide spikes support is simply fantastic for Decidueye, as it gives you an easier time breaking past the aforementioned, while Decidueye is able to trap some of Greninja's best checks in return. Tapu Koko is also quite nice, as it's able to bring you in for free with either Volt Switch or even U-turn, as well as Zygarde, which really loves Decidueye's ability to pressure the likes of Tangrowth, Quagsire and Pyukumuku from ever coming in. Some other good partners include Gliscor and Kartana, which appreciate grasses being removed, as well as Ferrothorn, which provides it consistent spikes support and additional defensive utility, as well as Mega Latios, which especially appreciates the removal of both Tangrowth and Celesteela.

However, Decidueye doesn't come without cost - there are honestly a hole slew of issues, including a terrible matchup versus offence, terrible matchup versus heatran and its crippling speed stat are just some of the many issues that decidueye has (not stating them all because it's late as per usual) and I really don't feel like listing them all at the current moment in time, so tl:dr, it's slow, weak before setup, has a terrible matchup versus quite a few notable mons (eg. Heatran, Greninja, Tornadus) and is slow. But I hope that doesn't stop you from using Decidueye! edit: Roost can be used over sub to give it a more longevity, however, your matchup versus toxapex becomes a lot more difficult, as you now must risk the scald brun.

edit: vso wanted me to mention this so here we are:
also shoutouts to martha for existing

it is a lot worse than lax tbh


another late edit, but decidueye kinda 6-0's stall so yeah use it

 

[Kutscher]

I haven't played OU recently, can someone explain me(maybe replays) about the new stall teams? In the last update, pyukumunku, moltres and buzzwole got rises, I am really confused.

 

[Finchinator]

I haven't played OU recently, can someone explain me(maybe replays) about the new stall teams? In the last update, pyukumunku, moltres and buzzwole got rises, I am really confused.

Pyukumuku is the best Unaware Pokemon. It has always had a niche, but now it is improving upon that, most notably with the combination of Block and Spite.

Moltres is a nice addition to some stall teams with Pressure -- it can outrun lead Excadrills to minimize their progress, check Kartana and Bulu, and also sponge Z Heatran attacks that otherwise are quite problematic.

Buzzwole is another niche stall Pokemon that is great to check Kartana, Zygarde, Bulu, and a few others. It is likely worse than the other two, but still of some note.

Some replays from tour games can be found here: 1 and 2, but they're also all over the ladder and OLT right now.