Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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Can we get some suspect tests soon?? Why is Zu and all these other irrelevant formats getting updates and not showdown's biggest format???? 3+ months of the same meta, while other formats are changing their doo doo formats. Shake it up a little, ask high tournament players etc if u don't know where to start. Make OU refreshed instead of us having to wait for the new game LOL. Bet the OU leader be wearing gray shirts with doo doo color pants or something.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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Can we get some suspect tests soon?? Why is Zu and all these other irrelevant formats getting updates and not showdown's biggest format???? 3+ months of the same meta, while other formats are changing their doo doo formats. Shake it up a little, ask high tournament players etc if u don't know where to start. Make OU refreshed instead of us having to wait for the new game LOL. Bet the OU leader be wearing gray shirts with doo doo color pants or something.
Nah.
 

Felixx

Death Race for Love
is a Pre-Contributor
Only defensive Zygarde can switch in. Banded takes about 50 percent from Fire Blast. Also Dragon Dance/Earthquake can beat Toxapex without haze. (Which is not a terrible set as it turns Charizard into something that destroys offense.)
Zard Y runs Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Solar Beam, Focus Blast, and Roost

There's no slot to run DD + EQ unless u want to get rid of both Focus Blast and Roost, and unboosted EQ does jackshit, actually, even boosted EQ does jackshit too, and Pex still very frequently run Haze.
 

revelations

formerly MysticalHaze
Can we get some suspect tests soon?? Why is Zu and all these other irrelevant formats getting updates and not showdown's biggest format???? 3+ months of the same meta, while other formats are changing their doo doo formats. Shake it up a little, ask high tournament players etc if u don't know where to start. Make OU refreshed instead of us having to wait for the new game LOL. Bet the OU leader be wearing gray shirts with doo doo color pants or something.
A) Lets hope Finch doesn't see what you wrote. There aren't suspect tests as of now b/c the meta is fairly balanced and nothing is quote unquote "Broken or OP". Mons like Marshadow and Pheromosa were right off the bat extremely good in the meta with not much doing good against it. There isn't a pokemon now that is like that, having no switchins and being just pure Broken. The other formats are getting suspects b/c of the reason I just stated against OU not having a suspect. Take Stoutland for example. Stoutland really lacks a switchin now that the ZU metagame has shifted a lot in its favor. But in OU stuff like that isn't really happening like Landorus-T is the arguably the best mon in OU, but it isn't broken. It has it's checks such as Ash-Gren and Weavile. Overall, unless something very dramatic happens like a mon from Ubers drops (which won't even happen) the metagame won't shift anytime soon, and suspects wont happen.

e:Oof Finch saw it
 
Bet the OU leader be wearing gray shirts with doo doo color pants or something.
R u saying no suspect tests or r u saying u don't wear gray shirts with doo doo color pants :blobthinking:
If that was an attempted "OU TLs are Nazis", it was the funniest attempt I've ever seen.

Also, Lando-T might not even be S-rank at the next tier update, how the hell are people still saying it's broken?
 

locri

formerly Lyd
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Sorry to break up the shitposting, but I just wanted to talk a bit about this Pokémon. Ever since the begging of the generation, Mega Mawile has been a solid pick, for obvious reasons. There’s no way a Pokémon with Huge Power, this amazing defensive typing, great coverage, pre-Mega Intimidate, and a bunch of other valuable traits can be bad. But what recently happened to Mega Mawile is a product of mostly OLT. Ladder Tournaments often open up opportunities for the edges of the team-archetype spectrum, letting Stall and Hyper Offense see a lot more growth than what they usually would. And guess what? Mega Mawile handles both playstyles extremely well. It also handles Balance exceptioaly well, which is important because that’s still the overall best playstyle, and ladder-geared teams often try to have a good matchup against Balance. With the ladder phase of OLT coming to a close, the ease Mega Mawile displays to tear pretty much any team apart is still on the spotlight, making it remain as a prime offensive threat. That being said, a couple small metagame trends contribute a bit for Mega Mawile. Landorus-T now mostly opts for more offensive sets; Glare is now a great tool that can potentially make up for Mega Mawile’s rather lackluster Speed tier; lastly, the relevance of Mega Alakazam makes it so Heatran gives up Will-O-Wisp for Toxic a lot more often, letting Mega Mawile pick off weakened Heatran with Sucker Punch. All in all, Mega Mawile is an excellent pick in the current metagame, and I’m glad it’s getting the recognition it deserves.
 
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I'd like to also point out that dual-scarf Landorus-T and Heatran have been absolutely excellent in keeping offensive pressure and sapping enemy momentum. Not only do these two Pokemon usually take care of a lot of each other's checks, but the surprise factor in not only both of these Pokemon being scarfed, but the fact that neither of these Pokemone are usually scarfed in current metagame trends lends for some surprise and room for mind games.

Lando running Knock Off, U-Turn, EQ, Rock Slide
Heatran running Fire Blast (or Lava Plume depending on your team's needs, I usually run the latter), Flash Cannon, Earth Power, and Dark Pulse
 

Estronic

simple geometry
Might as well drop my two cents (with a story time bonus):

Back like about two weeks ago, I've been playing with a team revolving around Aurora Veil majority of the time. I climbed pretty quickly, jumping from unranked to fluxing around the 1400s, but since achieving that, I've been plateauing hard. As much as I like Alolan Ninetales, I thought that it was the problem. So, I switched from it to a dual screens Tapu Koko set, and I finally reached above 1600 for the first time (where then I lost it shortly after but that's not the point). I know that dual screen Tapu Koko is much better than Alolan Ninetales, but is there any reason to run Alolan Ninetales instead, besides if you want to run both on a team?

Despite the great utility Aurora Veil provides, I don't think it's worth running Alolan Ninetales due to its very notable flaws. It's super predictable, as in it'll always run a generic Aurora Veil set and any other set sucks, so it's easy to play around. Its 109 base Speed is good, but they're many other faster Pokemon that have 110 base Speed or running a Choice Scarf that can pressure it on the first turn of the game. Back when I used it, any lead that can run Choice Scarf or was faster in general and had a possible Steel-type move always scared me and forced me to switch, which is unfortunate because my team relied heavily on that extra bulk.

The fact that it requires Hail to set up Aurora Veil is not a problem unless the opponent has any sort of weather setter. Rain isn't too much since you'll be running Freeze Dry to delete Pelipper, but since rain is super popular now it gets annoying. Tyranitar complete ruins the set-up, though, as Sand Stream gets rid of the Hail and would force you to switch with Stone Edge. Although Hail is usually ran for these situations, specifically rain where it can actually work, the mindgames are tough and you can get yourself in a disadvantage if you predict wrongly.

Alolan Ninetales also has trouble against fast leads, especially if they have Taunt like Tapu Koko. However, unlike Tapu Koko, you can run Encore if you like to force the enemy to switch after they use Stealth Rock or something giving yourself a free turn. You can also opt to use Safeguard as well which is very useful against those who abuse status, but you can run Tapu Fini instead for Misty Terrain. Regardless of the mentioned utility, it'll be hard to actually set up them against leads that will threaten it, which they will likely due to its predictability. Tapu Koko, although takes longer to set up screens, is a better screen user than Alolan Ninetales in my opinion since it doesn't have any requirements like weather, has Taunt utility to use with its high Speed, and can run other sets so its more unpredictable.

All I got for now, I'm interested in seeing what you guys think, or even something that shows that Alolan Ninetales isn't completely outclassed by other Pokemon that I completely missed.
 

uwu Sith Lord uwu

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Koko just has a lot more going for it in the screens department. On top of being unfazed by weather to set screens up, Koko also has Roost, Taunt, U-turn, and doesn't take 25% from Stealth Rock. Electric Terrain also gives some niche options such as Electric Seed Hawlucha or strengthening Thunderbolt / Volt Switch for other Pokemon like Magearna. While sleep from Hypnosis has its uses, Alolan Ninetales just relies too much on hail and sometimes match-up specific scenarios. It doesn't really help that it wants a lot more than 4 Moves to help make certain Pokemon matchups less cumbersome such as needing Hail to secure setup.

Overall in terms of screens Koko just does it better and it should be the primary choice. I don't see many niche circumstances for Alolan Tales where I would prefer it except maybe if you feel really frightened by rain for some reason.
 
I am someone who used both playstyles (Screens and Veil) to an extreme amount. The biggest reason is simply Aurora Veil being a one-turn Move. With Tapu Koko you have to think about which of the Screens you want to last longer and how to setup with your mon as safe as possible. In addition to that, the lack of offensive pressure and the necessity to spam Taunt wastes valuable Screen turns. Koko Screens is also not 100% guranteed to work with Defog Scarf Landorus-T being everywhere.

There are other obvious reasons where Ninetales excells at, like Rain Matchup and the ability to check x4 weak Ground types.

Ninetales can also afford to use Safeguard. While Koko also learns Safeguard, it has a hard time finding a spot for it because you two moveslots are already occupied for Screens. Safeguard allows you to setup on mons with Scald, Toxic and lets you ignore Toxic Spikes for a few turns.

And lastly, Ninetales can come in on any atk from Kyurem-B and get it up which is nice for an offensive team.

ps: Do not lead with Ninetales unless it is safe. This is a mistake many beginners make and can make them lose games fast. Try to counterlead counterleads to Ninetales instead or just get up your Rocks asap.
 
Kinda random, but I had a recent run with a sun, fire spam team up to about 1850 on ladder and I think it’s actually quite a viable, though still very niche, playstyle. It’s very good vs popular balances and has an...interesting matchup against that rain team that’s all over high ladder ATM. Contrary to popular belief, I think heat rock Torkoal is the best setter as opposed to Zard y. This opens up space for megas like houndoom and camerupt. The former does STUPID damage under sun and has a nice speed tier, though I think modest might be possible too, in order to nab a ko on chansey. The latter has tremendous synergy with bulu, which is obviously great on its own, but also is crucial ground/water check for these sun teams.

Not a trend or anything, just an observation on something I’ve had success with.

Like wut:
+2 252+ SpA Solar Power Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 594-699 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Hi guys just thought I'd leave a post on mon I've been using over the past week that I think you guys should try. The mon I am talking about is *Shelgon*.

Okay here me out, Shelgon is a mon with decent bulk that gets crazy with eviolite. These high defences make Shelgon able to set up ddance reliably on half the tier (the only mons that it really can't deal with are Tapus and Garchomp). This means that Shelgon will be able to easily tear holes in teams. Also, Shelgon has no rock weakness and only a 2x ice weakness compared to Salamence, making Shelgon a more reliable sweeper.

Hear is my current set:
Shelgon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
You can change Dragon Claw and Zen Headbutt for whatever attacking moves you want. Shelgon also gets Wish and Roar so you can maybe use him on a stall team if you want.
 

Indigo Plateau

adrenaline momentum
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Hi guys just thought I'd leave a post on mon I've been using over the past week that I think you guys should try. The mon I am talking about is *Shelgon*.

Okay here me out, Shelgon is a mon with decent bulk that gets crazy with eviolite. These high defences make Shelgon able to set up ddance reliably on half the tier (the only mons that it really can't deal with are Tapus and Garchomp). This means that Shelgon will be able to easily tear holes in teams. Also, Shelgon has no rock weakness and only a 2x ice weakness compared to Salamence, making Shelgon a more reliable sweeper.

Hear is my current set:
Shelgon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
You can change Dragon Claw and Zen Headbutt for whatever attacking moves you want. Shelgon also gets Wish and Roar so you can maybe use him on a stall team if you want.
Shelgon is completely outclassed and unviable in OU. As far as setup sweepers go, specifically DD, Gyarados, Zygarde, Zard-X, and even Salamence fit the role much better due to their higher base Attack, Speed, abilities, and access to Z-Moves. Not to mention that your specific set loses to basically any form of status or common Pokemon in the metagame, such as Heatran, Tapu Bulu, Magearna, Toxapex and literally anything else that doesn’t care about Dragon/Psychic moves.

I love creative discussion myself, but let’s keep it to Pokemon with an actual (or possible) niche instead of Pokemon like Shelgon
 
On the Charizard Y discussion...

DDZY



Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flamethrower / Heat Wave / Fire Blast, in order of consistency
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance


While Charizard Y is already good in its own right, Dragon Dance allows it to straight up destroy offensive teams. The Speed boost allows Charizard to OHKO natural checks to Y like Greninja, Tapu Koko, Mega Diancie and so forth. The idea of this set is to come in on something that Charizard forces out - particularly Heatran - then set up a dance as your opponent sends in an X counter like Landorus-T (especially scarf), Gastrodon, Tapu Fini etc. Then you use the element of surprise to KO with the appropriate move. Pretty much all Scarf Landos are OHKOed by STAB Flamethrower under the sun + certainly after rocks damage and the three attacks have amazing coverage and high BP as a whole, putting a dent in anything that isn't a Dragon-type or Chansey. More often than not, offensive teams will have a composition with only one physically defensive Pokemon which checks Zard-X, but not Zard-Y, whereas the rest are decimated by Zard-Y's coverage.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-797183982
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-797188119 (Suicune user gets a nasty surprise when he thinks its Zard X)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-797636959
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-797803563 (Zard-Y gets the jump on Tapu Fini who would've otherwise stopped the sweep)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-799275885
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-811525073 (Zard-Y ends a painful game of switching and predicting in the presence of Mega "130 Attack Earthquake for Heatran" Latios by simply dancing once)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-812806025 (Dragon Dance reveal wins the game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-814166546 (Tries to use defensive Zapdos to stop the sweep)
 
Idk if You're worried about +1 base 100's but You might be able to run a special attack boosting nature and really fry the earth of non scarf switch ins
 

MFJK

Footsteps in the mud
is an official Team Rater
Hey guys, with both Snake and OLT being at quite an advanced stage, I figured it would be a perfect time to make a post about some trends and some mons that I find interesting in this meta. In this post, I will mainly focus on pokemons that have been rising in viability, as well as some underrated threats / sets.


I'm starting off with these two Fighting-types which have both been rising in viability and usage over the past few weeks. M-Lopunny especially, has gained a lot of traction since OLT cycles, despite never having really caught off since the start of USM. The months prior to OLT, its usage was at an all-time low because of the dominance of Clef balances which Lopunny could not do much against, which is why it was not considered a valuable mega slot. OLT saw a rise in HO and generally offensive teams against which Lopunny matches up fairly well and it started getting more usage, even after OLT qualifying phase was over. Despite balance still being a valuable playstyle, it still sees less use than some months ago and Lopunny finds more use on teams because of its good matchup against offensive teams and its ability to clean late game + the rise of Modest Zam also helps a bit. There is not much to say about M-Lopunny's moveset since it hasn't really changed.

M-Heracross is a different case from Lop since it has always been an ok mon without really popping up. Although it is not particularly better than in the past, it has still started to get explored a bit more and it finds a place into common bulky offense builds as a way to handle stall which has been on the rise lately, as well as bulky teams in general while still providing some utility in checking Ground-types like Zygarde for example. A combination that has been rising is M-Heracross + Tapu Bulu which allows Hera to run Bullet Seed which is boosted by Grassy Terrain. It allows it to bypass pokemons like Clefable for example. A lot of teams also don't have a really good Fighting-resist and tend to rely on Tornadus-T / Lando which definitely aren't the best switchins to Hera (and Lop too, although it's more manageable), which allows it to put in more work.

There are plenty of examples in Snake and OLT replays of these two mons putting in work. There is this one which shows how dangerous M-Lop can be and this one where M-Hera puts in some work.


With Swords Dance, Tapu Bulu is a very prominent wincon in the tier, both in ladder and tournaments. Bulk Up has also started getting more traction lately as it allows Bulu to set-up more easily on other attack-boosters such as opposing SD Bulu, and pokemons such as Celesteela too. Options like Occa Berry on more offensive SD sets (lures Fire-types like both Zards and Heatran) have been explored too. One set I want to highlight, though, is Choice Band which I believe is a very underrated set:

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

With Bulu mainly running SD or BU, a lot of things like Tornadus-T will tend to directly switch-in on Bulu, making it easy for CB to lure and eliminate those. This is especially useful since a lot of teams rely on the aforementioned Tornadus-T as their main Bulu check, making it even easier for it to put in an amazing amount of work. Banded Wood Hammer hits ridiculously hard and is always able to get some surprise kills and it can recover some hp with Horn Leech. This game from Snake really shows how CB Bulu can get unexpected kills.

Choice Scarf is pretty underrated too. With the speed boost, it outspeeds M-Lopunny and therefore Modest M-Alakazam too. It can be super useful to get some surprise kills against generic offense builds.


These two pokemons have really started getting more and more traction, be it together on a sand team, or separately. Excadrill started getting more usage during OLT qualifying phase as an HO lead but sets like Specially Defensive Spin, Offensive Sand Rush and even Choice Scarf to a lesser extent have really started getting more traction. Bulky Drill finds it way onto bulky offense that need both a hazard remover and a sr setter that can give them a psychic- and electric- types check. It does this job exceptionally well because of how it can easily switch-in on pokemons like Clefable and Tornadus-T and how it can get-up rocks against Stall. It is generally paired with another hazard remover like Fini or Tornadus-T. Choice Scarf Drill does something similar in the sense that it's a spinner that can switch-in on psychic and electric types but while also giving some speed control. Offensive sets are also really common with the recent influx in sand teams that has been noticed in both OLT and Snake. It is simply a fantastic late-game cleaner under sand. Something I like personally is Magnet Rise on it, in order to set-up on stuff like Lando and Gliscor.

Mega Tyranitar has also been getting a lot of usage lately, mainy its Stealth Rock set but even DD can be effective at times. Not much has really changed for Tyranitar, it is simply a fantastic rocker that can threaten stuff like Tornadus-T and offers amazing utility to the bulky offense / balance builds it is in. Something that should be noted is how easy it is to fit sand on classic bulky offense builds because of how splashable Drill and Ttar are together, offering great utility along with a fantastic offensive potential. Even DD has started to be explored a little bit such as in this replay from Snake where you can see it clean. Still heavily match-up dependent but can still be effective.


Lastly, I wanted to talk briefly about this little guy who has also started to get some traction. The rise in bulky offense is not something that necessarily affected it that much because it did not have much trouble against Balance anyways but I think the rise in usage of Excadrill, Tapu Fini, as well as Tornadus-T being good as always, makes hazard removal even easier to fit on teams. This is definitely a factor, along with the utility it provides in checking grass-types like Bulu and Kartana. A lot of people started running Outrage on it which allows it to 2HKO Quagsire and Pyukumuke, therefore making it an effective stall breaker. Zard X also matches up very well against classic bulky offense cores (Tang + Celes, Bulu + Torn-T, etc.). This replay shows how effective it can be against Stall whereas this one (although it was lost) shows how big of a threat it can be to classic bulky offense builds.
 
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Martin

Bodacious
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Hi, so a mon that I used kinda recently which has been really cool to use is this bad boy:


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Healing Wish

Rlly nice mon for role compression on BO; fills the SR slot and does a good job of pissing Lele and Zam the FUCk off while pivoting around and just generally causing massive headaches when paired with stuff like Lando T, Torny-T etc. that can also pivot around. Also Healing Wish is godlike especially alongside a mon like Zard X or Gyarados or w/e else which wants to break early game then clean late game. Sure the psychic meta's dying down a little bit compared to a few weeks ago but it's still a really cool mon regardless that I feel like people have forgotten is an option.
 
I can't believe nobody is talking about the two most powerful forces in the meta: Garchomp and Gliscor. I know that we wanted to avoid this can of worms, but it's time to bring this evil back into the meta.

1540068524619.png

Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw


1540068601562.png

Gliscor @ Iapapa Berry

Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics

- Earthquake

Yes, I'm talking about Sand Veil. As we learned from Doughboy, the loss of perma-sand did not destroy evasion abuse. In fact, it causes the most havoc in the first few turns anyway, since that's when the opponent's Garchomp & Gliscor checks will be sent out (and neutralised). 7 turns via soft sand ttar is plenty.

In case you all forgot, here's the math behind (legal) evasion boosts:
  • With only sand veil active, 100% accurate moves fall to 80% accuracy, the same as hydro pump.
  • Speaking of which, 80% accurate moves (e.g. hydro pump) fall to 64% accuracy, well below focus blast.
  • If we add brightpowder to the mix, those moves fall to a whopping 57% accuracy, which is lower than hypnosis.
  • Lando-t, for example, has a 72% chance to hit garchomp with hp ice. If you sub, that means it has a 72% chance to break the sub.
  • The chance to hit twice in a row (ie break the sub then hit again) is 51%. 3 times in a row is 37%... not a fun time.
  • Add paralysis support (hello glare meta), and it gets even worse. A paralyzed lando t has a 54% chance to hit one hp ice. Torn-t has a 37% chance to hit one hurricane. Not to mention that paralysis support patches up their middling speed stats.
Here are some replays that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Garchomp and Gliscor are not just offensively threatening, but also the sturdiest walls in the entire metagame bar sash lead mimikyu. Note that the team is just a slightly adapted version of doughboy's, so it's outdated af and has no way to handle most of the meta, but it doesn't matter because garchomp and gliscor hard counter every single pokemon.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823211564

Watch in awe as garchomp takes 0% from FOUR +2 garchomp outrages in a row!! It's outrageous. But that's not all, my opponent thinks he can revenge kill with mega alakazam. WRONG. Garchomp easily evades the psychic and KOs in return, continuing his sweep. No para support needed!


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823214376

In the very next game I played, Gliscor got his chance to shine. I got majorly haxed for the first part of the battle. Ttar missed a fire blast, and slowbro got full parad twice by turn 9 :'( But no matter! Gliscor swoops in for the rescue! He send in zygarde, hoping for an easy setup opportunity. Little did he know, I was planning a sweep of my own! I knew there was a good chance that Zygarde had glare (because fuck this meta), but who gives a shit? Gliscor handily avoids the glare and gets in a free swords dance! I kill zygarde & activate my iapapa berry, boosting acrobatics to its full potential. He switches in koko, and sand was gone, so I couldn't risk the hp ice. I sack ttar to set up sand, and he sends in mega scizor. Easy setup opportunity for gliscor! (as is every pokemon tbh) I swords dance and he misses the u-turn. He sends in koko, who then misses hp ice, and I am free to sweep.

Let's recap:
  • Garchomp set up on opposing garchomp by "tanking" 4 consecutive outrages, then he evaded alakazam's psychic to secure his sweep.
  • Gliscor set up on opposing zygarde by evading glare, then set up on mega scizor by evading u-turn, then evaded hp ice from tapu koko to secure his sweep.
  • None of the opposing mons were even paralysed lol
As we can clearly see, these two are unstoppable. They can't be revenge killed. They are immune to all status moves. Haze is the only solution (but lol +2 chomp KOs fini after rocks so good luck with that). Better yet, they can run infinite variations for every situation!

Give garchomp leftovers, dig, z outrage, mud slap, attract, toxic, whirpool, rest, light ball fling, body slam, z sandstorm (+1 speed), dragon tail, focus band, quick claw. Gliscor can carry salac, z sandstorm, ice fang, taunt, mud slap, fling light ball, mimic, torment, attract, roost, knock off, z tailwind. Heck, pair them with tapu bulu and grassy seed.

Unfortunately, you can't run any evasion boosting moves since z-detect is too "uncompetitive" (even though sand veil and brightpowder are perfectly fine fsr), but even mega rayquaza has flaws.

Don't get me started on brightpowder clefable & serperior

Edit: heres ur 1800s replay

Edit: here's a 1900 one but PLOT TWIST they were also running veil chomp and avoided my ice beam. :( sand veil has no loyalty.
 
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I can't believe nobody is talking about the two most powerful forces in the meta: Garchomp and Gliscor. I know that we wanted to avoid this can of worms, but it's time to bring this evil back into the meta.

View attachment 141830
Garchomp @ Bright Powder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw


View attachment 141831
Gliscor @ Iapapa Berry

Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics

- Earthquake

Yes, I'm talking about Sand Veil. As we learned from Doughboy, the loss of perma-sand did not destroy evasion abuse. In fact, it causes the most havoc in the first few turns anyway, since that's when the opponent's Garchomp & Gliscor checks will be sent out (and neutralised). 7 turns via soft sand ttar is plenty.

In case you all forgot, here's the math behind (legal) evasion boosts:
  • With only sand veil active, 100% accurate moves fall to 80% accuracy, the same as hydro pump.
  • Speaking of which, 80% accurate moves (e.g. hydro pump) fall to 64% accuracy, well below focus blast.
  • If we add brightpowder to the mix, those moves fall to a whopping 57% accuracy, which is lower than hypnosis.
  • Lando-t, for example, has a 72% chance to hit garchomp with hp ice. If you sub, that means it has a 72% chance to break the sub.
  • The chance to hit twice in a row (ie break the sub then hit again) is 51%. 3 times in a row is 37%... not a fun time.
  • Add paralysis support (hello glare meta), and it gets even worse. A paralyzed lando t has a 54% chance to hit one hp ice. Torn-t has a 37% chance to hit one hurricane. Not to mention that paralysis support patches up their middling speed stats.
Here are some replays that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Garchomp and Gliscor are not just offensively threatening, but also the sturdiest walls in the entire metagame bar sash lead mimikyu. Note that the team is just a slightly adapted version of doughboy's, so it's outdated af and has no way to handle most of the meta, but it doesn't matter because garchomp and gliscor hard counter every single pokemon.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823211564

Watch in awe as garchomp takes 0% from FOUR +2 garchomp outrages in a row!! It's outrageous. But that's not all, my opponent thinks he can revenge kill with mega alakazam. WRONG. Garchomp easily evades the psychic and KOs in return, continuing his sweep. No para support needed!


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823214376

In the very next game I played, Gliscor got his chance to shine. I got majorly haxed for the first part of the battle. Ttar missed a fire blast, and slowbro got full parad twice by turn 9 :'( But no matter! Gliscor swoops in for the rescue! He send in zygarde, hoping for an easy setup opportunity. Little did he know, I was planning a sweep of my own! I knew there was a good chance that Zygarde had glare (because fuck this meta), but who gives a shit? Gliscor handily avoids the glare and gets in a free swords dance! I kill zygarde & activate my iapapa berry, boosting acrobatics to its full potential. He switches in koko, and sand was gone, so I couldn't risk the hp ice. I sack ttar to set up sand, and he sends in mega scizor. Easy setup opportunity for gliscor! (as is every pokemon tbh) I swords dance and he misses the u-turn. He sends in koko, who then misses hp ice, and I am free to sweep.

Let's recap:
  • Garchomp set up on opposing garchomp by "tanking" 4 consecutive outrages, then he evaded alakazam's psychic to secure his sweep.
  • Gliscor set up on opposing zygarde by evading glare, then set up on mega scizor by evading u-turn, then evaded hp ice from tapu koko to secure his sweep.
  • None of the opposing mons were even paralysed lol
As we can clearly see, these two are unstoppable. They can't be revenge killed. They are immune to all status moves. Haze is the only solution (but lol +2 chomp KOs fini after rocks so good luck with that). Better yet, they can run infinite variations for every situation!

Give garchomp leftovers, dig, z outrage, mud slap, attract, toxic, whirpool, rest, light ball fling, body slam, z sandstorm (+1 speed), dragon tail, focus band, quick claw. Gliscor can carry salac, z sandstorm, ice fang, taunt, mud slap, fling light ball, mimic, torment, attract, roost, knock off, z tailwind. Heck, pair them with tapu bulu and grassy seed.

Unfortunately, you can't run any evasion boosting moves since z-detect is too "uncompetitive" (even though sand veil and brightpowder are perfectly fine fsr), but even mega rayquaza has flaws.

Don't get me started on brightpowder clefable & serperior
While it's hard to argue with any of this because it's mostly just facts and calc, as this is a metagame discussion thread, it feels necessary to point out that these will always be lower ladder strategies that aren't seen in constant play.

Any strategy that relies on RNG isn't going to cut it at higher levels of play. In tournaments, if at any point you lose out on RNG your run is over and at high ladder play you will lose a lot of ELO for a loss compared to what a win would gain.

Also neither of these sets actually have a way to set Sand, so they're already requiring pretty heavy team support, and against Rain(/sun) teams you're of course going to have a bad time. Smooth Rock Ttar is also of course, not good.

Against screens and veil in particular these mons have more turns where they are at the mercy of RNG while you're Defogging/Swords Dancing/Sand Setting. Bulky setup mons, like Acid Reuniclus or Curse Scizor also give these sets trouble as they can keep tanking and recovering until they do get the hits or sand runs out.
 
Yes 3 years ago someone peaked ladder with a more powerful variant of this team that used goth as well. You've only managed to reach 1500 with it currently tho.

I really don't think cheesing your way to the low-mid ladder with a team that's entirely at the mercy of RNGesus qualifies as a metagame trend worth discussing. It would be another story if you had peaked ladder or demonstrated consistent success in some other way, but all you really did was discuss an old team that's not relevant to today's metagame. Not to mention you haxed your opps in more ways than just sand veil in those replays.
 
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