Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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I think if you're going to commit to running a weird set to have a mon 6-0 standard rain you should really commit to having a mon run a weird set to 6-0 standard rain. Guardian of Alola tapu koko is being 2HKoed by gyroball from ferrothorn while failing to 2hko back. Granted your opponent might set hazards assuming you switch out, but it still puts you in gren's shuriken range. Also if you fail to land Guardian of Alola on Ferrothorn you can do literally nothing to it while Focus blast from thundurus still 2HKoes.
Ah crap, I don't know why I thought Guardian did more than 75% ... that's what I get for not staying playing on a consistent basis.
Yeah Guardian + Thunder wouldn't kill it, as I initially assumed it would.
Thanks for the reply, and good points.
 
Let's talk about Rain in Gen 7, a consistent archetype that blends the versatility of Balanced Offense with the brute force of Hyper Offense, all while enabling it's teams to outrun metagame threats like Choice Scarf Kartana and Landorus-T, I don't see this nearly enough on Ladder so I figured I would write up a guide for both newer players and players looking for a new way to play OU.


Let's start with a checklist for building rain:
  • Pelipper-
    Self explanatory, the premier rain setter of this generation, and it doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere anytime soon; generally the first thing you should put in your builder

  • Mega Swampert-
    Another staple of rain, Swampert is the highest ranked rain abuser for a simple reason, in the rain, Mega Swampert cannot be easily outsped, and it has respectable natural bulk, meaning that even if you do manage to outspeed it, you’re most likely not killing it in one hit

  • Steel Type-
    While Steel types generally have higher bulk than the average mon, they certainly don’t turn down the extra survivability being in rain gives them. Take this damage calc for instance:

252 SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Now without rain:
252 SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 264-312 (72.7 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That kind of extra bulk can be the difference between you winning and losing your matches, as after taking said Z-Move, you’ll be able to switch in to tank moves for your less bulky team mates

  • Tornadus-
    The last (in my opinion) strictly required mon for rain, Tornadus is an important tool against harder matchups for rain, notably Ferrothorn (Being able to 2HKO it after chip), Chansey (Threatening Knock Off), and Being able to pressure opposing weather setters like Tyranitar and Hippowdon with All-Out Pummeling and Hurricane respectively while also serving as your Defogger and ground resist, and even if your Z-Move slot is already taken, it can also serve as a Rocky Helmet user to discourage Volt-Turn strategies that attempt to wear down your team

  • Special Rain Abuser-
    A necessary part of any rain team, it’s important to have a balance to your offense to make sure you don’t get walled by mons that are especially bulky on the physical side or vice versa. While I usually give this spot to Kingdra for it’s ability to pressure everything that doesn’t resist it’s water stab, and even deal respectable damage with it’s non STAB moves because of Choice Specs, this role can also go to different mons that hit on the special side, when deciding how to fill this role, I recommend you think about what your team needs in regards to coverage, as this can sometime be the deciding factor in your matches

  • Hazard Setter-
    While rain is a powerful archetype, something it can never overcome is the meta,and at this point in USUM’s lifespan, just about every team has hazards, be it Stealth Rock, Spikes, or even both, and you’re not going to be an exception just because you’re playing the greatest archetype of all time, generally this spot goes to Ferrothorn automatically, since it’s 4x weakness to fire is lessened in the rain and as a check to Ash Greninja, which can gain momentum against rain teams if not properly dealt with, however a substitution of Chesnaught can be made in order to give an opposing Ferrothorn a harder time in the Hazard war, as Chesnaught is immune to Leech Seed and resist both of Ferrothorn’s go to offensive moves, being Gyro Ball and Power Whip. Although you will need to be cautious of a toxic or Thunder Wave, as that can hamper your ability to keep Hazards on the field should you consider to go this route


  • Other Options:
    While the usual formula for Rain is generally standard, players have innovated in the past; using a combination of Tapu Koko and Hawlucha allows the team to easier break past Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, two difficult mons to push past for certain builds. Other Swift Swim users can be used in the place of Kingdra if you believe your team has the tools to fulfill it’s role,and while a very niche role, Klefki has access to a Prankster boosted Rain Dance to supplement Pelippers Drizzle






General Gameplan:
While on the surface Rain may seem like nothing more than “set up rain & try to win”, Rain in reality needs to try just as hard as other archetypes (if not harder, in some cases) in order to win it’s games. Often you’re going to have to play around a specific mon that either gives your sweepers a reason to stay in their balls and never come out (Scarf Kartana, for instance) or can simply stop all your momentum (Ferrothorn, Chansey), so this section will go through the average setup required for a victory.

The Early Game: While you’ll usually lead Pelipper against teams that have Lando, Heatran or any mon that Pelipper doesn’t want to stay in and Scald against, Matchups like lead Ferrothorn or Tapu Koko should be handled differently, generally if your opponents lead mon appears to be Ferrothorn or Tapu Koko (or Smeargle for that matter, although Smeargle doesn’t seem to be as prevalent as of the writing of this guide) leading Tornadus or Swampert to force out problematic leads is always a good option. This phase usually ends after you get up Stealth Rock with Swampert and Rain with Pelipper, to enable you to get early game chip on problematic tanks, or spreading hazard chip with your sweepers.

The Mid Game: This is the portion of the match where you’ll be setting any additional hazards you have where you can, using proper prediction to secure KOs, and setting an endgame for one of your mons; for example, is your opponents Zapdos now down for the count, leaving the opposing team grounded? That’s the ideal endgame for Swampert (with Tornadus assuming your opponent has grass types that can force out Swampert. No water resists left to stop Kingdra from clicking Surf or even (if you’re feeling lucky) Hydro Pump? Send that thing in and get ready to drown your opponent in the raw power of The King.

The EndGame: The endgame is where Rain functions the strongest, your opponents team is weakened, and you’ve exhausted your opponents options to force you out or attempt to wall you, you set up your final wave of Rain, and send in your sweeper one final time to clean up the rest of your competition, by this point you should be aware of your opponents sets, and by extension, his/her potential comeback options, if there’s one thing that never changes with Pokemon, it’s the fact that at any time, your victory could be snatched from you if you don’t respect your opponents options.




Matchups:
As we come to the close of this guide, let’s discuss matchups, required knowledge for any player. I will be breaking this section down by archetypes, specifically Stall, Balanced Offense, and Hyper Offense.


Stall: Stall has always been and always will be the least favorite matchup for a majority of players, due to how time consuming matches can be against smart stall players, and how even bad players can net free wins due to how frustrating the playstyle can be. In my opinion, a smart Rain player will have a positive matchup against a majority of Stall teams if they play smart and safe, making sure to keep their win conditions healthy and pressuring the mons primarily standing in the way of their win condition.The Stall matchup is another reason to have a Steel type on your team, such as magearna, as magearna is able to force out mons like Mega Sableye with the threat of Fleur Cannon and has a variety of sets to help fit onto a number of teams, while acting as a status absorber against more defensive builds.

Problematic Mons:
Chansey
Avalugg
Zapdos
Jirachi

Balanced Offense: Balanced Offense is my favorite matchup to go against when I use Rain, as it’s usually quite enjoyable and demands your best effort to do well in, as dealing with offensive threats while trying to deal with the opposing walls requires both players to be on their toes, usually with Rain as the more aggressive of the two due to its need to keep rain up and get important KOs. Tangrowth is usually the most annoying mon to deal with when it comes to BO, as it can’t be worn down as much as other walls due to regenerator, and your goto way of dealing with it will generally be Tornadus, which can be difficult depending on the presence of Stealth Rock and how well your opponent can predict you. The same can be said for Toxapex, although how annoying it is generally depends on what tools your team have to deal with it, i you have Spikes, you’ll usually be doing enough damage to Pex each time it switches in to one of your moves that eventually it’ll need to Recover, Swampert is also a reliable way to force it out, due to Earthquake, and if you have a Thunder abuser, you’ll generally have a good matchup against Pex depending on its partners.Chansey is the final mon to worry about when against balanced or defensive builds, as Chansey can sit in on a lot of your team while trying to wear them down, I would advise getting up hazards to wear it down and running Knock Off on Tornadus to make it more manageable.

Problematic Mons
:
Tangrowth
Toxapex
Chansey
Other Defensive Stops

Hyper Offense: Hyper Offense is a relatively annoying matchup, depending on what the opposing team uses to enable it’s sweepers, with Webs, getting in Tornadus to Defog is a top priority due to your sweepers enjoying being the fastest mon on the field in Rain. Against Aurora Veil, get ready for some hard times, because just by having access to Freeze Dry, Alolan Ninetales can pose a threat to up to half your team, assuming you’re using the classic core of Pelipper + Mega Swampert + Kingdra, threatening to cut their opportunities to enable your team by wallbreaking or setting rain. Against Ninetales and Friends, your top priority is forcing out Ninetales and getting up rocks in her absence ASAP you’re going to need her low enough to where you can knock her out or bring her to the brink of being KO’d if she switches in to set hail on your sweepers or even Pelipper. Once the enablers are gone, however, you’re free to choose which sweeper you’d like to close out the game with and proceed to deliver a world of hurt on your opponent for daring to bring another type of Weather to your game.The advice for dealing with Ninetales is also a general way of dealing with opposing Weather setters.

Problematic Mons:
Kartana
Ninetales
Smeargle (with Spore)
Tapu Koko (if Specs)
 
Great post! One little thing I'd like to add from experience: most rain teams are completely dismantled by standard ninetales offense. Freeze dry killing swampert and pelipper makes ninetales itself an uncharacteristically potent offensive threat, on top of disrupting rain and setting up screens. Unlike sand, you cant switch pelipper in to change the weather and stop the aurora veil. The move hail makes it so pelipper can't even come in on a revenge or U-turn, since ninetales forces it out and resets the hail. If the veil team is running megazam, those issues are further exacerbated.

Taking care to check veil setup (especially coupled with megazam) during teambuilding will save you infinite headaches on the ladder.
 
I have a question.
Why was Zygarde banned from OU?
With it's 4x ice weakness, it's hardly worth a ban.
Also I feel Black Kyurem is stronger then Zygarde, so I don't understand as to why Zygarde was banned while Black Kyurem is not.
Can someone explain this to me?
 
I have a question.
Why was Zygarde banned from OU?
With it's 4x ice weakness, it's hardly worth a ban.
Also I feel Black Kyurem is stronger then Zygarde, so I don't understand as to why Zygarde was banned while Black Kyurem is not.
Can someone explain this to me?
You’re viewing Zygarde in a vacuum, there are plenty of checks and counters to the ice types in OU (And there aren’t many Ice types to begin with) meanwhile the usual counters to Zygarde such as Tangrowth aren’t able to be consistent counters to it due to the fact that Zygarde can run numerous sets to beat it’s counters while still remaining very effective, due to the fact that it usually only needs Thousand Arrows to terrorize the opposing team. I recommend looking at the Suspect Thread for Zygarde to see more specific examples
 

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I have a question.
Why was Zygarde banned from OU?
With it's 4x ice weakness, it's hardly worth a ban.
Also I feel Black Kyurem is stronger then Zygarde, so I don't understand as to why Zygarde was banned while Black Kyurem is not.
Can someone explain this to me?
I would advise looking at some of the tier council's post in the previous thread, such as this one and this post to get a better idea.

Black Kyurem has a slew of problems, coincidentally its Ice-typing is a mixed bag because it makes it weaker to Stealth Rock and dampens its durability a bit. It also isn't quite as versatile in damage potential as one would hope - while it definitely can strike hard and can overcome some of its checks, it has to make drawbacks in order to do so (i.e. Z Crystal, mixed offense which dampers its durability a bit more). There are also a lot of Pokemon such as Magearna which can comfortably take a hit or two from Kyurem-Black and either set up on it and / or force it out without insane Earth Power rolls.

Having a x4 Ice weakness doesn't really make Zygarde less broken per se, especially since Zygarde can often take a stray Hidden Power Ice and set up further on it while recovering health with a pinch berry or even abuse Weakness Policy for a 2.5x boost in Attack (2 from WP, x1.5 from Dragon Dance).

If you have further questions I would request PMing a council member of the OU team about this.
 
I would advise looking at some of the tier council's post in the previous thread, such as this one and this post to get a better idea.

Black Kyurem has a slew of problems, coincidentally its Ice-typing is a mixed back because it makes it weaker to Stealth Rock and dampens its durability a bit. It also isn't quite as versatile in damage potential as one would hope - while it definitely can strike hard and can overcome some of its checks, it has to make drawbacks in order to do so (i.e. Z Crystal, mixed offense which dampers its durability a bit more). There are also a lot of Pokemon such as Magearna which can comfortably take a hit or two from Kyurem-Black and either set up on it and / or force it out without insane Earth Power rolls.

Having a x4 Ice weakness doesn't really make Zygarde less broken per se, especially since Zygarde can often take a stray Hidden Power Ice and set up further on it while recovering health with a pinch berry or even abuse Weakness Policy for a 2.5x boost in Attack (2 from WP, x1.5 from Dragon Dance).

If you have further questions I would request PMing a council member of the OU team about this.
Ok. I'll try that.
 
Zygarde Bow.png

Speaking of the Zygarde ban, I thought I'd open up some discussion on how the metagame might change and what other people think about this as well as maybe some interesting new sets/mons following its departure.

As for what will get better or gain more usage, rotom-wash, should fit both of those categories although I do think people will continue to run Kartana, Ferrothorn, Serperior and Tapu Bulu. Speaking of Tapu Bulu, the core of it and Mega Heracross (s/o to moondazing) just got much better and should be one of the scariest things to face right now. Grass mons in general have more of an opportunity for increased offensive presence, now that they don't have to be used mainly as a check to Zygarde. I also believe bulk chomp will see more usage as a result of the ban.

As for some new sets/mons, Hydreigon will likely rise in usage. Amoongus and Darmanitan are also definitely cool mons that can make a niche for themselves and I can see Terrakion gaining popularity as well.

Well if anyone has any other thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. How do you think the metagame will change and what cool new sets/mons do you see rising?
 
I think with the Zygarde ban, Tangrowth will drop, and People will use even more Tapu Bulu, as it provides insane role compresion checking Ash Greninja, Lele, Koko, and the myriad of ground types as well, and it has more offensive Power, getting the upperhand there. I can see Celesteela being the premier Ground immunity for balance and stall, as it checks a shit ton of threats right now, and maybe Zapdos will become more common as defoger and ground immunity. This could happen to Tornadus-T as well.

Also, Fire types will become stronger, and things like mega charizard Y, blacephalon and Volcarona could get better in the future, and I think Heatran will be the broken mon of the tier as with the departure of the snake and its resttalk sets, it has no safe switch in.

Result of this, checks to Heatran will rise such as Hydreigon, Mega Latis, both forms of Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados and Keldeo. Maybe we will start to see Shed Shell Toxapex again to combat Heatran. Heatran rising even more, could lean to a decrease of stall and some balances, as Heatran is well known for its ability to dick almost single handledly on both styles.

I pray for the OU metagame and hope it will be more funny and not too much constrained in teambuilding, which will lean to mote diversity in terms of teams and styles.
 
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I may be in the minority, but I think we'll see a rise in usage for the other Steel/Flying type in the tier: Skarmory. With Zygarde gone, ground immunities just became valuable again, and with the rise of Chomp and offensive grass types, Skarmory could easily rise back up in usage on certain builds to check them.

Though ultimately, I don't think Skarmory will stick to being defensive, as with the release of the coveted Custap Berry, Skarmory will take up one of its roles in ORAS and become a solid suicide lead on HO teams, being able to guarantee dual hazards thanks to Sturdy+Custap or even taunt other, slower users.

Speaking of HO, I see many HO builds likely struggling to replace the gaping hole Zygarde's ban has left in their structures. Perhaps Garchomp, which is rising in usage fast, will take its place? Or another bulky set up sweeper perhaps. I'm personally thinking Mega Gyarados, as it will naturally rise in usage due to being a check to the newly empowered Heatran and being able to demolish Celepex cores.
 
Heatran will likely be very frequent at least for a while, since Zygarde was a pretty good answer. Thus, it's likely that Ground-types to take advantage of that will become common, as will Tapu Bulu to aid Heatran.

Celesteela benefits from an increase in Ground-types and Tapu Bulu, but an increase in usage of Fire-types to take advantage of Bulu/Celesteela might also happen.

Look for answers to Heatran, Celesteela, and Tapu Bulu to become more common in general, and thus adaptation to that later on.

I think that Garchomp will absolutely rise in usage, and Mega Garchomp will too. If Keldeo and the Latis rise in usage and offensive Heatran sets (without Toxic) become the standard, Mantine might get a niche again (unlikely but hopeful)!

EDIT: Mega Medicham gets better too I think? It can't switch in easily, but once in, Toxapex/Heatran/Celesteela rely on 50/50's (Baleful Bunker LUL/Protect on SpDef variants/Protect and maybe Sub along with Leech Seed) to survive. Bulu doesn't like eating Ice Punch either.
 
Hasn’t been very long but from what I’ve played, Air Balloon Heatran has become infinitely more valuable. It allows you to potentially switch into and set up Stealth Rock on Landorus or fire off even more Magma Storms to trap/Taunt its counters. Once its balloon is broken (by U-turn) you still have a nearly full health Heatran to use.
 
Of course with the ban a lot of Pokemon previously weak to Zygarde will become more prominent, with this in mind, is using Zygarde 10% a more viable option in OU?

Its Attack stat is the same, and Thousand Arrows is a huge aspect of what made Zygarde so broken. However, the move compression provided by 1kA and bulky stats allowing Zygarde to run so many sets is, as far as I can see, why Zygarde was banned, of course 10% cant run like, Sub+Glare+Coil, but I think if people start using Heatran Air Balloon, Celesteela, Rotom, a lot more, than a Choice Band 10% set could put in a lot of work.
 
Of course with the ban a lot of Pokemon previously weak to Zygarde will become more prominent, with this in mind, is using Zygarde 10% a more viable option in OU?

Its Attack stat is the same, and Thousand Arrows is a huge aspect of what made Zygarde so broken. However, the move compression provided by 1kA and bulky stats allowing Zygarde to run so many sets is, as far as I can see, why Zygarde was banned, of course 10% cant run like, Sub+Glare+Coil, but I think if people start using Heatran Air Balloon, Celesteela, Rotom, a lot more, than a Choice Band 10% set could put in a lot of work.
From what I understand (and take this with a grain of salt, since I'm not super good at OU in general), Zygarde 50 was mostly used for it's solid bulk in combination with Arrows. Even if you got a turn wrong on Zygarde 50, it wasn't a huge momentum sync since it doesn't always have to switch because of it's bulk.

With Zygarde 10, you get one turn wrong and you're losing your doggo. That thing is so frail that it struggles to take even neutral hits, thus often times Zygarde 10 can just get forced out and pressured with hazards. Healing Wish and Defog/Rapid Spin support can only go so far :/

While sure, there's going to be an expected downturn of some bulky grasses like Tangrowth now that you don't need a dedicated Zygarde 50 answer, but I don't think that's enough at all to give Zygarde 10 any impact in this meta at all.
 
With the caveat that everyone is guessing as predicting anything beyond the obvious initial reactions (more heatran, more pex, more celesteela, more rotom-w) is a challenge. I think two somewhat forgotten mons are going to get a lot better/more popular.

Hippowdon: The Hippo was already starting to gain a little steam before the ban as a sand setter and a zygarde counter. While it loses the second niche it is poised to take over from the sand snake as the premier "I need a ground type bulkier than lando-t" in the tier. Also while both forms of garchomp are likely to rise I think sand will continue the nice little rise its been experiencing pre-ban.

Magnezone: The steel killer just lost its worst enemy and biggest competition. Basically every steel type in the tier is poised to get better. The best volt switch blocker in the tier is gone (lando-t aint eating specs flash cannon or corkscrew crash all that well). Magnezone also will strike fear into two cores I expect to rise Cele-Pex and Toxa-thorn.

Of course with the ban a lot of Pokemon previously weak to Zygarde will become more prominent, with this in mind, is using Zygarde 10% a more viable option in OU?

Its Attack stat is the same, and Thousand Arrows is a huge aspect of what made Zygarde so broken. However, the move compression provided by 1kA and bulky stats allowing Zygarde to run so many sets is, as far as I can see, why Zygarde was banned, of course 10% cant run like, Sub+Glare+Coil, but I think if people start using Heatran Air Balloon, Celesteela, Rotom, a lot more, than a Choice Band 10% set could put in a lot of work.
50% had a LOT of checks which is a reason I voted against the ban. Those who voted in favor of the ban mainly did so in part because of the zygarde's insane versatility and the punishing of counters to one set. 10% Has MANY more checks than 50% due to its bulk going from amazing to non-existent. I could see 10% running a band glare set, but I think it will be not nearly as good as 50% due to a difficulty getting into the game and people not fearing any other sets. Zygarde was never blowing people away with its power, more its options and bulk.
 
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I'm loving that I can use non-HP Ice, non-Speedy Zapdos again. Other mons like Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and Magearna are all great to have around again too.

Also, Zy10 is not happening and just is not going to happen because of calcs like these:

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 102-121 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 93-111 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
0 SpA Landorus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 208-248 (83.5 - 99.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 192-228 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 259-306 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With just a tiny amount of chip Zy10 will die to pretty much everything in the game and has none of the cool niches (Volc checking, forcing Ash-Gren to gamble on a HP because bulky sets can eat its other moves, etc). And unlike its bulkier brethren, Zy10 can't affectively abuse Coil, pinch berries, Sub, Camouflage, or a number of other tricks. I see it having maybe one viable set (CB) and even then it won't be very good because of how one-dimensional it is.
 
From what I understand (and take this with a grain of salt, since I'm not super good at OU in general), Zygarde 50 was mostly used for it's solid bulk in combination with Arrows. Even if you got a turn wrong on Zygarde 50, it wasn't a huge momentum sync since it doesn't always have to switch because of it's bulk.

With Zygarde 10, you get one turn wrong and you're losing your doggo. That thing is so frail that it struggles to take even neutral hits, thus often times Zygarde 10 can just get forced out and pressured with hazards. Healing Wish and Defog/Rapid Spin support can only go so far :/

While sure, there's going to be an expected downturn of some bulky grasses like Tangrowth now that you don't need a dedicated Zygarde 50 answer, but I don't think that's enough at all to give Zygarde 10 any impact in this meta at all.
Sure, I'm not saying its gonna be the next S mon, maybe C-, if we are speaking in viability terms.

Also while we are talking about bulk, theres sort of a vacuum for a specially defensive Ground type, things like Heatran and Magnezone really appreciate being able to KO Ground types (bar the mostly suicidal Excadrill) on the switch with Steelium Z (or subbing on the switch). Zygarde was the only one I could think of that could live on the switch, then you're firing off 1k arrows which is 9/10 times gonna hit something hard. Greninja also gets better as it beats every Ground type in the tier, Zygarde had banded extreme speed or specially defensive sets that could beat it in many situations.
 
Yeah Zydog sucks. I had to try really really hard to keep myself from making a delicious C- nom for the past few months (im lowkey p sure theres a half finished zydog nom saved in my drafts in the vr thread), but even I've accepted that it just wasn't viable. Now that zygarde is gone, it's probably worth a C-, but not much higher.

it's hard to understate how shitty its bulk is. For reference, it is less than half as bulky as zygarde. In other words, zydog takes significantly more damage even at +2 defense or behind screens:

0 Atk Meganium Ice Punch vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 124-148 (49.6 - 59.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Meganium Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 156-188 (43.5 - 52.5%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO

Moreover, it barely eclipses zygarde at +2 special defense:

0 SpA Meganium Freeze-Dry vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 120-144 (48 - 57.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Meganium Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 180-216 (50.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

half the reason why zygarde was top-tier in the first place was its bulk. zydog can't take a hit from anything, so ddance and coil are both futile, and choice band sets lose massive utility that the higher speed just doesn't make up for (especially when there are plenty of faster mons and scarfers anyway who can easily 1hko). it's easy to forget that both zygarde forms have a sad 100 base attack and fairly low-bp stabs (except outrage, but that comes with obvious drawbacks); normal zygarde just had the bulk and auxiliary moves to make it work.

Speaking of which, non-adamant unboosted zygarde/dog is weak as fuck and kills nothing (and in zydog's case, it gets 1hkod in return) so you kind of have to run adamant imo to have a real niche. You lose out on that nice 115 speed, yeah, but you just barely outspeed base 100s (and just run glare anyway duh). This is actually a p big deal as can be seen in the following replay (from before zygarde was banned):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-835777036

i had to try extra hard to put zydog in a position to sweep (like pursuiting zygarde/ttar for chip and sacking medicham who would otherwise 1hko everything and ruin the replay oops), but u do what u have to do for man's best friend.

1546562839699.png


anyway, with their zygarde and bulu and ttar weakened and my zydog at full health (bcuz their zygarde espeed would have 1hkod with some chip lmao), zydog was free to sweep in a situation where normal zygarde couldn't because of base 95 speed! Zydog outsped and 1hkod healthy volcarona and lele (which im pretty sure were rolls tbh) and killed the weakened shit for a barkin victory. Note that +spd zydog would have done like 20% to everything then gotten killed lol I tried real hard to snag a decent jolly replay, but they don't exist, because zydog sucks.


tl;dr: I rate Zygarde-10% a K9/10.
 
Is there a reason why no one runs Tapu Koko with a +Atk or +SpAtk nature especially on the Z sets? I know it sounds like a dumb idea but lets just look at what +Spd outruns

394 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
393 / Bisharp, Volcanion / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
391 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +1
388 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +2
385 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 216 / 0
383 / Weavile, / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
381 / Ribombee / 124 / +Spe / 252 / 0
377 / Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / 0
375 / Tornadus-Therian / 121 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Alakazam / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
365 / Tornadus-T / 121 / +Spe / 216 / 0
364 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / +1
361 / Azelf / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
360 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1

Tapu Koko shouldn't really be switching into itself, Bisharp or Weavile. Gyarados and Dragonite almost never run neutral speed. Tornadus is never staying in or switching into Koko. Too many players run Scarf Gren and if he transforms, you won't be outspeeding it even with +Spd nature. You get outsped by mega Zam and regular Alakazam is rare. It sucks you can't outrun Ribombee and Azelf but Azelf is pretty rare too and the boost you get from +Atk nature is totally worth it. Not to metion it can always bluff a +nature since its super uncommon
Just a few Calcs

252+ Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 382-451 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 306-362 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Is there a reason why no one runs Tapu Koko with a +Atk or +SpAtk nature especially on the Z sets? I know it sounds like a dumb idea but lets just look at what +Spd outruns

394 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
393 / Bisharp, Volcanion / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
391 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +1
388 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +2
385 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 216 / 0
383 / Weavile, / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
381 / Ribombee / 124 / +Spe / 252 / 0
377 / Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / 0
375 / Tornadus-Therian / 121 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Alakazam / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
365 / Tornadus-T / 121 / +Spe / 216 / 0
364 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / +1
361 / Azelf / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
360 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1

Tapu Koko shouldn't really be switching into itself, Bisharp or Weavile. Gyarados and Dragonite almost never run neutral speed. Tornadus is never staying in or switching into Koko. Too many players run Scarf Gren and if he transforms, you won't be outspeeding it even with +Spd nature. You get outsped by mega Zam and regular Alakazam is rare. It sucks you can't outrun Ribombee and Azelf but Azelf is pretty rare too and the boost you get from +Atk nature is totally worth it. Not to metion it can always bluff a +nature since its super uncommon
Just a few Calcs

252+ Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 382-451 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 306-362 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You won't be switching into stuff like weavile,gren but koko can revenge kill a lot of frail and fast mons also most dnite sets run adamant and ive seen people use adamant gyarados too.Koko is a great mon because of its speed tier its attack and spa aren't all that good.Outspeeding torn and gren is really important because those 2 are really common rn
 
I've noticed that both Mega Charziards are much better in this meta. Toxapex is becoming rarer as it only fits on stall teams, while Steel types are becoming more common due to Zygarde's ban, which of course get obliterated by both Zard's (Heatran can't stomach Earthquake or Focus Blast). Tapu Bulu pairs up well with both of them, as it appreciates their ability to break through stuff like Magearna, Celesteela and Skarmory. Overall, despite being against the Zygarde ban personally, I am enjoying this new meta.
 

talah

Blue Don't Make Me Cry
is a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Toxapex is becoming rarer as it only fits on stall teams
:pikuh:

toxapex has gotten better if anything and it certainly doesn't just fit only on stall, considering it's most used by far in balance and occassionally BO.

the zygarde ban itself helps both zards but some rly good checks also get better, namely garchomp(and toxapex!!), while the easiest grass to abuse(tangrowth) is gonna see a decrease in usage.

idk if they'll get better a whole lot but it's too early to say regardless.
 

Colonel M

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Is there a reason why no one runs Tapu Koko with a +Atk or +SpAtk nature especially on the Z sets? I know it sounds like a dumb idea but lets just look at what +Spd outruns

394 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
393 / Bisharp, Volcanion / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
391 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +1
388 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +2
385 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 216 / 0
383 / Weavile, / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
381 / Ribombee / 124 / +Spe / 252 / 0
377 / Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / 0
375 / Tornadus-Therian / 121 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Alakazam / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
365 / Tornadus-T / 121 / +Spe / 216 / 0
364 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / +1
361 / Azelf / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
360 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1

Tapu Koko shouldn't really be switching into itself, Bisharp or Weavile. Gyarados and Dragonite almost never run neutral speed. Tornadus is never staying in or switching into Koko. Too many players run Scarf Gren and if he transforms, you won't be outspeeding it even with +Spd nature. You get outsped by mega Zam and regular Alakazam is rare. It sucks you can't outrun Ribombee and Azelf but Azelf is pretty rare too and the boost you get from +Atk nature is totally worth it. Not to metion it can always bluff a +nature since its super uncommon
Just a few Calcs

252+ Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 382-451 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 306-362 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Like others have said even though Koko won't always switch into some of these Pokemon being able to keep pressure on things is important.

Tornadus-T alone is a big one to outspend, and Koko is also nice that it will usually check the majority of the sets (only being annoyed by Knock Off and Hurricane's chance of confusion). Since some sets pack Roost the damage taken can be negligible. Even if Greninja can transform to Ash or can be Scarf, Koko can still outspeed Greninja prior to transformation (or if it's suicide lead). Provided that you can keep the momentum and prevent it from transforming makes handling Greninja a lot easier. While assuming the worst case scenario (Greninja becoming Ash) isn't a bad thing, consider that there are times Greninja can't always transform in a matchup and failing to outspeed gives you as the player less options to continue preventing the transformation (or just flat out KOing it).

In my opinion the gamble for more power simply isn't worth the Speed loss.
 
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