Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
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Fair enough, I understand your reasoning not to reveal. Here is what I came up with:

Rotom-Wash @ Electrium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 HP / 108 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
- Will-O-Wisp

192 HP allows you to live +2 Return from Pinsir, one Lopunny HJK, or one Specs Gren Dark Pulse 100% of the time after rocks and minimizes SR damage.
108 SAtk gives the calcs you mentioned.
188 speed gives you enough to hit 255 and outspeed Modest Tran + 192 Speed Tapu Fini.

I threw the rest of the EVs in speed but feel free to set your own creep number. 208 creeps past 252+ base 80s (Mamoswine).
 
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I've found Thundurus-T really interesting in the post Zygarde ban meta.


Thundurus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Focus Blast

There are two main issues that have been alleviated for Thundurus-T since the Zygarde ban. Firstly, Thundy-T no longer fears Thousand Arrows so now it is genuinely immune to ground attacks. This means it no longer has to stop its sweep prematurely - or not get to do anything at all - since Thundy-T feared specially defensive/yache variants which could tank a HP Ice and DD variants who could outspeed and OHKO with TA. Zygarde also caused people to run more grass types, which HP Ice Thundy-T struggled to break, which made it a niche pick at best. Secondly Zygardes presence made HP Ice mandatory on any set, and while it is good for other ground types it can't OHKO bulky grasses like AV Tangrowth meaning it would have to tank a hit which it doesn't like to do with its subpar bulk. But with Zygarde's absence Thundy-T can now forgo HP Ice for HP Flying. A strange choice yes but let me explain. HP Flying compresses what HP Ice and Sludge Wave hits into one moveslot freeing you up for Focus Blast. At +2 HP Flying OHKO's AV Tangrowth after rocks along with defensive Lando-T. This Moveset allows it to completely dismantly common defensive cores. After just one set up and with rocks you KO Tangrowth, Lando, Ferro, Heatran, Pex, Steela, Scizor, defensive Rotom-W, Zapdos, Bulu, Clef etc... You even 2HKO Chansey. This ability is what gives it a nice over other offensive electrics as a wall breaker.
Thundy-T's typing allows it to consistently get chances to set up and take hits from common defensive Mon's like Zap, Steela, Sciz and force out the likes of Pex meaning it is never dead weight in any given game.
I also want to address what puts people off using Thundy-T the most, it's speed. At 101 BST it's not slow, however it's out sped by many top tier threats, notably Greninja. You definitely need to either eliminate faster mons or play more conservatively. But like all fast, frail attackers, faster mons are troublesome. This isn't a massive issue as the meta had got generally slower and scarfers are a lot less common but it's something to be weary of for sure.
As far as team support goes, it works very will with scarf Lele, as it takes care of a large chunk of faster mons that threaten it. Rocks is mandatory as it nets important KO's. I've also had success with wish-passers (notably body slam Jirachi) who allow multiple set-ups per much. Glare Serp/webs always help.
Overall Thundy-T is an interesting anti-meta mon that can destroy common defensive cores with nasty plot. It can act as a wall breaker, or if faster mons are removed, a sweeper. Whilst slow for a sweeper it out speeds non-scarf Lando, Lele, both Zards, Mega-Medi and more. Whilst the set seems a little odd, please test it out before judging because it's scary at how few defensive answers there are to it.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 333-394 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 398-471 (98.7 - 116.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 468-551 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 226-266 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 452-534 (118 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 391-461 (128.6 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Imo Thundy's frail enough as it is without taking LO recoil. Run Fightinium-Z so you don't have to punch a hole in your monitor every time Focus Blast misses when you really needed to hit Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Chansey, or Heatran. At like +4 you get a guaranteed KO against Chansey with Fight-Z, which isn't true of LO - it's like 30% IF you hit. Same with SpDef Tran or chipped Ferro. The biggest thing is that Fight-Z lets you hit hard against targets like these from neutral and guarantee KO's. That and chip - everything Thundy kills can hurt it, and it's weak enough with losing 10% for each time an opponent tries to scout it.
 
Imo Thundy's frail enough as it is without taking LO recoil. Run Fightinium-Z so you don't have to punch a hole in your monitor every time Focus Blast misses when you really needed to hit Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Chansey, or Heatran. At like +4 you get a guaranteed KO against Chansey with Fight-Z, which isn't true of LO - it's like 30% IF you hit. Same with SpDef Tran or chipped Ferro. The biggest thing is that Fight-Z lets you hit hard against targets like these from neutral and guarantee KO's. That and chip - everything Thundy kills can hurt it, and it's weak enough with losing 10% for each time an opponent tries to scout it.
You're right, LO recoil sucks and between that, the damage you take whilst setting up etc racks up so depending on how you play you're generally netting between 2-3 KO's. However the issue with Fight-Z is that you miss out on the OHKO on Growth and Lando and you hit for noticeably less. Focus-Miss is always a risk but you're rewarded with that LO boost.
I think it really depends on preference and I really didn't explain why I prefer LO; essentially it provides more immediate power so you can better break your opponents defensive core for your sweeper. Essentially you're coming in, setting up, killing something and getting out as quickly as possible, taking as little damage as possible, whereas with Fight-Z you're more likely to 2HKO defensive mons instead of OHKO or have to set up to +4 so you're taking more hits. I may be overselling LO a bit but both work pretty well, especially since the Zygarde ban, and Fight-Z is preferred if your team struggles with Chansey, Ttar and steels whilst LO help more with Lando/Growth and other grasses.
 
Thoughts on Bronzong after the ban? I think he's a really good option against the Lele/Mega Zam core
I think that you should use Jirachi instead.
I agree here as Jirachi brings more to the table. It, like Bronzong, can get rocks up and switch on both of these. However, Jirachi does alot more. Wish passing, U-turn support, cheesy flinches, and great coverage as well. The only way I would ever consider Bronzong over Rachi is if I was running Trick room and I had nothing better.
 
I agree here as Jirachi brings more to the table. It, like Bronzong, can get rocks up and switch on both of these. However, Jirachi does alot more. Wish passing, U-turn support, cheesy flinches, and great coverage as well. The only way I would ever consider Bronzong over Rachi is if I was running Trick room and I had nothing better.
I feel Bronzong does better as a stealth rock lead though since it has a better match up against Landorus
 
I feel Bronzong does better as a stealth rock lead though since it has a better match up against Landorus
As I previously stated, and I'll state it once more, Bronzong is only plausable on Trick Room. Also, you shouldnt be leading with your rocker every game anyways, unless you're running trick room. Leads should be decided upon depending on the game. For example, if my opponent is running lead spikes Greninja, it'd be a terrible idea to lead with my stealth rock Landorus. And thats only talking about rocks. Going back to my main point, I'll summarize this subject with this nice little pictograph:

>
no matter what. (unless Trick Room and Bron is barely viable there too so)

If you have anymore questions, catch me on Showdown (username: Sickist) or just PM me on my profile. Have a good day.
 
As I previously stated, and I'll state it once more, Bronzong is only plausable on Trick Room. Also, you shouldnt be leading with your rocker every game anyways, unless you're running trick room. Leads should be decided upon depending on the game. For example, if my opponent is running lead spikes Greninja, it'd be a terrible idea to lead with my stealth rock Landorus. And thats only talking about rocks. Going back to my main point, I'll summarize this subject with this nice little pictograph:

>
no matter what. (unless Trick Room and Bron is barely viable there too so)

If you have anymore questions, catch me on Showdown (username: Sickist) or just PM me on my profile. Have a good day.
You don't have to respond to this if you don't want to but all I was pointing out is that I feel that there are things that Bronzong can do better than Jirachi can. One of them being able to switch into Landorus and non mold breaker Ground type moves. A viable option when you're team already has too many ground type weaknesses
 
You don't have to respond to this if you don't want to but all I was pointing out is that I feel that there are things that Bronzong can do better than Jirachi can. One of them being able to switch into Landorus and non mold breaker Ground type moves. A viable option when you're team already has too many ground type weaknesses
I will respond because this is an issue that needs addressed.

1. Bronzong is not viable in the OU metagame. No matter what niche you think it may have, its outclassed. This is the same way with many pokemon, and Bronzong is no different.

2. If you have a ground problem, add a Grass such as Bulu or Tangrowth. These actually add to your teambuilding as they can give you defensive backbones or a way to deal with fat waters.

3. You shouldn't be switching in any steel, no matter what ability it is or typing or whatever, into a Landorus until you know it's set. Rockium will blow back Cele and Skarm as well as Zapdos. Smack Down is rare, but just eliminates any Levitate or Flying type. Obviously EQ finishes the job. Now obviously, if it's defensive or scarfed, then stuff like Celesteela and Skarmory are probably safe switchins, but otherwise, yea. This point is kinda off-topic, but I feel this should be covered just in case.

This should summarize all of your points, just tell me if I missed anything and I'll address it. Have a good day.
 
I will respond because this is an issue that needs addressed.

1. Bronzong is not viable in the OU metagame. No matter what niche you think it may have, its outclassed. This is the same way with many pokemon, and Bronzong is no different.

2. If you have a ground problem, add a Grass such as Bulu or Tangrowth. These actually add to your teambuilding as they can give you defensive backbones or a way to deal with fat waters.

3. You shouldn't be switching in any steel, no matter what ability it is or typing or whatever, into a Landorus until you know it's set. Rockium will blow back Cele and Skarm as well as Zapdos. Smack Down is rare, but just eliminates any Levitate or Flying type. Obviously EQ finishes the job. Now obviously, if it's defensive or scarfed, then stuff like Celesteela and Skarmory are probably safe switchins, but otherwise, yea. This point is kinda off-topic, but I feel this should be covered just in case.

This should summarize all of your points, just tell me if I missed anything and I'll address it. Have a good day.
I guess we can just agree to disagree since you probably wont change my mind and I won't be changing yours. Thanks for replying though. The more I look into this Poke, the more he seems like a viable option over Jirachi in certain sets since he also has winning match ups against Garchomp and Glisscor
 
I guess we can just agree to disagree since you probably wont change my mind and I won't be changing yours. Thanks for replying though. The more I look into this Poke, the more he seems like a viable option over Jirachi in certain sets since he also has winning match ups against Garchomp and Glisscor
OK here's my thoughts on why Bronzong is barely viable:

I fell asleep typing this.
1. It has no reliable recovery
Jirachi's main niche, when I consider using it on a team, is a WishPasser that doesn't get blown away by Psychic- and Fairy-types. It can reliably scout for moves with Protect, and doesn't lose me a lot of momentum after using Wish, as it can U-turn out. Bronzong, in the other hand, has no reliable recovery aside from Leftovers, meaning it can't reliably check Psychic- and Fairy-types.

2. It is passive/has no offensive presence
Toxapex is passive as well. Why is it ranked so high? Basically because of its better bulk, superior typing, amazing ability, and reliable recovery. Bronzong heavily relies on Toxic and Gyro Ball to do any sort of damage, i.e. You get walled by Heatran. Aside from that, it invites in plenty of top-tier threats in, like Ash-Greninja and Mega Mawile. Sure, you can say they threaten Jirachi too, but they all fear being crippled by Body Slam paralysis or getting U-turned on.

3. Why are you using Bronzong to check Ground-types?
You say it has winning matchups against Garchomp and Gliscor. Probably Garchomp only, since it doesn't bring anything to hit Bronzong super effectively unless it's Fire Fang Mega Garchomp. Landorus-T is bringing stuff like Smack Down, Knock Off, or even Gravity to improve matchup against Celesteela or Zapdos, which have become more common since the Zygarde ban (or at least for me). Bronzong also doesn't beat Gliscor, no matter its set. Stallbreaker sets can Taunt you and use Knock Off, rendering Bronzong with no recovery; SD sets use you as setup fodder and beat you 1v1 with Facade or Knock Off (unless they're EQ+Ice Fang). If you really wanted a better matchup against these I'd just go with Celesteela or a Grass-type, which, in addition to being more viable, isn't weak to Pursuit trapping.

4. It's outclassed in practically every way
As a special wall, it's outclassed by Jirachi, Heatran, and Celesteela, which all have better utility. As a trick room setter, it's outclassed by Cresselia, which has better bulk, Moonlight, and support with Lunar Dance; Uxie, which can use U-turn or Memento after Trick Room and Stealth Rock to pivot out; and Magearna, which has decent bulk, a better defensive typing, more offensive presence, and a great movepool to back it up.

tl;dr While I think Bronzong is a Steel-type that can compress several roles, its lack of reliable recovery, vulnerability to Knock Off, and being heavily outclassed by a majority of other Steel-types makes it a very niche and would be my last choice for consideration when teambuilding.
 

Colonel M

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Oh boy, well then...

The biggest issues with Bronzong is that it's what I like to call a "do nothing" Pokemon. Bronzong can lay Stealth Rock, but its niches otherwise are limited. While it has nice resistances and immunities, it doesn't really do anything back that's very threatening to the opponent. In Gen 4 it had momentum with Explosion and could set up Trick Room. Ever since it's been a Pokemon that's been rarely used. One of the bigger issues is that it's easy to wear down which makes it a shaky check to what it needs to check. While Jirachi has a Ground weakness, it also has strengths in being able to recover with Wish, also lay Stealth Rock if wanted, U-turn for keeping momentum, or using Healing Wish to give a sweeper such as Mega Medicham or Ash Greninja a second chance at fighting.

Kind of like what I hinted way back with Salamence, when you're severely outclassed and don't have very desirable niches you just take up precious space in a team. Bronzong does that, but arguably worse.
 

Adri

formerly Adri989898
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Well... It's one of the best Heatran Switch-ins -if not the best actually-, it can heal, it beats pretty much any "passive" mon 1 on 1 (it will beat Clefable/Ferrothorn/Toxapex, etc)... They don't have that much in common to be honest -aside from their typing of course-. Lando can perform a large variety of roles, but being a "good" defoger coming several times on defensive mons is not something landorus-t can really do.
 

Colonel M

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I've been seeing a bit more Gliscor recently. What does Gliscor do for a team that Lando doesn't do better?
Adri989898 covered quite a bit of it, but there's quite a few things Gliscor can do since it's able to use Roost and Poison Heal to keep itself healthy. Running bulkier setup sweeper sets, Defog, it can also lay Stealth Rock. Lando-T has a few big perks in just having good compression and access to SD Z Moves and using Scarf effectively.
 
I tried a Agility SD Gliscor(Double Dance) on Ladder and surprisingly, it is very effective as a weaker, but more resilient Lando-T simply because it is immune to status. It also nice having Earthquake/Facade coverage in OU. However, I think it only works so swell because it is unknown: Setting up SD and especially Agility late-game is very satisfying.
Special Note: This particular Gliscor enjoys any team member which dismantels Steel/Flying in OU(Hello, Magnezone) and Chip Damage
 
to specify to some of the replies i've gotten over my statement:
while i concur that mawile and cham are still the threats they've always been the difference between them and Zygarde is that aside from one of two moves switching the options to deal with them have always remained somewhat static. unless you face something niche like, fuck, idk, some scizor like defense EV SD mawile set (think back to specially defensive Scizor in bw) or bulk up drain punch medicham they usually have stuff that can either revenge the two of them or outspeed and smash them with some sort of high power move (bad examples but for medicham i always think of shit like Tornadus to kill it and for mega mawile scarfed heatran) so whenever i have built teams i always have something in the back of my head to at least smack those two mons in their respective titties.

with zygarde whenever i saw it on the ladder as i built anything that wasnt, idk, hazards +roar or fat stall cores i always felt obligated to run some dumpster fire moves to attempt to slap it on the wrist with whatever dumb set it would get. the thing about the mon is that i never felt that it was a "OH SHIT ITS ON THE FIELD" threat like gen 5 garchomp but moreso that if i didnt heavily scout the set before i sent in checks i'd probably just autolose since it can run anything for the situation, and most situations point to it dumpstering balance.

with it gone the hole it leaves in the metagame will be patched up by really fat mons or specialised teams optimised to deal with the "new" threats and as people have previously mentioned mons like Skarmory are picking up pace since they arent exactly petrified of getting thousand arrowed to death against a mon with an effective "fuck you skarmbliss" moveset for any scenario.

YO SHIT WILL WE BE SEEING FAT TEAMS WITH CURSE SWEEPERS MORE AND MORE? GOING TO TRY OUT CURSE MEGA AGGRON AGAIN SINCE THAT THING REFUSES TO DIE TO ANYTHING IN THE SAME WAY AS NECROZMA DUSKMANE DENIES DEATH IN UBERS. MORE TO COME FROM THA GREATEST PLAYER EVER MADE :smogthink::smogthink::smogthink:
 
I think that you should use Jirachi instead.
Ummmmm???

Are you sure? Because if u actually look at the stats, Jirachi really can't do too much.

in past generations, Jirachi's offensive presence was much more of a widely proported functional force to be forcing but nowawadys in the current metagame (meta), i would say its quite much the opposite. Bronzong can be much better utilized (used) in stall and balanced teams.... yes? (yes)
 

Martin

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Ummmmm???

Are you sure? Because if u actually look at the stats, Jirachi really can't do too much.

in past generations, Jirachi's offensive presence was much more of a widely proported functional force to be forcing but nowawadys in the current metagame (meta), i would say its quite much the opposite. Bronzong can be much better utilized (used) in stall and balanced teams.... yes? (yes)
Jirachi offers way more of value to stall teams by courtesy of its access to Wish and U-turn, which are much more useful assets than a ground immunity with no recovery due to the fact that it can support teammates easily, heal itself without relying on other teammates to repeatedly check stuff like lele/kyub/whatever and because it can actually escape from Magnezone, which is really useful for not being walked over by stuff like Lele+Zone or w/e.
 
Ummmmm???

Are you sure? Because if u actually look at the stats, Jirachi really can't do too much.

in past generations, Jirachi's offensive presence was much more of a widely proported functional force to be forcing but nowawadys in the current metagame (meta), i would say its quite much the opposite. Bronzong can be much better utilized (used) in stall and balanced teams.... yes? (yes)
Jirachi has Wish, U-Turn, and Healing Wish, in addition to a ludicrously good ability that gives its Body Slam a very high chance to paralyze everything but Ghost and Electric types and its Iron Head a very high chance to flinch.

Bronzong isn't necessarily bad... in lower tiers. But having access to reliable recovery plus awesome bulk and a fantastic ability makes Jirachi straight-up better than Bronzong in this tier.
 
Stop discussing Bronzong != post your final thoughts on bronzong
its absolutely EXCELLENT with gliscor: this can not be understated. i cant really explain it but just dump hidden power ice on it with your own gliscor stall and it will probably fuck some shit up somehow, very passive mon so it cant be willy nilly slapped on your team and you need to think about it like some sort of early to late game playmaker member of your team but when its there it absolutely shines at what it does so if you want to use it in ou, from memory it works with gliscor really well just my take though

been fucking around with trick room theory + practice games as of late and the issue with it is an old problem: the fat mons in ou are so fucking slow they end up outspeeding trick room without even trying to sink their speed. its a part of the game and it is fun being the guy facing trick room and suddenly having your ferrothorn speedseed the opposing heatran but when you're actually using trick room it just feels sortof frustrating. magearna benefits, as expected, a lot from the zygarde ban and theres a lot of theory crafting to be done with trick room TB that hasnt been explored as of late but at this very moment in time i'd say that it is very clunky. it might just be me having bad experiences so take this with a grain of salt.

and to further the discussion: anyone having success with trick room as of late? i feel with the speed heavy Koko spastically smashing the tier in half i feel that it has brought forth a speed focused metagame like we saw in mid DPP and thus trick room carries with it some massive potential but the team synergy just isnt there yet to justify the absurd benefits that might come with it.
 
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