Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Leo]

Welp. Araquanid still didn't get a rise. So I guess I'll just keep adding onto my prior arguments for it to go to B-.

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Once again, Araquanid is the best Webs setter that the playstyle has ever had. And Webs is back to being a pretty decent playstyle as evidenced by raises to decent Webs mons this time around (Bisharp, Kartana) and the discussion of another (M-Pinsir).

However, unlike past Webs setters, Araquanid actually supports its team in ways beyond simply setting Webs. Here are mons that Araquanid's bulk and typing help to check for common Webs mons:

Heatran
Blacephalon
Lando-T lacking Stone Edge
Zard-Y
Excadrill (extra nice given it's a Spinner)
Keldeo
Mega Swampert
M-Scizor
Gliscor (especially nice given how prevalent of a Defogger it is)
Infernape (if anyone still uses it)
Greninja

That is a pretty strong list. And checking these mons creates support for all manner of Webs teammates including Bisharp, M-Mawile, Jirachi, Kartana, A-Maro, Blacephalon, Victini, M-Medi, M-Pinsir, Tapu Bulu, etc. So not only can it set Webs for these mons, it can take hits and eliminate checks to your Webs win-cons. Something past Webs setters rarely, if ever, could do

And you can add onto the list of things it kills when you add in the prospect of Mirror Coat. Because of Araquanid's great bulk, it can lure in its own checks, soak up insanely hard hitting attacks, and fry them with Mirror Coat. "But BeardyBennett," you may be saying, "how hard of hits can this thing really live and Mirror Coat on?"

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Araquanid in Electric Terrain: 320-378 (94.3 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

So it actually does have a chance to live a Specs Koko Tbolt in Terrain. That's not even accounting for if you opt to run Sash on your Araquanid. So while Mirror Coat seems like a niche option to run, it is actually surprisingly viable and can wipe out major offensive mons on the opposing squad.

So once again, Araquanid seriously deserves a rise from C+ to B-. It is the best Webs setter, and it can support its team in so many ways beyond simply setting Webs. With Webs teammates rising, it's time for the greatest Webs setter to rise as well.

I don't think Araquanid should rise anytime soon and while it's arguably the best webs setter as you mention, your arguments give me the impression that you're misunderstanding some things about it. First you mention the recent rise of some webs abusers in Bisharp and Kartana, which I think is a terrible argument in favor of an Araquanid rise because none of those rises happened because of them being used on webs but rather because Kart is one of the most consistent breakers in the tier and Bisharp is an overlooked threat not necessarily on webs. These rises don't indicate a rise in webs' viability so there's no point in using them as arguments. Next, I don't think the fact that Araquanid can check a bunch of threats really helps it as a suicide lead. Most of the time you're sacrificing Araquanid turn 1 to get webs unless your opponent tries to set up on it so Araquanid won't have enough HP to take any hit. It would only be useful if it helped it set up webs somehow but I doubt anyone would lead something Araquanid checks when it's always going to be lead. Also while Mirror Coat is a nice tech if you want to eliminate something like Koko early game, it usually means that you're not getting webs because Araquanid is too slow to set them up at 1HP not to mention that it having a chance to live a Koko tbolt with max spd Calm is irrelevant because it needs the atk investment and it lives regardless because of the sash. I think Araquanid's placement in the vr should reflect the viability of webs as a playstyle because it is only used as a suicide lead there and depends on the archetype being effective to be relevant and I don't think webs got any better with Araquanid's addition so it should stay in C+ alongside Shuckle, which was ranked for the same reason in SM.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

This nomination was on the Ranking Update. I'll just put my opinion on it.

Weavile B+ -> A- On the fence

Idk about this one. He does have a good standing against some new top tier threats, such as being able to revenge kill Zygarde, even after a dragon dance. With all the defoggers in the tier, it becomes easier to clear the field of entry hazards, further supporting Weavile. However, idk if these changes are important enough to warrant a rise on Weavile's part. What do u guys believe?
(btw I probably didn't get everything for Weavile but whatever)

 

[ZiodyneDX]

Arquanid should rise to B- to being the meta best Web setter .Magnezone is also looking strong enough for a rise

Speaking also of Magnezone can both work really well toghether as a support core.

Magnezone can get a lot of benefit from Web's, potentially not neeeding to run Scarf to trap and/or revenge kill Kartana, Bisharp and Heatran, at still move first. Or still outspeeding Kartana of both of them have scarfs.

Also Arquanid and Zone can both covet each others type weakness as well as scare out many of thier respective checks, givng them more openings to switch in and to serve thier roles

Then again you can say Aruqanid can be a great friend to almost all steel types in the current OU meta

 

[Scuba Diver]

Arquanid should rise to B- to being the meta best Web setter .Magnezone is also looking strong enough for a rise

Speaking also of Magnezone can both work really well toghether as a support core.

Magnezone can get a lot of benefit from Web's, potentially not neeeding to run Scarf to trap and/or revenge kill Kartana, Bisharp and Heatran, at still move first. Or still outspeeding Kartana of both of them have scarfs.

Also Arquanid and Zone can both covet each others type weakness as well as scare out many of thier respective checks, givng them more openings to switch in and to serve thier roles

Then again you can say Aruqanid can be a great friend to almost all steel types in the current OU meta

I disagree with a Araquanid rise. I think it hasn't really improved the webs archtype in a major way over shuckle (which I personally beleive to be a better lead because of encore). As Leo said above, its "bulk" and power are irrelevant because you're going to have to pick attacking or getting up webs. It's easier than ever to get rid of webs between all the new defoggers, I just don't think Araquanid brings enough to the table to stand among the B-tier mons (which require less team support than Arquanid does).

The entire VR looks about right other than a Hawlucha rise to A- atm. I think the only major area to clean up would be all the unviable megas in the C rank (Altaria / Gallade / Garchomp / Sharpedo / Slowbro).

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

Nice to see Tyranitar on the rise. It is actually a solid Pursuit pokemon ( even though it is super weak to fighting ) and I feel like it can be a solid check to the popular Tapu Lele. I doubt it will rise to S though. Anyone have better information about this than I do? Toxapex should stay in S for now.

 

[Finchinator]

Nice to see Tyranitar on the rise. It is actually a solid Pursuit pokemon ( even though it is super weak to fighting ) and I feel like it can be a solid check to the popular Tapu Lele. I doubt it will rise to S though. Anyone have better information about this than I do? Toxapex should stay in S for now.

Tyranitar will be staying A+ for the time being in all likelihood. It is a great addition to the tier thanks to Pursuit and Sand Stream support letting it take advantage of insane special bulk and attacking prowess, but it does not define the tier to the extent of Landorus-T or Toxapex. It is a pretty stable, middle-of-the-road member of the A+ sub-rank currently, in my opinion.

 

[JamesBones]

I disagree with a Araquanid rise. I think it hasn't really improved the webs archtype in a major way over shuckle (which I personally beleive to be a better lead because of encore). As Leo said above, its "bulk" and power are irrelevant because you're going to have to pick attacking or getting up webs. It's easier than ever to get rid of webs between all the new defoggers, I just don't think Araquanid brings enough to the table to stand among the B-tier mons (which require less team support than Arquanid does).

In my opinion Araquanid should be B-. The thing is, it doesn't actually need to be in a dedicated Webs Team to be useful. You can run it on Offense or even Balance without compromising your Team to much, as it can usually carry its weight. Its a decent Stallbreaker, but its also amazing against Offense, because you can get up Webs and make most faster Mons pretty much useless. I have used a 252+ Atk Set with Splash Plate, which gets nearly all important OHKO's /2HKO's, and it works really well. Some Calcs:

252+ Atk Splash Plate Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Splash Plate Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 152-180 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Splash Plate Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega in Rain: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Splash Plate Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard in Sun: 300-352 (101 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Splash Plate Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 206-246 (57.5 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even Ferrothorn and Toxapex, its most common switch-ins, can only slowly whittle it down and have to be careful of Magic Guard and Webs.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I disagree with a Weavile rise. Sure, it checks the ever prevelant Zygarde, but it's pitiful bulk leaves it vulnerable to it's extreme speed at +1. It also faces stiff competition as a Zygarde check from Mamoswine, who has much better physical bulk and higher attack, which is more important than speed when trying to take care of Zygarde, because it's too weak to do enough to Mamo with no boosts, and mamo can just use ice shard. While i know weavile can do the same, it gets badly hurt by +1 extreme speed, while mamo can tank it and retaliate better. Mamoswine also can take care of Bisharp better because it outspeeds with EQ and sucker punch doesn't do too much unboosted. Weavile resists sucker punch but can do little to stop Bisharp, unless it sacrifices a moveslot for low kick.

 

[Gross Sweep]

Winter Break has started for me, which means it's time for another VR post as I have to much free time. Will probably stick to the discussion slate + Araquanid since that seems to be a popular topic.

I really don't see this thing rising. It's currently sitting in C+ tied with Shuckle, and one spot above Alolan Ninetails which is where it belongs in my opinion. Yes, I understand this thing can exert an offensive presence that Shuckle simply can't, but it doesn't outclass Shuckle by enough to rise above it. Some advantages that Shuckle has over Araquanid is that it can set up Stealth Rock, has enough bulk to run Mental Herb instead of the sash Araquanid uses (saying Focus Sash on Araquanid based on the analysis set), thanks to mental herb Shuckle doesn't have to play mind games around taunt and magic coat, and has the encore into final gambit possibility to avoid set up and possibly grab momentum (key difference is that while Araquanid can exert an offensive presence to stop set up it doesn't grab momentum as easily).

In the end I feel Araquanid is still tied to Shuckle on where it should be on the VR. As far as suicide leads on a more HO stylistic approach I think that Webs setters are still solidly behind Drill who functions as a lead on more teams and can fill other roles, but just a cut above veil using Ninetales. Aurora Veil has dropped off enough that Ninetales deserves to be below Webs setters, and with Ninetales dropping to C recently I think the case can be made that the reason for Araquanid/Shuckle to rise is lessened even more.

I absolutely loved this mon in ORAS, so it's nice to see it start climbing up into relevancy again. While Weavile is no where near as good as it was back in ORAS, it can still perform. A lot of people have mentioned Ice Shard being able to pick off Zygarde as a big reason for the potential rise, and while I do enjoy the strong priority it actually isn't one of the bigger reasons I see it rising. One of the main reasons I enjoy Weavile right now is that a lot of its switch ins hate coming into Weavile's ever spammable stab Knock Off. Mons like Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Magearna hate losing their items switching in. There are still a few solid switchins like M-Scizor and M-Gyara, but with the increased usage of Magnezone (I agree with Colonel M on that rising to A btw) I don't see that as a huge concern as Zone and Weavile make great partners eliminating the Scizor issue. Also if I'm consistently given the chance to weaken my opponents mega I don't mind since weakening Gyara is always nice, and forcing Scizor to take damage allowing more chances for me to try and either catch it with my Magnezone or go out to a mon that sets up on M-Scizor predicting a roost by a weakened Scizor is appreciated. The final reason I like Weavile right now is because it can trap. Trapping has, and always will be broken. With Weavile being able to trap slower weakened mons and choice locked mons like Lele, Weavile can really be a nuisance. Personnaly I'd be fine with a rise to A- for Weavile, but with M-Scizor, M-Gyara, and others like M-Mawile switching in, and possibly taking advantage of it so easily I wouldn't be upset with it staying B+.

Hawlucha has really exploded since USM cameout. Right now Lucha shares B+ with Peli and Pert, which was fine when Lucha was more restricted to rain, but at this point there are Lucha teams running around with every Tapu under the sun. With the expansion of Lucha's niche as a sweeper outside of rain I feel it has started to distance itself from its rain counterparts more and more. I will say that Hawlucha probably does get amped up a bit to much, as some people consider this thing jesus2.0, but it's still a solid late game finisher with a smallish list of checks. I would say I'm more comfortable with Lucha rising to A- than I am Weavile, but I don't see it going much further. Lucha is simply a one dimmensional cleaner that does its job pretty efficiently, I'm fine with A-.

 

[robofiend]

I disagree with a Weavile rise. Sure, it checks the ever prevelant Zygarde, but it's pitiful bulk leaves it vulnerable to it's extreme speed at +1. It also faces stiff competition as a Zygarde check from Mamoswine, who has much better physical bulk and higher attack, which is more important than speed when trying to take care of Zygarde, because it's too weak to do enough to Mamo with no boosts, and mamo can just use ice shard. While i know weavile can do the same, it gets badly hurt by +1 extreme speed, while mamo can tank it and retaliate better. Mamoswine also can take care of Bisharp better because it outspeeds with EQ and sucker punch doesn't do too much unboosted. Weavile resists sucker punch but can do little to stop Bisharp, unless it sacrifices a moveslot for low kick.

You're only looking at how Mamo/Weavile perform against two pokemon: Zygarde and Bisharp - the latter of whom is still fairly niche, compared to the ubiquitous Zygarde. Also since Weavile can and does run Low Kick, that's a bit of a moot point. Since you didn't do the calcs:

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 170-201 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 144-170 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 296-348 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 270-328 (75.4 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Gave them both LO just for comparison's sake)

So in either case, a +1 Zygarde isn't killing either of these checks outright, and unless it's at full HP, it's got a pretty bad look taking on either of their Ice Shards after the fact. Don't be afraid to make a cogent argument here.

As for Weavile broadly, I've used it, both as an SD sweeper and a Band attacker, each to varying affect. It has problems, but it can do some damage if put in the right team slot. With SD and Low Kick it easily breaks Heatran, Ferrothorn and defensive Lando, giving teammates better equipped to sweeping a better chance. Band has the added advantage of being able to snag some 2HKO's without setup, but moves like Pursuit and Ice Shard often go unused, as they aren't meaningful against a lot of the metagame. Even M-Pinsir easily lives an unboosted Ice Shard, and that's the kind of thing that you'd really need Weavile to OHKO if it were to be an A-.

Most of its problems come in the form of things faster than Weavile. Anything scarfed beats it, any Lopunny or (almost) any Koko beats it, and it's not really good against Greninja without Low Kick. Sure, it can maybe chip a kill on one of them once in a while but being trapped into Ice Shard late game means Kartana, Greninja, Volcarona, M-Mawile or M-Scizor get an often devastating free turn. Most of its other problems come from its god-awful typing, being weak to Rock, Steel, Fighting, Fairy and Fire, ensuring that pretty much everything in the metagame has at least one move to cover it. So good luck switching in on anything at all. That relegates it pretty much exclusively to a risky double-swapper or a revenge killer who could be replaced by something scary like Kartana.

Overall Weavile's just outclassed in a number of ways. As a fast-bander it doesn't boast great coverage, a great attack stat, or a speed tier that really makes it threatening. As a SD sweeper it fulfills a niche that others like Kartana, Pinsir, and even Bisharp compete (and compete well) for. Its priority is decidedly not as scary as M-Scizor's, M-Pinsir's or even Lycanroc-D's and Pursuit is often a solution in search of a problem, since pokemon like Blacephalon almost exclusively run Choice Scarf and can see Weavile coming from a mile away. Add in bad defense, weakness to rocks and an inability to break the tier's best wall (Toxapex) and you've got yourself a thoroughly B+ mon. Nuff said.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

I know this is gonna sound like I’m an absolute retard for doing this, but I’m gonna do it anyways.


Hoping to nom Mega Garchomp from C to C+ through B. Some may say that because it has lower speed and a worse ability means it’s bad. However, that’s like saying regular Scarf Hercaross is better than Mega Hercaross Because Regular is faster and has access to Moxie. Some may say that Mega Hercaross has the ability to break Focus Sashes, But this would also be saying Mega Garchomp has the ability to actually threaten Lando-T with Surf, Unaware Quagsire with Draco Meteor and actually threaten Celesteela with a better Fire Blast instead of doing shit to it. Tyranitar has also raised up in usage and in the sand, Mega Garchomp’s Earthquake is deadlier that Regular LO Chomp’s Earthquake.

 

[blergsid]

I know this is gonna sound like I’m an absolute retard for doing this, but I’m gonna do it anyways.


Hoping to nom Mega Garchomp from C to C+ through B. Some may say that because it has lower speed and a worse ability means it’s bad. However, that’s like saying regular Scarf Hercaross is better than Mega Hercaross Because Regular is faster and has access to Moxie. Some may say that Mega Hercaross has the ability to break Focus Sashes, But this would also be saying Mega Garchomp has the ability to actually threaten Lando-T with Surf, Unaware Quagsire with Draco Meteor and actually threaten Celesteela with a better Fire Blast instead of doing shit to it. Tyranitar has also raised up in usage and in the sand, Mega Garchomp’s Earthquake is deadlier that Regular LO Chomp’s Earthquake.

The main problem with megachomp is that it's just a watered down lando. Sure lando has slightly worse stats all around, but it has an item, frees up your mega, and gives intimidate. This also applies to regular chomp but at a much lower level since chomp gets an item, a decent speed tier and rough skin which is an actually useful ability. Mega also doesn't hit that much harder, with an orb regular does more damage than mega and most special coverage is fairly weak, such as mega fire blast which does less than an LO fang from non-mega. Tyranitar also won't stay in on a chomp unless it's useless in a matchup, and it also is one-shot by or chomp most of the time. Overall mega chomp is fine where it is, doesn't need a rise especially not to b.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

hai! i would like to rank

SNORLAX to C- RANK from UR ( ^ - ^ ) /

Snorlax is a pretty cool mon :3 its not common at all for good reason, but with an Assault Vest slapped onto it, it can be an extremely effective, situational hard switch in to a plethora of other mons in the tier

This is the current Snorlax set i've been running, i started a fresh new alt with an AV snorlax team and it has allowed me to get 1800-1900 ELO on ladder with 85 GXE pretty easily

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Self-Destruct

With this spread and item and moveset, snorlax is able to switch in on a multitude of dangerous special attackers and dish out decent damage in return. This set is able to hard wall:

- Magearna
- Volcarona
- Greninja
- Ash Greninja
- Mega Charizard-Y
- Blacephon
- Mega Alakazam/Alakazam
- Z-move Victini
- Manaphy
- Latios/Latias/Mega Latios/Mega Latias
- Special variants of Tapu Koko
- Heatran
- Gengar
- Marowak Alola
- pretty much every special attacker 1 v 1

With thick fat you effectively gain a fire and ice resistance and coupled with Snorlax's high HP and already high spdef with the boost from AV, you are able to put a hard stop to essentially all the special attackers in the tier. Since you have thick fat, as well as eq, snorlax is pretty much the best switch in for magma storm heatran we have available (better than ttar cuz earth power does a handful to that), z move victini, blacephon, volcarona, and mega zard-y. outside of special fire types, snorlax also checks Mega Zam, both greninjas, latis, Magearna, etc. The given EV spread is the most optimal because Snorlax's HP is already absurdly high even without investment so you get the most when you max out Snorlax's spdef instead, and then maximum attack output makes you hit surprisingly hard given Snorlax's base attack. Some calculations:

252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-267 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.6 - 29.2%)
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Snorlax: 34-42 (7.3 - 9%)
252 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 130-154 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 162-192 (35 - 41.5%)
252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%)
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Sn orlax in Rain: 364-429 (78.7 - 92.8%) lol
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 319-376 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 231-273 (74.2 - 87.7%)

Return is the best consistent STAB move you have available, actually you can use double edge but i def dont rly prefer the recoil on a tanky set such as this. pursuit is here so you can trap and kill latis, alakazams, and blacephons and remove them from the rest of the game. only return and pursuit are pretty much mandatory here for this set but the other two slots are definitely interchangeable. i like eq cuz snorlax is pretty much the best magma storm heatran switch in ever, and it also allows you to deal massive dmg to magearnas, magnezones, marowaks, etc. i rly like self destruct on here cuz self destruct coming from a mon that has base 110 atk WITH STAB on it hits pretty fucking hard, its essentially a Z-move except you die :/ but its great to just end something that attempts to set up on you, for example:
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 333-393 (93 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 267-315 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
however there are other options you can def try out for the last two slots, for example: fire punch, superpower, ice punch, gunk shot

av snorlax has literally the same amount of special bulk as av ttar in sand. several ppl have asked me why i dont just use av ttar > av snorlax for a pursuiter. there are several niches snorlax has over tyranitar:
1) lack of bug weakness ---> you can actually take on bug buzz volcarona
2) lack of water weakness... this is huge so you can switch in on shit like manaphy and specs greninja
3) lack of 4x weak to fighting, allowing snorlax to take on focus blasts significantly better than ttar ever could, from monsters such as mega zam, gengar, magearna
4) lack of fairy weakness, able to switch in specs koko significantly better since you dont have to worry about dazzling gleam
5) lack of grass + ground weakness, able to take on bloom doom heatran + earth powers from tran too without it doing too much
sample team: http://pokepast.es/b6db08b019c06d68

mandatory replay so my post for an UR mon doesnt get deleted: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-676684275
lax traps and kills tapu lele, kills magma storm tran, and chips greninja with pursuit. opponent got owned >:DDD

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Charizard Y to C
Yes, I know it has dropped 4 subranks, But C+ honestly oversells this mon. It loses to pretty much every viable play style right now. Balance and Stall have toxapex, chansey, and Mantine, Zard Y is complete Pelipper bait against rain, HO and regular offense have all the tools to offensively pressure charizard. and BO often has Toxapex too. They can also offensively pressure Zard Y too. Zard Y only fits onto one play style, which just so happens to be one of the worst playstyles atm. In what world is this thing as good as Mega Camel and Volcanion, two sitouantional But deadly balance breakers, and basically the rest of C+ too. To sum it up, Zard Y should drop as it’s pretty much deadweight against every viable play style right now, and it should not be ranked with Araquanid and Volcanion, it’s more on par with mons like Mega altaria.
I will also support snorlax getting ranked.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Charizard Y to C
Yes, I know it has dropped 4 subranks, But C+ honestly oversells this mon. It loses to pretty much every viable play style right now. Balance and Stall have toxapex, chansey, and Mantine, Zard Y is complete Pelipper bait against rain, HO and regular offense have all the tools to offensively pressure charizard. and BO often has Toxapex too. They can also offensively pressure Zard Y too. Zard Y only fits onto one play style, which just so happens to be one of the worst playstyles atm. In what world is this thing as good as Mega Camel and Volcanion, two sitouantional But deadly balance breakers, and basically the rest of C+ too. To sum it up, Zard Y should drop as it’s pretty much deadweight against every viable play style right now, and it should not be ranked with Araquanid and Volcanion, it’s more on par with mons like Mega altaria.
I will also support snorlax getting ranked.

I agree with this nomination, especially since I fully believe Blacephalon does the niche of a Fire type fat breaker way better than Zard could ever hope to. What I would like to add is that when I made this nomination, I was shut down by the fact that Zard supposedly has a niche in not getting crapped on by TTar. Well, upon further thought, this isn't a super duper big deal. After all, it has been shown in the past that Specs Blace can 2HKO most TTar variants with HP Grass/Ground (AV Tar doesn't exist anymore, unmon). Besides, it's not like Tyranitar is such an extremely difficult Pokemon to wear down to where you need to run a mostly inferior Blacephalon just to beat it. Please drop Zard Y, thanks.

quick edit: oops, actually, specs Blace can't 2shot TTar. But still, why switch it out for Zard when you lose to more things that Blace beats/pressures than gain things you win against?

 

[blank]

even though i agree with the points about zard-y being bad, i really think C rank is excessive.

i don't see much of a point in going over the points that get brought up every time this pokemon gets nominated to drop. rather, i'm just going to point out that i think zard-y is on a significantly higher level than anything in C rank (except maybe the recently dropped alolan ninetales). furthermore, i think it's about on par with alowak, mega manectric, mega camerupt, volcanion, etc. in viability. zard-y isn't good, and i think it's current rank reflects this sufficiently. a drop would just be overdoing it at this point.

i really don't agree with the mega garchomp nomination. regular garchomp is already dropping due to facing competition as a breaker and being a pretty terrible scarfer. mega garchomp has been clearly worse than regular garchomp since XY, and i think the difference between the two is even greater in SM lol. one of the main redeeming qualities of regular garchomp as a breaker is the fact that you can run a variety of SD + z move (dragonium, firium, rockium) sets that can blow past common checks. with mega garchomp, you aren't only giving up some speed and a mega slot for that extra power. losing out on the ability to run a zmove set to quickly blow past pokemon like landorus-t, celesteela, skarmory, etc. after setting up.

here are some calcs to show the power difference:

calcs

regular garchomp:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 306-361 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 408-482 (102.5 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 370-436 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 233-275 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 222-262 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 296-350 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

mega garchomp:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 272-320 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 190-225 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 198-234 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

note: this isn't me advocating for firium z garchomp.

i don't usually like using calcs as such an important part of an argument, but i think they're worthwhile here because while mega chomp can deal significant damage to these threats at +2, it can't effectively kill them. there's a reason garchomp in general has fallen out of favor, and one of the main redeeming qualities of it is to have a powerful breaker that can"surprise" kill some serious defensive threats. the effective teams i see with garchomp usually have it as a way of overwhelming one of these checks with a z move. the ability to quickly eliminate these defensive pokemon is important as fuck because if you aren't getting rid of them, they can just come back and annoy you: landorus-t can still intimidate some stuff and set rocks / defog potentially, and celesteela and skarmory aren't particularly difficult to heal up considering all the stuff they can wall.

i think mega garchomp is fine in C rank next to other lame breakers like crawdaunt and mega gallade (although i think these have more merit than it even). proposing that it should rise to B rank (like... next to its significantly superior but already sorta average nonmega counterpart) is just wild.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

hai! i would like to rank

View attachment 93761

SNORLAX to C- RANK from UR ( ^ - ^ ) /

Snorlax is a pretty cool mon :3 its not common at all for good reason, but with an Assault Vest slapped onto it, it can be an extremely effective, situational hard switch in to a plethora of other mons in the tier

This is the current Snorlax set i've been running, i started a fresh new alt with an AV snorlax team and it has allowed me to get 1800-1900 ELO on ladder with 85 GXE pretty easily

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Self-Destruct

With this spread and item and moveset, snorlax is able to switch in on a multitude of dangerous special attackers and dish out decent damage in return. This set is able to hard wall:

- Magearna
- Volcarona
- Greninja
- Ash Greninja
- Mega Charizard-Y
- Blacephon
- Mega Alakazam/Alakazam
- Z-move Victini
- Manaphy
- Latios/Latias/Mega Latios/Mega Latias
- Special variants of Tapu Koko
- Heatran
- Gengar
- Marowak Alola
- pretty much every special attacker 1 v 1

With thick fat you effectively gain a fire and ice resistance and coupled with Snorlax's high HP and already high spdef with the boost from AV, you are able to put a hard stop to essentially all the special attackers in the tier. Since you have thick fat, as well as eq, snorlax is pretty much the best switch in for magma storm heatran we have available (better than ttar cuz earth power does a handful to that), z move victini, blacephon, volcarona, and mega zard-y. outside of special fire types, snorlax also checks Mega Zam, both greninjas, latis, Magearna, etc. The given EV spread is the most optimal because Snorlax's HP is already absurdly high even without investment so you get the most when you max out Snorlax's spdef instead, and then maximum attack output makes you hit surprisingly hard given Snorlax's base attack. Some calculations:

252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-267 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.6 - 29.2%)
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Snorlax: 34-42 (7.3 - 9%)
252 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 130-154 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 162-192 (35 - 41.5%)
252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%)
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Sn orlax in Rain: 364-429 (78.7 - 92.8%) lol
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 319-376 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 231-273 (74.2 - 87.7%)

Return is the best consistent STAB move you have available, actually you can use double edge but i def dont rly prefer the recoil on a tanky set such as this. pursuit is here so you can trap and kill latis, alakazams, and blacephons and remove them from the rest of the game. only return and pursuit are pretty much mandatory here for this set but the other two slots are definitely interchangeable. i like eq cuz snorlax is pretty much the best magma storm heatran switch in ever, and it also allows you to deal massive dmg to magearnas, magnezones, marowaks, etc. i rly like self destruct on here cuz self destruct coming from a mon that has base 110 atk WITH STAB on it hits pretty fucking hard, its essentially a Z-move except you die :/ but its great to just end something that attempts to set up on you, for example:
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 333-393 (93 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 267-315 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
however there are other options you can def try out for the last two slots, for example: fire punch, superpower, ice punch, gunk shot

av snorlax has literally the same amount of special bulk as av ttar in sand. several ppl have asked me why i dont just use av ttar > av snorlax for a pursuiter. there are several niches snorlax has over tyranitar:
1) lack of bug weakness ---> you can actually take on bug buzz volcarona
2) lack of water weakness... this is huge so you can switch in on shit like manaphy and specs greninja
3) lack of 4x weak to fighting, allowing snorlax to take on focus blasts significantly better than ttar ever could, from monsters such as mega zam, gengar, magearna
4) lack of fairy weakness, able to switch in specs koko significantly better since you dont have to worry about dazzling gleam
5) lack of grass + ground weakness, able to take on bloom doom heatran + earth powers from tran too without it doing too much
sample team: http://pokepast.es/b6db08b019c06d68

mandatory replay so my post for an UR mon doesnt get deleted: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-676684275
lax traps and kills tapu lele, kills magma storm tran, and chips greninja with pursuit. opponent got owned >:DDD

i completely agree with Snorlax being C-. It is just as good if not better than mons in C-, like Qwilfish, Aerodactyl-Mega, and lycanroc dusk. It offers a complete stop to Blacephalon with AV and wrecks a lot of special attackers. On TR it can be scary too with belly drum and choice band sets being more than potent. Definitely should be ranked.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

i completely agree with Snorlax being C-. It is just as good if not better than mons in C-, like Qwilfish, Aerodactyl-Mega, and lycanroc dusk. It offers a complete stop to Blacephalon with AV and wrecks a lot of special attackers. On TR it can be scary too with belly drum and choice band sets being more than potent. Definitely should be ranked.

I am not opposed to Snorlax moving to C- but there are a lot of ways it can lose to Pokemon it supposedly checks

For example Blacephon does have ways to combat AV Snorlax, such as Psyshock or sabatoging it by Tricking a Choice Scarf/Specs on it. While it can check a lot of Speical Nukes/Sweeps in the meta, it stuggles vs Physical attackers and common wall mons due to a severe case of 4MSS

AV Snorlax will be complete SD set-up fodder for Kartana and M-Scizor without a fire attack. Will get worn down by Landorus-T and Zygarde without an ice attack and will likely fail to break though Toxapex even with EQ

 

[Leo]

I suggest we move on from the Snorlax discussion, the nom is there and I'm sure the vr council will consider it so there's no need to keep going about it. I know some of you question its viability but unless you can back up your points with solid arguments you aren't getting anywhere. Like why try to push for it to be ranked using a set that he didn't mention (Belly Drum) as your argument without even explaining why this set works too and providing replays? Or say it's set up fodder for Kartana and Mega Scizor and will get worn down by Landorus-T when it's goal isn't dealing with those mons and it can be paired with teammates that handle them (as can be seen in the team wcar shared with Zapdos and defensive Landorus-T). This isn't getting anywhere and unless someone can provide solid reasoning against it (which would be completely fine) there's no reason to keep discussing a mon that isn't ranked yet and likely noone here has used.

Moving on from this, I definitely think Hawlucha should rise to A- which is probably the highest it will go atm. In the past few of months Hawlucha has moved on from being a great asset for Rain teams to a splashable sweeper that can fit on a variety of teams as long as there's a Tapu to trigger it's seed and is a huge threat to most offenses that usually rely on multiple priority moves or a healthy Tapu Koko to take it on. While bulkier teams may not be threatened by it as much as offensive teams are, it can still put work with the proper support to wear down the likes of Toxapex and Clefable. The last free slot gives it some nice versatility, since it can run different moves that improve it's matchup vs certain Pokemon i.e. Stone Edge for Zapdos, Roost to set up on Lando and Celesteela that usually try to weaken it for it to be easier to pick off with priority/other weak moves, Drain Punch to keep itself healthy, etc.

 

[pubby]

Snorlax's pursuit is pretty weak. It does around 27% to Heatran, 23% to Greninja, and 18% to Tapu Koko, which is rarely enough damage to actually matter and not worth dedicating an entire member of your team to. It's not strong enough to OHKO common Psychic types after rocks (does ~75% if they switch), and that's a HUGE problem because Psyshock can 2HKO you. This, combined with how easy it is to wall AV Snorlax means Snorlax doesn't get many kills. (when it does get kills, it's usually because of opponent misplays, like not calcing damage and thinking it's banded)

 

[Finchinator]

live footage of the OU mod team removing snorlax from this thread

(pls no more discussion, all points will be taken into consideration)

edit: tdk is misty btw

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

The main problem with megachomp is that it's just a watered down lando. Sure lando has slightly worse stats all around, but it has an item, frees up your mega, and gives intimidate. This also applies to regular chomp but at a much lower level since chomp gets an item, a decent speed tier and rough skin which is an actually useful ability. Mega also doesn't hit that much harder, with an orb regular does more damage than mega and most special coverage is fairly weak, such as mega fire blast which does less than an LO fang from non-mega. Tyranitar also won't stay in on a chomp unless it's useless in a matchup, and it also is one-shot by or chomp most of the time. Overall mega chomp is fine where it is, doesn't need a rise especially not to b.

Yes, yes it does. Again, yes, yes it does. However, Rough Skin isn’t really as good as it was back then with there being mostly physical attackers and the drop of Tankchomp. Believe me on this, I used LO Garchomp before, and not even a +2 252 Atk LO Fire Fang from it can activate Study on a 252 HP / 252 Def + Skarmory.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 211-250 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (211, 213, 216, 218, 221, 224, 226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 239, 242, 244, 247, 250) Mega Chomp has a more useful fire attack in Fire Blast, and yes, it’s slow, but Sticky Web can (most of the time) patch it up.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Yes, yes it does. Again, yes, yes it does. However, Rough Skin isn’t really as good as it was back then with there being mostly physical attackers and the drop of Tankchomp. Believe me on this, I used LO Garchomp before, and not even a +2 252 Atk LO Fire Fang from it can activate Study on a 252 HP / 252 Def + Skarmory.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 211-250 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (211, 213, 216, 218, 221, 224, 226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 239, 242, 244, 247, 250) Mega Chomp has a more useful fire attack in Fire Blast, and yes, it’s slow, but Sticky Web can (most of the time) patch it up.

Fire Blast Mega Garchomp has existed since Gen 6. Full physical variants of Garchomp have been pretty much hard countered by Skarmory since it released. Nothing has changed recently to warrant Mega Garchomp rising, and the ability to somewhat beat a few of its base form's checks is vastly overshadowed by how inferior it is to both its base form and other Pokemon in pretty much every other aspect.

Oh, and by the way...
4 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 229-270 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

Fire Blast Mega Garchomp has existed since Gen 6. Full physical variants of Garchomp has been pretty much hard countered by Skarmory since it released. Nothing has changed recently to warrant Mega Garchomp rising, and the ability to somewhat beat a few of its base form's checks is vastly overshadowed by how inferior it is to both its base form and other Pokemon in pretty much every other aspect.

Oh, and by the way...
4 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 229-270 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah, a 2HKO. Against a mon that has 70 SpD and 65 HP.
156+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 204-240 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (204, 206, 208, 210, 212, 216, 218, 220, 222, 224, 228, 230, 232, 234, 236, 240)

4 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 151-179 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (151, 153, 156, 156, 159, 161, 161, 164, 166, 166, 169, 172, 172, 174, 177, 179)
156+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 198-234 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (198, 200, 203, 205, 208, 211, 211, 213, 216, 218, 221, 224, 226, 229, 231, 234)

 

[Divine Retribution]

Yeah, a 2HKO. Against a mon that has 70 SpD and 65 HP.
156+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 204-240 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (204, 206, 208, 210, 212, 216, 218, 220, 222, 224, 228, 230, 232, 234, 236, 240)

4 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 151-179 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (151, 153, 156, 156, 159, 161, 161, 164, 166, 166, 169, 172, 172, 174, 177, 179)
156+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 198-234 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (198, 200, 203, 205, 208, 211, 211, 213, 216, 218, 221, 224, 226, 229, 231, 234)

I'm aware, the point is that regular Garchomp still kills Skarmory, so this isn't exactly an argument in favor of Mega Garchomp. Given the fact that you've moved the goalposts to Celesteela I'm going to assume you concede this.

You also still haven't addressed what exactly has changed to warrant Mega Garchomp moving up now.