Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

I completely disagree with this nomination. Infernape can't do anything to Araquanid, All of the Tapus, and Toxapex with it's fighting STAB. There is hardly a reason to even run this over Terrakion, who doesn't get fucked over by Toxapex and has better bulk. It's just outclassed and doesn't hit hard enough to be ranked rn
"A fighting type pokemon cannot beat fighting resists with its fighting stab, therefore Lopunny-M is bad"
Aside from forgetting that Infernape (and Lopunny-M) has 3 other moves out of a very wide movepool to choose from to hit whatever it wants, you don't really address any of the merits he mentions about using Infernape. This includes its aforementioned ability to be unpredictable, dismantle bulky cores itself or by pivoting into a breaker, not pressure its team for hazard removal, or how it can revenge kill prominent threats.

I'm neither disagreeing nor agreeing with the nomination, but I can say that your justification to your stance doesn't really hold much meaning to it.
 
(Infernape)
Unranked -> C-/C

Infernape is extremely underrated right now in my opinion. Having an good dual STAB combination is fire and fighting which is able to hit the majority of the biggest threats in the tier for super effective damage. The ability to run a mixed set is also beneficial as it can utilize overheat, then potentially use physical moves. Having a decent speed tier and access to strong STABs in overheat and close combat it can act as a good revenge killer, late game sweeper and even break bulky mons such as Chansey, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and Scizor. Infernape has a niche as a fast fire type attacker in OU not weak to stealth rocks. With the constant threat of rocks Infernape doesn't need support from a defogger that Volcarona, Charizard X/Y and Blacephalon need. It also has the capability to reliable get past common fire type checks such as Toxapex and Heatran with thunder punch/earthquake/close combat.

My ideal coverage move for Infernape is thunder punch. With it, Infernape can threaten water types such as Pelipper, Toxapex, Mantine and Keldo (on the switch) which would otherwise wall Infernape outright. This is greatly aided by Tapu Koko support. Thunder punch is great for a surprise KO, especially since Infernape is not a very popular mon right now. This makes it a surprisingly good answer to rain, being able to KO the main rain setter, Pelipper, early into the game.
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Electric Terrain: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 380-452 (101.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 302-359 (93.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape has another great niche with access to priority in vacuum wave which is able to OHKO Kartana, a prevalent threat in the tier, and revenge Greninja and Mega-Lopunny after some prior damage. It can also deal 35% to Mega-Gyarados. Infernape is great for removing the opponents speed control and can act as a decent support mon when necessary.
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 307-361 (118.5 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 187-221 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 133-159 (49 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 104-125 (31.4 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape is by no means great, it is threatened faster attackers and scarfers in can't KO with vacuum wave and with fragile defenses at best, it is easily worn down and KOed. However, with the right support it can fill multiple roles and is definitely not dead weight.

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 538-634 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 624-738 (177.2 - 209.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 239-282 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 359-424 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 408-484 (104.3 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 298-352 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- possible KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 196-231 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 356-425 (103.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Vacuum Wave
- Thunder Punch
- Overheat
- Close Combat

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682165253
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682168158 (This one shows Infernapes usefulness against a SD Kartana which would have otherwise swept me)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682173199

So I'm nominating Infernape for C-/C as its easily on the same level as mons such as Qwilfish/Lycanroc-Dusk in C- and even Muk-A and Mega-Altaria in C.
I completely disagree with this nomination. Infernape can't do anything to Araquanid, All of the Tapus, and Toxapex with it's fighting STAB. There is hardly a reason to even run this over Terrakion, who doesn't get fucked over by Toxapex and has better bulk. It's just outclassed and doesn't hit hard enough to be ranked rn
I agree with Lord Helix, but largely disagree with the wording.
I dont think Nape should be ranked because it doesnt have its most relevant niche anymore, and almost
no reason to be used. It was originally ranked for its ability to ohko revenge kill both volc and magearna after they had set up. However, it dropped as magearna dropped from S and shift gear has become less relevant, and nothing has changed to make it or nape relevant again. You also said his dual stabs hit most of the meta super effectively, but thats proven pretty untrue by the fact that the 2 S mons can both pretty easily wall his dual stab combo,
 
I completely disagree with this nomination. Infernape can't do anything to Araquanid, All of the Tapus, and Toxapex with it's fighting STAB. There is hardly a reason to even run this over Terrakion, who doesn't get fucked over by Toxapex and has better bulk. It's just outclassed and doesn't hit hard enough to be ranked rn
I haven’t used Infernape this meta but for starters Infernape can go mix or special sets while Terrakion is stuck using a physical set, letting Infernape better deal against physical walls like Lando T. Also Infernape has two forms of stab priorities while Terrakion only has quick attack.
 
The nom is only to C-, i.e. the bottom of viability ranks. If Infernape could muscle through the 2 S rank mons it'd probably be ranked higher, but a mon doesn't need to be able to beat both S rank mons in order to be considered viable (i.e. C- or above) as an offensive pokemon on the rankings IMO.
 
The nom is only to C-, i.e. the bottom of viability ranks. If Infernape could muscle through the 2 S rank mons it'd probably be ranked higher, but a mon doesn't need to be able to beat both S rank mons in order to be considered viable (i.e. C- or above) as an offensive pokemon on the rankings IMO.
I just want to add that Infernape can do a decent amount to Lando, it 2HKOs offensive variants with overheat and can 2HKO defensive variants with overheat when rocks are up. This isn't actually bad as Lando likes to switch into close combat, if you can predict this you can essentially KO all non-scarf variants. Obviously 1v1 earthquake KOs you but no one should be keeping an Infernape in on Lando anyways. Another good thing that I want to mention is that you can tailor Infernape to your needs, my set is 88 SpAtk but you can run more EVs or even hp ice.
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 247-292 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 370-438 (115.9 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 358-423 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 307-364 (96.2 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape definitely struggles with physically defensive Pex, scald hurts badly but you are at no risk of burns. As in my original post, with Koko support, thunder punch is a good answer to Pex. If you are not worried about Mantine, Pelipper ect then Inefernape also has access to earthquake. Earthquake is a lot more reliable as it doesn't require Koko support. Infernape handles specially defensive Pex extremely well, earthquake 2HKOs and thunder punch 2HKOs with electric terrain up.
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 177-211 (58.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I completely disagree with this nomination. Infernape can't do anything to Araquanid, All of the Tapus, and Toxapex with it's fighting STAB. There is hardly a reason to even run this over Terrakion, who doesn't get fucked over by Toxapex and has better bulk. It's just outclassed and doesn't hit hard enough to be ranked rn
You wouldn't be hitting any of these with fighting STAB. Overheat reliable 2HKOs av Bulu, and can 2HKO Lele. Infernape has a high chance to 2HKO Fini with thunder punch if rocks are up. (speaking about Fini, Infernape can always run gunk shot to check fairies more reliably). You can OHKO Koko with heat wave but unless its coming in on a switch you'd never be doing this.
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 402-480 (116.8 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Grassy Terrain recovery
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 151-179 (44 - 52.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape can also OHKO 248 HP Araquanid with thunder punch in electric terrain and rocks. It can 2HKO with thunder punch without rocks or electric terrain so if it comes in on the switch and you predict correctly it's gone.
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Araquanid: 182-216 (53.6 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Araquanid in Electric Terrain: 273-322 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Infernapes viability is also helped by the rise of usage of av Bulu as Infernape resists its main stab and can 2HKO back with overheat, the increased usage of Kartana, where Infernape resists it's 2 main STABs, is hit neutrally by sacred sword and resists (but doesn't like) knock off and is able to retaliate back by OHKOing with priority vacuum wave. Infernape is also helped by the decrease in usage (by what I've seen on the ladder) of both Greninja's who threaten it with its STABs. Infernape is also a great partner for Volcarona, Mega/Lati@s and other mons that like the removal of Tyranitar who's seen everywhere nowadays. Also with the increased usage of Ttar comes more sand rush Excadrills, Infernape can KO Excadrill from half health or less with vacuum wave. The best thing about Infernape is its sheer diversity in the roles it can cover. It can go fully physical/special if you need, it can run scarf stone edge to kill volc at +1. It can run rocks. In addition to its plethora of coverage moves including earthquake, vacuum wave, thunder punch, hp ice, gunk shot, grass knot, uturn as well as taunt and wisp.
Infernape is by no means the greatest mon, it cannot take many mons on 1v1 and requires heavy support which is why I'm only nominating it for C- where I think it's on par with those mons. I think Infernapes unpredictability along with its versatility carve it out a nice niche as a mixed attacker and a definite answer to Kartana.
 
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bludz

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The real problem with Infernape's "versatility" is that none of those niches it can perform are really all that viable or relevant, when you compare their performance to other pokemon in the metagame. Kinda similar to in ORAS when people kept lobbying for it to go from C+ to B- because it can do all these things, but really was never great at any of them. In SM, it's really only gotten worse with mons like Toxapex and Greninja running amok. BTW, its resistances are not actually that useful in terms of defensive synergy due to its poor bulk. It can't even switch in to resisted hits from Kartana:

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 125-147 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It was ranked at one point for its Choice Scarf set which reliably revenge killed Shift Gear Magearna, which has been seeing less usage than that point in time. Non-choice sets are largely outclassed by fast breakers like Greninja and Kartana. I'm using outclassed in a loose sense here because I realize nothing else mirrors the Fire / Fighting STAB combination but other fast breakers like Blacephalon or Kartana are generally going to be more useful, even if their movepools render them far more predictable. Nape has coverage aplenty but it's pretty weak, and has trouble covering all the stuff you want.

In short, despite the jack-of-all-trades advertisement, none of Infernape's sets have a truly relevant niche in this metagame, as far as I've seen.
 
This is my first time posting on the VR thread so forgive me if I do something wrong or something, just felt like I should comment on a few things because it seems like the way OU is right now is kind of consistent in the sense that things do what they're supposed to consistently, and things are spammed I guess lol.

1514880799327.png
Volcarona A to A- = Agree (with whoever suggested it before)

Just feel like ever since pex went to S volc hasn't been used as much, and is also just not as good, definitely always gonna be a threat but just don't feel like its as easy to use as other pokemon in A.


1514881001411.png
Hawlucha B+ to A- = Agree (again agreeing with whoever nominated it)

Lucha is spammed so hard with koko and scarf kart and av mag or sg mag, and the roost set just sets up on lando and wins a lot. I think I'm supposed to use replays or something and like I said let me know if I'm doing something wrong, but everyone knows how good lucha is now lol. Destroys offense with the assistance of a tapu, just think it's about time to put it in A-.
 
Volcarona A to A- = Agree (with whoever suggested it before)

Just feel like ever since pex went to S volc hasn't been used as much, and is also just not as good, definitely always gonna be a threat but just don't feel like its as easy to use as other pokemon in A.
Pex rising is a horrible reason to warrant a volcarona drop. Volc has some way to get past most, if not all of its checks. (By checks, I mean something that would survive a +1 fire blast and be able to retaliate back or have priority/higher speed)

Bug Buzz> Tyranitar, Latios, Quagsire, Ash-Greninja
Giga Drain> Mega Diancie, Mega Swampert, Tapu Fini,
HP Ground> Heatran, Marowak-A, Stakataka
Bulky>Mimikyu, Electric Seed Hawlucha, Mega Pinsir, Lycanroc-Dusk, Scarf Keldeo
Firium Z/Buginium Z> Zygarde, Garchomp, Victini, Unaware Clefable,
Psychium Z> Mega Venusaur, Toxapex, Pelipper, Mega Zard X
SubSwarm> Chansey, Blissey

And if dragonite ever gets popular, assuming multiscale is broken,
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 311-366 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Of course volc can never run all of these sets at once, but a lot of these moves or sets double dip into other categories, meaning that you'll only have a handful of checks for each volcarona set. Volc can ALWAYS adapt to meta trends. Heatran getting more popular? HP ground. Surge in Ttar usage? Bug Buzz. Increased usage in stall teams? SubSwarm. Likewise, if pex rises in usage, it'll only increase the usage of psychium Z sets. Volc will never be bad in the USUM meta because even if the meta shifts, volc shifts along with the meta.
 
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This is my first time posting on the VR thread so forgive me if I do something wrong or something, just felt like I should comment on a few things because it seems like the way OU is right now is kind of consistent in the sense that things do what they're supposed to consistently, and things are spammed I guess lol.

View attachment 95796 Volcarona A to A- = Agree (with whoever suggested it before)

Just feel like ever since pex went to S volc hasn't been used as much, and is also just not as good, definitely always gonna be a threat but just don't feel like its as easy to use as other pokemon in A.
I personally do not feel that toxapex is a reason for Volcarona to drop as Volc has the capability to kill pex if it attempts to switch in on a psychium z set (+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 330-390 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO) furthermore other popular sets such as subswarm are able to get subs on pex and at +1 sp def pex cannot break the sub in one hit w/ scald without the highest roll possible or a critical hit leaving pex being drained or possibly killed

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 66-80 (21.2 - 25.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 95-112 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Also the "not as easy to use" part doesn' t really make sense to me however ill assume you mean it cannot switch in as freely as other A tier pokemon (excluding Kyu-b i guess).I also disagree with this as volcarona can switch in on many passive walls unable to really touch volcarona e.g tangrowth,celesteela (espcially against sub volc) and mew but recently due to the rise in pokemon such as kartana (providing it isnt set up) and av tapu bulu volcarona has a few more opportunities to switch in reletively freely. As far as hazards goes there is far more choices for stealth rockers volcarona can have as teammates e.g tornados,gliscor and lando-t and even rotom-w most of those listed pokemon are able to beat popular stealth rockers as well


View attachment 95797 Hawlucha B+ to A- = Agree (again agreeing with whoever nominated it)

Lucha is spammed so hard with koko and scarf kart and av mag or sg mag, and the roost set just sets up on lando and wins a lot. I think I'm supposed to use replays or something and like I said let me know if I'm doing something wrong, but everyone knows how good lucha is now lol. Destroys offense with the assistance of a tapu, just think it's about time to put it in A-.[/QUOTE]

As far a lucha goes i'm leaning towards moving it up a tier however i not really sure about this decision if zapdos usage happens to rise again
 
Volcorona's main reason for being ranked "A" depends largely on "fear or surprise factor" the fact that it has the POTENITAL to burn though teams that either do not have a check for it or it had already been taken out in the match. However, that actullay works well in Volcorona favor

For example If your opponent does not know what coverage move Volc is running, it can make them unsure about sending in a Pokemom that "should check it" only to be easily dispachted. For example Psychium-Z for Toxapex or HP ground for Heatran.

It can become a deadly guessing game that people may or may not want to risk playing.

Zapdos potentially rising in usage also helps it slightly too. As an ally it provides the needed Defog support and can check things like Hawlucha and M-Pinisr that threaten it. As an opponent it cannot really do anything to stop it from Quiver Dancing and starting a sweep outside the uncommon Flyium-Z set
 
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Jordy

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I think that everything as to why Volcarona should move down or not has been stated already so lets leave it to the council what's finally gonna happen to it.

Now, I don't think that Infernape is completely unviable, but the niches that it does have are so minor that it sees a lot of competition for a teamslot. Outside of its Choice Scarf set i have never seen Infernape do anything significant outside of kill a Kartana with vacuum wave (OMG).. and then die straight after. I'd also like to say that the Infernape set ffgcsdt9 provided gets completely walled by one of the best Pokemon in Toxapex. no damage lol. No, the fact that it needs Electric Terrain to break Toxapex is not something positive.

I'd like to echo Hawlucha's nomination once more and say that it should rise to A instead of A- for the exact same reasons that Albacore has mentioned.
1514927468677.png


Now finally for my own nomination.

-> B+ (omg wyattdev what have u done)
Mega Venusaur is by no means bad but the fact that it has to choose between being walled by Magearna, Mega Scizor, and Kartana is really bad for it rn, it can possibly run EQ and HP Fire but that means it has to choose between being an actual rain wall or threatening Fairy-types like Tapu Koko. Balance has also shifted out of favor recently, getting replaced by Bulky Offense. While it may be able to wall Tapu Koko it still isnt a fantastic wall to it considering the possibility of Tapu Koko Volt Switching/U-turning into Hawlucha. I've also noticed a little surge of usage from other mega Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Latios, this clearly shows that less teams have a place to run Mega Venusaur because no team can run 2 Mega Pokemon, the latter 2 can also threaten Mega Venusaur with their respective STAB moves. And then there's ofcourse the fact that Celesteela is falling out of favor, getting used less and less for Ferrothorn instead, Ferrothorn can also do what Mega Venusaur does to a lesser extent; they both are Grass-types that can wall Rain teams, lure Kartana, and deal with Fairy-types, but Ferrothorn has the addition Spikes/Stealth Rock which makes it over all a greater pick currently.

This is another nomination of mine that i'd still like to echo since my point still stands.

-> B-
Alomomola has been getting a lot more usage since the release of USUM however, I really don't know why lol I fail to see any positive traits besides having obese wishes, it is way too passive for my liking and honestly, Toxapex outdoes it by quite a lot Toxapex can absorb T-Spikes, Is not set up bait because of Haze in contrary to Alomomola which fails to break most Substitutes of Pokemon that do use Substitute, and can set up Toxic Spikes itself. The surge of Pokemon like Kartana, Tapu Koko, and Tapu Bulu has hurt this mon a lot and I think this and all of the aforementioned points are why Alomomola should drop, on basically all points but one it is a worse Toxapex.
On this i'd also like to add more Toxapex's have started to run Toxic, heavily crippling Alomomola.
 
Does anyone even use Alomomola? I mean all the other water mons have better coverage and have defog, while Alomomola doesn't. Aka rotom, pelipper, and mantine, not to mention they all fly over spikes. Is there a good reason to use it over them?
 
Does anyone even use Alomomola? I mean all the other water mons have better coverage and have defog, while Alomomola doesn't. Aka rotom, pelipper, and mantine, not to mention they all fly over spikes. Is there a good reason to use it over them?
the only real other thing alomomola brings that other bulky water's don't is wish support. It has utility moves in scald, toxic and knock off but plenty of other bulky waters have the same thing. It can pass wishes and regenerate back it's own health, which is a pretty nice niche. Not to mention it has a huge hp stat and it's wishes can fully heal a lot of pokemon. The only place alomomola ever sees usage is stall teams with pokemon without reliable recovery that need wish support. However, in most cases toxapex is just better and even unaware clef and chansey can pass wishes for stall teams. But nevertheless, mola is extremely susceptible to hazards, status, it's special bulk isn't too great and in most ways it is generally inferior to other bulky waters. Toxapex is bulkier, removes toxic spikes, has haze and toxic spikes and doesn't need to use up 2 moveslots for recovery. Mantine is a lot bulkier on the special side, has defog and haze and is completely immune to spikes and toxic spikes.

silent ghost I mean you could run rain dance and hydration on alomomola, but you would lose a moveslot and not have regenerator. (regenerator is probably the best defensive ability and the biggest reason why alomomola isn't complete trash)

So this isn't a one liner: I still hold my case that lucha should go to A rather than A-. It is easily one of the best setup sweepers in the tier and a headache for almost all offensive teams in both building and playing.
 
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ya someone brought up toxic but thats not even a problem for it since Alomomola has hydration and rain dance. Though it can't remove hazards like the other water mons. Since seems like not enough good reason to use it over them.
 
why not just fix the problem then and run hydration and rain dance
Wish + Regen is what mola has, and its amazing for it. And again wasting a slot for rain dance is a big problem as it wants its fourth slot to either be Toxic/Mirror Coat/Knock. It has no room for rain dance. Also the team is most likely stall if using mola might have heal bell to get around the toxic, whereas Pex absorbs t spikes and can switch into toxic
 
Hawlucha shoulnt be nominated to A- rank because all from there mons is just easy ohko by Haw even without SD, just throw this on some terrain and click HJK or acrobatics, just put this on A rank where is his place in my opinion, probably best sweeper which dont care about toxic spikes/spikes/sr, can eat hit from quick attack pinsir and easy setup on def lando with roost on board

more funny is that on A rank is Volcarona which is super weak to SR, cant deal with more bulky mons until dont have specify z move like psychium or buginium, hp ground is rare, and is weak to priority where M Pinsir/Mawile/Fake Out Medi/Lop or Ash Gren i super common in this meta

Hawlucha B+ => A Agree
Volcarona A -> A- Agree
 
Hawlucha shoulnt be nominated to A- rank because all from there mons is just easy ohko by Haw even without SD, just throw this on some terrain and click HJK or acrobatics, just put this on A rank where is his place in my opinion, probably best sweeper which dont care about toxic spikes/spikes/sr, can eat hit from quick attack pinsir and easy setup on def lando with roost on board

more funny is that on A rank is Volcarona which is super weak to SR, cant deal with more bulky mons until dont have specify z move like psychium or buginium, hp ground is rare, and is weak to priority where M Pinsir/Mawile/Fake Out Medi/Lop or Ash Gren i super common in this meta

Hawlucha B+ => A Agree
Volcarona A -> A- Agree
I don’t think you know how to use Volcarona. Setting up on ash greninja is just using volcarona super poorly and blaming it on the mon.
Yes, it does need support, and it does have its checks. But Volcarona has a way to kill all relevant Scarfers on the switch, meaning it’s not like Volcarona can never sweep if the enemy team has scarfers. And by the time priority kills a well played Volcarona, you already killed 2 or three Pokémon, which is more often than not enough for a cleaner to clean. Also Volcarona always runs buginiumz or psychhium z so I’m not sure what your argument is about Volcarona not being strong enough without a z crystal. And while Volcarona mandatates hazard control, defog support is than worth it to wield A mon who wins games all by itself.
Keep Volcarona in A.
 
The fact that Volcorona basically forces teams to run a Scarf mom should prove itself how scary it can be.

As far as a few relevant Scarf Mons. Blacepheon basically needs to run Explosion on order for it to revenge kill Volc after a QD forcing it to sacrifice itself to kill it.
It can easily switch-in or revenge kill Scarf Kartana locked into something like Leaf Blade or Smart Strike.


As far as property goes. M-Medichams and M-Lopunny's fake out will not be enough to OHKO Volc at full HP,. Also M-Lopunny, Meidicham and Pinsir risk gettimg crippled by a burn by revenge-killing Volc due to Flame Body
 
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This is only my first post, so forgive me if I make some mistakes, but I want to defend Alomomola here. I'm not at all saying that this mon deserves a rise, but based on previous comments, I feel that people are underestimating it's capabilities as a wish passer.

I do not feel that Alomomola should drop.

Wish passing in general not only helps in stall, but increases the viability of slow, bulky wallbreakers. It allows these wallbreakers, such as Camerupt and even Chandelure, to make repeated switch-ins and break teams. On a more specific but important sidenote, it also makes pokemon such as Nidoking and Camerupt-Mega quite reliable checks to Koko, which is a common and threatening mon in the current meta.

I understand that it faces a lot of competition with Chansey, who is able to switch in to threatening special attackers like Tapu Koko and Ash-Greninja, which Alomomola usually cannot. Chansey's access to Natural Cure allows it not to care about status, which on the other hand, is a problem for Alomomola. However, it has a higher defense stat and access to Regenerator, and thus, is able to switch into many physical attackers, and sometimes even sweepers, to toxic stall or wish pass. Chansey, due to a low defense stat, is not able to do this. Personally, I feel that Alomomola has more opprotunities to pass wishes than Chansey does due to Regenerator. I do not think I need to go into much detail on why Clefable doesn't outclass Alomomola either. Clefable has access to Unaware, allowing it to switch into many sweepers, while Alomomola has regenerator and more natural bulk, giving it more switch-ins to wallbreakers.

Many people are saying that Toxapex outclasses this thing, which I find odd, as they preform different roles. If anything, Toxapex mostly outclasses Gastrodon, with the exception of its electric immunity. In balanced teams, Toxapex is used more as a wall, while Alomomola is a reliable pivot/softer wall with wish, which I explained the usefulness of above. I do not play stall, but I would imagine that the same differences would be present in stall builds with these two pokemon.

However, an understated niche of Alomomola, in my opinion, is Mirror Coat. This move is the main thing separating itself from the other Wish passers and defensive walls in OU. With that move and Regenerator, Alomomola can take out many threatening mons and checks, such as Blacephalon, Zapdos, and Tapu Lele, who otherwise could easily overwhelm this mon. When this move is used correctly, Alomomola can help pave way for another pokemon to come in and sweep, or act as a greater blanket check to an opposing team. Popular walls and pivots, such as Toxapex and Rotom-W, cannot do such a thing.

The other bulky water-types in B+/A- definitely have more utility coverage than Alomomola with Haze and Defog, making them, at times, more useful pivots. Along with this, they mostly have better overall defensive stats and an immunity to spikes. However, I feel that with what I've stated above, Alomomola does carve itself a decent niche as a defensive pivot, able to aid both stall and balanced teams.

E: I do recognize the growing popularity of attackers such as Bulu and Kartana, which Alomomola cannot face. Thus, I somewhat understand the want to drop this pokemon a rank or two. However, this growth doesn't necessarily decrease Alomomola's viability. Such switch ins can easily be predicted, and the mon can just wish into a counter such as Magnezone/Nidoking.
 
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Nominating Buzzwole -> C / C+ from Unranked

This Mon can safely switch in on a number of common meta threats and proceed to rip open the opponent's team through the use of SubPunch. Mons included:

Buzzwole's most notable counters are
. Fortunately, however, Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir aren't difficult to wear down and Clefable's usage is comparatively low thanks to its competition with many other Fairy types for a team slot. Ice Punch is also an option, which makes most Landorus-T sets set up fodder, but in exchange, it opens Buzzwole up to a number of different checks

Here are two high ladder replays demonstrating Buzzwole's ability to use Mons commonly found on Bulky Offense builds to set up free Substitutes and dish out high damage, if not get outright free kills: First. Second - Have since edited a typo
 
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paoisd

Tournament Banned
i would like to echo the nom of buzzwole up fir basically all the same reasons as above. one thing that TFL didn't really touch upon too much is how it has such a wide movepool and this allows it to run other sets and be unpredictable (sub punch is still the best one though). These other sets include bulky z, offensive z, roost tank, assault vest etc. it also is super benefited by the fact that is a fighting type which is one of the best offensive types right now
 

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First and foremost, some people posting in this thread and throughout the subforum or contacting me on discord about the lack of a VR update should stop. There is no, and never was and never will be, select amount of time between updates. If there are not enough prospective changes, we are not going to force a new slate upon us -- it is more metagame shift based than it is time based and seeing as holidays happened and the metagame is finally starting to slow down after the implementation of USM, it should be no surprise that this thread is simply less in need of urgent changes. Anyone who pesters me, other mods, or other VR Council members about thread updates in the future will be doing so with the risk of post deletion or infraction depending on the context/circumstances -- you have been warned.

Second off, nominations such as the recent Mega Venusaur and Buzzwole ones are not going to be ignored -- not at all. However, they are not being addressed on this most recent slate, which the voting for is now done and tallied. Only nominations that we feel are not particularly relevant to the metagame or ones that are very off-base tend to get ignored, for what it is worth (and if people are unsure as to if this applies to something, feel free to ask me privately and I will gladly discuss). The aforementioned Pokemon will be voted on by the VR Council next time around and I will have it as a discussion point when that update is posted after I wake up and get it written-up tomorrow. For now, I am locking the thread because anything else said will not be taken into consideration for the upcoming slate and a lot of the posts lately have been pretty shaky, so giving it a solid 12-24 hours off while the new slate gets posted is probably for the best.

-OU VR Dictator Finch
 

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