Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

A couple things I'd like to add to the Mane discussion.

A huge advantage of Koko over Mane is that Koko has U-Turn. Meaning it can gain momentum on literally anything. Mane cannot, as Volt is blocked by Electric immunities, meaning Mane essentially wastes a turn if it incorrectly Volts. This is a big reason why I would opt for Koko over Mane.

Secondly, Koko is in A+. Mane is in C+. I feel that pointing out what Koko does better and trying to compare the two is a bit....odd? Saying Koko is better shouldn't necessarily mean Mane can't rise. Reason being that even though they have the same primary job (fast, offensive Electric that will focus on attacking), they both are very different still. Mane has Intimidate and access to great Fire coverage. Meaning it's an Electric Mon that can still work well against Grass mons, which can fit the needs of teams differently than Koko with its other coverage options. If you have a lot of Grass answers, opt for Koko. If you are a little Grass weak, go for the better-suited Mane. Likewise if you're worried about physical offense/set-up, then opt for Mane. If you want better momentum-grabbing, a Dragon answer, and potential stallbreaker than go Koko.

I'm not saying Mane should rise, in fact I think it's fine where it is, but using Koko superiority as a reason not to rise it doesn't make sense given Mane has a couple distinct advantages/differences.
 

bludz

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While Koko fills a similar function to Manectric, I'll agree that a comparison doesn't prevent Mane from rising, since there's already a large gap between them. Instead, I would just take a look at B- rank and question if Manectric is as effective as any of the pokemon there. The answer to me is no, outside of maybe Terrakion which is really pretty niche.

I think Manaphy should drop to B-. It struggles with the rise of AV Bulu and isn't very consistent as a breaker. I just wouldn't put it on par with the other pokemon in B rank like Gyarados or Mega Lati twins, I think it fits more with Mega Heracross and Serperior.

Reuniclus should also drop, IMO. Blacephalon, Tyranitar, and Hoopa are all as good as they've been this generation, and the prevalence of other strong breakers like Kartana just make it a liability in a lot of cases. It still has uses such as checking Hawlucha and immunity to passive damage, but I would argue the current meta is less favorable to it now than it has been in the past.
 

paoisd

Tournament Banned
i think that mega manectric is definitely on par with the things in b- and it is definitely far better than almost if not absolutely everything in c+. the mons in b- are pretty effective but niche and i think that manectric fits perfectly there.
 

Jordy

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-> B
Mew doesn't really face competition from any Pokemon directly but it's really hard to splash on teams right now and it is relatively passive outside of its breaker set (which is severely outclassed by other breakers). I do admit that Mew has a few unique niches which should keep it from dropping any further, for the time being atleast. For example it is capable of running any coverage move that might fit with its team and can use Will-O-Wisp to cripple physically offensive Pokemon, which almost no other Pokemon can do..

-> C+(/B-?)
Thundurus-T is actually in a phenomenal spot as it is, it is able to ruin Balance teams ranging to more offensively oriented teams thanks to its access to Nasty Plot and Agility respectively. Its ability, Volt Absorb, also grants it a few set up opportunities thanks to the surge of Choice Specs Tapu Koko. While the surge of AV Tapu Bulu may seem bad for it, it actually isn't that bad for it, at +2 Thundurus does a decent amount of damage to AV Tapu Bulu and AV Tapu Bulu rarely runs Stone Edge instead of Natures Madness.
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery


Current nominations I agree with.

-> B+ agree
I actually agree with this nomination. I use Gliscor a lot as u may have noticed from my last 2 rmt's and in no game has it ever been deadweight, currently i'm also trying out Taunt Knock Gliscor which is supposed to break stall, and it actually does a decent job at it.

-> A-/A agree
Hawlucha is in a great position right now and very hard to deal with for offense and even balance teams that lack Clefable.

-> A- agree
With the surge of Hawlucha Zapdos got a lot better, it's also capable of walling AV Tapu Bulu which is on the rise as we speak.

-> A+ agree
I completely agree with this nomination, AV Tapu Bulu is very easy to put on teams currently and does a great job at what it is supposed to do.

-> B- disagree
No. this mon simply sees a lot of competition from the most relevant Electric-types right now, it surely has a niche but not big enough to rise, nor is it as consistent as any other Pokemon in B-.

I know there are a lot more nominations but on those I don't have a strong opinion.
 
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From what I see, Mane functions about as effectively as Leaf Storm Serp and TR Staka, 2 notable B- mons. At least Mane isn`t screwed up completely by its checks or counters e.g. Serperior by Heatran and Stakataka by ground types. It doesn`t have a debilitating weakness and can usually just volt switch away; if it can`t then HP Ice solves the problem well. This lends it enough reliability to be in B- among mons like Fini and Tornadus, the latter of which is similar to Mane, packing Heat Wave to deter steel types which would check it and Knock Off or Focus Blast for everything else, rounding it off with a U-turn for pivoting.

Thundurus-T: Yeah, the wallbreaking capabilities of this mon paired with its double dance breaks right through balance teams, which just love to run toxapex, and offensive teams with one agility. Additionally, electricium Z and other z crystals can make Thundurus`s T`s attacks hit like a Tactical Nuclear Bomb, with few OU pokemon resisting both its Z-moves and powerful coverage HP Ice. Once these pokemon are eliminated, Thundurus T can proceed to rip apart the entire team.
 
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-> A- Agree

Zapdos has an unbelievable matchup with the current meta. It’s arguably the best check/counter to so many top tier physical threats, such as landorus, hawlucha, kartana, mega pinsir, and mega scizor. It also checks more than just physical powerhouses, boasting a winning match-up against both S rank pokemon.

Which leads me to:

-> B+ Disagree

I see honestly no real reason to use this mon. It wastes a mega slot, which could (and should) be used on some far superior pokemon. Its only real niche is being a very fast electric type, and even at this the only really relevant mon it outspeeds that koko doesnt is ash-gren. Meanwhile, koko is able to hold items, not take up mega slots, pivot more consistently, and utilize a far stronger damage output. Another reason one may use Manectric is for its coverage options and good physical defense through intimidate. However, both of these roles can be done much better by zapdos, who has not only physical bulk and the same coverage as manectric, but other good utility as well via defog and recovery.
TLDR: There's no real reason to use this mon currently besides extremely niche scenarios, whereas a lot of pokemon in B+ such as Mimikyu or Victini actually have notable reasons to be used in the meta.

edit: oops i meant B- i knew which rank i was talking about cause i mentioned mimi and victimi but i just put +’s lol
 
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-> A- Agree

Zapdos can check many of OU's top threats including Kartana, Lando-T, M-Pinsir, M-Scizor, Ferrothorn, Hawlucha, Celesteela, Zygarde and pretty much else anything with a weakness to Electric or a fear of taking Para. It boasts great coverage with Heat Wave, HP Ice and Discharge, allowing it to be more offensive and pair with other hazard clearers like Tapu Fini, Excadrill, M-Scizor, and Mew - all of whom cover up revenge-killers that Zapdos can't stop like Tapu Koko, Medicham, Tyranitar, and Greninja. Static is an insanely good ability and that alone gives it cause for existence, giving the user a chance to stop Kartana, M-Pinsir, Hawlucha and M-Lopunny without even needing to fire off a single attack. Overall, the current metagame really rewards Zapdos for its combination of versatility, bulk, recovery and offensive presence. Chansey is pretty much the only thing that doesn't fear this thing: every other check (especially Heatran, Kyurem, Magearna, Tyranitar, Tapu Bulu) hates Paralysis and Koko equally despises getting chipped by powered up Discharge or Heat Wave on the switch. Not to mention it can run Defog if you need that. Easy boost if you ask me.
 
I want to make a new nomination to rank a Pokemon:

Dhelmise UR -> C-

What changed?

Dhelmise hasn't seen any usage in SM and rightly so. It's best set was probably AV which wasn't very good and still isn't. In my opinion it's main problem was, that it easily got chipped down and hadn't any good recovery option. But thanks to Move Tutors in USUM it now has access to reliable heal in form of Synthesis, making it a good defensive option.

What does it offer?

At the moment, I think it has a niche as the best defensive spinner in the tier. While a 70/100/90 Bulk certainly isn't the best, it gets the job done. The Typing is pretty nice, giving it resistance to some of the most common Attack-Types like Electric, Ground or Grass.Thanks to this, it can switch in on threats like Zygarde, Landorus, Kartana and Bulu (lacking Knock off), Keldeo, Koko and Mega-Swampert and spin on or damage them. It's typing also allows it to function as a spinblocker, one that can beat Excadrill, the only common spinner in the tier. Most importantly, some of the most seen Hazardsetters loose to it one on one. I already mentioned Lando and Excadrill, but Ferrothorn, even with Knock Off, can't really touch it, Clefable fears Anchorshot and Toxapex may gets 2HKO'ed by Earthquake (though one has to be careful to not get burned). Depending on what your Team needs it can be either physical or specially defensive, but I mainly used a PhysDef set. While Synthesis and Rapid Spin are a must have for it, the other two Moveslots are pretty open. It can run Power Whip, Earthquake, Knock Off, Anchorshot or even Toxic if it wants to.
32 EVs Adamant allow it to always break 248 Hp/ 0 Def +1 Zygarde Subs aswell as 2HKO Pex after Rocks.

Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Def
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Synthesis

What does it Struggle with?

Many things it is supposed to check can beat it, if it has taken prior Damage, or if they have the right Set. It gets obliterated by Z-Fly Lando, and gets 2HKO by Adamant 252 +1 Outrage Zygarde. Knock off being as common as it is annoys it hard and you often have to scout, wether your opponent runs it or not. Even though it is supposed to spin Toxic Spikes away it does'nt like switching in on them, so it is nice to have a Poison Type in the Team as well.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224 SpD Dhelmise: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 224 Def Dhelmise: 148-176 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224 Def Dhelmise: 108-128 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
32+ Atk Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 156-184 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
32+ Atk Dhelmise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This one really shows, how annoying it can be:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681330051
Here it does some stuff in the Lategame (Turn 45):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681291486
Dealing a lot of Damage to Lando:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681287117
 
I want to make a new nomination to rank a Pokemon:

Dhelmise UR -> C-

What changed?

Dhelmise hasn't seen any usage in SM and rightly so. It's best set was probably AV which wasn't very good and still isn't. In my opinion it's main problem was, that it easily got chipped down and hadn't any good recovery option. But thanks to Move Tutors in USUM it now has access to reliable heal in form of Synthesis, making it a good defensive option.

What does it offer?

At the moment, I think it has a niche as the best defensive spinner in the tier. While a 70/100/90 Bulk certainly isn't the best, it gets the job done. The Typing is pretty nice, giving it resistance to some of the most common Attack-Types like Electric, Ground or Grass.Thanks to this, it can switch in on threats like Zygarde, Landorus, Kartana and Bulu (lacking Knock off), Keldeo, Koko and Mega-Swampert and spin on or damage them. It's typing also allows it to function as a spinblocker, one that can beat Excadrill, the only common spinner in the tier. Most importantly, some of the most seen Hazardsetters loose to it one on one. I already mentioned Lando and Excadrill, but Ferrothorn, even with Knock Off, can't really touch it, Clefable fears Anchorshot and Toxapex may gets 2HKO'ed by Earthquake (though one has to be careful to not get burned). Depending on what your Team needs it can be either physical or specially defensive, but I mainly used a PhysDef set. While Synthesis and Rapid Spin are a must have for it, the other two Moveslots are pretty open. It can run Power Whip, Earthquake, Knock Off, Anchorshot or even Toxic if it wants to.
32 EVs Adamant allow it to always break 248 Hp/ 0 Def +1 Zygarde Subs aswell as 2HKO Pex after Rocks.

Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Def
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Synthesis

What does it Struggle with?

Many things it is supposed to check can beat it, if it has taken prior Damage, or if they have the right Set. It gets obliterated by Z-Fly Lando, and gets 2HKO by Adamant 252 +1 Outrage Zygarde. Knock off being as common as it is annoys it hard and you often have to scout, wether your opponent runs it or not. Even though it is supposed to spin Toxic Spikes away it does'nt like switching in on them, so it is nice to have a Poison Type in the Team as well.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224 SpD Dhelmise: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 224 Def Dhelmise: 148-176 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224 Def Dhelmise: 108-128 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
32+ Atk Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 156-184 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
32+ Atk Dhelmise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This one really shows, how annoying it can be:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681330051
Here it does some stuff in the Lategame (Turn 45):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681291486
Dealing a lot of Damage to Lando:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681287117
As much as I love the random wild UR nomination of the week, what keeps Dhelmise from being a poor man’s Starmie? It has bulk and an EQ resistant typing but at least Starmie is arguably more versatile and can soak status, is moderately fast, and can handle most aforementioned threats well enough. (Not a rank starmie post btw)
To avoid finch smiting me for one-liner, agree w/ Zapdos rising cause checks Kart/Pinsir among other mons.
 
Back to the Mane discussion, while Zapdos can fill each one of those roles better than Mane, Mane can fill the middle ground between the two. A defensive Zapdos set lacks ice coverage, raw power, and the pivoting ability of Mane, while offensive Zapdos lacks the bulk from intimidating and takes extra damage from stealth rocks. Both of them are also slower than Mane by a large margin. Of course, taking up a mega slot is a heavy cost, hence why its viability is lower. But B- isn`t much to ask for, with pokemon like Heracross M, Terrakion, and Stakataka in it.
 

Jordy

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Back to the Mane discussion, while Zapdos can fill each one of those roles better than Mane, Mane can fill the middle ground between the two. A defensive Zapdos set lacks ice coverage, raw power, and the pivoting ability of Mane, while offensive Zapdos lacks the bulk from intimidating and takes extra damage from stealth rocks. Both of them are also slower than Mane by a large margin. Of course, taking up a mega slot is a heavy cost, hence why its viability is lower. But B- isn`t much to ask for, with pokemon like Heracross M, Terrakion, and Stakataka in it.
Have you ever considered if these Pokemon should move down instead of Mega Manectric moving up? Mega Manectric is on the same level as most C+ Pokemon and Mega Heracross (this should move down but im too lazy to officially make a nomination rn). Terrakion is pretty meh as it is but recently i've seen it gain a bit more usage and its dual dance set is pretty threatening, leaving me to believe it is fine in B-, for the time being atleast. Then there's Stakataka which is arguably one of the best Pokemon in B- and certainly better then Mega Manectric. I'd also like to say that Mega Manectric doesn't hold as big of a niche as most Pokemon in B- do thus leaving me to believe it should stay in C+.
 
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As much as I love the random wild UR nomination of the week, what keeps Dhelmise from being a poor man’s Starmie? It has bulk and an EQ resistant typing but at least Starmie is arguably more versatile and can soak status, is moderately fast, and can handle most aforementioned threats well enough. (Not a rank starmie post btw)
I haven't played much with Starmie recently, so take what I say about it with a grain of salt.
The problem with Starmie is, that it can't really switch in on some of the most common Hazardsetters, it is supposed to beat. Excadrill 2HKO's it, Ferrothorn can oneshot it. Lando can just U-Turn out and take half of Starmies HP with it, which is in my opinion the biggest problem Starmie faces . Dhelmise can take a bit of a beating before it has to go for recovery, giving it time to spin. It also has the ability to check Koko and Kartana, arguably two of the greatest threats in OU. Starmie simply can't do that.
 
I haven't played much with Starmie recently, so take what I say about it with a grain of salt.
The problem with Starmie is, that it can't really switch in on some of the most common Hazardsetters, it is supposed to beat. Excadrill 2HKO's it, Ferrothorn can oneshot it. Lando can just U-Turn out and take half of Starmies HP with it, which is in my opinion the biggest problem Starmie faces . Dhelmise can take a bit of a beating before it has to go for recovery, giving it time to spin. It also has the ability to check Koko and Kartana, arguably two of the greatest threats in OU. Starmie simply can't do that.
I'm not saying Starmie should be ranked, but these are just silly points. Unless Lando predicts a U-Turn, then Starmie wrecks it. An offensive Starmie is able to either OHKO Lando with Ice Beam or Hydro Pump, a defensive one takes half its health with Scald, which can also cripple it with a burn. Excadrill is OHKO by hydro pump also hates scald (252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 554-655 (153.4 - 181.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- 12.5% chance to OHKO; 0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 246-290 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and can't OHKO any starmie build. Yes, Ferrothorn causes it problems, but Lando and Exca are at least checked by Starmie.
 
Nomination:
A -> A-

Volcarona has been suffering for a while now with Tyranitar and Heatran gaining in popularity and ultrafast scarfers like Blace, Kartana and Greninja seeing enough use to make +1 Volcarona afraid at 50%. Additionally, Koko/Lucha cores are now popular, Volc can't do anything productive against rain (unless it runs subpar Giga Drain, opening itself up to Toxapex) and last, oh yeah, there's Toxapex to Haze you and ruin your sweep. Not even to mention that Chansey exists to scare you out or Toxic you or set up Rocks and altogether piss you off. Even with more Defoggers to team up with, Volcarona's fatal weakness to Stealth Rock just sucks and it can become a huge undertaking keep Hazards off the field. Unlike Pinsir, however, Volcarona doesn't boast late game priority to make up for its weaknesses - it's almost a one-time setup, particularly given its reliance on Z-moves - stealing opportunities from other more worthy Z users. It's obviously not total trash, but it's not the terror it once was, and it deserves a drop.
 

Jordy

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-> A- disagree

Volcarona has been suffering for a while now with Tyranitar and Heatran gaining in popularity and ultrafast scarfers like Blace, Kartana and Greninja
While yes, Volcarona does have to choose its coverage move to hit either ttar or heatran, have u ever considered that probably its best teammate right now in Rotom-W, is capable of threatening both directly? I'd also like to say that Kartana can't threaten Volcarona reliably without Volcarona having taken prior damage, Greninja also isnt common since Greninja as a whole is not common rn.
Additionally, Koko/Lucha cores are now popular, Volc can't do anything productive against rain (unless it runs subpar Giga Drain, opening itself up to Toxapex) and last, oh yeah, there's Toxapex to Haze you and ruin your sweep.
KokoLucha may seem worse for Volcarona then it actually is since Psychic on Tapu Koko's Volt Switch or U-turn (This can be seen here) deters Hawlucha from effectively abusing Volcarona. Toxapex is indeed a nuisance but Tapu Lele is a great partner as it is for Volcarona currently.
Not even to mention that Chansey exists to scare you out or Toxic you or set up Rocks and altogether piss you off.
Because Chansey sees so much usage currently.
Even with more Defoggers to team up with, Volcarona's fatal weakness to Stealth Rock just sucks and it can become a huge undertaking keep Hazards off the field.
While yes, having to keep Stealth Rock off the field is kind of annoying, considering the reliability of Gliscor and Rotom-W, this should not be too big of a concern.
it's almost a one-time setup, particularly given its reliance on Z-moves - stealing opportunities from other more worthy Z users.
Have you ever heard of just firing off an attack to weaken the opponent and sweep later? I assume not.
It's obviously not total trash, but it's not the terror it once was, and it deserves a drop.
Disagree, Volcarona is great right now and one of the best Pokemon in the current A rank, it's very underprepped for as is and the meta is relatively kind to it.

While Volcarona isnt exactly meta defining it is sure as hell a force to be reckoned with, which is why it should stay in A.

If you want to test out Volcarona more I can provide you with a team that i have had good success with here.
 
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Nomination:
A -> A-

Volcarona has been suffering for a while now with Tyranitar and Heatran gaining in popularity and ultrafast scarfers like Blace, Kartana and Greninja seeing enough use to make +1 Volcarona afraid at 50%. Additionally, Koko/Lucha cores are now popular, Volc can't do anything productive against rain (unless it runs subpar Giga Drain, opening itself up to Toxapex) and last, oh yeah, there's Toxapex to Haze you and ruin your sweep. Not even to mention that Chansey exists to scare you out or Toxic you or set up Rocks and altogether piss you off. Even with more Defoggers to team up with, Volcarona's fatal weakness to Stealth Rock just sucks and it can become a huge undertaking keep Hazards off the field. Unlike Pinsir, however, Volcarona doesn't boast late game priority to make up for its weaknesses - it's almost a one-time setup, particularly given its reliance on Z-moves - stealing opportunities from other more worthy Z users. It's obviously not total trash, but it's not the terror it once was, and it deserves a drop.
I don't think anything has changed signifigantly to merit a Volc drop. It's a meta-defining threat that makes lots of teams think about if they can run a sub-100 scarfer without getting steamrolled by this thing (and makes a bunch of scarfers run sub-optimal shit like Explosion on Blacephalon and Stone Edge on Keldeo). Volcorona picks its own checks and counters (unlike much of A-), as sub Swarm Buginium can even break Chansey and Psychium and HP Ground both exist. If anything, the Naganadel ban would have reduced the prevelance of Ttar (particularly AV) and Heatran. I don't really think you pointed out anything in the meta that merits a drop, everything in A/A+ is pretty stable at the moment. A- is really underselling it. I think Pinsir deserves the rise but I'm sure that will happen in time.

The only major recent meta shift affecting Volc is the increase in AV Tapu Bulu, who provides much needed recovery and reduces Landourus earthquakes (regardless of if it is your Bulu or theirs). It also switches into Ash-Greninja somewhat safely, all of which is good for Volc.
 
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Yeah in retrospect I should've touched on more things than just that one topic in the mane discussion. Oh well.

So this isn't a useless one-liner
Hawlucha B+ ---> A- Agree
There's not all that much that hasn't already been said about this mon. With minimal support, this thing can sweep. Nothing resists both of it's dual stabs besides Koko (and like dedenne but come on) and even that gets easily 2HKOed at +2. While there are things that do check it, like defensive Lando-t and clefable, most of these checks can't even KO it in return besides clef which has to be unaware to not get 2HKOed. Overall, this pokemon is in a really good spot with a splashable partner in Koko meaning that it doesn't need niche support which is fairly big, as the player can be like "oh I have an extra slot, Koko and entry hazards, I'll just throw hawlucha in there." While you won't get the fullest potential you can still get great results with this pokemon, making it fairly splashable for a sweeper (For a sweeper. This pokemon is by no means a mon you can throw on any team and get good results with)
 
(Infernape)
Unranked -> C-/C

Infernape is extremely underrated right now in my opinion. Having an good dual STAB combination is fire and fighting which is able to hit the majority of the biggest threats in the tier for super effective damage. The ability to run a mixed set is also beneficial as it can utilize overheat, then potentially use physical moves. Having a decent speed tier and access to strong STABs in overheat and close combat it can act as a good revenge killer, late game sweeper and even break bulky mons such as Chansey, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and Scizor. Infernape has a niche as a fast fire type attacker in OU not weak to stealth rocks. With the constant threat of rocks Infernape doesn't need support from a defogger that Volcarona, Charizard X/Y and Blacephalon need. It also has the capability to reliable get past common fire type checks such as Toxapex and Heatran with thunder punch/earthquake/close combat.

My ideal coverage move for Infernape is thunder punch. With it, Infernape can threaten water types such as Pelipper, Toxapex, Mantine and Keldo (on the switch) which would otherwise wall Infernape outright. This is greatly aided by Tapu Koko support. Thunder punch is great for a surprise KO, especially since Infernape is not a very popular mon right now. This makes it a surprisingly good answer to rain, being able to KO the main rain setter, Pelipper, early into the game.
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Electric Terrain: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 380-452 (101.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 302-359 (93.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape has another great niche with access to priority in vacuum wave which is able to OHKO Kartana, a prevalent threat in the tier, and revenge Greninja and Mega-Lopunny after some prior damage. It can also deal 35% to Mega-Gyarados. Infernape is great for removing the opponents speed control and can act as a decent support mon when necessary.
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 307-361 (118.5 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 187-221 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 133-159 (49 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 104-125 (31.4 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape is by no means great, it is threatened faster attackers and scarfers in can't KO with vacuum wave and with fragile defenses at best, it is easily worn down and KOed. However, with the right support it can fill multiple roles and is definitely not dead weight.

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 538-634 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 624-738 (177.2 - 209.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 239-282 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 359-424 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 408-484 (104.3 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 298-352 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- possible KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 196-231 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 356-425 (103.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Vacuum Wave
- Thunder Punch
- Overheat
- Close Combat

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682165253
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682168158 (This one shows Infernapes usefulness against a SD Kartana which would have otherwise swept me)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682173199

So I'm nominating Infernape for C-/C as its easily on the same level as mons such as Qwilfish/Lycanroc-Dusk in C- and even Muk-A and Mega-Altaria in C.
 
-> A- disagree

While yes, Volcarona does have to choose its coverage move to hit either ttar or heatran, have u ever considered that probably its best teammate right now in Rotom-W, is capable of threatening both directly? I'd also like to say that Kartana can't threaten Volcarona reliably without Volcarona having taken prior damage, Greninja also isnt common since Greninja as a whole is not common rn.
KokoLucha may seem worse for Volcarona then it actually is since Psychic on Tapu Koko's Volt Switch or U-turn (This can be seen here) deters Hawlucha from effectively abusing Volcarona. Toxapex is indeed a nuisance but Tapu Lele is a great partner as it is for Volcarona currently.

Because Chansey sees so much usage currently.

While yes, having to keep Stealth Rock off the field is kind of annoying, considering the reliability of Gliscor and Rotom-W, this should not be too big of a concern.

Have you ever heard of just firing off an attack to weaken the opponent and sweep later? I assume not.

Disagree, Volcarona is great right now and one of the best Pokemon in the current A rank, it's very underprepped for as is and the meta is relatively kind to it.

While Volcarona isnt exactly meta defining it is sure as hell a force to be reckoned with, which is why it should stay in A.

If you want to test out Volcarona more I can provide you with a team that i have had good success with here.
First, I agree with some of what you said, but I still don't think it merits the A ranking. Rotom-W is niche, it gets worn down super easily and is mad predictable, and Gliscor is like Landorus-T with crappy offensive presence and no real ability to switch in on high-powered Physical or Special attackers. If you look at calcs, you see that tons of common threats destroy Volcarona after prior damage and/or hazards.

Ash-Gren checks but doesn't guarantee a kill without hazards:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 216-258 (69.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zygarde checks firium Z, not Bug:
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 192-226 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 113-134 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 243-286 (67.8 - 79.8%) -- not a KO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 459-541 (128.2 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed KO

Heatran obviously can't do shit against HP Ground, Tyranitar can't do shit against Savage Spin out (or Bug Buzz in general), but does help to wreck the Sub Bug with sand:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 288-340 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Blace can't OHKO unless Rocks:
252 SpA Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 175-207 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pinsir can't OHKO but can do some damage:
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 254-302 (81.6 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Second, I'd like to see where you're getting your usage stats from, since smogon.com/stats hasn't been updated in months apparently. Those months show Volcarona being used at somewhere between 3% and 5%, putting it near the "30-50th most used Pokemon in OU" marker. Again, I'd prefer to talk with current numbers, because I think I'd be able to convince you that:

1. Top players don't use Volcarona as much as you think they do (hence it's not as powerful or meta defining as you think)
2. Top players don't use Rotom-W very much, it's a niche fogger that doesn't have much of a place in OU
3. Top players do use Chansey, and in considerably high numbers compared to any other Pokemon you mentioned.

EDIT: using your team now, will report back
 

Jordy

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What you said early on is fair and i can see where ur coming from but this.
Second, I'd like to see where you're getting your usage stats from, since smogon.com/stats hasn't been updated in months apparently. Those months show Volcarona being used at somewhere between 3% and 5%, putting it near the "30-50th most used Pokemon in OU" marker. Again, I'd prefer to talk with current numbers, because I think I'd be able to convince you that:

1. Top players don't use Volcarona as much as you think they do (hence it's not as powerful or meta defining as you think)
2. Top players don't use Rotom-W very much, it's a niche fogger that doesn't have much of a place in OU
3. Top players do use Chansey, and in considerably high numbers compared to any other Pokemon you mentioned.
I NEVER claimed that it gained much usage, like I actually never did, i dont think it has much usage because it does not. I even said that Volcarona is not meta defining, meta defining would be that it gains a high amount of usage and that it is very consistent (which it is not). Top players dont use rotom-w much because Volcarona isnt used much, saying that rotom-w has no place in ou is a straight lie, its clearly ranked B+, which does indicate that it is above average. No, i dont know what high ladder is for you but Chansey does not see much usage at all.
 
What you said early on is fair and i can see where ur coming from but this.

I NEVER claimed that it gained much usage, like I actually never did, i dont think it has much usage because it does not. I even said that Volcarona is not meta defining, meta defining would be that it gains a high amount of usage and that it is very consistent (which it is not). Top players dont use rotom-w much because Volcarona isnt used much, saying that rotom-w has no place in ou is a straight lie, its clearly ranked B+, which does indicate that it is above average. No, i dont know what high ladder is for you but Chansey does not see much usage at all.
I didn't say that Rotom-W has no place in OU, I said it's niche, it has glaring downsides (unlike other foggers), and that it's not used very much because of this. My point about usage, which got a little twisted around on both of our ends was this: "It's ironic that you're saying Chansey doesn't get used when it's way more common to see an opponent with Chansey on their team than Gliscor/Rotom-W/Volcarona." Of course, numbers aren't everything, but the latest usage (from October so not the best) here/here says that Volcarona's pretty much the least used A-Rank available.

From "the rules":
A rank Pokémon are excellent at what they do, but they may have some small flaws, such as a small dependence on team support or potential to give free turns, but they aren't outclassed by other Pokémon.
I'm essentially saying "Yeah Volc is the best Quiver Dance sweeper, maybe the best Special set-up sweeper, and really really good if your opponent is completely unprepared, but weakness to Stealth Rock, free turns given to AV Ttar, Pex or Heatran, and reliance on Defoggers as teammates, its need to run a Z-item (in terms of opportunity cost) really limit the possibilities for it to well in the current meta."
 

Jordy

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and really really good if your opponent is completely unprepared,
Thats the point of using it, nobody is prepareed for it, that is exactly why it's good.
free turns given to AV Ttar, Pex or Heatran
This is simply not true, Volcarona chooses its checks, it has ways around all 3 of these Pokemon. I'd also like to note that AV Ttar usage is like 0 and should be 0 for now and ever (as long as naga doesnt dick us down again).
 

Leo

@FMG shut
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I didn't say that Rotom-W has no place in OU, I said it's niche, it has glaring downsides (unlike other foggers), and that it's not used very much because of this. My point about usage, which got a little twisted around on both of our ends was this: "It's ironic that you're saying Chansey doesn't get used when it's way more common to see an opponent with Chansey on their team than Gliscor/Rotom-W/Volcarona." Of course, numbers aren't everything, but the latest usage (from October so not the best) here/here says that Volcarona's pretty much the least used A-Rank available.

From "the rules":


I'm essentially saying "Yeah Volc is the best Quiver Dance sweeper, maybe the best Special set-up sweeper, and really really good if your opponent is completely unprepared, but weakness to Stealth Rock, free turns given to AV Ttar, Pex or Heatran, and reliance on Defoggers as teammates, its need to run a Z-item (in terms of opportunity cost) really limit the possibilities for it to well in the current meta."
Hey man, not rly looking to get into this Volcarona argument or further derail the thread but in general those "rank descriptions" are terrible arguments as they're very unspecific and rarely completely accurate so you should avoid using those. As an aside, this is going a bit too far imo and I think everything that had to be said has been said and the vr council will consider both sides of the argument so its prolly best to just leave it at this and move on to another mon
 
(Infernape)
Unranked -> C-/C

Infernape is extremely underrated right now in my opinion. Having an good dual STAB combination is fire and fighting which is able to hit the majority of the biggest threats in the tier for super effective damage. The ability to run a mixed set is also beneficial as it can utilize overheat, then potentially use physical moves. Having a decent speed tier and access to strong STABs in overheat and close combat it can act as a good revenge killer, late game sweeper and even break bulky mons such as Chansey, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and Scizor. Infernape has a niche as a fast fire type attacker in OU not weak to stealth rocks. With the constant threat of rocks Infernape doesn't need support from a defogger that Volcarona, Charizard X/Y and Blacephalon need. It also has the capability to reliable get past common fire type checks such as Toxapex and Heatran with thunder punch/earthquake/close combat.

My ideal coverage move for Infernape is thunder punch. With it, Infernape can threaten water types such as Pelipper, Toxapex, Mantine and Keldo (on the switch) which would otherwise wall Infernape outright. This is greatly aided by Tapu Koko support. Thunder punch is great for a surprise KO, especially since Infernape is not a very popular mon right now. This makes it a surprisingly good answer to rain, being able to KO the main rain setter, Pelipper, early into the game.
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Electric Terrain: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mantine: 380-452 (101.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 302-359 (93.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape has another great niche with access to priority in vacuum wave which is able to OHKO Kartana, a prevalent threat in the tier, and revenge Greninja and Mega-Lopunny after some prior damage. It can also deal 35% to Mega-Gyarados. Infernape is great for removing the opponents speed control and can act as a decent support mon when necessary.
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 307-361 (118.5 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 187-221 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 133-159 (49 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 104-125 (31.4 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Infernape is by no means great, it is threatened faster attackers and scarfers in can't KO with vacuum wave and with fragile defenses at best, it is easily worn down and KOed. However, with the right support it can fill multiple roles and is definitely not dead weight.

168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 538-634 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 624-738 (177.2 - 209.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 239-282 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 359-424 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 408-484 (104.3 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 298-352 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- possible KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-2 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 196-231 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 356-425 (103.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
-4 88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 168 Atk / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Vacuum Wave
- Thunder Punch
- Overheat
- Close Combat

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682165253
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682168158 (This one shows Infernapes usefulness against a SD Kartana which would have otherwise swept me)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-682173199

So I'm nominating Infernape for C-/C as its easily on the same level as mons such as Qwilfish/Lycanroc-Dusk in C- and even Muk-A and Mega-Altaria in C.
I completely disagree with this nomination. Infernape can't do anything to Araquanid, All of the Tapus, and Toxapex with it's fighting STAB. There is hardly a reason to even run this over Terrakion, who doesn't get fucked over by Toxapex and has better bulk. It's just outclassed and doesn't hit hard enough to be ranked rn
 
I didn't say that Rotom-W has no place in OU, I said it's niche, it has glaring downsides (unlike other foggers), and that it's not used very much because of this. My point about usage, which got a little twisted around on both of our ends was this: "It's ironic that you're saying Chansey doesn't get used when it's way more common to see an opponent with Chansey on their team than Gliscor/Rotom-W/Volcarona." Of course, numbers aren't everything, but the latest usage (from October so not the best) here/here says that Volcarona's pretty much the least used A-Rank available.

From "the rules":


I'm essentially saying "Yeah Volc is the best Quiver Dance sweeper, maybe the best Special set-up sweeper, and really really good if your opponent is completely unprepared, but weakness to Stealth Rock, free turns given to AV Ttar, Pex or Heatran, and reliance on Defoggers as teammates, its need to run a Z-item (in terms of opportunity cost) really limit the possibilities for it to well in the current meta."
Wasn't Volcorona nearly considered to be moved up to A+ just a few weeks ago? Volcorona is fine in A due how dangerous it is. How it can easily blow up entire teams unprepared for it or that do not have definitive check for it. . Usaually needing to use run aZ-Crystal is hardly a flaw when is one of the most deadly users of Z-moves in OU. With Psychium Z to hit Toxapex or Firium/Bugium Z to just be a straight up nuke and severely damage Pokemon that resist either after a QD
You also forgot how many relevant OU mons it can essentially get a free QD on

M-Scizor,
Ferrothorn unless it runs the very uncommon T- Wave
Magnezone
AV Bulu unless they carry Stone edge, which us becoming less common on Bulu.
MAYBE unboosted Kartana , or if it's locked into into a move on a choice set.
Even Toxapex and Heatran if it carries the needed move to attack them


So yea Volcarona may not be completely meta-defining or quite A+ worthy. But its more than deserving of being in A
Anyway I can see the mods want to end this Volc talk, so I don't say anymore
 
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