Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Kartana going to S rank seems hot rn and i really like the free likes i can get from it. (THANKS IN ADVANCE!)

-> S disagree
I do believe that Kartana the best Pokemon in A+, and it can definitely be compared to Landorus-T and Toxapex in terms of effectiveness, it is very splashable, with the recent exploration of Life Orb I think Kartana got even better, Life Orb boosted Knock Off basically breaks what dark-z does at +2 and a boosted Sacred Sword is nothing to laugh at either. Its Choice Scarf set is arguably the best scarfer in the tier considering how good it is at what it does, the role compression that it provides is very nice, it works very well as a Knock Off user and is a surprisingly effective Defogger. However, its sets do all have flaws that can be exploited, SD is relatively lacking in speed and is prone to being revenge killed. Scarf is very hard to pivot around but once its locked itself into a move u should have an answer to that specific move, always.

Despite this, I don't think that Kartana should be S rank, and I know that what im going to propose is very frowned upon but I'd like to propose for a viability ranking system such as ubers:

this gives an easier insight to players on how viable the Pokemon is compared to the other Pokemon in [said sub-rank] rank. We could also make an S- rank but, that is really stupid lmao.
Tbh yea I've been thinking about this for a while now. What's the point of having them in alphabetical order when they could be organized in terms of viability? It makes a lot more sense and would encourage more discussion than with the current system. I personally think all tiers should do this, and there is really no point of them being in alphabetical order, I know that the VR mods are not going to do this but it would be helpful
 
Tbh yea I've been thinking about this for a while now. What's the point of having them in alphabetical order when they could be organized in terms of viability? It makes a lot more sense and would encourage more discussion than with the current system. I personally think all tiers should do this, and there is really no point of them being in alphabetical order, I know that the VR mods are not going to do this but it would be helpful
Tbh I feel like there are already enough horrendous posts in this thread arguing between subranks, I don’t really wanna wade through a million posts arguing over the order of those subranks when the difference is generally minimal. If the difference between the best and worst mon in a subrank is that dramatic one of them should probably rise/drop.
 
Let’s be real here, Kartana is a fairly one dimensional pokemon, having only two real viable sets. While it can be anyone’s guess as to what moves the Kartana is running, it’s still pretty easy to determine what set a Kartana is running based on the team, which already lets an opponent know how to deal with the kart. Yes it’s pretty powerful, and left unchecked can sweep teams, but it’s a pain to get the first beast boost. I absolutely feel that Kartana is an A+ mon, but just not an S mon at the moment. And it certainly isn’t the level of Lando-T (who’s really splashable) and Toxapex (the best wall ever created).

Also maybe let’s calm down a bit, it’s just ranking noms, no need for insult or harsh words
 
the only real, stated argument I've seen against kartana is it's lack of versatility, but when has that ever stopped a mon from being S? toxapex is literally the face of ou and has used one main set since its been introduced, and the only changes its seen were minimal such as ev changes or a slight moveset change. to say kartana can't be S because of that reason is viewing things in the wrong way.

before choice scarf even got this popular with kartana, it was hailed for the effectiveness of swords dance and skyrocketed through the ranks. with the addition of a great scarf set and an effective band set, I'd say kartana's versatility has actually improved from just being a swords dancer. and the point about being "revenge killed easily" is a tricky point to use. the only mon's that can actually revenge kill a healthy kartana are fast / scarfed special attackers or attackers that hit hard and super effectively. but that sentiment can literally be applied to almost every offensive pokemon in the tier, which overall makes it a weak point that isn't unique to just kartana.

kartana simply shreds through so many teams and takes advantage of and benefits from some the most popular pokemon atm. its more or less the best scarfer in the tier. the few flaws it does have are negligible at best because they aren't unique to kartana and hasn't stopped other mons from being as good as they are. just because it doesn't have 6 sets or check 85% of the tier, it doesn't make it any less of an S rank when a vast amount of the tier just straight up crumble to it. kartana is a definitive S rank mon at this point, and I only see it gradually getting better as time passes.
 
I vote for Hoopa-c to be at least b+ rank. The set I use is sub, calm mind/nasty plot, shadow ball, focus blast (berry as an item) and it 6-0s stall without av tangrowth or weavile and sets up on fat mons. Its gotten me to the high 1900s so it definitely works. Not to mention it does really well against trick room teams.

high ladder replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-687964614, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-687042425, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-686621105, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681818362,

lost this game due to hax but it shows how hoopa does well even against hyper offense : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-680681257
 
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I vote for Hoopa-c to be at least b+ rank. The set I use is sub, calm mind/nasty plot, shadow ball, focus blast (berry as an item) and it 6-0s stall without av tangrowth or weavile and sets up on fat mons. Its gotten me to the high 1900s so it definitely works. Not to mention it does really well against trick room teams.

high ladder replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-687964614, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-687042425, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-686621105,https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681818362,

lost this game due to hax but it shows how hoopa does well even against hyper offense :https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-680681257
Cool nom. Cool teams too - I love it when I see unpopular mons being used on the high ladder. That said, you’re massively overselling hoopa-c IMO. Being able to 6-0 stall (sometimes) is hardly common ever since the duggy ban killed it, and its physical bulk is obviously lacking. Lastly, and most importantly, why would I ever use this over its unbound counterpart? Its typing is worse in most cases (those 4x weaknesses to dark and ghost really hurt), it’s slower, it doesn’t hit as hard, and it’s more predictable in the sense that it can only run a special set. Its only advantages (at least pertaining to your set - it can be an ok trick room setter) are a stronger shadow ball, lack of a u turn and fairy weakness, and I guess the ability to switch into predicted fighting and normal moves but that’s risky anyway. Those advantages can matter, but this is a c-rank mon at best.
 

Gary

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Despite this, I don't think that Kartana should be S rank, and I know that what im going to propose is very frowned upon but I'd like to propose for a viability ranking system such as ubers:

this gives an easier insight to players on how viable the Pokemon is compared to the other Pokemon in [said sub-rank] rank. We could also make an S- rank but, that is really stupid lmao.
Tbh I don't think it's possible for something like OU. Ubers can kinda get away with it because their rankings are usually more stable while OU is constantly changing and shifting in viability due to all these major tours like OST SPL Snake WCOP happening at some point usually. The OU VR rankings would have to be shifted around potentially several times a week, on top of keeping the entire OU VR update.

The Ubers VR is also extremely slow with updates despite having a pretty static meta. The OU VR updates sometimes weekly. Getting the entire OU VR to vote on a single slate is a process, so I can't even fathom trying to get everyone on board with wanting to constantly vote on shifting shit around. Like yeah I know I'm not on the VR council anymore and could end up looking like a complete jackass if this ends up happening, but considering I ran this for quite some time and had this idea brought to me on multiple occasions with almost the entire VR council being against it every time.

Also even if a rule is made where people can't talk about shifting shit around in here, people will still bitch and moan and post about it in here no matter how many times it's brought up not to. It would not be possible to have healthy discussion on inner rankings ever. It's just sooo fucking subjective. All discussion on it would have to be completely restricted in this thread, and would completely just be a 100% council thing only that the community would not be able to be apart of. That would also open another can of worms with people in this thread who enjoy posting about how corrupt and elite the VR council is for not allowing people to discuss something because they just can't help themselves.

Obviously I don't have power over this anymore, but I'm just throwing my two cents in from past experiences when dealing with the concept of inner sub-ranks. I know Finch was definitely in agreement that it would be hella annoying to keep that going, and even if he had a change of heart I really can't see the rest of the council wanting to either. The only ranks I think that could afford having subranks are S just so Lando is literally always at the top, and maybe A+. Anything farther than that it would just be a nightmare to maintain. There is a reason Ubers has been the only tier that's kept up with ranking via subranks and the other tiers that used to do it such as RU and UU stopped and went back to alphabetical. It's cancer. It doesn't work with large scale tiers. Ubers has a stable meta with a smaller community and now less major tour involvement compared to OU being the literal centerpiece of Smogon.
 
Cool nom. Cool teams too - I love it when I see unpopular mons being used on the high ladder. That said, you’re massively overselling hoopa-c IMO. Being able to 6-0 stall (sometimes) is hardly common ever since the duggy ban killed it, and its physical bulk is obviously lacking. Lastly, and most importantly, why would I ever use this over its unbound counterpart? Its typing is worse in most cases (those 4x weaknesses to dark and ghost really hurt), it’s slower, it doesn’t hit as hard, and it’s more predictable in the sense that it can only run a special set. Its only advantages (at least pertaining to your set - it can be an ok trick room setter) are a stronger shadow ball, lack of a u turn and fairy weakness, and I guess the ability to switch into predicted fighting and normal moves but that’s risky anyway. Those advantages can matter, but this is a c-rank mon at best.
To answer, theyre just different mons man. You stated a lot of the advantages lmao, but stall is very common, as well as fairy types. It also completely is not afraid of any chansey and will set up for days on mons that hoopa-u will lose to. For example, magearna, tapu lele, chansey, lando-t, etc. The ghost typing in this meta is better. Furthermore, anything thatll kill hoopa will usually also kill hoopa -u....... soo......

heres a few sets that it can run - z ghost, scarf physical, assault vest attacker, stall killer, spdef wall.
sidenote: its actually not predictable as it has the exact same movepool as hoopa u (minus hf). and even so, being predictable isnt auto-bad at all. half of ou is damn near predictable. Especially in the fat mons. like just look at the movesets for 1825, most of the shit is the same
 
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To answer, theyre just different mons man. You stated a lot of the advantages lmao, but stall is very common, as well as fairy types. It also completely is not afraid of any chansey and will set up for days on mons that hoopa-u will lose to. For example, magearna, tapu lele, chansey, lando-t, etc. The ghost typing in this meta is better. Furthermore, anything thatll kill hoopa will usually also kill hoopa -u....... soo......

heres a few sets that it can run - z ghost, scarf physical, assault vest attacker, stall killer, spdef wall.
sidenote: its actually not predictable as it has the exact same movepool as hoopa u (minus hf). and even so, being predictable isnt auto-bad at all. half of ou is damn near predictable. Especially in the fat mons. like just look at the movesets for 1825, most of the shit is the same
Fair enough on some of these points. I overlooked that it can easily beat chansey, which truly is a boon for a special attacker. Being able to set up on mag (AV) and tapu lele (non-specs) is also nice.

To counter, though, I don't know how you think it will set up on lando as even defensive EQ does like 80. I know they're different mons technically, but you have to admit they're quite similar and hoopa-u is superior in most circumstances. Finally, being predictable isn't auto-bad obviously, but it IS a detriment that hoopa-u doesn't have (at the very least it is MORE predictable than hoopa-u).

I like the nom, and I do believe hoopa-c has a niche in OU. I maintain that hoopa belongs somewhere in the C ranks, however.
 

Finchinator

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Gonna have to say that I agree with Kartana to S rank. I think that it has clearly established itself as one of the premier offensive threats in the tier and I personally believe it even stands out among that crowd. The sheer amount of defensive counterplay to Kartana is so small in itself that no matter how pitiful the special bulk Kartana has, it is bound to be a threat with the utilization of Z moves and its high base speed. In conjunction with all of that, the recent AV Tapu Bulu trends make the Scarf set as potent as ever when the two are used in conjunction with each other. I feel that most of the main points have been established on both sides, but I implore users who oppose this rise to look at how threatening Kartana is compared to the other offensive threats in A+. Ash Greninja and Tapu Koko, for example, are both top tier Pokemon and hit hard while having a lot go for them, but each has pretty set-in-stone counterplay that they run into fairly often and while there are ways around that, especially through the means of team support, it is still much more than what can be said for Kartana, who really is only countered by like PDef Celesteela and a small handful of fairly uncommon Pokemon. The consistent impact on gameplay that Kartana has, even if it is not a sure thing to sweep, is just so valuable as it is always making progress in games and it is something you have to account for moreso than others in battle if you do not wish to get cleaned or have your defensive backbone broken through. All in all, Kartana seems like a clear candidate for S rank and I feel it stands our from every Pokemon in A+ in terms of overall viability outside of maybe Heatran (who, imo, you can also argue to go S rank, but perhaps that is a discussion for another day as I do not want people discussing it rn).
 
I know this a few posts old, but it seems to be the counter-argument to S with the most support. And in general has a statement I'd like to talk about in this and future noms. Namely: "it's nowhere near as bad as Naganadel was"

All this means is that Kartana isn't ban-worthy, which I wholeheartedly agree with. As an argument not to raise something, it's kind of shoddy and nonsensical. By that logic Lando-T shouldn't be S because it's not as bad as Primal-Groudon. S doesn't mean ban-worthy. S also doesn't mean that it completely breaks a meta, like a Naganadel.

In the future, I feel like using "this Mon shouldn't rise cause it's not as bad as [insert Ubers Mon]" should not be used or taken seriously.

All that being said, I am undecided on Kartana but would lean slightly to a rise.
The reason why I used Naganadel as an argument was that it was a recent USUM mon that was S rank before it got banned (Really I think it should have been the one case of the use of S+ because it was so busted but that's a different discussion entirely). I guess I could of used Magearna, but it's been a while since that was S rank in the first place.
 
I vote for Hoopa-c to be at least b+ rank. The set I use is sub, calm mind/nasty plot, shadow ball, focus blast (berry as an item) and it 6-0s stall without av tangrowth or weavile and sets up on fat mons. Its gotten me to the high 1900s so it definitely works. Not to mention it does really well against trick room teams.

high ladder replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-687964614, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-687042425, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-686621105,https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-681818362,

lost this game due to hax but it shows how hoopa does well even against hyper offense :https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-680681257
I am not entirely against ranking Hoopa c, but this set seems to be outclassed by Sub calm mind Blacephalon, who also 6 v 0s Stall, as well as being faster and stronger. The only real advantage I can think of is Hoopa C beating Tyranitar and not using the z crystal slot, but in return Blacephalon beats Av magearna, and almost every Pokémon has a niche as small as not taking up a z crystal slot.
What does this Hoopa set have to make it worth using over Blacephalon? There isn’t anything I can think of.
 

lydian

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Lemme drop my two cents on the Kartana topic:


Kartana to S: Slightly Disagree

I can definitely see where people are coming from with this nomination, but in all honesty, I simply think Kartana is not quite S rank material yet. I just feel like, when compared to Landorus-T and Toxapex, at least it just doesn't seem to have these S rank characteristics, it is not as meta-defining, not as splashable, and not as consistent as both of our current S ranks. Kartana is just in this weird spot where it would be the best mon in 'A+', but the worst one in 'S', and at least, by my point of view, Kartana is more towards 'A+' than 'S' at the moment. Both of it's sets in Swords Dance and Choice Scarf have rather exploitable weakness that don't translate to a S rank rise in my eyes. Sure, Landorus-T and Toxapex also have exploitable weaknesses, but they're not as exploitable as Kartana who gets beaten down by pretty much any faster Special Attacker, on SD sets, or gets taken advantage of due to being Choice locked, in Scarf sets. Another key factor is that I feel Kartana isn't as splashable or meta defining as our current S ranks, it's very very easy to simply slap a Landorus-T, Toxapex, or both into a team and call it a day, whereas Kartana requires some more thought into being added onto a team.

So overall, I think it's not quite S rank just yet, but I can still understand the reasoning behind a rise.
 

Colonel M

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I'm going to keep this locked for a while. Finch can re-open it.

To clarify - every post that did not contribute in any sort of fashion positively, including one-liners, have been infracted today. Why am I saying this out loud? Because I want to make it clear: VR posting should be taken with some semblance of seriousness. What Omari P posted for Hoopa-C for example is a lot more applicable and practical than the bullshit I just read with Qwilfish (but Hoopa-C would start at the bottom not as high as suggested). Fell Stinger requires a forced sack and if your opponent doesnt comply or is too healthy you miss your opportunity to get a free boost with Swords Dance. I'm not denying Qwilfish isnt bad and could be argued for a rise, but spewing "Magearna and Kartana are overrated and bad" makes you sound like a moronic troll. The same with the other person who made the dumb comparison to Landorus-T.

Make no mistake - people may call me a janitor and criticize me, but as long as I remain OU Forum Tyrant I refuse to see such displays of arrogance and irresponsibility.

When this is reopened, I expect people to act civil and reasonable. If acts like what has conspired the last week continues, you'll be damn certain to face consequences.
 
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Finchinator

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The VR Council is now voting on a major slate after taking into consideration posts here and our own opinions. The results to this slate will be posted in 2-3 days and then I will (attempt to) open this thread again upon implementing the changes. Stay patient and don’t make me regret this come then, thanks and best regards to everyone.
 

Finchinator

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First and foremost, we have decided to add an S- ranking to the Ultra Sun and Moon Overused Viability Rankings after discussing how to handle things at length. This decision was essentially provoked by our general belief that there are three truly top tiers near the higher-end of the viability spectrum currently. Landorus-T is by far the most common and outright viable Pokemon in the metagame, but Pokemon such as Toxapex, who was previously S, Heatran, who was previously A+, and Kartana, who was previously A+, stood out from the pack of other A+ Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Zygarde, Ash Greninja, and Ferrothorn. Moreover, we believe Pokemon like Toxapex and Kartana provide exceptional utility or offensive presence to teams they are utilized on, respectively. We are using the S- sub-ranking as a means of showing this separation. Special thanks to ABR for being the main advocate of the idea, but also the VR Council as a whole for discussing it in a civil and proper fashion so that we could come th the best conclusion for this situation.

Seeing as this is a fairly complex matter and we have already discussed it internally at length, any discussion of the making of or changes to S and S- are totally off-limits in the thread, unless it is nominating something in A+ to move up to S-, as we do not believe S rank should have any current changes and we do not want this thread to devolve into a shitstorm about the topic of this new implementation. For all practical intents and purposes, this means that Landorus-T, Toxapex, Kartana, and Heatran are blacklisted from discussion as potential nominations. Needless to say, they can still be referenced when discussing other Pokemon as they're so prominent in the metagame, but the placement of them is not currently up for negotiation. This is subject to change in the future and I will alert people of this, but if anyone does not abide by this rule, then their post will likely be deleted and infracted depending on the circumstance.

In addition, some individuals have to stop pestering me or other OU contributors/moderators to post new updates... or honestly even borderline-harassing us about timing. The metagame evolves naturally and a Viability Rankings thread is about the metagame. We cannot put time constraints on that, nor the forming of our council's opinions. I have plenty of time to contribute and I am glad to, but it is not something I enjoy doing as much when people are acting irrationally or hostile. I discussed this in a prior post, but people should stop acting in this fashion and simply wait and be civil if they wish for this thread to continue at all, let alone be open to the public often as opposed to just getting periodically updated by the VR Council. I was planning to update the thread on Friday or Saturday, but upon hearing from some people who were not handling matters appropriately, I decided to spend my time on something more beneficial to myself instead of to the community as a punishment for this behavior. As one of the forum moderators and leaders, I expect the people who post to be held to the standards of the forum rules and with at least some respect for authority/contributors and this was lacking, so there were consequences for that collective action. Hope this sends a message to cut it out as if it does not, I can go even further in the future to the specific individuals causing the problems as opposed to the community as a whole who benefits from this thread.

Finally, we can get on to the actual changes now that all of this is out of the way!

Rises
  • Kartana from A+ to new S- rank
  • Heatran from A+ to new S- rank
  • Volcarona from A to A+
  • Tapu Lele from A to A+
  • Hawlucha from A- to A
  • Gliscor from B+ to A-
  • Chansey from B+ to A-
  • Zapdos from B+ to A-
  • Medicham (Mega) from B+ to A-
  • Tornadus-T from B- to B
  • Qwilfish from C- to C

Drops
  • Toxapex from S to new S- rank
  • Tyranitar from A+ to A
  • Greninja from A to A-
  • Mawile (Mega) from A to A-
  • Latios from A- to B+
  • Venusaur (Mega) from A- to B+
  • Blacephalon from A- to B+
  • Keldeo from A- to B+
  • Diancie (Mega) from B+ to B
  • Latias from B to B-
  • Altaria (Mega) from C to C-
Reasoning
  • Heatran has risen to prominence once again, with a variety of insanely effective sets. Most notably, Magma Storm variants are able to provide great defensive utility while trapping things like Toxapex and Clefable and being hard to switch-in to, providing many offensive teams with trouble in terms of defensive counterplay. Overall, Heatran is the epitome of a top-tier Pokemon with great versatility, a clear multi-faceted niche, and a significant amount of usage on standard variations of bulky-offense and balance. Heatran's back at the top and it really is no surprise given metagame trends and how consistently effective it is, thus landing itself in our new S- rank!
  • Kartana has also skyrocketed up in popularity, usefulness, and overall viability ever since the middle of SM. Needless to say, Kartana is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame, being a top-notch cleaner and revenge killer with the Scarf variant, especially when paired with Grassy Terrain from the now surging Tapu Bulu, and a seemingly uncounterable breaker with the SD Z variants. With a decent amount of versatility despite being confined to two general sets and a top-notch damage output and offensive utility presence, Kartana has earned itself a spot in our new S- rank, too.
  • Volcarona has switched back-and-forth between A and A+ for a long time and it has now bounced back to A+, perhaps due to the fact that it is basically a guessing game when it comes to counterplay unless you want to revenge kill it with one of the few scarfers that can do so, most of which are mediocre or hardly viable otherwise and simply resorted to as a means of emergency button sweep preventing and role compression at large. With various Z sets and coverage options, the Moth is as potent as ever and I would not expect it to lose this niche or title anytime soon.
  • Tapu Lele saw a significant drop in popularity when AV Magearna was almost a staple on bulky-offense, but now it is back with a plethora of tricks up its sleeve, running Z breaker variants, Specs nuke sets, and Scarf revenge killing sets that still pack quite the punch. With superb Special Attack, one of the most practical abilities in the game, and fair Speed, Tapu Lele has became a top-notch threat to balance and bulkier teams once again with the two former sets and this is reflected in the rise back to A+.
  • Hawlucha is a fireball Pokemon in the metagame, taking games by storm when paired with the right Terrain and Seed. It is challenging to counter and it hits hard enough while having longevity with Roost or Drain Punch. In addition, it takes advantage of the ever-so-common Landorus-T more often than not, making it a great partner for Tapu Koko on hyper offense. With the surge in popularity and many noteworthy players taking note of how effective it can be on a consistent basis, it should be no surprise that Hawlucha is finally rising up the rankings, now to A.
  • Gliscor's success in the metagame is predominantly due to the Defog tutor that allowed it to run Defog in conjunction with Poison heal ever since Ultra Sun and Moon dropped, but the pesky Ground/Flying type has proven its worth and niche since then, finding its way onto many balance teams and being a pain to get around when utilized well. Gliscor rising to A- is merely a reflection of its surge in popularity upon receiving this new niche.
  • Chansey has been a stall staple since the early days of Sun and Moon and still is, but now it is seeing more usage on balance teams and the "Chansey offense" archetype that has been discussed and used quite a bit recently. Given its overall role in the metagame and what it can do defensively while providing decent utility, Chansey's rise is certainly deserved, especially seeing that it is getting tons of usage on ladder and in tournaments at the moment.
  • Zapdos is another Pokemon that has been pretty common on Stall, but can also function on balance, admittedly a bit more consistently and less controversially than Chansey. The golden bird of generation one continues to shine with great offensive coverage, a new toy in Static, and a great niche as a Defogger that has a special defensive presence that so many teams take advantage of.
  • Mega Medicham has been seeing more usage again as people notice that it can beat Landorus-T, which most balance and bulky-offensive teams bank on to counter it. This nuke of a Pokemon has decent enough speed to function despite being somewhat frail and taking up the mega slot and it has proven to be effective in breaking open games and rewarding aggressive, offensive gameplay. Overall, Mega Medicham very well may have been good enough to be A- all along, but recent trends surely attest well enough to this and teams like the one John used week 1 and Cdumas used week 3 in SPL are superb testaments to the effectiveness of Mega Medicham in the current metagame.
  • Tornadus-T is surging like it did in the middle of ORAS, but now it is not due to the AV set, but rather the Z-Hurricane Defog set as it fully checks Landorus-T's most common set, Stealth Rock, and provides a great utility on both sides of the spectrum with Defog and Regenerator providing defensive assistance and longevity while Z Hurricane and a plethora of coverage moves enable it to be an offensive force to be reckon with, thus letting it rise up the ranks as it previously saw little-to-no usage.
  • Qwilfish, also known as Little Lucario's fetish Pokemon, has been seeing some usage on Rain teams lately due to it being able to absorb Toxic Spikes and function as a lure to many common Rain checks with Swords Dance, Explosion, and Poison Jab paired with Swift Swim, letting it nuke or take out things like Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, and even Toxapex in exchange for its own life if timed well. The ability to open the door for others at least lets Qwilfish hang on to viability and after seeing it used sporadically, we have decided to bump it up to C as we feel it is not the worst you could do when it comes to synergetic offensive presences to fit on rain given the clear aforementioned niche.
  • Onto the drops, Toxapex's drop is more a reflection of its place in the tier not being on par with Landorus-T, who finds himself on practically every team, and still above the likes of the A+ Pokemon. Not much has changed with Toxapex, but it simply fits much better into this place than where it did previously, so it now resides in our new S- rank!
  • Tyranitar's Choice Band set is still a pain to switch-in to, but it has finally slowed down a bit after surging to prominence directly after the Dugtrio ban. Being an immense threat to teams as an overall offensive presence while being the tier's best user of Pursuit lets Tyranitar function well, but it is still slow and vulnerable to a plethora of things while it struggles to always lock into a move and is being prepared for more thoroughly nowadays by bulky teams, such as Chansey using Protect and Pokemon like Hippowdon getting slightly more usage, which counters it, leading us to believe that Tyranitar fit in more with the A sub-rank than A+ as it is not quite as metagame defining and menacing as it previously was.
  • Greninja's Protean variants simply are not as common or consistent as the Ash ones and this has shown consistently over time. With the Scarf set being mediocre and most of the Spike Z sets being pretty niche, it is hard to really justify keeping it highly ranked. The only other true set is like Sash Lead Spikes with Taunt and while it had a phase of popularity, it has since also dropped into niche territory, essetially, making Greninja a versatile threat collectively, but not quite up to par with A rank standards given the lack of truly consistently effective and used variants of it.
  • Mega Mawile is still a great breaker and poses a threat to bulky teams, especially without Dugtrio in the tier, but with Heatran and Landorus-T being so common and the metagame having a fair amount of faster offensive teams running around at the moment, the environment simply is not ideal for this slugger and a small drop-off reflect that here.
  • Latios has never been too great in the SM metagame and honestly, nobody has been using non-Choice sets consistently, with the Z sets being essentially niche and the classic ORAS LO Defog sets being regarded as mediocre. Scarf Latios is a very usable Pokemon, but it is pretty bad objectively, being a product of role compression that isn't strong enough or long-lasting due to the presence of Pursuit, but it can Defog, revenge kill, and check a few of the other things off the building "checklist" for offensive teams, so it sees usage. That does not mean it is particularly good and it clearly is pretty average in-battle, so our dropping of it reflects that and where it should fall given its usage and effectiveness in-game.
  • Mega Venusaur has always been annoying and it still is to many teams that struggle to break through it, but with Toxapex being all over and being a pretty decent stop to it, Mega Venusaur simply doesn't have as much consistent effectiveness or usage anymore, so a drop was deemed necessary.
  • Blacephalon got introduced and was hyped up immediately, but with counterplay consisting of multiple very common threats and it being one of the most frail Pokemon in the tier, it has not really ever been worth using and it continues to fall in popularity as people see that it is worse than they believed over time. While it still has a clear niche, being frail, SR weak, and walled by Toxapex, trapped by Tyranitar, and at least checked temporarily by numerous others such as Ash Greninja, it should be no surprise whatsoever that the newly introduced Ghost/Fire type is nowhere near top tier and dropping down to B+.
  • Keldeo has been mediocre for very long now and in a metagame ruled by Toxapex where AV Tapu Bulu is very common and other typical countermeasures see healthy amounts of usage, the long-time OU staple Water pony simply does not cut it as a Choice Scarf user anymore while the Specs set does not have the breaking power to warrant usage and other sets are more niche than anything else, so it also takes the fall here.
  • Mega Diancie was hyped a ton due to the new mechanics at first, but it simply has never taken off due to too many things checking it defensively, there being less need to run megas, widespread Defog, and it providing little defensively. Overall, the metagame simply is not kind to Mega Diancie and there is not a ton of reason to consistently use it, so it dropped once more.
  • Latias has never really seen usage outside of the very niche Choice Scarf set that essentially has Healing Wish over is counterpart, Latios. Latios also dropped here as that variant simply isn't good so much as it is a master of role compression on offensive teams and given that Latias is significantly weaker and not many teams require Healing Wish support, there really is no reason to keep it remotely high seeing as non-Scarf sets are all outdone by the mega variant of Latias itself or Latios' regular or Mega sets on the offensive end. Latias simply has one niche and it is not large enough to maintain its ranking, so it falls.
  • Finally, Mega Altaria has never caught on in the overused metagame this generation and while many believe it has a niche as a Defog user, nobody appears to be utilizing it or defending it in a practical sense, so we dropped it to C- and it is on the brink of leaving the viability rankings, much like it dropped out of OU to UU usage wise. The mediocre Fairy/Dragon does not provide much appeal and while it does check some relevant Pokemon, many believe it is outclassed or simply not worth catering your team to fitting it as there are other more appreciated role-filling Defog users and utility pivots out there such as the surging Gliscor, which I previously mentioned.
These were all of the prospective changes we voted on and we eventually brought the topic of Kartana, Heatran, and Toxapex to S- into discussion, which led to that happening. For the record, the following Pokemon were close, but ultimately did not receive enough support to change: Zygarde, Clefable, Kyurem-Black, Tangrowth, Garchomp, and Lycanroc-Dusk.

Kartana from A+ to S
Heatran from A+ to S
Tapu Koko from A+ to A
Tyranitar from A+ to A
Zygarde from A+ to A
Volcarona from A to A+
Tapu Lele from A to A+
Greninja from A to A-
Mawile (Mega) from A to A-
Clefable from A to A-
Kyurem-Black from A to A-
Hawlucha from A- to A
Latios from A- to B+
Venusaur (Mega) from A- to B+
Blacephalon from A- to B+
Keldeo from A- to B+
Gliscor from B+ to A-
Chansey from B+ to A-
Zapdos from B+ to A-
Medicham (Mega) from B+ to A-
Sableye (Mega) from B+ to B
Tangrowth from B+ to B
Diancie (Mega) from B+ to B
Garchomp from B to B-
Latias from B to B-
Tornados-T from B- to B
Mimikyu from B- to C+
Altaria (Mega) from C to C- or UR
Qwilfish from C- to C
Lycanrock Dusk from C- to UR


The following changes will be specifically focused on as discussion points for the next update:
  • Tornadus-Therian to B+
  • Zygarde to A
  • Clefable to A-
Changes will be reflected in the OP later today!
 

Finchinator

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You may now post, but please keep in mind what I mentioned in my previous post and do not violate any forum rules as per normal. I am not going to shy away from closing this thread for a prolonged period of time if the quality of discussion is lackluster or the posts prove to be consistently problematic. The thread is now open.
 

power

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I think Tapu Koko belongs in S-. It's strongly comparable to Heatran in terms of viability, its an absolute terror to prep for, and even despite prep it can still curbstomp your team. Specs Volt just terrorizes every team and Shuca is no slouch of a set either. I think there's still a good argument to keep it in A+, but I am strongly leaning S- at the moment just because of the amazing pressure Koko puts on teambuilding.

I think it's also an amazing mon thats super splashable to fit on teams. It hardly ever accentuates weaknesses to common threats (such as how Ash Greninja can accentuate a Toxapex weakness), and it serves as incredibly splashable speed control, and one of the few offensive Pinsir Checks.

I think all the other A+ mons should remain in A+, and I pre-emptively disagree with any nominations for Ash-Greninja to move up.
 
If i see a normal hoopa im pretty sure thats like the only set i’d expect
I was gonna just respond cleverly with no backup but you know what im going to just let the data speak for itself. Considering that the movesets for hoopa are "| Substitute 20.916% | "in high ladder - which is almost entirely attributed by me, thats a bad assumption. What about for the rest? In 1625 its 70% which i can guarantee is almost entirely me.
And then on <1500 its around 40%. with these teammates. Which again , is literally my fucking team lmao. So in general, if its my team its substitute, otherwise thats a terrible assumption.
"| Teammates
| Staraptor +22.666% |
| Mandibuzz +22.194% |
| Empoleon +20.553% |
| Mew +19.677% |
| Charizard-Mega-X +17.949% | "
Love stats. <3
 
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Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
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I can really hop on board with tapu koko to S-
I find myself absolutely requiring a ground type or other electric immunity on every team. Something like AV tang/bulu is not enough to check koko because without an electric immunity, a specs koko volt switch is just so powerful and so terrorizing that it can totally dictate a game when you don't have any way to stop it. Very often can koko just volt switch out on grass type to switch into heatran or maybe mega medi/kyu-b that enjoy the terrain buff to their electric coverage and start doing damage.

Sets like shuca, z-wild charge, taunt, etc etc are all good too but specs is just so powerful and constraining on teambuilding that Koko should be S-.

Torn-T to B+
I dont mind this change too much. I can most readily draw parallels to mega latios who is also B+. Both mons are pretty threatening offensively, but still have their common weaknesses like mega latios will be open to ferro/celesteela/clefable with eq and + heatran/ttar if it runs hp fire>eq. Torn is walled by zap which is growing more and more popular on balance and checked by koko on offense.
The strong points of torn were already summarized in the update but I can see it rising just because of how it belongs in B+, and how its clearly becoming a step up from washed up mons like garchomp and gengar in B.

can't comment much on the others but slightly agree with them, zyg can go A and clef to A- pretty comfortably.
 

Katy

What goes around comes around!
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  • Tornadus-Therian to B+
I agree with Torn T from B to B+ honestly, it is a great defogger with regenerator. has a good movepool to cover up stuff such as knock off, heat wave, superpower, u-turn (for momentum) and of course the z-hurricane which is able to nuke here and there some pkmn via careless switchin into it.
 
Glad to see Heatran move into S- rank, same with Kartana!
I see a lot of Heatran now, and they are arguably one of the best Ferrothorn counters in the game, and it is used a lot more commonly than in SM. Heatran is probably one of the most solid "all arounders" ( Vast movepool, good all-around offense and bulk ).
Also Tapu Koko in S- is pretty interesting, I could see it maybe happen.
 
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