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I agree with a Gastro rise. As we can see from it's performances in SPL, it's just so consistently good, it's so hard to find a mon that counters Koko, Gren and Heatran in one slot, and even harder to find one that doesn't give Koko momentum. I can't add much more than has already been said, but here's a replay of elodin showcasing how great of a mon gastrodon is vs Mounts (week 4, round 6 of smogon tour): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-365391
As you can see from the replay, Gastro pretty much just beat Mounds' team once Kartana went down. Get this thing to at least B-.
I don't think I agree with a Clef rise. Don't get me wrong, it's super good, but I just think its power level is accurately reflected in A, its definitely not as good as any of the mons in A+.
Skarmory doesn't really deserve B- anymore. It hasn't been actively used on any builds in like 8 months since the Duggy ban and Celesteela is just way better in general. Seriously, it was used 1 time in SPL and lost. At least other B- mons like Heracross and Amoonguss have some kind of success anywhere and any legitimate reason to be used, but Skarm is just ass. It just gets overwhelmed by popular physical attackers nowadays, like Mega Medi and Kyu-B. I shouldn't have to go too in depth about this, everyone knows why Skarm is trash and should be dropped.
This isn't a meme nom lol. Espeon is usually a complete joke of a mon in OU, but particularly with the ESeed set from BanDisnDatnMe and the right support, it's a competent sweeper.
Espeon @ Electric Seed
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
Magic Bounce is the primary reason why this set works. Obviously, it prevents toxic/twave/leech seed/etc from crippling it, but it also prevents defoggers from getting rid of its screens if it has screens support. Eseed boosts its normally mediocre defenses, allowing it to have good enough bulk to avoid getting 2HKOd by Zygarde and M-Pinsir.
The defense boost, along with calm mind, lets stored power become powerful fairly quickly. After 1 calm mind boost, dazzling gleam OHKOS Greninja and OHKOS Weavile after rocks or a layer of spikes. After 2 calm minds, Espeon can OHK M-Pinsir and Zygarde. With enough boosts, stored power becomes pretty much unwallable.
Espeon can easily setup on common mons, the most notable of which are Landorus, Ferrothorn and Heatran.
There are some checks/counters- Toxapex can quickly switch in and haze (takes only 60-70% from +1 Espeon Stored Power), Hoopa-U can quickly come in and demolish it, TTar can just spam crunch/pursuit, and Kartana can two hit kill it with leaf blade (also doesn't get OHKed by Espeon).
Still, against most matchups and especially with the help of screens (TTar locked into Pursuit and Kartana leaf blade or knock off cant 2HKO Espeon with Reflect, and Espeon can kill back), Espeon can easily setup and sweep teams.
Since shit like Scolipede, Nihilego, and Avalugg are in C-, it's very clear that Espeon should be ranked. It has the ability to setup on some of the most popular mons, become completely unwallable after a couple of boosts, tank hits from powerful wall breakers like M-Pinsir, and bounce back hazards with its ability. Not to mention, access to recovery (though morning sun is admittedley bleh).
Wall of Calcs, shamelessly stolen from BanDisnDatnMe:
Resistance
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252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon through Light Screen: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery
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252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. +1 252 HP / 224+ Def Espeon: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 224+ Def Espeon in Grassy Terrain: 190-225 (56.8 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
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252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. +1 252 HP / 224+ Def Espeon: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
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252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. +1 252 HP / 224+ Def Espeon: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 224+ Def Espeon: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Offensive prowess
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+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 354-417 (130.6 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Zygarde: 328-387 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 390-459 (102 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 339-399 (120.6 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 258-304 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 366-432 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
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+1 0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-172 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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+1 0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 248-292 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
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+1 0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 286-338 (100.3 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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+1 0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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And replays in high ladder, also from the king himself:
while we are on some innovations lets bring this up again. Move whatever the dancing clown is to C-/UR. It is a frail mon with pretty much no niche and the only thing going for it is that you cant tell if its scarf of specs both of which are easily reminded b/c its really not that strong and easily revenge killed. Right now the set people call out is the sub calm mind set - which I remind you hoopa c does way better for ~200 + more base bulk and -1 bspa; Not to mention way more coverage. There is no reason to use this mon other than the mind game of scarf /specs.
Its not that strong? Ur talking like its lycanroc or shit with 110 offenses, not a mon with goddamn 151 spa
And hoopa c and blace arent comparable whatsoever other than the fact both set up on stall, for one blace has a much higher speed tier and beast boost
Second, u cant seriously nom for a drop like 3 in ranks with no sufficient reason, i can also undermine any mon the way u said too
"Gren is very frail and has pretty much no niche, right now the only thing it can run is specs which is predictable and cant even beat common mons like pex and bulu and is worse than protean greninja cause it has worse coverage, drop to b-"
See how that sounds? If u nom pls tell us HOW the meta changed so much for it to get unranked
You could retort with gren having many different movesets, the ability to run mixed scarf, or protean or ash gren, and it all of its sets having different purposes. For blace you simply cannot and will not. 151 does a lot less than you might think it does off low power base moves. For the cm set that ppl talk about, why in the hell would you need speed lol . who are you trying to out-speed on stall. chansey? Blace has never been good, no meta change was needed.( also fun fact stone edge from lycanroc is only marginally weaker than shadow ball from blace :) )
while we are on some innovations lets bring this up again. Move whatever the dancing clown is to C-/UR. It is a frail mon with pretty much no niche and the only thing going for it is that you cant tell if its scarf of specs both of which are easily reminded b/c its really not that strong and easily revenge killed. Right now the set people call out is the sub calm mind set - which I remind you hoopa c does way better for ~200 + more base bulk and -1 bspa; Not to mention way more coverage. There is no reason to use this mon other than the mind game of scarf /specs.
Hey, I genuinely think ur cool, which u probably know I do already & have very unique teambuilding ideas but honestly I don't think blacephalon is c-/ur. If charizard y is c+, blacephalon shouldn't be any lower than that. The amount of work blacephalon can put in is very matchup dependent much like charizard y... If the person that one is playing against doesn't have a 1. a toxapex 2. a tyranitar, blacephalon honestly can wreak quite a lot of havoc each time it comes in. My personal favorite set is specs coz I love to just click buttons w/o thinking but anyhow yea... I actually have some old replays of blacephalon wreaking havoc vs certain teams, they're a bit old & I wasn't intending to share them out tbh but figured I might as well since there's so much debate over it.
You could retort with gren having many different movesets, the ability to run mixed scarf, or protean or ash gren, and it all of its sets having different purposes. For blace you simply cannot and will not. 151 does a lot less than you might think it does off low power base moves. For the cm set that ppl talk about, why in the hell would you need speed lol . who are you trying to out-speed on stall. chansey? Blace has never been good, no meta change was needed.( also fun fact stone edge from lycanroc is only marginally weaker than shadow ball from blace :) )
"low base power moves" what are you talking about? specs often runs overheat, a 130bp move, and if you so wish you can run mind blown, a 150bp move, one of the strongest moves in the game. also, while i dont really like the speed set too much, youre misunderstanding the purpose of it. the speed boosting set compromises breaking power for a better offense mu. its better on teams that already have good stall matchups as it makes blace much harder to revenge. keep blace at b- at lowest.
edit: if you want a showcase of blace, watch the second replay nubzie posted - this is exactly what i mean when i say on discord that bo has no switchins to it. literally every time blace came out his opponent had to sack something. heres some replays of sub cm blace putting in work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-732049188 (there was some hax but blace still cleaned up late game) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-732663956
Not to be that dude - but not only are those replays low ladder lol the guy had 2 switchins which he sacked or got hax on the first one and for the second one good shit ngl - but that couldve been done by hoopa c or a few other ghosts for that matter since the mans have 0 ghost resists; actually both of them didnt. As for the test here are the usage stats
"Choice Scarf 54.017% | Ghostium Z 23.649% | Choice Specs 14.325% "
" Shadow Ball 99.741% | Flamethrower 64.203% | Trick 55.320% | Fire Blast 50.148% | Calm Mind 25.727% | Substitute 23.950% | Will-O-Wisp 23.271% | Hidden Power Ice 10.392% | Overheat 9.816% | Mind Blown 8.978% | Explosion 5.454% | Psychic 4.770% | Other 18.230%"
So those moves that you mentioned really are rare af and if they are revealed theres no way its gonna be scarf lol. and its setup bait. Also its great to mention that zard y has far better coverage and far better matchups than blace by far ( it also hits far harder in general). the only one relevant one that blace has over it is terrakion - which blace cant kill anyway . In fact if a team is built well many mons will come in on blace - if its built well but most ppl cant do that so you might have a point.
Not to be that dude - but not only are those replays low ladder lol the guy had 2 switchins which he sacked or got hax on the first one and for the second one good shit ngl - but that couldve been done by hoopa c or a few other ghosts for that matter since the mans have 0 ghost resists; actually both of them didnt. As for the test here are the usage stats
"Choice Scarf 54.017% | Ghostium Z 23.649% | Choice Specs 14.325% "
" Shadow Ball 99.741% | Flamethrower 64.203% | Trick 55.320% | Fire Blast 50.148% | Calm Mind 25.727% | Substitute 23.950% | Will-O-Wisp 23.271% | Hidden Power Ice 10.392% | Overheat 9.816% | Mind Blown 8.978% | Explosion 5.454% | Psychic 4.770% | Other 18.230%"
So those moves that you mentioned really are rare af and if they are revealed theres no way its gonna be scarf lol. and its setup bait. Also its great to mention that zard y has far better coverage and far better matchups than blace by far ( it also hits far harder in general). the only one relevant one that blace has over it is terrakion - which blace cant kill anyway . In fact if a team is built well many mons will come in on blace - if its built well but most ppl cant do that so you might have a point.
we just gonna ignore the fire blast sitting right there at 50%? lol. anyway, you're really undermining how strong blace is, even with only an 80/90 bp move it hits hard as fuck with specs, or even a +1 z absolutely nukes most answers outside of toxapex, which only just takes it if its max spdef and it dies after slight chip - +1 252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 246-289 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery.
edit: yeah the first one was low ladder but i didnt really check elo before i posted them bc i have a backlog of random replays that i might use so i just looked through those for blace and posted them. you say hoopa c couldve done the same but 1. hoopa c can't break av mage as well as blacephalon can, and 2. even if it could've hoopa c objectively cannot utilise a specs, scarf (i dont like it but a lot of people use it so it must be at least decent) or even a speed boosting set (do not mention z snatch bro mentioning hoopa c at all is a stretch lmao), so while it may accomplish similar goals to blacephalon with that one set, it doesn't do it as well and it's one dimensional, unlike blace.
while we are on some innovations lets bring this up again. Move whatever the dancing clown is to C-/UR. It is a frail mon with pretty much no niche and the only thing going for it is that you cant tell if its scarf of specs both of which are easily reminded b/c its really not that strong and easily revenge killed. Right now the set people call out is the sub calm mind set - which I remind you hoopa c does way better for ~200 + more base bulk and -1 bspa; Not to mention way more coverage. There is no reason to use this mon other than the mind game of scarf /specs.
Hey, I'm not looking to disagree with a Blace drop in the near future but I urge you to look at the current placement of a mon before nominating it for a drop. I know it may not seem like that big of a deal if you're confident about the ranking it should move to but you have to consider that there's a reason for Blace being in B- atm. A pokemon dropping from B- all the way to C- or UR is something you don't see too often without a considerable meta shift (which, as you've said yourself, has not happened). I understand your arguments for a drop but avoid these huge drop noms (something you've done in the past with Kartana) because they won't really bring you anything because that's very unlikely to happen
Blace strikes me as something which in theory puts in work versus one archetype depending on which set it uses and loses to everything else. Scarf sets put in some work against offense (though better revenge killers/cleaners exist, namely scarf kart, ash-gren, and an assortment of other scarfers/priority mons), but lack the power to break through bulkier balance or stall teams. Specs turns it into somewhat of a balance breaker, but its awkward speed tier leaves it shaky against offense and stall teams have the ability to play around it. SubCM and Ghostium feel like the best sets overall (I've never used them personally so I can't say) but whenever I've faced them they match up even worse than specs against offense. Every set runs into the problems of being completely walled by t-tar, pex, and bulky trans (SubCM can annoy pex somewhat though), and being very easily pressured by any offense at all as well as being very vulnerable to hazards. Admittedly I am talking out of my ass here somewhat since I have very little experience playing with the clown, but every time I've had it used against me it was rarely a threat. It does seem to have a solid niche though. C+ seems like the best place for it, alongside similarly situational and niche mons as Bisharp and Mimikyu. Don't really care where this thing goes though; I can see it being in B- too.
A mon I do have experience using is Gastrodon, and I firmly support it rising. It provides great defensive role compression - walling Koko, both Greninjas, Magearna, Heatran, various electrics like Magnezone, Zapdos, and Rotom, and almost single-handedly shuts down rain. True, it does face some competition with the grasses for beating some of these, and there's competition from Pex in terms of being a bulky water. However, Tangrowth/Tapu Bulu/Amoonguss all let Koko and Magearna get momentum with Volt Switch on the switch-in, whereas the sea slug forces them to hard switch. This gives Gastro a free opportunity to fire off a Toxic and keep up defensive pressure. Additionally, the grasses all lose to Heatran while Gastrodon hard-walls it. Meanwhile, Pex simply loses to Koko and takes a lot from random Electric coverage, which gives Gastro a clear niche there. It's rather easily worn down, but as LL mentioned WishClef alleviates a lot of that.
Another point I'd like to touch on is the amazing synergy between this guy and Celesteela, a core which I'm using on one of my balance teams. I bring this up because in my experience it's one of the most proactive defense cores I've ever used. The combination of the two of them collectively shut down the majority of the S through A- offensive threats, and use that walling power to chip the entire team down with Toxic and Leech Seed damage as well as neutral hits. Even without Steela as a partner, Gastro is a great glue mon and blanket answer for the threats I mentioned above. We've all seen the tournament games where Gastrodon was one of the MVPs, and with a little support it can completely lock down the opponent's team. B absolutely does not do this beast justice. At first I was thinking B+, but as I wrote this I began to completely agree with LL that this deserves A-.
Leo
lol fair enough. However, if i'm being completely realistic a mons current rank has little to only slightly moderate bearing on its viability and usefulness; in fact, that's a fallacy lol ( a few tbh - bandwagon fallacy and appeal to tradition, etc). People may tend to agree if slightly persuaded but that doesnt mean they are correct - especially with blace. DOWN WITH THE CLOWN
I think a Gastro rise is absolutely warranted given its extreme tournament useage and success. Many teams have some combination of bulky grass (Bulu, Tang, Amoongus) + Pex as their Koko+Ninja+Magearna switch in but these cores are torn apart by Magma Storm Heatran and often have nothing that really wants to take the hit, even if resisted. Gastro being able to switch into (and beat!) standard Tran, Koko and Greninja is insane. While I actually do agree with a rise, I think the meta is going to quickly adapt to Gastro. All three have ways of severely punishing Gastro that just are not used currently. The most likely of the three to be able to fit a Grass move is Shuca Koko (which still does not do that much), followed by Bloom Doom Tran (which is more viable as of late due to the use of Wish Magic Guard Clefable). Heatran can also start throwing out Toxic on the switch (people go into Gastro 100% of the time against a Tran). Grass Knot Ninja has never really been a thing.
Basically what I'm predicting is that currently Gastro is switching into these threats relatively for free but in the near future it will have to scout. There are many, many builds that have Koko+Ninja+Tran and to give up one slot of 12 to heavily chunk or pressure or kill an otherwise hard counter is well worth it imo.
Blace strikes me as something which in theory puts in work versus one archetype depending on which set it uses and loses to everything else. Scarf sets put in some work against offense (though better revenge killers/cleaners exist, namely scarf kart, ash-gren, and an assortment of other scarfers/priority mons), but lack the power to break through bulkier balance or stall teams. Specs turns it into somewhat of a balance breaker, but its awkward speed tier leaves it shaky against offense and stall teams have the ability to play around it. SubCM and Ghostium feel like the best sets overall (I've never used them personally so I can't say) but whenever I've faced them they match up even worse than specs against offense. Every set runs into the problems of being completely walled by t-tar, pex, and bulky trans (SubCM can annoy pex somewhat though), and being very easily pressured by any offense at all as well as being very vulnerable to hazards. Admittedly I am talking out of my ass here somewhat since I have very little experience playing with the clown, but every time I've had it used against me it was rarely a threat. It does seem to have a solid niche though. C+ seems like the best place for it, alongside similarly situational and niche mons as Bisharp and Mimikyu. Don't really care where this thing goes though; I can see it being in B- too.
I'll agree Blacephalon is kinda matchup dependant but it's definitely not just a flat out "beat one archetype lose to another"; it has outs to a lot of the problems you raise. You mentioned that every set is walled by Ttar, but this isn't the case. Specs can (and in my opinion should always) carry HP Grass to catch CB Tyranitar on the switch (it also hits Gastrodon): it's a roll to 2HKO in your favour with rocks up or equivalent chip. If you catch the Tyranitar on the switch, they should fear being 2HKOd and switch out, which allows you to switch out without fear of pursuit. The next time it comes in, you don't even have to click HP Grass; even with a min roll, Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs after rocks and Specs Fire Blast 2HKOs without. Specs also heavily pressures SpDef Pex with Shadow Ball SpDef drops or even simply 2HKOing if you've managed to chip it a bit or if its a PhysDef set (nearly as common as max spdef in high ladder), and SpDef Heatran only comes in on Shadow Ball once, so it's not the worst case. SubCM is definitely hopelessly walled by Ttar, but it gives Toxapex a bit more trouble. If you get a Calm Mind up on the switch, +1 Ghostium does like 90, meaning they're forced out to Regen back up a couple of times, and you can continue to wreak havoc with it. It should be noted that SpDef Heatran is setup fodder for SubCM; SpDef can't usually fit Earth Power on the set, meaning their best option is to Toxic or Lava Plume you. If you Sub on the switch, they obviously can't toxic and Plume doesn't break your Sub at +1 SpDef.
Obviously, these are ideal situations for Blace, it definitely does struggle against common meta threats like Ash Gren, Scarf Kartana, SpDef Toxapex etc. but I firmly believe that it's a solid breaker / potential cleaner, and it's niche is greater than the Pokemon that reside in C+.
So Blacephalon is getting a nom for UR and B+. Yeah, it’s a very interesting Pokémon with great atc,spatc and a pretty good speed tier. IDK if it can set up against stall is that great when stall is quite mediocre right now as it is but it does on the other hand hit like a truck to anything whose name is not TTar or Pex depending on the set. While on the other end its defenses suck. Yet it feels like Quagsire it should not be good yet it is. Finally, is it out classed, the Pokémon Hoopa U comes to mind. Hoopa very similar idea two great offensive stats and a bad defense stat yet they feel somewhat different and they can run different roles on the team. I would probaly rank it in B not b- i feel it is undersold for what it can do.
My thoughts on other noms.
Toxapex S- to A+ oh hell na. But really it is extemly meta defining right now as it is.
M Charizard Y C+ to B- Agree. I think hoping for Pex tot to be there is fine it still hits hard and does its thing.
Gastrodon B to A- Agree. SPL enough said.
Finally my nom. Greninja not ash to A+. It is a great scarf user who can deal with a lot of the meta game trends currently and keep momentum up through the match and is arguebly the best revenge killer in the game outside of water suriken on A.Greninja. Yet it can be one of if not the most anoyoing mons in the meta.
Finally my nom. Greninja not ash to A+. It is a great scarf user who can deal with a lot of the meta game trends currently and keep momentum up through the match and is arguebly the best revenge killer in the game outside of water suriken on A.Greninja. Yet it can be one of if not the most anoyoing mons in the meta.
I agree with you on Pex and MCY but I think Greninja should stay A. When you look at A+ you see metagame-defining threats like Koko, Lele, Ash-Gren, Magearna, and Zygarde. These things shape the way we build teams and all are dominant forces. A Ground-type is nearly mandatory on every team because of Koko, a bulky Steel is present on most teams because of Lele, we run bulky Waters and the Grasses because of Ash-Gren, the list goes on. Even the lower end of A+, which imo is Volc, still demolishes and clean-sweeps teams that aren't packing either Heatran, Pex, or a 100+ scarfer. Regular Greninja doesn't have nearly that level of dominance. Sure, it's one of the better scarfers in OU and it can run effective lure sets with things like Ebelt or a Z-move of your choice, but it lacks the sheer offensive power of Koko and Lele or the utility of Ferrothorn and Magearna. It's a frustrating mon for offensive teams to face, and you need to scout its moveset to figure out how to play around it, but those facts aren't enough to push it over into A+ alongside the juggernauts of OU. Keep it A.
I can't really support a rise for this guy anymore (I used to). HexGar is a good set, but it suffers from several glaring flaws, like its reliance on team support for status, its inability to break stall cores, its relative inability to handle most Heatran sets, its relative impotence against Toxapex, who can try to burn it or sponge its Z-Move. It performs (or tries to perform) a similar role to Heatran as a Taunt stallbreaker, but it can't touch Chansey or Sableye, and unlike Hoopa-U, Lele, Gliscor, and Keldeo, it lacks the boosting moves to really put that move to use. After 15% of chip it has 100% chance to lose to Heatran at 80% and it's not hard for it to take damage, frail as it is. A couple of months ago, I supported a rise out of pure versatility and the surprise factor of Z-Hex but now that HexGar is really the only set you see, it's not hard to play around it at all for most players.
More than anything with this mon I see opportunity cost wayyyy exceeding benefit. You're giving up your Z-Crystal for a fairly situational mon (similar to Z-Celebrate Victini, Z-Fly Gyara), you're giving up a ton of Defensive possibility (Gengar has approximately none), and you're giving your opponent another thing that Scarfers, fast sweepers, and even slower priority megabugs (Scizor, Pinsir) can 2HKO or even OHKO after a turn of setup. As a B rank it's well placed alongside Excadrill, Gyarados, ZardX, Mew, Kingdra, and Mamoswine.
I can't really support a rise for this guy anymore (I used to). HexGar is a good set, but it suffers from several glaring flaws, like its reliance on team support for status, its inability to break stall cores, its relative inability to handle most Heatran sets, its relative impotence against Toxapex, who can try to burn it or sponge its Z-Move. It performs (or tries to perform) a similar role to Heatran as a Taunt stallbreaker, but it can't touch Chansey or Sableye, and unlike Hoopa-U, Lele, Gliscor, and Keldeo, it lacks the boosting moves to really put that move to use. After 15% of chip it has 100% chance to lose to Heatran at 80% and it's not hard for it to take damage, frail as it is. A couple of months ago, I supported a rise out of pure versatility and the surprise factor of Z-Hex but now that HexGar is really the only set you see, it's not hard to play around it at all for most players.
More than anything with this mon I see opportunity cost wayyyy exceeding benefit. You're giving up your Z-Crystal for a fairly situational mon (similar to Z-Celebrate Victini, Z-Fly Gyara), you're giving up a ton of Defensive possibility (Gengar has approximately none), and you're giving your opponent another thing that Scarfers, fast sweepers, and even slower priority megabugs (Scizor, Pinsir) can 2HKO or even OHKO after a turn of setup. As a B rank it's well placed alongside Excadrill, Gyarados, ZardX, Mew, Kingdra, and Mamoswine.
For the third time, Z-Hex is not why this mon should rise, its a cool niche set that can work situationally but in my experience is simply worse than Specs, Scarf and Life Orb.
I'll also support Mega-Alakazam to A- I've not got much to add except that Calm Mind, which hasn't been mentioned, is absolutely deadly. honestly Alakazam's Special stats after a boost are unbelievable and it's speed is unmatched in the tier. This also means you don't have to rely on terrain if you can set up and live things like Scarf Blacephalons Shadow Ball.
Blacephalon is terrible, but more importantly it is being hyped way too much in either direction, rise two subranks or drop three? Blacephalon should stay B- in my opinion, it is among a very select few Ghost-types, it has a fantastic ability with OK Speed and good Special Attack. Fire-typing is a double-edged Sword, weakness to rocks means even resisted hits are often KO's. Sub CM is a funky idea but you can't even 2HKO Greninja without a boost, especially if you run that wack no SpAtk EV set someone floated, hell that set can't even 2HKO AV Magearna, which is the least I would expect a Fire-type breaker to do. Its Speed and SpAtk are both just subpar enough you really notice the lack in either when using Choice items, plus none of its moves are that great to be locked into. Plus it has absolutely 0 coverage not even Hidden Power [Fightining], which means it has no way to break through common checks. Losing to two of the most common mons in the tier, Scarf Kartana and Ash Greninja is a real boon to it and among that if not running Sub CM most common special walls will not be struggling.
Gastrodon to A-... to B+ agree, OK I gotta say I think A- is a little too high given it is quite physically frail for a wall, especially given its competition,. But its ability to wall a huge portion of the tier, including Ash-Greninja, as well as have reliable recovery, spead status its awesome defensive typing (with an extra immunity thanks to Storm Drain) and the fact Earthquake actually deals some damage when necessary. It has been a very good Pokemon that was simply slept on for a while and it deserves a raise.
I can't really support a rise for this guy anymore (I used to). HexGar is a good set, but it suffers from several glaring flaws, like its reliance on team support for status, its inability to break stall cores, its relative inability to handle most Heatran sets, its relative impotence against Toxapex, who can try to burn it or sponge its Z-Move. It performs (or tries to perform) a similar role to Heatran as a Taunt stallbreaker, but it can't touch Chansey or Sableye, and unlike Hoopa-U, Lele, Gliscor, and Keldeo, it lacks the boosting moves to really put that move to use. After 15% of chip it has 100% chance to lose to Heatran at 80% and it's not hard for it to take damage, frail as it is. A couple of months ago, I supported a rise out of pure versatility and the surprise factor of Z-Hex but now that HexGar is really the only set you see, it's not hard to play around it at all for most players.
More than anything with this mon I see opportunity cost wayyyy exceeding benefit. You're giving up your Z-Crystal for a fairly situational mon (similar to Z-Celebrate Victini, Z-Fly Gyara), you're giving up a ton of Defensive possibility (Gengar has approximately none), and you're giving your opponent another thing that Scarfers, fast sweepers, and even slower priority megabugs (Scizor, Pinsir) can 2HKO or even OHKO after a turn of setup. As a B rank it's well placed alongside Excadrill, Gyarados, ZardX, Mew, Kingdra, and Mamoswine.
Just to say, Gengar beats Chansey one on one. Chansey can't do shit to it when taunted (if running seismic toss, as is standard), so Gengar can whittle it down quite easily without any risk to itself. When taunted by Gengar, Chansey's only option is to switch out, or else it dies.
Just to say, Gengar beats Chansey one on one. Chansey can't do shit to it when taunted (if running seismic toss, as is standard), so Gengar can whittle it down quite easily without any risk to itself. When taunted by Gengar, Chansey's only option is to switch out, or else it dies.
That's his point. When you Taunt it, it either has to switch out or spam Seismic Toss against a target it can't even damage. You can chip it down without Taunt but unless you get multiple Sp. Def drops from Focus Blast, an early poison from Sludge Wave, or have already burnt some of its Softboiled PP you're not actually going to kill it.
Gengar is immune to ST, but Chansey still can beat it without taunt. For then, Chansey can PP/life orb recoil stall Gengar and heal easily - Life orb Focus Miss only has 8 PP and does roughly 30% (Specs does 35-41; obviously Z Move does even less), and sludge wave only does 20ish% (specs 20-25).
So if it's not taunted, Chansey outlasts Gengar, and forces it to switch out. If Gengar stays in, Chansey can set up rocks, and could T-Wave or Heal Bell or whatever, if it's not running toxic.
Specs/scarf Gengar could trick Chansey its item, but that's a different matter and very prediction reliant.
Taunt is needed to prevent Gengar from getting crippled by status like Thunder Wave (if they have it), and to also prevent Chansey from healing up with Softboiled. Otherwise you're both just sitting there PP stalling each other and you get nothing done.
I also support Clefable to A+. It provides a ton of utility between Stealth Rock, Wish, Knock Off, Calm Mind and being able to switch in to a ton of defensive mons like Gastrodon and Zapdos as well as offensive mons like Hawlucha and sometimes Zygarde. Wish support in particular is really nice for mons like Heatran and Lando, the former of which has been really good lately and it makes it easier for it to run a Z move variant while being able to heal up with Wish from Clefable. Being a dark resist also makes it easier to prevent Ash Ninja from spamming Dark Pulse and it's also a nice switch into Mega Latios, which has been getting a bit more use lately. It's splashable, extremely useful with it's support, and is a great choice for bulky offense and balance teams to use in the current meta.
This one might start some shit, so I'm sorry in advance, but does anyone else think Heatran could go to S rank with Lando? It's been really really annoying lately and every switch in gets crippled by Toxic or drops to a Z move. Gastrodon got popular to help handle this and while it's on the rise, Toxic still exists and Bloom Doom variants are coming back to handle it. Mega Latios and Zygarde can switch in, but again, Toxic puts them on a timer and for Zygarde and Gastrodon, Spikes really does a number on them and along with the residual damage from Magma Storm, can wear them down quickly. It's never easy to switch into this (unless you're winning a lot of 50/50's or dodging Magma Storm) and it puts a ton of pressure on opposing teams. Last thing would be that with Z move variants, you get an actual switch in to Torn-T if they don't have Superpower, and it also enjoys having Wish Clefable to help it with not getting worn down during longer battles.
For the third time, Z-Hex is not why this mon should rise, its a cool niche set that can work situationally but in my experience is simply worse than Specs, Scarf and Life Orb.
I'll also support Mega-Alakazam to A- I've not got much to add except that Calm Mind, which hasn't been mentioned, is absolutely deadly. honestly Alakazam's Special stats after a boost are unbelievable and it's speed is unmatched in the tier. This also means you don't have to rely on terrain if you can set up and live things like Scarf Blacephalons Shadow Ball.
Blacephalon is terrible, but more importantly it is being hyped way too much in either direction, rise two subranks or drop three? Blacephalon should stay B- in my opinion, it is among a very select few Ghost-types, it has a fantastic ability with OK Speed and good Special Attack. Fire-typing is a double-edged Sword, weakness to rocks means even resisted hits are often KO's. Sub CM is a funky idea but you can't even 2HKO Greninja without a boost, especially if you run that wack no SpAtk EV set someone floated, hell that set can't even 2HKO AV Magearna, which is the least I would expect a Fire-type breaker to do. Its Speed and SpAtk are both just subpar enough you really notice the lack in either when using Choice items, plus none of its moves are that great to be locked into. Plus it has absolutely 0 coverage not even Hidden Power [Fightining], which means it has no way to break through common checks. Losing to two of the most common mons in the tier, Scarf Kartana and Ash Greninja is a real boon to it and among that if not running Sub CM most common special walls will not be struggling.
Gastrodon to A-... to B+ agree, OK I gotta say I think A- is a little too high given it is quite physically frail for a wall, especially given its competition,. But its ability to wall a huge portion of the tier, including Ash-Greninja, as well as have reliable recovery, spead status its awesome defensive typing (with an extra immunity thanks to Storm Drain) and the fact Earthquake actually deals some damage when necessary. It has been a very good Pokemon that was simply slept on for a while and it deserves a raise.
I actually agree to some extent - versatility has always been Gengar's raison d'être. I've had some fun with the old ADV Perish Trap set, Sash Dbond, and Fight/Electrium-Z as the metagame has progressed but... it's never been that good. Gengar gets a free kill from being surprising, similar to Zoroark or a niche Z-move user. Once the surprise has been blown this thing simply can't hang with the rest of the offensive metagame - most of its sets have to ultimately answer to Tyranitar, Chansey, Sableye, Heatran, Pex, and even bulky Zygarde - it's just a lot of ground that this mon can't cover.
I get that there's more to this mon than just Z-hex but look at PSL, look at usage, look at OUPL or almost any tournament. Z-Hex barely gets used, and that's the most common set I see outside of an occasional (bad) HO Focus Sash set.
As always, I'm not saying Gengar's bad, I'm just saying it's not B+ worthy. It obviously has a niche, and I've torn some teams apart with it, but on the margin it's just not that good.
Just to say, Gengar beats Chansey one on one. Chansey can't do shit to it when taunted (if running seismic toss, as is standard), so Gengar can whittle it down quite easily without any risk to itself. When taunted by Gengar, Chansey's only option is to switch out, or else it dies.
You're 100% right that Gengar beats Chansey 1 to 1, but that's a pretty rare case compared to the more common case where, ya know, we're playing with 6 mons. Pretty much anything with Taunt beats Chansey 1v1, but its rare to actually corner it. What Chansey can do is block full-power Hex on any member of the team, provided that it predicts well. Chansey comes in and absorbs the Wisp or Hex, then swaps to something else that can take one of Gengar's other moves. Chansey can run (or just bluff) Twave, set Rocks, or Softboiled if Gengar does anything but Taunt, and Taunt won't do anything to lots of popular sweepers. It's an easy play and over time it'll result in Gengar getting worn down from hazards and chip damage, or at least having to waste FB's. Chansey can take 4 FB's itself before it dies, so it's fairly easy to get around Gengar if you mispredict.
