Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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I would also support Toxapex -> A+ and Charizard-Y -> B-.

I think both the rankings were a bit reactionary after the Dugtrio ban. Toxapex is great no doubt, but PsySpam is one of the strongest teambuilds right now (speaking from the ladder), as well as Tapu Lele and Koko both being utterly fantastic. Toxapex is also weak to Ground, which I think is the main problem for it as an S- mon. Also if we look at the top ranked mons in the tier, Landorus-T can obviously 1v1, Heatran can trap and remove, Magearna has little to fear (also Electrium Z still has around 13% usage), Kartana has an 87% chance to OHKO at +2 after Rocks, then we have the Tapu's I mentioned, Specs Dark Pulse from Ash-Greninja is a 10% to 2HKO after Rocks and also has the lovely flinch chance, Zygarde can obviously setup on it with so many running sub and lastly Volcarona packs Psychium Z 30% of the time. So actually in S, S- and A+ the only Pokemon that can't beat Toxapex are Ferrothorn and itself. Of course, a lot of them fear Burns and Toxic, but as its been pointed out, Spikes are pretty easy to avoid and Pex finds it pretty hard to spam Scald when so many mons can hit it really hard and set up.

As for Charizard Y, everything has been said, but other than Toxapex and Chansey few mons 'wall' or can switch in to Zard Y, also it has a pretty nice Spikes immunity, coverage and right now everyone expects ZardX which makes it particularly hard to switch into before Mega Evolution.
 
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Stakataka from C+ to B-.
I know Stakataka just dropped, but I truly believe that Stakataka deserves B-.
For one, any team lacking Gastrodon Hippowdon, or Mega Scizor is going to have a hard time switching in to Stakataka. Defensive Lando is extremley easy to wear down through teammates such as Zygarde, Heracross, or lures like Shuca Koko, or even defensive Lando mirror matchup. With Spikes support, Stakataka has a very easy time breaking through balanced teams that don’t utilize Celesteela, (though it can break through it sometimes.)
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 193-228 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 141-166 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With this Calc Stakataka can actually wear down Lando by itself.
252+ Atk Stakataka Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 230-272 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 276-326 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It also is possible you are at +1 considering that most people won’t switch in Heatran directly to Stakataka.
252+ Atk Stakataka Superpower vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 222-262 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 225-265 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex is at the same amount of damage after 2 spikes and Stealth Rock. Hard to break, but it isn’t completely hard countered like a lot of people think.

Stakataka also finds it easy to setup in the current metagame. It can set up on AV Magearna, Scarf Kartana, Clefable, Tyranitar, Koko IF at full health, Tornadus, Zapdos, the list goes on, I’m sure you get it.
8 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 87-103 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 132-156 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka in Electric Terrain: 262-310 (80.3 - 95%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 103-123 (31.5 - 37.7%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 112-133 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Finally, I have replays to show that Stakataka can be used to success.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-730524081
Was playing awful because I was tired but the WALL saved my ass
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-731411735
Vs Lucha Offense.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-728954046
The fool used Knock Off, giving me a freebie setup opportunity.

All of these factors make me believe that Stakataka is a step above the C+ mons and more on par with the B- mons. If not, it should definitely stay where it is.
 
View attachment 111461Stakataka from C+ to B-.
I know Stakataka just dropped, but I truly believe that Stakataka deserves B-.
For one, any team lacking Gastrodon Hippowdon, or Mega Scizor is going to have a hard time switching in to Stakataka. Defensive Lando is extremley easy to wear down through teammates such as Zygarde, Heracross, or lures like Shuca Koko, or even defensive Lando mirror matchup. With Spikes support, Stakataka has a very easy time breaking through balanced teams that don’t utilize Celesteela, (though it can break through it sometimes.)
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 193-228 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 141-166 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With this Calc Stakataka can actually wear down Lando by itself.
252+ Atk Stakataka Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 230-272 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 276-326 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It also is possible you are at +1 considering that most people won’t switch in Heatran directly to Stakataka.
252+ Atk Stakataka Superpower vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 222-262 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 225-265 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex is at the same amount of damage after 2 spikes and Stealth Rock. Hard to break, but it isn’t completely hard countered like a lot of people think.

Stakataka also finds it easy to setup in the current metagame. It can set up on AV Magearna, Scarf Kartana, Clefable, Tyranitar, Koko IF at full health, Tornadus, Zapdos, the list goes on, I’m sure you get it.
8 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 87-103 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 132-156 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka in Electric Terrain: 262-310 (80.3 - 95%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 103-123 (31.5 - 37.7%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 112-133 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Finally, I have replays to show that Stakataka can be used to success.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-730524081
Was playing awful because I was tired but the WALL saved my ass
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-731411735
Vs Lucha Offense.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-728954046
The fool used Knock Off, giving me a freebie setup opportunity.

All of these factors make me believe that Stakataka is a step above the C+ mons and more on par with the B- mons. If not, it should definitely stay where it is.
I was against Stakataka dropping precisely because it does have a clear niche in the meta as an OTR sweeper with a variety of favorable meta threats allowing you to set up TR. Landorus being hit by any random HP Ice or Thousand Arrows puts it in range of Stakatakas Gyro Ball or Continental Crush and Lando is most BO builds only answer to Stak other than Ferro. Does anyone here really think Terrakion is better (and easier to build with) in the current meta than Stak? These two absolutely compete for a spot despite their differences and I just think it’s definitely easier to clean/sweep with Stak than Terrakion rn, either raise Stak or drop Terrakion.
 
I was against Stakataka dropping precisely because it does have a clear niche in the meta as an OTR sweeper with a variety of favorable meta threats allowing you to set up TR. Landorus being hit by any random HP Ice or Thousand Arrows puts it in range of Stakatakas Gyro Ball or Continental Crush and Lando is most BO builds only answer to Stak other than Ferro. Does anyone here really think Terrakion is better (and easier to build with) in the current meta than Stak? These two absolutely compete for a spot despite their differences and I just think it’s definitely easier to clean/sweep with Stak than Terrakion rn, either raise Stak or drop Terrakion.
How are those two even comparable? One utilizes Trick Room to sweep and the other can just attack right away or setup
 
How are those two even comparable? One utilizes Trick Room to sweep and the other can just attack right away or setup
Both are offensive rock types carrying similar / identical coverage both largely needing a Z crystal and have many of the same checks so it's really hard / impossible to justify using both on a team.
 
Gengar dropped because it now faces a lot of competition from Blacephelon as an offensive Ghost-type breaker. Even with Focus Blast, it still can't really break AV T-tar, and its extra Speed isn't super significant considering Keldeo is still seen running Scarf a lot of times and Latios is a Speed tie.
I know this hasn't been nominated for a few pages, but I was using Gengar the other day and I am surprised there isn't more support for a Gengar
Rise to B+,
alongside Pelipper, Weavile, Mega-Tyranitar and Mega-Venusaur, rather than down with Alomomola, Gastrodon, Excadrill, Suicune and Garchomp. I quoted the reasoning for it dropping to B from right at the beginning of USM. To address the points:

Blacephalon gives it a lot of competition as a breaker: Sure, but Blacephalon has dropped from A- to B- since then, a huge drop that has seen it end up below Gengar after starting above. I'd actually argue that without Gengar, Blacephalon would be ranked higher. Offensive Poison-types are few and far between which is significant because of the Tapu-run meta-game, in fact the only other one I can think of would be Nihilego, in C-? Fire-types on the other hand are pretty plentiful, between two Charizard formes, Victini, Volcarona and Volcanion.

Can't break AV Tyranitar: I always found this a bit odd because pretty much everybody with even half decent metagame knowledge knew that Naganadel was going to get banned and subsequently AV Tyranitar has really fallen off, sitting at just 5% item usage (which I believe doesn't include the Mega-stone).
+----------------------------------------+
| Tyranitar |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Choice Band 55.837% |
| Focus Sash 23.045% |
| Choice Scarf 6.975% |
| Assault Vest 5.353% |
+----------------------------------------+
Its extra speed isn't significant: I can totally see why at the time this was deemed the case, but I think it is apparent in this meta that 110 speed is a really neat speed tier. Most notably outspeeding Kartana which is really awesome. Though Scarf isn't recommended on the Smogon dex it is sitting at 39% usage as its most common item, and outspeeding every Scarfer bar Koko and Greninja is really great, especially as it can OHKO Ash-Greninja (and survive Water Shuriken from 100% HP), Kartana, Blacephalon, Tapu Lele (87.5% or 100% with Rocks) and Tapu Koko, as well as a huge number of 2HKO's which makes it very hard to switch into once dedicated Specially Defensive walls are down (also notably it beats Chansey 1v1 thanks to Toxic and Seismic Toss immunity).
+----------------------------------------+
| Gengar |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Choice Scarf 39.262% |
| Choice Specs 25.777% |
| Focus Sash 13.153% |
| Life Orb 8.448% |
| Ghostium Z 6.688% |
| Black Sludge 3.251% |
| Other 3.422% |
+----------------------------------------+
Keldeo Scarf and Latios tie: Both of these Pokemon have really fallen off and neither of them commonly run Scarf, usually Z-Crystal and Mega-stone respectively plus, as I just stated, Scarf Gengar is actually pretty common and effective right now.

Other than the reasons for the initial drop being kind of defunct there are a few more reasons I think it should rise. Beating Mega-Medicham is huge. One that I think may seem small but I have really loved is Electrium Z Gengar, a really great and under utilised lure, especially with Koko being more splashable than ever. In terrain it OHKO's Toxapex and Celesteela and effectively lures them, it also puts huge dents in things like Zapdos, which it would otherwise have trouble breaking. Specs is still a really strong breaker with a fancy speed tier and Z-Hex is pretty good, especially in tandem with Will-O-Wisp and can be devastating when paired with a user of Toxic, Toxic Spikes and (in my opinion the best being:) Thunder Wave. Tech like Taunt, Substitute, Hidden Power and Destiny Bond can make it actually very easy to customise and slot into teams. All-in-all I really think meta trends since the beginning of USM have favoured Gengar and the overrating of Blacephalon encouraged a huge dip in usage that in my opinion was kind of unwarranted, I wouldn't be surprised if Gengar starts gaining traction again and rises to OU in the near future.
Unboosted Attack:
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 392-464 (139.5 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 408-484 (118.9 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 348-410 (122.1 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 248-294 (76.7 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 352-416 (97.5 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 252-296 (100.3 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Specs
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 476-562 (121.7 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 506-596 (128.4 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 253-298 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Z Moves
252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 322-380 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 488-576 (122.9 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 368-434 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 250-295 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 286-337 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I haven't calced any Pokemon twice so just keep in mind each set can generally hit mons listed under other sets.
Edit: Thanks for the replay robopoke, I kinda want to keep my team hidden for a bit cause I'm working on one for an RMT lol.
 
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M
ega Alakazam
to A-.

I've been using this monster a lot lately and I truly think it is deserving of a rise to A-. Now let me explain why:

Firstly, I think its ranking is just not ideally reflected, for a Pokémon as strong as Mega Alakazam which is a big pain for Bulky Offense and Balance, arguably the two best playstyles right now, thanks to its great matchup against such archetypes, to be only in B+ alongside the likes of Rotom-W and Tangrowth, is really not ideal. Instead, it fits a lot better in A- where Mega Lopunny and Mega Pinsir reside, both of which really shouldn't be ranked above it in terms of viability. Overall, its matchup against the metagame is truly devastating when backed up by Psychic Terrain, which brings me to my next point.

Psychic Spam is a really good playstyle at the moment, the combination of Tapu Lele and Kanto's bearded spoon master is truly terrifying as most Psychic checks easily get worn down by the combination of the surging Z-move Lele set and Psychics, Focus Blasts and Shadow Balls from this guy. Checks like Magearna, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela lack reliable recovery and are thus easy to wear down, Jirachi is a solid check but it is in all honesty quite rare to prevent Zam from rising in my humble opinion, and even then, Tapu Lele can use Z-Madness to nuke it down with ease.

Finally, Alakazam's Speed tier is really overlooked, to outrun it you pretty much need either a Scarfer, a terrain sweeper, or a weather sweeper. In the former case Choice Scarf is probably the easiest item to take advantage of, and in all honesty, most Scarfers nowadays are in kind of a bad spot. As for weather and terrain sweepers, they require tons of support to work reliably, specially Hawlucha which only gets to use its Seed once, so in all fairness, the aspect of Zam's blistering speed really makes it difficult for Balance and Bulky Offense teams to catch up, as they often lack the speed or defensive backbone to take it on.

Thus, I think it's only fair to move Mega Alakazam up to A-, thanks for reading :)
 
Finally, Alakazam's Speed tier is really overlooked, to outrun it you pretty much need either a Scarfer, a terrain sweeper, or a weather sweeper. In the former case Choice Scarf is probably the easiest item to take advantage of, and in all honesty, most Scarfers nowadays are in kind of a bad spot. As for weather and terrain sweepers, they require tons of support to work reliably, specially Hawlucha which only gets to use its Seed once, so in all fairness, the aspect of Zam's blistering speed really makes it difficult for Balance and Bulky Offense teams to catch up, as they often lack the speed or defensive backbone to take it on.

Thus, I think it's only fair to move Mega Alakazam up to A-, thanks for reading :)
It is worth mentioning that Zam can just trace swift swim/sand rush/surge surfer/etc. making those pokemon easily revenge killed unless they put it in a position to trace something else. All the more reason for it to rise I suppose.
 
M
ega Alakazam
to A-.
the points u brought up for a rise make sense but i'm wondering about some points which u didn't mention well enough to me though. the thing is zam and lele that isn't specs usually both get walled by av bulu, which is extremely common on bulky offense which u said zam has a good matchup against since it can recover it's hp back with horn leech. u can argue that z natures madness by lele can bring bulu down low enough but usually av bulu is very commonly paired with heatran which also resists lele stabs and forgoing something like calm mind for nature's madness can compromise lele's abilities to wreak havoc on ferro+pex & also smart players wont let bulu take unecessary dmg on bulu if they see psychic spam. there's also the issue of celesteela, even though that's seen a bit of decline in usage but it's still used coz it's still very good.

also, i think spikes are mandatory with psychic spam teams utilizing zam+lele, at least imo if they want to ensure winnable matchups vs. all types of teams, especially those utilizing av bulu + tran which means u either need something like greninja or ferrothorn. alternatively, something to lure av bulu works too. that means u have 3 slots left and u kinda need something for celesteela too like zygarde, rockium z landot or heatran to help with this. also, there's things to worry about like not making a team that gets easily swept by hawlucha which kinda puts a constrain on teambuilding with the remaining 3 slots.

anyhow, i'm not the best with putting my views across but i'm not trying to shit on u or anything like that, no. i'm not against zam rising coz the points u brought up do make sense to me i just wanna know how ur dealing with av bulu + tran and also celesteela *which has declined a bit in usage* with ur zam team. if u can provide replays for us to see, it would be nice.
 
Just to clarify, I agree with a zam rise. But I don't like it when people use Tangrowth as a basis for a B+ rise. It gets really good usage for a B+ mon in a variety of tournament and ladder settings and is closer to A- than any other mon besides Zam in that rank, in my opinion. It's honestly not that bad and is one of the better mons in that rank.
 
M
ega Alakazam
to A-.

I've been using this monster a lot lately and I truly think it is deserving of a rise to A-. Now let me explain why:

Firstly, I think its ranking is just not ideally reflected, for a Pokémon as strong as Mega Alakazam which is a big pain for Bulky Offense and Balance, arguably the two best playstyles right now, thanks to its great matchup against such archetypes, to be only in B+ alongside the likes of Rotom-W and Tangrowth, is really not ideal. Instead, it fits a lot better in A- where Mega Lopunny and Mega Pinsir reside, both of which really shouldn't be ranked above it in terms of viability. Overall, its matchup against the metagame is truly devastating when backed up by Psychic Terrain, which brings me to my next point.

Psychic Spam is a really good playstyle at the moment, the combination of Tapu Lele and Kanto's bearded spoon master is truly terrifying as most Psychic checks easily get worn down by the combination of the surging Z-move Lele set and Psychics, Focus Blasts and Shadow Balls from this guy. Checks like Magearna, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela lack reliable recovery and are thus easy to wear down, Jirachi is a solid check but it is in all honesty quite rare to prevent Zam from rising in my humble opinion, and even then, Tapu Lele can use Z-Madness to nuke it down with ease.

Finally, Alakazam's Speed tier is really overlooked, to outrun it you pretty much need either a Scarfer, a terrain sweeper, or a weather sweeper. In the former case Choice Scarf is probably the easiest item to take advantage of, and in all honesty, most Scarfers nowadays are in kind of a bad spot. As for weather and terrain sweepers, they require tons of support to work reliably, specially Hawlucha which only gets to use its Seed once, so in all fairness, the aspect of Zam's blistering speed really makes it difficult for Balance and Bulky Offense teams to catch up, as they often lack the speed or defensive backbone to take it on.

Thus, I think it's only fair to move Mega Alakazam up to A-, thanks for reading :)
While I can agree with Zam being viable due to its matchup against Bulky Offense and Balance, as well as an stellar movepool, I would like to point out why it should not rise, imo.

For one, this mon is only really viable in Psychic Spam teams. It is too weak to effectively wallbreak otherwise. It is also a mon that is very weak to priority without Lele's Terrain, fearing mons like Scizor and Mamo after minimal chip, and straight up dying to +2 Scizor. Even with Terrain protection, this mon is very easy to revenge even from full, with common Scarfers like Greninja and Lando being able to not only kill it, but maintain momentum as they do it. While that point may seem moot, consider the fact that this mon has no defensive value whatsoever, being unable to ever come in on what most of the OU tier can throw at it. While it is a fantastic mon, it is restrictive for teambuilding and must be supported heavily, thus not earning the versatility most of the A- and above mons bring, in my opinion.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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While I can agree with Zam being viable due to its matchup against Bulky Offense and Balance, as well as an stellar movepool, I would like to point out why it should not rise, imo.

For one, this mon is only really viable in Psychic Spam teams. It is too weak to effectively wallbreak otherwise. It is also a mon that is very weak to priority without Lele's Terrain, fearing mons like Scizor and Mamo after minimal chip, and straight up dying to +2 Scizor. Even with Terrain protection, this mon is very easy to revenge even from full, with common Scarfers like Greninja and Lando being able to not only kill it, but maintain momentum as they do it. While that point may seem moot, consider the fact that this mon has no defensive value whatsoever, being unable to ever come in on what most of the OU tier can throw at it. While it is a fantastic mon, it is restrictive for teambuilding and must be supported heavily, thus not earning the versatility most of the A- and above mons bring, in my opinion.
I'm sorry but I think you're completely wrong, mzam can absolutely wallbreak outside of terrain and provides defensive utility.
Not only is mega alakazam perfectly strong without psychic terrain, it can even snowball by itself by tracing beast boost/soul heart, it can provide defensive value by tracing regenerator from passive pokemon like toxapex/alomomola and easily switch in.
But most importantly, Recover Mega Alakazam is actually a stellar heatran check, being able to trace flash fire, be immune to magma storm, recover off earth power damage, and focus blast to OHKO after chip/2hko.

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 95-112 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 310-366 (95.9 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

All you kind of fear is toxic, and you win as long as you can hit a focus blast or two either way.

Because it serves as such a solid heatran check, it easily fits itself into tran-weak balance cores such as ferro+hippo or celepex.
You're completely correct that it's kind of a problem that scarf lando-t can keep momentum AND revenge kill, but its worth remembering that mega alakazam actually outspeeds bulky scarf variants, so thats not always a surefire strategy unless you purposefully speed creep.

and like previously mentioned before, scarfers in general are kind of in a shit position, with scarf gren meaning you can't run ash or protean spikes, scarf lele providing terrain for u (and not ohkoing you), scarf kartana actually having potential to be taken advantage of if you switch in after a kill on sacred sword, you can trace beast boost and threaten the +1 kill, and mons like scarf keldeo/latios can't ohko and you can recover off the damage to scout.
 
I'm sorry but I think you're completely wrong, mzam can absolutely wallbreak outside of terrain and provides defensive utility.
Not only is mega alakazam perfectly strong without psychic terrain, it can even snowball by itself by tracing beast boost/soul heart, it can provide defensive value by tracing regenerator from passive pokemon like toxapex/alomomola and easily switch in.
But most importantly, Recover Mega Alakazam is actually a stellar heatran check, being able to trace flash fire, be immune to magma storm, recover off earth power damage, and focus blast to OHKO after chip/2hko.

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 95-112 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 310-366 (95.9 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

All you kind of fear is toxic, and you win as long as you can hit a focus blast or two either way.

Because it serves as such a solid heatran check, it easily fits itself into tran-weak balance cores such as ferro+hippo or celepex.
You're completely correct that it's kind of a problem that scarf lando-t can keep momentum AND revenge kill, but its worth remembering that mega alakazam actually outspeeds bulky scarf variants, so thats not always a surefire strategy unless you purposefully speed creep.

and like previously mentioned before, scarfers in general are kind of in a shit position, with scarf gren meaning you can't run ash or protean spikes, scarf lele providing terrain for u (and not ohkoing you), scarf kartana actually having potential to be taken advantage of if you switch in after a kill on sacred sword, you can trace beast boost and threaten the +1 kill, and mons like scarf keldeo/latios can't ohko and you can recover off the damage to scout.
Just a small nitpick, bulky scarf landos run 196 specifically for Mega Alakazam a lot of the time, the only bulky scarf set I've seen that doesn't hit that benchmark is Eo's.
 
M
ega Alakazam
to A-.

I've been using this monster a lot lately and I truly think it is deserving of a rise to A-. Now let me explain why:

Firstly, I think its ranking is just not ideally reflected, for a Pokémon as strong as Mega Alakazam which is a big pain for Bulky Offense and Balance, arguably the two best playstyles right now, thanks to its great matchup against such archetypes, to be only in B+ alongside the likes of Rotom-W and Tangrowth, is really not ideal. Instead, it fits a lot better in A- where Mega Lopunny and Mega Pinsir reside, both of which really shouldn't be ranked above it in terms of viability. Overall, its matchup against the metagame is truly devastating when backed up by Psychic Terrain, which brings me to my next point.

Psychic Spam is a really good playstyle at the moment, the combination of Tapu Lele and Kanto's bearded spoon master is truly terrifying as most Psychic checks easily get worn down by the combination of the surging Z-move Lele set and Psychics, Focus Blasts and Shadow Balls from this guy. Checks like Magearna, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela lack reliable recovery and are thus easy to wear down, Jirachi is a solid check but it is in all honesty quite rare to prevent Zam from rising in my humble opinion, and even then, Tapu Lele can use Z-Madness to nuke it down with ease.

Finally, Alakazam's Speed tier is really overlooked, to outrun it you pretty much need either a Scarfer, a terrain sweeper, or a weather sweeper. In the former case Choice Scarf is probably the easiest item to take advantage of, and in all honesty, most Scarfers nowadays are in kind of a bad spot. As for weather and terrain sweepers, they require tons of support to work reliably, specially Hawlucha which only gets to use its Seed once, so in all fairness, the aspect of Zam's blistering speed really makes it difficult for Balance and Bulky Offense teams to catch up, as they often lack the speed or defensive backbone to take it on.

Thus, I think it's only fair to move Mega Alakazam up to A-, thanks for reading :)
Let me summarize the points:
a) B+ does not represent Mega Alakazams viability
b) It has good matchup against BO and Balance
c) It is more similiar to Mega Pinsir and Mega Lopunny who are in A- instead to Tangrowth and Rotom-W who are in B+
d) Psychic Spam is a good playstyle with Lele
e) Celesteela, Magearna and Ferrothorn are easy to wear down
f) Jirachi can be Z-Nature Madnessed
g) People forget how fast Mega Zam is. Unboosted, nothing is faster than Mega Zam. Scarfer-> you take advantage of that. Rain abusers -> needs ton of support. Hawlucha-> only onetime use


My answer:
a) This is not an argument for a raise if you think it does not represent B+ but I can accept this as an opener for a raise proposal
b) It has a kinda good MU against BO and Balance but you provide 0 reasons. You could have said something like you can stay unmegaed to take no Spikes and how this allows it to stay healthy throughout the game. How it can trace Regenerator, commonly used on BO and Balance etc.
Even then, being kinda good against BO and Balance does not automatically make you A-.
c) Of course Mega Zam is more similiar to Mega Pinsir and Mega Lopunny compared to Tangrowth and Rotom-W. They are all Megas and are kinda fast and strong. Tangrowth and Rotom-W are pivots. If you wanna compare a mon between two rankings, use mons who do a similiar job.
d) Where is your proof? Or do you expect every reader to instantly know "yea, must be right". For you, I do think that Psychic Spam is good but Mega Zam is not needed on that playstyle. You can just as well use Victini, Hoopa-U, Volcarona with Z-Psychic or mons who just appreciate priority being blocked.
e) Ferrothorn is not even a counter. Magearna lacks reliable recovery but there is this trend with Wish Clefable. Regardless of that, AV Magearna being worn down over the course of a game is something we already know. We also know everything about Celesteela. If you said something like "Celesteela usage went down" then this would make sense
f) Jirachi is a good answer to your definition of Psychic Spam which includes Lele+Zam. However, Mega Zam Shadow Ball hurts Jirachi really hard so you do not need extreme measures like Z-Natures Madness.
g) Scarfers can be taken advantage off but Lando-T and Greninja can revengekill with U-Turn while regaining momentum. Rain does not need heavy support, just Pelipper turn 1. Hawlucha outspeeding you is a huge thing. I would have expected a recommendation to use a Hawlucha counter like Zapdos on a Mega Zam Psychic Spam team. With Static, you can also punish U-Turners with a paralysis. But you just say Hawlucha is onetimeseed.. Also with Sticky Web you can outspeed Mega Zam. If you go all out and mention the small list of options to outspeed Mega Zam, mention all to be fair.

Conclusion: Mega Zam should not rise because the reasons provided did not convince me
 
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Let me summarize the points:
a) B+ does not represent Mega Alakazams viability
b) It has good matchup against BO and Balance
c) It is more similiar to Mega Pinsir and Mega Lopunny who are in A- instead to Tangrowth and Rotom-W who are in B+
d) Psychic Spam is a good playstyle with Lele
e) Celesteela, Magearna and Ferrothorn are easy to wear down
f) Jirachi can be Z-Nature Madnessed
g) People forget how fast Mega Zam is. Unboosted, nothing is faster than Mega Zam. Scarfer-> you take advantage of that. Rain abusers -> needs ton of support. Hawlucha-> only onetime use


My answer:
a) This is not an argument for a raise if you think it does not represent B+ but I can accept this as an opener for a raise proposal
b) It has a kinda good MU against BO and Balance but you provide 0 reasons. You could have said something like you can stay unmegaed to take no Spikes and how this allows it to stay healthy throughout the game. How it can trace Regenerator, commonly used on BO and Balance etc.
Even then, being kinda good against BO and Balance does not automatically make you A-.
c) Of course Mega Zam is more similiar to Mega Pinsir and Mega Lopunny compared to Tangrowth and Rotom-W. They are all Megas and are kinda fast and strong. Tangrowth and Rotom-W are pivots. If you wanna compare a mon between two rankings, use mons who do a similiar job.
d) Where is your proof? Or do you expect every reader to instantly know "yea, must be right". For you, I do think that Psychic Spam is good but Mega Zam is not needed on that playstyle. You can just as well use Victini, Hoopa-U, Volcarona with Z-Psychic or mons who just appreciate priority being blocked.
e) Ferrothorn is not even a counter. Magearna lacks reliable recovery but there is this trend with Wish Clefable. Regardless of that, AV Magearna being worn down over the course of a game is something we already know. We also know everything about Celesteela. If you said something like "Celesteela usage went down" then this would make sense
f) Jirachi is a good answer to your definition of Psychic Spam which includes Lele+Zam. However, Mega Zam Shadow Ball hurts Jirachi really hard so you do not need extreme measures like Z-Natures Madness.
g) Scarfers can be taken advantage off but Lando-T and Greninja can revengekill with U-Turn while regaining momentum. Rain does not need heavy support, just Pelipper turn 1. Hawlucha outspeeding you is a huge thing. I would have expected a recommendation to use a Hawlucha counter like Zapdos on a Mega Zam Psychic Spam team. With Static, you can also punish U-Turners with a paralysis. But you just say Hawlucha is onetimeseed.. Also with Sticky Web you can outspeed Mega Zam. If you go all out and mention the small list of options to outspeed Mega Zam, mention all to be fair.

Conclusion: Mega Zam should not rise because the reasons provided did not convince me
NGL, you're right about some of the reasons in the nom not being very good reasons or well explained, but I do think mega zam is worthy of a rise. Parts of some of these arguments are quite promising, so I'll expand on some of them.

First of all, the lop comparison. Both of which are very fast megas that have a very good offense matchup. Lop, despite being more powerful, has a worse matchup with fatter teams, struggling to break through common balance mons like Pex that Zam has no issue with. Granted, Lop does have the Encore + PuP set to give it a better matchup here, but this set has more trouble against offense and no longer has ice punch for lando, which is a problem for it. Zam doesn't need any specialized set to threaten balance, and also (as you mentioned) can trace regenerator and also has magic guard pre-mega which help it to stay healthy. I've even successfully used trace to take abilities like natural cure and poison heal to use it as a status absorber on offensive teams in bad situations to help turn the game around (it can also stay non mega with magic guard to do the same thing a little more reliably). Also, playstyles like rain give Lop trouble as the rain sweepers outspeed Lop due to swift swim, while Zam has a very good matchup with rain due to trace taking swift swim, particularly if it has energy ball (niche but an option). This is a big + for offense, which typically struggles with rain. Zam also has more defensive utility than Lop, such as being used as a heatran check due to trace + recover, which is very important as tran has very few good offensive checks, and those it does have are easily worn down if they have to come in repeatedly. Overall, I would say Lop and Zam are similar in terms of viability, while Lop is more adaptable and a little more splashable as it generally isn't paired with a particular tapu like Zam is with lele, Zam definitely has better defensive utility.

Talking about Zam's speed, you mention rain and hawlucha as things that outspeed it and threaten it. While this is true to some extent, it only really applies if Zam is already in. If Zam traces swift swim (this is not difficult, there is almost always something you can sack V rain to get Zam in easily), it can revenge all of the rain sweepers with either psychic terrain up or a little chip in Swampert's case (also remember energy ball is an option). Hawlucha is a problem, but remember you often have a Lele beside your Zam, so you can play terrain wars to try to prevent it from getting it's unburden boost, and also Lucha is not safe to set up on you and it is a roll in your favour from full. Yeah being revenged by u-turners like scarfed lando/gren isn't nice, or easy to take advantage of, but it can be done by things that punish contact attackers like static zap or tankchomp (although rare, it works on some teams). I don't really see your point in mentioning sticky web, that's the same for literally any fast mon that isnt airborne. Webs is a niche playstyle that Zam doesn't have a great matchup with to be fair, but I don't think this was the right way to mention it's poor webs matchup. We've only considered the unboosted meta in the nom, but Zam also outspeeds some other cool things like +1 gyara (as well as some worse DDers like Dragonite), which can often be problematic for offense if they don't have the appropriate scarfer, so to be able to damage all of them sufficiently in one slot is nice. It's also worth mentioning that most Zygarde don't run enough speed to outpace Zam at +1 and Espeed at +1 doesn't ohko, so while it isn't a zyg answer, it can pick off a zyg that wasn't given enough time to set up fully. Zam is also one of the rare mons that can actually deal a chunk to both gyaras, with fblast KOing mega after rocks and psychic dealing a minimum of 55 to regular, which is often enough to finish it off as it probably took some damage setting up, and it KOs after rocks if terrain is up.

You've already mentioned why Jirachi isn't a reliable answer to this, but I disagree that mentioning it's checks are really easy to wear down isn't a relevant comment. Yes we already know this, but there's no harm in mentioning it because otherwise someone comes along and mentions how it's checked by them, causing a response that addresses it with a comment about them being worn down, so it's worth getting it out of the way in the original nom. You also mentioned that Celesteela usage dropped, which is nice for it as it doesn't really have a way around it other than zap cannon. Also I have no idea why the original nom didn't go into how Zam has gained a lot of traction as the premiere tran switch in on offense, I know srn mentioned this later but this is a pretty big point in it's favour, considering how few there are that the first few that come to mind are balloon tran keldeo, tankchomp and rotom-w, none of which are stellar and the latter barely fits on offense. While it has little room for other options, I had some fun using encore to screw over things like CM clef (although its not a reliable option like recover, it is very fun), and a couple of other moves like energy ball for the rain matchup and dazzling gleam to lure msab are niche picks that work on some teams (although having to drop either recover or shadow ball is really horrible).

TLDR: Mega Zam for A-

Edit: Just a short bit on what I think of the other noms:
Stakataka to B-: Disagree, this mon is really hard to fit onto teams, and while it probably is one of the better C+ mons it fits in more with the good but niche stuff like Araqua far more than it does with the B- stuff.
Gengar to B+: Agree, someone has already gone into this in enough detail but idk why blace was ever considered better than this, I'll take outpacing Kart and breaking ttar over more power any day. Blace is the better stallbreaker, but Gengar is far better against the other playstyles imo.
Pex to A+: Not too sure about this one, imo people have always over prepared for pex because no one likes breaking fat regen mons by outplaying so they just make sure all their mons beat it instead. This does make pex a bit worse, but then again it is still "meta defining" due to it, which is what the S ranks are for, which makes me want to keep it there.
 
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NGL, you're right about some of the reasons in the nom not being very good reasons or well explained, but I do think mega zam is worthy of a rise. Parts of some of these arguments are quite promising, so I'll expand on some of them.

First of all, the lop comparison. Both of which are very fast megas that have a very good offense matchup. Lop, despite being more powerful, has a worse matchup with fatter teams, struggling to break through common balance mons like Pex that Zam has no issue with. Granted, Lop does have the Encore + PuP set to give it a better matchup here, but this set has more trouble against offense and no longer has ice punch for lando, which is a problem for it. Zam doesn't need any specialized set to threaten balance, and also (as you mentioned) can trace regenerator and also has magic guard pre-mega which help it to stay healthy. I've even successfully used trace to take abilities like natural cure and poison heal to use it as a status absorber on offensive teams in bad situations to help turn the game around (it can also stay non mega with magic guard to do the same thing a little more reliably). Also, playstyles like rain give Lop trouble as the rain sweepers outspeed Lop due to swift swim, while Zam has a very good matchup with rain due to trace taking swift swim, particularly if it has energy ball (niche but an option). This is a big + for offense, which typically struggles with rain. Zam also has more defensive utility than Lop, such as being used as a heatran check due to trace + recover, which is very important as tran has very few good offensive checks, and those it does have are easily worn down if they have to come in repeatedly. Overall, I would say Lop and Zam are similar in terms of viability, while Lop is more adaptable and a little more splashable as it generally isn't paired with a particular tapu like Zam is with lele, Zam definitely has better defensive utility.

Talking about Zam's speed, you mention rain and hawlucha as things that outspeed it and threaten it. While this is true to some extent, it only really applies if Zam is already in. If Zam traces swift swim (this is not difficult, there is almost always something you can sack V rain to get Zam in easily), it can revenge all of the rain sweepers with either psychic terrain up or a little chip in Swampert's case (also remember energy ball is an option). Hawlucha is a problem, but remember you often have a Lele beside your Zam, so you can play terrain wars to try to prevent it from getting it's unburden boost, and also Lucha is not safe to set up on you and it is a roll in your favour from full. Yeah being revenged by u-turners like scarfed lando/gren isn't nice, or easy to take advantage of, but it can be done by things that punish contact attackers like static zap or tankchomp (although rare, it works on some teams). I don't really see your point in mentioning sticky web, that's the same for literally any fast mon that isnt airborne. Webs is a niche playstyle that Zam doesn't have a great matchup with to be fair, but I don't think this was the right way to mention it's poor webs matchup. We've only considered the unboosted meta in the nom, but Zam also outspeeds some other cool things like +1 gyara (as well as some worse DDers like Dragonite), which can often be problematic for offense if they don't have the appropriate scarfer, so to be able to damage all of them sufficiently in one slot is nice. It's also worth mentioning that most Zygarde don't run enough speed to outpace Zam at +1 and Espeed at +1 doesn't ohko, so while it isn't a zyg answer, it can pick off a zyg that wasn't given enough time to set up fully. Zam is also one of the rare mons that can actually deal a chunk to both gyaras, with fblast KOing mega after rocks and psychic dealing a minimum of 55 to regular, which is often enough to finish it off as it probably took some damage setting up, and it KOs after rocks if terrain is up.

You've already mentioned why Jirachi isn't a reliable answer to this, but I disagree that mentioning it's checks are really easy to wear down isn't a relevant comment. Yes we already know this, but there's no harm in mentioning it because otherwise someone comes along and mentions how it's checked by them, causing a response that addresses it with a comment about them being worn down, so it's worth getting it out of the way in the original nom. You also mentioned that Celesteela usage dropped, which is nice for it as it doesn't really have a way around it other than zap cannon. Also I have no idea why the original nom didn't go into how Zam has gained a lot of traction as the premiere tran switch in on offense, I know srn mentioned this later but this is a pretty big point in it's favour, considering how few there are that the first few that come to mind are balloon tran keldeo, tankchomp and rotom-w, none of which are stellar and the latter barely fits on offense. While it has little room for other options, I had some fun using encore to screw over things like CM clef (although its not a reliable option like recover, it is very fun), and a couple of other moves like energy ball for the rain matchup and dazzling gleam to lure msab are niche picks that work on some teams (although having to drop either recover or shadow ball is really horrible).

TLDR: Mega Zam for A-

Edit: Just a short bit on what I think of the other noms:
Stakataka to B-: Disagree, this mon is really hard to fit onto teams, and while it probably is one of the better C+ mons it fits in more with the good but niche stuff like Araqua far more than it does with the B- stuff.
Gengar to B+: Agree, someone has already gone into this in enough detail but idk why blace was ever considered better than this, I'll take outpacing Kart and breaking ttar over more power any day. Blace is the better stallbreaker, but Gengar is far better against the other playstyles imo.
Pex to A+: Not too sure about this one, imo people have always over prepared for pex because no one likes breaking fat regen mons by outplaying so they just make sure all their mons beat it instead. This does make pex a bit worse, but then again it is still "meta defining" due to it, which is what the S ranks are for, which makes me want to keep it there.
This is why I do not like communication via text. But I still try:
Your post is very good because you go much deeper into detail and mention Recover as a possibility to switch into Trans which is very hard. You mention Trace Swift Swim as a possibility with Energy Ball or Psychic Terrain boosted Psychic. You also mentioned that you still outspeed setupsweepers like +1 Zygarde or Mega Gyarados. Overall your post is qualitywise superior to the initial post. What I have as a goal is that people use good arguments like you have done whenever they want to propose a rise or drop.

I just ask from everyone who genuinly wants to a mon to drop or rise to consider current metagame trends, current usage and viability of checks and counters, current viability of partners that are maybe easier or harder to fit into teams and maybe even mention the currently best Set in your opinion. Thank you.


In your edit you consider Gengar to be better than Blace for two reasons: It can kill TTar, outspeed Kartana and it is (in your opinion) better against playstyles that are not Stall. However, Gengar is a breaker and Blace can be a sweeper as well. The only defensive counterplay is a healthy, Spd Pex, Gastrodon and TTar. The offensive counterplay (or otherwise called checks) can be mitigated with a specific spread that gives you a speedboost after a kill. The threat of Specs/Scarf can give you a free CM/Sub thus a free kill. The Set I am talking about is SubCM with Ghostium Z and close to max hp, max Spe to get a Speedboost after a kill. Just for you, Gengar cannot do this even though Gengar is supposed to be far better in MU other than Stall?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-732194944
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-732662046
 
Well considering my computer hung itself it's been a while since I've made a (legitimate) post on here, so I guess I'll attempt to add something to the current discussions.

Mega Alakazam to A-: Agree.

To my understanding, mega alakazam earned it's place in B+ due to it being great with the correct team support (lele) which is similar to other pokemon in B+ such as swampert and sableye. However, due to my understanding of it's initial ranking from a few months ago being shaky at best I'll try to not base my entire argument off of this assessment. For this most part, zam sticks out like a sore thumb in B+.

Mega Alakazam is far from a stale pokemon, with new innovations such as knock off or the (rare) thunder wave strengthening match-ups vs a playstyle your team may struggle with. For example, knock off is able to support not only alakazam but it's teammates by knocking off chansey, AV bulu, celesteela, AV magerna, and even scarfers that would be able to eat a hit and scare zam out. How does this relate to it being above every B+ mega? Well, no mega in B+ has the ability to be so versatile with it's matchups.
Alakazam is able to be a huge threat to HO if you play it correctly, as HO pretty much picks one if the opponent is unable to threaten alakazam every turn and deny teamates volturning into it.

Versus bulky offense, which tends to carry something like av bulu or celesteela (as pointed out above) which can in theory due well vs psyspam, but if you take into account other factors such as spike support and the (admittedly situational) tech of knock off or lures such as Z lele or specs psyshock lele, these pokemon will no doubt be pressured throughout the match. Also, you can trace abilities from passive shit like pex and chansey to ignore status/get back health throughout the match.

Versus balance, the same factors apply as above, but with arguably less offensive presence to keep alakazam at bay. Honestly there's not much to say other than with correct team support to lure/trap celesteela and other fat shit that can switch in without much stress.

Versus stall, knock off preforms amazingly despite four slot syndrome, and with eviolite gone chansey gets blown into the next dimension by focus blast and psyshock. While sableye is an annoyance, it's not like it's that hard to pressure or like d-gleam is that unreasonable if your luck sucks or you don't feel you need focus blast if you have something like t-tar in the back.
I could honestly go on but if you can name any other B+ mega (or just reg poke) that can preform so consistently versus every playstyle due to it's heavy offensive presence and occasional utility tech.
Anyways, feel free to tell me I'm retarded and my points make no sense I'm like 8 stages on insanity past giving a shit

Blacephelon to B+ Disagree.
No offense, but since when does breaking stall (quite shakily at doing even that) make a pokemon rise two subranks? Didn't this thread just get told to stop this multiple rank rising/dropping bullshit? Whatever. Honestly for a mon we're selling as something that can break stall it's really not that good at it.
First off, haze pex is gonna wall that wack HP invested set for days and days and days on end, and although technically every stall isn't running spdef pex, stall should definitely be running some sort of phaser or hazer. I suppose you could remedy this with taunt but at that point you're either mono attacking or forgoing sub to basically make you useless vs anything but stall due to your low burst damage, bad bulk, weakness to rocks, dying to every scarfer and everything else that landed this thing in it's rightful place of B-.

Tldr you're either useless vs everything with stall or loose to any good stall which has spdef pex or another competent phaser. I'll add calcs because (seriously, no offense) it doesn't look like the person who made this nom realized that you do like 40 max to pex at +1 and it hazes all boosts/spdef drops. It also always breaks your sub at +1 so I don't get your point here.
I'd spoiler but I'm lazy

+1 8 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 105-124 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 84-102 (27.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Edit robopoke you realize stall is very hard to hazard stack vs or actually pressure one Pokémon specifically if your opponent is good? Like, you’re not pursuit trapping any of those Pokémon and stall is gonna carry 2 competent defogger and/or mega sabelye to prevent hazard stacking so they don’t loose to random shit like that set. Also if you’re gonna claim that I haven’t read or noticed your points, try not to do the same for why subcm blace is inconsistent versus stall and tauntcm is literally a counter team to stall and nothing else.

Gengar to B+: Agree. unlike other ghost types, gengar actually has the utility and coverage and speed to be effective in the current metagame. Not much to say here, scarf is cute I guess but I'd rank the balance breaker sets above scarf. Specs is also pretty neato. Everyone took all the good points so I might as well make sure nobody forgets about this nom.
Hippowdown rising when lmao
 
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Well considering my computer hung itself it's been a while since I've made a (legitimate) post on here, so I guess I'll attempt to add something to the current discussions.

Mega Alakazam to A-: Agree.

To my understanding, mega alakazam earned it's place in B+ due to it being great with the correct team support (lele) which is similar to other pokemon in B+ such as swampert and sableye. However, due to my understanding of it's initial ranking from a few months ago being shaky at best I'll try to not base my entire argument off of this assessment. For this most part, zam sticks out like a sore thumb in B+.

Mega Alakazam is far from a stale pokemon, with new innovations such as knock off or the (rare) thunder wave strengthening match-ups vs a playstyle your team may struggle with. For example, knock off is able to support not only alakazam but it's teammates by knocking off chansey, AV bulu, celesteela, AV magerna, and even scarfers that would be able to eat a hit and scare zam out. How does this relate to it being above every B+ mega? Well, no mega in B+ has the ability to be so versatile with it's matchups.
Alakazam is able to be a huge threat to HO if you play it correctly, as HO pretty much picks one if the opponent is unable to threaten alakazam every turn and deny teamates volturning into it.

Versus bulky offense, which tends to carry something like av bulu or celesteela (as pointed out above) which can in theory due well vs psyspam, but if you take into account other factors such as spike support and the (admittedly situational) tech of knock off or lures such as Z lele or specs psyshock lele, these pokemon will no doubt be pressured throughout the match. Also, you can trace abilities from passive shit like pex and chansey to ignore status/get back health throughout the match.

Versus balance, the same factors apply as above, but with arguably less offensive presence to keep alakazam at bay. Honestly there's not much to say other than with correct team support to lure/trap celesteela and other fat shit that can switch in without much stress.

Versus stall, knock off preforms amazingly despite four slot syndrome, and with eviolite gone chansey gets blown into the next dimension by focus blast and psyshock. While sableye is an annoyance, it's not like it's that hard to pressure or like d-gleam is that unreasonable if your luck sucks or you don't feel you need focus blast if you have something like t-tar in the back.
I could honestly go on but if you can name any other B+ mega (or just reg poke) that can preform so consistently versus every playstyle due to it's heavy offensive presence and occasional utility tech.
Anyways, feel free to tell me I'm retarded and my points make no sense I'm like 8 stages on insanity past giving a shit

Blacephelon to B+ Disagree.
No offense, but since when does breaking stall (quite shakily at doing even that) make a pokemon rise two subranks? Didn't this thread just get told to stop this multiple rank rising/dropping bullshit? Whatever. Honestly for a mon we're selling as something that can break stall it's really not that good at it.
First off, haze pex is gonna wall that wack HP invested set for days and days and days on end, and although technically every stall isn't running spdef pex, stall should definitely be running some sort of phaser or hazer. I suppose you could remedy this with taunt but at that point you're either mono attacking or forgoing sub to basically make you useless vs anything but stall due to your low burst damage, bad bulk, weakness to rocks, dying to every scarfer and everything else that landed this thing in it's rightful place of B-.

Tldr you're either useless vs everything with stall or loose to any good stall which has spdef pex or another competent phaser. I'll add calcs because (seriously, no offense) it doesn't look like the person who made this nom realized that you do like 40 max to pex at +1 and it hazes all boosts/spdef drops. It also always breaks your sub at +1 so I don't get your point here.
I'd spoiler but I'm lazy

+1 8 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 105-124 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 84-102 (27.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


Gengar to B+: Agree. unlike other ghost types, gengar actually has the utility and coverage and speed to be effective in the current metagame. Not much to say here, scarf is cute I guess but I'd rank the balance breaker sets above scarf. Specs is also pretty neato. Everyone took all the good points so I might as well make sure nobody forgets about this nom.
Hippowdown rising when lmao
I already mentinoed the defensive answers. Just Strg-F Toxapex and you see me mentioning it. Also SubCM Speedboost Blace is in fact good against all playstyles.
I specifically mentioned that you need a way around Pex, Gastrodon and TTar but you seem to either ignore those points or just did not read them... We even discussed already that 2 rises are too much and people seem to either disagree with a rise or be fine with just 1 rise. I admitted my fanboying. Do me a favour and read the complete posts or do not read at all. There is this saying in germany that halfknowledge is dangerous and I think in this case it just slows down everything.
 

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I don't think Mega Alakazam should be in the same tier as Hoopa. The only advantage Alakazam has over Hoopa is speed. Hoopa is a better breaker that can actually beat stall and one of the most versatile pokemon in the game. (To the point where it can't be countered and is actually one of the best switch-ins to Alakazam. )

So if Hoopa rises, so can Alakazam.
 

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I don't think Mega Alakazam should be in the same tier as Hoopa. The only advantage Alakazam has over Hoopa is speed. Hoopa is a better breaker that can actually beat stall and one of the most versatile pokemon in the game. (To the point where it can't be countered and is actually one of the best switch-ins to Alakazam. )

So if Hoopa rises, so can Alakazam.
I'm gonna keep this short and in addition to what I'll write below, I also recommend that you read the analysis for both mons that are linked in the OP of this thread.

They are both psychic types but are very different. Hoopa can run an item (choice specs/band or z move) and Mega Zam is stuck with its mega stone. The difference is speed is huge because Mega Zam outspeeds every non scarfer in the tier, while Hoopa is stuck being outsped by most of the tier. That by itself can determine how often they get to switch in, as Mega Zam can come in to revenge kill mons like Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Mega Medicham, while Hoopa can only risk coming in on slower mons like Heatran and Ferrothorn and occasionally against a special attacker or choice locked mon like Mega Zam and Tapu Lele locked into Psychic respectively. Despite already being fast and annoying to offense, Mega Zam can also trace Swift Swim/Speed boosting abilities, making it really hard to revenge kill unless you have a switch in. One's annoying to more offensive teams and the other is more annoying to fatter teams, and in the end, they're just a bit different to compare and decide rankings just from that.

Anyways, none of this really matters as you need an argument regarding the current metagame as to why Mega Zam should/shouldn't rise instead of comparing it to another mon in another rank that has a different role. I don't really care whether Mega Zam rises so I won't comment on it.

Hope this helps!
 

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It's been a while since I posted in this thread, so I wanted to post a couple noms for some mons that are really good atm and incorrectly ranked in B.

Slug: B--->A-

Gastrodon has quickly risen to prominence in the tier with its usage on various teams right now and just being a fantastic glue mon that can check a huge portion of the tier. It gels very naturally with Clef/Torn cores that have been taking the metagame by storm as of late. Previously, Gastrodon struggled with being quickly worn down between status, dpulse flinches, hazards, etc and it resulted it being an inconsistent answer for stuff that it was supposed to counter such as Heatran and Ash Greninja. However, the recent discovery of Wish Clefable has been a blessing for Gastrodon, keeping it healthy throughout the match and luring in many of the things that Gastrodon deals with, namely Heatran. Gastrodon's ability to take on many of the metagame's top threats with ease like Tapu Koko, Heatran, Greninja, Magearna, etc. has made it quickly rise as a potent member of the metagame's strongest teams, as seen in the most recent rounds of OST and the latter stages of SPL. Heatran usage is at an all time high, with bloom doom variants seeing little usage and dangerous offensive sets making traditional answers like Gliscor much less effective than they were before and this only increases the need for a solid answer like Gastrodon. B rank is simply too low a ranking for such a good blanket check to much the metagame that is so useful for contemporary balance teams. I'll concede to raising it to B+ rank if the ranking council decides, but this thing frankly should be in A-. I haven't seen this thing to rise yet and that's frankly perplexing to me with how good it is atm.


Reuni: B--->B+
I also want to argue for a reuni rise along with the slug, but I haven't seen more than a couple people use it lately. I'm not sure how many people are going to support my argument with its less spread out usage, but I'd definitely rate it at B+ rank with how good it is right now between its ability to function as a blanket check for a large amount of physical attackers, punch holes in teams with Z-move sets, and function as a late game wincon with Calm Mind sets. Obviously, Reuni is by no means a perfect Pokemon and that's obvious, but the rise of weaker mons on balance teams that offer setup bait for it such as non-Z move Torn-T and Gastrodon bodes well for its viability. There's no specific metagame trends that I can point to off the top of my head that made Reuni get so much better lately, but people have just started using it more and its increased usage has led people to realize how good it actually is. Reuniclus can be absolutely devastating in the right matchups and I seldom see matchups in which it doesn't put in work to some degree, so I can definitely see this blob moving up a rank or two.
 
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A --> A+
Clefable has shown to be one of the best options on balance as of recent metagame trends; It's bulk allows it to switch in to rising threats in Mega Medicham and Hawlucha and threaten them with Moonblast. Because of its bulk it's also a very reliable stealth rock setter. Wish Clefable sets have been also gaining usage, being able to support things like Heatran which have no recovery out of Leftovers. Clefable also possesses valuable utility in in forms of Heal Bell, knock off for removing stuff like Heatrans Leftovers, Toxapexs black sludge, Chanseys eviolite, and Thunder Wave letting it cripple and check many Pokémon through spreading paralysis. Having Magic Gaurd as an ability is a huge plus as it ignores status and hazards which is a good sign for longivity especially when acting as a win condition through Calm Mind. Although it might be one of the worst A+ ranked Pokémon, Clefables roles on balanced and even stall teams shows that it is capable of being ranked higher than stuff like Greninja and Kyurem Black.
 
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