Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

Nominating Kommo-o from UR to C+ (or C)



I'm bad at this game so I'll just credit Lopunny Kicks' team and show some high level replays first

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-787745961
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-787515397
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-786976156

I think it's very obviously time to rank Kommo-o for its merit on HO, specifically webs (I don't think it's nearly as good on veil squads). I think Kommo-o puts intense pressure on the opponent to scout its set; we're well past early SM where you could just send your fairy type or Lando brainlessly into this thing. It has access to a plethora of set up moves like Dragon Dance, Work Up, Belly Drum, Swords Dance, Bulk Up and Clangorous Soulblaze. Soulblaze is really quite scary and the threat of it (regardless of if it is on your moveset) can make your opponent misplay. The fact it goes through substitutes is situationally useful for killing these cancerous sub glare Zygardes and Serperiors. Kommo-o also has a gigantic movepool, I'm not going to list it out but seriously, It has everything. It can absolutely flatten all the frail fairies in the tier with Poison Jab (also nice for Tang who can't do anything to you), break through Pex with Thunder Punch Belly Drum and so on. It's extremely, extremely customizable (picks its checks) and I don't think we've properly experimented with all its possible sets and techs yet (clef lures could be fun). It's one of the few real mixed attackers in the tier.

Kommo-o defensively checks Ash-Greninja which is huge for HO, which typically struggles against it without Mega-Gyarados. It also can check Blacephalon from its typing + bulletproof. Speaking of bulletproof, Kommo-o makes Ferrothorn a huge liability if you're running sub Belly Drum. Naive/Jolly outspeeds Adamant Zygarde (Zygarde is Adamant 97% of the time). I think this mon can easily stand next to stuff like Marowak and Azumaril in C+, it's a real threat that brings useful offensive and defensive traits to HO.

Sets

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Dragon Dance

Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Thunder Punch / Poison Jab
- Drain Punch
 
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Buzzwole: C- to C at least

If zygarde is going to rise to S then there's no reason why one of the best (and most underrated) physical walls in the tier should rise too. Buzz checks pretty much every relevant Zygarde set, with the ones most threatening to it (Z-Outrage and Toxic sets) still having some counterplay with Roost + Lefties recovery. Access to Ice Punch sets it apart from Curse Scizor as a check, as well as STAB Drain Punch for additional recovery while still being able to break subs after a boost.

Other than that Buzz is just a solid phys wall in itself. Checks non-flyinium Lando, Chomp without fire blast, Bulu, Kartana, M-Gyarados, M-Scizor, Mamoswine, Bisharp, Weavile, Ttar, Excadrill - only M-Medi, Zard-X, M-Pinsir and Hawlucha threaten it and such, it's a good mon that does a lot with 4 moves. Its coverage is pretty good as well: Earthquake for le smogon urchin, Thunder Punch for bulky waters, Leech Life, Lunge, Poison Jab etc.

EDIT: Just wanted to show this sick replay of Buzz taking on TWO flying types and cleaning late game
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-792163329
 
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baddjordan

formerly Jcpdragonx
Agree with the Ash Gren to S nominations. Dark pulse flinches is what pushes it to S for mine, gives flashbacks to BW Excadrill flinching Gliscor and Skarmory. Often we're put in positions of giving it Spikes or Evolution, and have to switch as giving it evolution means we probably lose. The fact that it could also be Normal Gren often means we have risk dying to gunk.

Magenera to S: Still the best AVer in the tier, splash able on just about any team. Torn is everywhere, a solid switch in to all the Tapus, deals with Ash Gren and MZam. It's the hardest sweeper to deal with along with Zgyarde, due to its bulk and typing. Have seen a few CM Pain Splits running around catching stall/balance off guard, can run about 10 different sweeping sets. On the AV set, I think the best set is Fleur, Flash Cannon, Volt and Energy Ball to surprise common switch ins Pert and Gastro.
 
Kind of disagree with Magenera jumping 2 ranks up, both lando and heatran are S right now. Also people are wanting to rank up Volcarona and Char-y . Magenera also isn't a true counter to Zgyarde, Zgyarde gets off dragon dance and thousand arrows, Magenera is pretty much dead. Maybe it could rise to A+, but 2 rank ups?
 

Finchinator

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I don't see Magearna going up to S anytime soon; it does not have the amount of usage or consistent effectiveness to be on par with clear-cut top tier Pokemon such as Landorus-T and Heatran. Also, the point of it being "the best AVer in the tier" is not only irrelevant to viability as there is no exclusive premier for one S rank AVer, but also wrong in the eyes of many as AV Tangrowth is much more durable thanks to Regenerator, letting it actually check Greninja, Tapu Koko, etc. -- AV Magearna is only really good on bulky-offense/offense as it gets worn out too quickly on other types of teams.
 
Supporting Kommo-o to ranked. This is honestly a super scary mon for pretty much any offense team to face, as losing a 50/50 to it leaves you in a terrible situation. The ddance kommonium z set is the scariest, forcing you to go to your fairy to block clangorous soulblaze which gives it a free dd (from which it then ohkos 3/4 tapus with pjab). As for magearna, unboosted close combat has a small chance to 2hko, which means you can get enough chip on it to blow through later. If you don't go to your fairy, you could be in against a +1 to all stats bulky af mon with enough power to blow through a lot of offense teams which is really tough to revenge. Add screens to that and this thing becomes literally unkillable. SubBD is another solid set that allows it to damage bulkier teams more easily since it can damage magic guard clef (although the set posted in the nom can't ohko, you need pjab for that), and while it is arguably the weaker set it still works. Yes it has competition from the more versatile zygarde which is generally superior it does have qualities that set it apart, most obviously it's killer z move that puts a lot of pressure on the opponent to predict correctly to avoid being swept. It certainly has a niche in the tier worthy of C- or C at the very highest.

Agree with a buzzwole rise, its niche on stall is solid and I've also had success with it on balance (although I'm aware it isn't ranked for that, it's worth noting it isn't just a 1 dimensional stallmon like fellow C- moltres), and I think it's been underappreciated for too long.

Disagree with ash gren to S, it's way too 1 dimensional and lacking in utility to be compared to lando/tran/zyg.
 
Tyranitar A -> A-

This mon has suffered a lot in the last six months, in part because of Ferro/Clef cores that can eat its attacks, in part because of EQ M-Latios and Megazam, in part because of Steelium Heatran, in part because Zygarde's now one of the best mons in the game, in part because of Hippowdon. That's all in addition to long relevant threats like Ash Gren, Protean Gren (now with Low Kick or Z-Dig), Kartana, and Landorus-T continuing to make it hard for Tyranitar to fit into the meta. Its speed tier is straight up garbage - it doesn't beat offense, it doesn't break stall, it doesn't really trap anything outside of Lele or other choiced mons. Other less common sets like Scarftar and AV Tar are fine but they really don't do much to ease Tyranitar's tendency to get walled and U-Turn chipped by Landorus and without the Choice Band Tar can no longer break mons like Clefable who will stall it out of Stone Edge PP in a heartbeat if given the chance.

While it has a great dual STAB and is capable of denting lotws of mons with CB equipped, its lack of recovery, bad speed tier, and the increased irrelevance of some of the things its supposed to check (Blace, Latios without EQ, Zapdos, etc.) has made it difficult to justify picking Tyranitar for a team. It's lack of recovery and weakess to all hazards is bad, its matchup against ladder offense (usually consisting of Gren/Lando/Gyara/Zygarde) is bad outside of Blacephalon, and its prospects seem to just get worse with each new meta development. New niche arrivals like Suicune and Serperior further mess up its flow as they can set up and PP stall it or fish for a Stone Edge miss. Honestly, A- might even be too high for it at this point.

Celesteela A -> A+

Probably a bit of a controversial nom but I think this thing's performance on stall, balance, and bulky offense is worthy of a rank increase. As one of the tier's best answers to M-Latios/M-Zam (with a more SpDef spread), I have trouble finding ways to keep it on the bench, particularly because it checks Protean Gren, Lele, M-Diancie, Landorus-T, Kartana, M-Scizor, Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Bulu. It checks most Scarfers, mons that rely on HJK, EQ spam, or Steel stabs (e.g. Exca) and it loves leeching Heatran/Zapdos and stacking residual damage against them and its other checks. Leech stall is great for wasting Heatran or Ash Gren's PP as well. Magnezone is still a threat, but can be played around in some cases (not to mention you can Flamethrower/EQ it on the switch if yer good). Obviously Zygarde is a real threat against Steela if it comes in for free, but the same is true of other highly-viable walls like Ferro and Pex. Overall this mon has become way better than it used to be as a balance core member and I think it deserves a shout out because of that.

Mage A+ -> S

This just shouldn't happen, Mage is a great mon that can sweep certain teams but can't break Ferro/Pex cores very well and needs team support. AV sets are ok but they don't really check anything except for Lele/Zam (who again can get by them). Other changes to the meta like Zygarde, Hippow, and SD Bulu make Mage a worse pick than it used to be. Its matchup against Heatran and Landorus is particularly bad.

Ash Gren A+ -> S

Probably nah on this one too, Ash Gren is amazing and threatening and I use it all the time. But I don't see it being Heatran/Lando tier any more than Kartana, Lele, or Koko - the other 3 mons in A+ who you absolutely have to be prepared for or else you lose to them. Everything about Ash-Gren is great, though it falters against stall and needs help getting into play without taking 50% damage. Definitely a great pick, but not on Lando/Heatran's level right now, imo.
 
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Nuked

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I think Tangrowth might deserve another rise. It checks so many massive threats at once, which is just really nice for offensive teams that need the defensive backbone that it brings. I went over everything that makes it great in the last post I made nominating it for a rise, so I won't say too much, but I think it's only gotten better since and I think it's good enough to be A at this point.
 
Skarmory C+ -> lower

When's the last time you saw this? This thing only suffers from more competition since it last dropped, with Buzzwole and Avalugg as physical walls and Moltres in double Defog builds. The fact that Heatran and Zygarde are very prominent is terrible for it as well. Drop it.

Excadrill B -> B+

Mostly since HO is doing well right now, so it only makes sense for the face of HO to rise. Helping is the fact that it beats two very prominent rockers 1V1. Sure, it will probably drop back to B in a couple months, but whatever.
 
i didn't really read the thread when i did my last post and i noticed there are some other things i wanna comment on lol.

i think tangrowth is A material. it's always been a really consistent and reliable bulky pivot with great typing and bulk and AV and all that, but it especially flourishes in the current meta. there's been a significant increase in SD bulu, zygarde, serperior, and rain (last 2 cause of OLT), and AV tang handles these nicely. ok AV isn't the BEST zyg check, but it works fine with other support since z outrage sets are a bit less common now... this is sorta the case for most fat zyg checks though. at least with tang you can scout its set, and if you take a lot, you can just pivot out. also, bulky offense is probably the most consistent playstyle right now, unlike during early WCoP where people were spamming mega latias / reuniclus spike balances and those mega latios "BOs" with ferrothorn + clef. tangrowth fits nicely on bulky offenses since it isn't passive as shit and it checks a ton. it faces some competition from specially defensive SD bulu now, but i think BOTH of these have increased significantly in viability over the past couple months. the only real counterargument i can think of is how good tornadus-t is right now, but i don't think that invalidates every grass type in the meta or anything lol.

ash greninja to S is a huge stretch. it has definitely been one of the most consistently amazing mons throughout all of SM, but it is pretty linear. being linear in and of itself isn't necessarily a downside because a pokemon can be extremely dominant with basically one set, but that isn't the case for ash greninja. specs is the main set obviously, and there's plenty of ways to deal with it both offensively and defensively. the only really tough part about ash greninja is figuring out whether your opponent has ash or protean gren from preview, and this is honestly much easier to deduce than what set a zygarde could potentially be running. ash greninja is amazing, but i don't think it's on the level of heatran, zygarde, or even landorus-t. i also don't think it's dominant enough to warrant an S- rank... same with clefable btw both are perfectly fine in A+.

magearna to S is really absurd and clearly just uninformed, but i could see it going back to A+. shift gear sets are always tough because of how unpredictable / hard to prep for they are. furthermore, these sets are amazing on screens (and other) hyper offenses, and i think those styles have proven themselves to be less than just "cheese" over the past few months with significant tour appearances (stour and WCoP) and by being as good as always on ladder during the qualification phases for OLT. i also think the AV set is pretty good again with the increase in more traditional bulky offenses. it isn't as big on those as torn-t, bulu/tang, clef, koko, etc., but it's pretty great. the team Mob Barley used to qualify featured AV gear which has gotta be worth something given that team wasn't some ladder "cheese" type build. it's also really nice on rain as a catch-all specially bulky pokemon that appreciates weakened fire moves, as seen with those Za Meowdo type rain builds.

TL;DR: tangrowth -> A, ash greninja should stay in A+, magearna -> A+.
 
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Skarmory drop agree, even on stall it does no damage, gets beat out by almost every defogger, even tornadus runs heatwave now. Rotom-w doesn't care about it, anything with taunt shuts it down. Skarmory just does no damage at all in the meta, if you want a bulky steel type that can set up spikes or rocks just use ferrothorn or even heatran. Even if ferrothorn gets taunted it still can at least do damage with gyroball or powerwhip.

Whats also bad about it, is how it can't even kill the top meta fairies while other steel types can.
 
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Thunder Pwoell

I COULD BE BANNED!
before all of this, i'm sorry starry lol gonna have to disagree a bit.

Tangrowth definitely does not deserve a rise, I know most of yall tend to use the same shit and that's all find and dandy do you boo boo honey buns but come on. Tangrowth isnt that good, and its only worth is that you people vehemently refuse to suspect anything and adamantly refuse to teambuild correctly. To be completely honest, tangrowth is setup bait and is way too passive to rise. Just b/c 19/20 of you decide its best to use rain wont change that. I think OLT people are skewing this a bit b/c of how basic and identical their tryhard teams are. While tangrowth is in no way a bad mon, its not phenomenal, easily predicted, and thus easily exploited (b/c of how passive it is). Having EQ and leaf storm is amazing, however its a pretty bad pivot if predicted and you end up just tossing mons away. This is has been especially true to growths ive faced, but has also been true to the growths ive used and observed. It cant even wall ash gren (i pulled up with z ice and koed) or regular gren for that matter, and in general the strategy is to annoy ur opponent to death, which ill admit is a pretty decent strat but lets be clear here its already ranked high. Matter of fact a lot of grass mons can take its place/ do what it does but better. Its a good mon but lets not believe your own hype
 
Well im a Little bit confused why you have to be so rude and disrespectful. Nevertheless, which grass can do its Job better? If I look at the VR, there are Ferro, Kartana, Serperior, the Shroom, Venu and obvisouly Bulu. That bulu is a great check to special mons is nothing new, thats why its so high on the VR (well its one reason). And while it has more viable Sets and more power to actually hurt somerhing, it just cant switch into a mon its supposed to Check and then switch out again, if it had to eat something it wasnt prepared for and still be on a good amount of health. The Shrooms bulk, power and typ might be worse, and Venu is worse too (as a special pivot cuz residual dmg cuts really fast into its legs). Ferro is great, but more a hazard setter in my opinion, and at the end of a Game tang has still a good amount of health while ferro does not.
To sum it up (and sry, its a smartphone), besides bulu nobody can do what Tan does, and bulu is better and higher ranked and will probably always be, so AV Tan is just not overhyped.
 
before all of this, i'm sorry starry lol gonna have to disagree a bit.

Tangrowth definitely does not deserve a rise, I know most of yall tend to use the same shit and that's all find and dandy do you boo boo honey buns but come on. Tangrowth isnt that good, and its only worth is that you people vehemently refuse to suspect anything and adamantly refuse to teambuild correctly. To be completely honest, tangrowth is setup bait and is way too passive to rise. Just b/c 19/20 of you decide its best to use rain wont change that. I think OLT people are skewing this a bit b/c of how basic and identical their tryhard teams are. While tangrowth is in no way a bad mon, its not phenomenal, easily predicted, and thus easily exploited (b/c of how passive it is). Having EQ and leaf storm is amazing, however its a pretty bad pivot if predicted and you end up just tossing mons away. This is has been especially true to growths ive faced, but has also been true to the growths ive used and observed. It cant even wall ash gren (i pulled up with z ice and koed) or regular gren for that matter, and in general the strategy is to annoy ur opponent to death, which ill admit is a pretty decent strat but lets be clear here its already ranked high. Matter of fact a lot of grass mons can take its place/ do what it does but better. Its a good mon but lets not believe your own hype
i get where you are coming from saying tangrowth is an easily predicted mon. like most defensive pokemon, you can usually lure it in with a breaker that only it walls, such as when you have zygarde out vs. something and your opponent's only zygarde SI is tangrowth. however, what makes tangrowth a lot less passive than other defensive pokemon is regenerator. even if this happens, in most cases you can just switch again and gain some HP with tang. also, this really puts things into a vacuum: predictability is dependent on the player. i don't know about most people, but when i make VR posts, i generally try to make them under the lens of me playing against a player of equal or greater skill. if i'm playing someone way better than me, then yeah they'll probably get the reads right every time and tang will be useless, but this is a poor argument because it can be said about virtually every pokemon.

regarding tang being passive: for a defensive pokemon, it isn't that passive at all. the combination of regenerator, decent offensive stats, and a pretty wide offensive movepool means it doesn't just sit there like clefable, toxapex, or gastrodon. this is why it's super nice on bulky offense teams: it's a fatmon that can counter a LOT of things really reliably, but it does it without sapping as much momentum. regenerator means you can make double switches to strengthen your wall. it isn't really set up bait because, unlike clefable, it isn't compromised if something that sets up on it comes in. thinking in somewhat of a vacuum: if your clef is low (say you took a zen from a medi and you moonblasted) and something that can set up on it comes in, your clef is now really low, meaning it'll probably be pretty tough to get in on something and heal, making your clef a lot less useful. with tang, you can just switch out vs. that thing that it is set up bait for, making it a bit more useful. this isn't to compare tang and clef since they aren't really interchangeable; i'm just pointing out why tang isn't passive, hence why it is seeing more and more usage on bulky offensive teams.

this also isn't just about grass typing, though i do think tang is second to bulu as a "defensive grass" in the tier. neither of these wall protean greninja because those commonly run gunk shot and/or ice beam now. ice ash greninja is worth mentioning given it seeing a bit more usage than before recently, but it's still a fairly niche choice that isn't prevalent enough to consider that strongly (yet). this isn't to purely look at the VR; not too long ago amoonguss was pretty low on the VR and now it's sorta in the middle because people saw how nice the AV set could be (not as much nowadays). however, i think there's a reason why tangrowth with regenerator has always been so good, and there's a reason it has consistently been at its peak in bulky offense centric metagames. the meta is currently seeing a bit of a boom in bulky offense teams, tangrowth both fits nicely on these teams and acts as an answer to things these teams commonly run (zygarde, ash greninja, tapu koko, specially defensive sd tapu bulu, etc.), and the VR thread is largely centered around the metagame. as a result, it'd make sense for tangrowth to rise... it is a really good meta pick right now.
 

Thunder Pwoell

I COULD BE BANNED!
i get where you are coming from saying tangrowth is an easily predicted mon. like most defensive pokemon, you can usually lure it in with a breaker that only it walls, such as when you have zygarde out vs. something and your opponent's only zygarde SI is tangrowth. however, what makes tangrowth a lot less passive than other defensive pokemon is regenerator. even if this happens, in most cases you can just switch again and gain some HP with tang. also, this really puts things into a vacuum: predictability is dependent on the player. i don't know about most people, but when i make VR posts, i generally try to make them under the lens of me playing against a player of equal or greater skill. if i'm playing someone way better than me, then yeah they'll probably get the reads right every time and tang will be useless, but this is a poor argument because it can be said about virtually every pokemon.

regarding tang being passive: for a defensive pokemon, it isn't that passive at all. the combination of regenerator, decent offensive stats, and a pretty wide offensive movepool means it doesn't just sit there like clefable, toxapex, or gastrodon. this is why it's super nice on bulky offense teams: it's a fatmon that can counter a LOT of things really reliably, but it does it without sapping as much momentum. regenerator means you can make double switches to strengthen your wall. it isn't really set up bait because, unlike clefable, it isn't compromised if something that sets up on it comes in. thinking in somewhat of a vacuum: if your clef is low (say you took a zen from a medi and you moonblasted) and something that can set up on it comes in, your clef is now really low, meaning it'll probably be pretty tough to get in on something and heal, making your clef a lot less useful. with tang, you can just switch out vs. that thing that it is set up bait for, making it a bit more useful. this isn't to compare tang and clef since they aren't really interchangeable; i'm just pointing out why tang isn't passive, hence why it is seeing more and more usage on bulky offensive teams.

this also isn't just about grass typing, though i do think tang is second to bulu as a "defensive grass" in the tier. neither of these wall protean greninja because those commonly run gunk shot and/or ice beam now. ice ash greninja is worth mentioning given it seeing a bit more usage than before recently, but it's still a fairly niche choice that isn't prevalent enough to consider that strongly (yet). this isn't to purely look at the VR; not too long ago amoonguss was pretty low on the VR and now it's sorta in the middle because people saw how nice the AV set could be (not as much nowadays). however, i think there's a reason why tangrowth with regenerator has always been so good, and there's a reason it has consistently been at its peak in bulky offense centric metagames. the meta is currently seeing a bit of a boom in bulky offense teams, tangrowth both fits nicely on these teams and acts as an answer to things these teams commonly run (zygarde, ash greninja, tapu koko, specially defensive sd tapu bulu, etc.), and the VR thread is largely centered around the metagame. as a result, it'd make sense for tangrowth to rise... it is a really good meta pick right now.
I will admit that part of my view is b/c im a stellar predicter and make amazing reads. People have told me that many times and said that it clouds my judgement (one dude went as far as to say that it's why I use "shit mons" but he's ignorant). Very fair point, However against offense or heavy offense for that matter, tang is near useless b/c if it's not running SE hits, its offenses are pretty lack luster in this bulkiest meta game. I have been hit by a strong ass leaf storm and gotten surprised, but I try to stay away from defensive mons like tang as it's good on paper. Idk, that playstyle really isnt my thing as you know, I prefer heavy offense. Being defensively offensive; far more potent than annoying a mon to death. If that works right now then damn lol
 

Leo

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hey all, I’m fine with discussing Tang and other alternatives that fulfill the bulky grass type role but the vr isnt the place for randomly naming unviable mons like leafeon as alternatives without any arguments to back it up, please stay on topic everyone and happy posting
 

Lemon Ginger

formerly Hot Dog Pizza
Yeah despite their tone, I have to agree w/ Thunder on Tangrowth. People just want to meme with their Zyg and Kart that everyone uses, so unsurprisingly, you get a fat grass to check them. Beyond that, what can tang really do? It provides almost no pressure, and cant even run status it wants, like leech/toxic on AV sets. I'd even go so far as to say that albeit niche sun sweeper sets are better than AV tang. You just leave yourself way too open to breakers if your opponent reads a switch to Tang, and that's not too hard to do, especially with the aforementioned OP stuff like zyg, kart, Koko, which all force switches.

Tangrowth has always been a check to these things...that's why it's in A-. It's not like all of a sudden it has become better at checking these threats. (With less leles around recently, you could maybe argue amoongus does this better).

Also, I don't think a comparison between clef and tangrowth is valid at all. Clef isn't a dedicated physical wall. It can also do a lot more for the team. Look to something like alomamola
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

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Beyond that, what can tang really do? It provides almost no pressure, and cant even run status it wants, like leech/toxic on AV sets.
this isn't exactly true. tang can pressure a lot of mons commonly found on balance like clef, gastro, steela, etc by threatening to knock off their leftovers or outright ko them in the case of gastro. you can also run sludge bomb to poison torn on the switch if you already have a dedicated heatran switchin.
You just leave yourself way too open to breakers if your opponent reads a switch to Tang, and that's not too hard to do, especially with the aforementioned OP stuff like zyg, kart, Koko, which all force switches.
this is true for pretty much any fat mon. people can double to lele on the pex, or cb hoopa u on the chans, or kyub on the bulu. tang can handle breakers better because it has great mixed bulk with av, so it's hard to ohko. for example, kyub needs to burn the z move to ohko av tang.
Tangrowth has always been a check to these things...that's why it's in A-. It's not like all of a sudden it has become better at checking these threats.
no, but the things it checks have become better. everyone is calling for a zygarde rise to s, while simultaneously the dragonium z set has been seeing less usage.
Also, I don't think a comparison between clef and tangrowth is valid at all. Clef isn't a dedicated physical wall. It can also do a lot more for the team. Look to something like alomamola
alomomola also shouldn't be a dedicated physical wall. its role is generally to pass wishes and spread status with scald/toxic. using it as your zyg counter is a terrible idea because it loses to sub zygarde.

there honestly aren't a lot of things that are comparable to tang, because unlike other regenerators it's not very passive.

but i do think it should rise to a. tang is one of those mons that just puts in work every game, by consistently checking the threats it needs to check and spreading knock off.
 
I dont agree with Tang rise, mostly cause I still think ferrothorn is just better grass mon. Ferrothorn can also tank zygarde, and gyroball+leech seed it to death. Ferrothorn can also tank ash greninja way better then Tang, since Ferrothorn can't be hit by gunk shot, can tank ice beam and just kill greninja with powerwhip. Ferrothorn also can tank flying moves while Tang can't. There are so many more advantages Ferrothorn has over Tang, like setting up rocks or spikes. The only advantage I see using Tang over Ferrothorn is it can beat magnezone and a couple of grass mons, since Tang has poison jab, thats about it.
 
I dont agree with Tang rise, mostly cause I still think ferrothorn is just better grass mon. Ferrothorn can also tank zygarde, and gyroball+leech seed it to death. Ferrothorn can also tank ash greninja way better then Tang, since Ferrothorn can't be hit by gunk shot, can tank ice beam and just kill greninja with powerwhip. Ferrothorn also can tank flying moves while Tang can't. There are so many more advantages Ferrothorn has over Tang, like setting up rocks or spikes. The only advantage I see using Tang over Ferrothorn is it can beat magnezone and a couple of grass mons, since Tang has poison jab, thats about it.
However, Tangrowth has a much easier time pivoting into Zygarde and circumventing any damage done to it with Regenerator while Ferrothorn lacks any reliable recovery and easily gets chipped down by Zygarde. Also Ash Gren running Gunk Shot or Ice Beam over Spikes is very rare considering its nature is to force mons out as it enters.


I’m pretty cool with a Tangrowth rise. It has enough going for it with Zygarde shifting away from Dragonium sets and it’s an excellent check to one of OU’s rising stars Serperior. It’s an amazing anti-OLT meta mon and A is a nice spot for it but nothing higher.
 
im not sure what you mean, since tang has to switch re-gain heath, while Ferrothorn can just sit there with leech seed protect if it needs to. If Zygarde is running coil, then its even harder for Tang to fight Zygarde then Ferro.
 
im not sure what you mean, since tang has to switch re-gain heath, while Ferrothorn can just sit there with leech seed protect if it needs to. If Zygarde is running coil, then its even harder for Tang to fight Zygarde then Ferro.
As someone who's extensively used coil zyg, you are wrong. While ferro is annoying for zyg, it can easily get to +3 to 2hko it after lefties + leech seed, and if zyg was healthy to begin with caneven beat protect sets (which are bad anyway cause it needs the slots atm). Also ferro struggles with sub + coil if it is played well. Meanwhile tang is harder to KO for zyg due to its ground immunity and also has hp ice (or grass knot if hp fire) which does enough to stop zyg from boosting in front of it to KO. Even if you do, it just switches out so it can get the regen recovery to finish zyg off.

I don't really have an opinion about the nom, just correcting your incorrect statement.
 
@BlueLobster I was asking him a question, cause it seemed like he was talking about chipping away Ferro, it wasn't a statement, cause Zygarde can't dragon dance +3 while getting hit by gyroball every turn, so your statement is wrong. Though thanks for the answer. Leech seed is for coil not so much dragon dance.
 
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Leo

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Yeah Ferrothorn most definitely isn’t a Zygarde switchin and I really can’t imagine why you seem so convinced about it being better at handling it than Tangrowth, one of the few counters to most Zygarde sets bar wp zdrag (2018?) and i guess something im missing. Not only does Ferro take a lot from banded tarrows which is the most spammable move cb zyg has access to, it also is straight up set-up fodder for Sub+Coil variants. You seem to overestimate its ability to recover hp which is just inferior to Tangrowths regen in many different ways (recovers about 1/8+1/16th hp per turn depening on the foe unless its protect+can be pivoted around if your opponent has a grass type+can and will miss etc) and even when running Protect it can be overwhelmed by Ash Gren+spikes in the lategame whereas Tang can pivot in and out several times before actually getting worn down. I hate to compare the 2 when theyre not as similar as you imply but tangrowth definitely has a clear edge in those specific matchups you mentioned so I had to bring it up.
 
I dont agree with Tang rise, mostly cause I still think ferrothorn is just better grass mon. Ferrothorn can also tank zygarde, and gyroball+leech seed it to death. Ferrothorn can also tank ash greninja way better then Tang, since Ferrothorn can't be hit by gunk shot, can tank ice beam and just kill greninja with powerwhip. Ferrothorn also can tank flying moves while Tang can't. There are so many more advantages Ferrothorn has over Tang, like setting up rocks or spikes. The only advantage I see using Tang over Ferrothorn is it can beat magnezone and a couple of grass mons, since Tang has poison jab, thats about it.
Even if your reasoning about Ferrothorn better checking Zygarde than Tangrowth was correct, which it isn't. Ferrothorn being 'a better Grass mon', isn't good reasoning, they have different types and perform hugely different roles. Steel is a double-edged sword, adding a neutrality to Ground, weakness to Fighting and a 4x weakness to (Hidden Power) Fire.

I agree with Tangrowth rising, like Volcarona it fluctuates on meta trends, which are currently in Tangrowths favour and don't look to be changing any time soon.

Also, though I think an S- move for Zygarde is probably better for the moment (alongside Clefable, Ash-Greninja and possibly Tapu Koko) though S is the most representative rank for it as everything stands, if you need reasoning, Crtl+F Zygarde for the last 300 posts.

If anyone remembers me btw, I'm just lurking around a little bit while I'm on uni holidays.
 
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