Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
What's scary about Hawlucha, though, is the sheer number of things that possibly CAN counter it. Tapu Koko, Clefable, and Zapdos are the only Pokemon that hard stop it, otherwise you have to rely on something niche like bulky Fly-Z Lando with no prior damage or Devastating Drake Zygarde - both of which don't have a guaranteed win.
I absolutely agree with your post, but I'd just like to point out that Tapu Koko isn't actually a "hard-stop" to Hawlucha.
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 210-248 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Tapu Koko stops Hawlucha if it is at full HP, but considering Koko switches in and out a lot, it is hard to avoid chip damage. As you can see in the above calc, if Koko switches in on SR twice, it is already in range of +2 HJK and can't stop Hawlucha reliably. So yeah, it is a great check to Hawlucha but it certainly isn't a hard-stop. Which just shows how terrifying Hawlucha can be.
There are two nominations I would like to make.
This one is a popular one that I agree with.
from A to A+: Agree
I agree that Hawluncha is best late-game sweeper in the tier. Pablo And Juan made a good point about it being able to set up in the tier freely. Pokemon like Heatran and Chansey will fear a High Jump Kick. Tangrowth and Kartana will fear a boosted Acrobatics, and it freely being able to set up makes this thing such a threat. Honsetly, I do think it is a tier above Pokemon like Tyranitar and Mega Scizor. Hawluncha has a lot of potential, and it is being used more and more as time flies by in the Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. I would argue that it's only checks are priority users, strong physical walls and offensive pokemon that resist fighting types. Having only three checks is really good and being able to set up very safely and becoming very fast makes it the best sweeper in my opinion. While electric-seeds is the only set right now, there could be more out there. The electric-seed set will always remain the best set though. A+ suits it much more than A in my opinion.
Source: http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/hawlucha/
Here is my own:
from B+ to B Martin is right about Latios warranting a drop. Mega Latios is a much better pick than almost all of Latios's sets at this point and gets checked by strong attacking Pursuits hard ( same with Mega Alakzam ). This thing just feels really lacking compared to all of the better special users out there. Fairy types check it's strongest move, Draco Meteor and you know how common Fairy types are. As the meta goes continues, Latios is going to feel more of a useless choice. It requires too much team support as well I heard.
Hello everyone, I wanted to touch some of the nominations that have been made and briefly talk about some mons that I'd like to see more discussions about:
b → b+: Agree
Ever since this mon got Defog, it's been gradually getting better and this mon definitely deserves to rise to b+ rank. The Defog + Flyinium Z set puts an amazing pressure on team as it's really hard to switch into Z-Hurricane which can nuke a lot of mons such as Clefable and Knock Off which can punish mons like Celesteela that it can't nuke with Z-Hurricane, it also has the ability to defog on common rockers like defensive lando-t and ferrothorn with relative ease and provides mometum to it's teammates with U-Turn. The rise in usage of mons like bulu, kartana and amoonguss also makes t even more worth using.
c+ → b: Agree
I think this mon should go to B rather than B-. It's a fantastic glue to fit onto teams packing a tosic spikes absorber, a check to kartana and tapu bulu a koko check, a good switchin to ash-greninja (especially if AV), a status spreader (if you're not using AV) and can even act as a Heatran lure with Stomping Tantrum which is huge and gives you a lot more space on your team to focus on other threats. I don't think the arguments about it not being able to check Zygarde are truly applicable here since, while this is true, it's not really amoonguss' role to switch into Zygarde and Ground types unlike things like Tapu Bulu and you can always run something like defensive landorus-t or mew or a scarfer like greninja to take care of it and this is why I think it's superior to all the B- mons and at least as good as B rank mons.
b- → b: Agree
Mamo is a pretty scary mon for most teams to switch into with it's strong Ice and Ground stabs which hit many mons like Landorus-T, Zygarde, Magearna and Tapu Bulu super effectively and still hits mons like Clefable and Celesteela pretty hard (especially with the Z-Move) and also cripple them with Knock Off. This mon also has access to Stealth Rock, Thick Fat and a decent bulk which allows it to switch into Heatran once (assuming it doesn't miss Magma) and pressure teams even further. While this mon doesn't do very well vs. Offense due to it being a rather fast placed playstyle, it's still very threatening for balanced and defensive teams. This game from SPL shows that pretty well.
b → b-: Agree
This mon just isn't used much now due to HO being on a decline and it not really fitting on any other playstyle. It's niche is mainly on webs teams which aren't so common rn and even with webs, it's still outsped by things like Tapu Koko and M-Lopunny. This mon is also a complete set-up fodder for thigs like Hawlucha and SD Scizor which have been rising in usage. Overall, I'd say that this mon is no longer an anti-meta threat with the metagame not being kind to it atm.
b- → b: Agree
This mon has been rising in usage and I definitely think it should rise from a subrank as well. It's a really good check to mons like Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu and Clefable that can U-Turn out against Magnezone as well. Both Wish + Protect and SR + Healing Wish are pretty good sets that fit onto different types of teams; wishtect fitting onto balanced ones and sr + hw into more bulky offense builds and they both offer a great amount of support to the team. The drop in usage of Pursuit Tyranitar is also pretty nice for it. I've presonally never thought this mon should have dropped this low and that it was just underexplored.
---
: There's not much to say about it since several people like sedertz covered it pretty well. Basically yeah I agree with it rising to S-. This mon's pretty scary for many teams to switch into with it's insanely powerful Thunderbolt and its Volt Switch which grabs some momentum to its teammates. It's stats allow it to do well against every types of teams, from Offense to Balance to Stall and it can just Volt Switch out on most of its switchins. It's also a pretty good partner and switchin to Hawlucha which is one of the scariest sweeper atm. Both Specs and Shuca are pretty good sets. Shuca is a great lure for ground types like Lando and Zygarde.
: I'm quite split on this one. On one hand, this mon is one of the scariest sweeper at the moment, being able to abuse from terrains to boost it's speed drastically and sweep many teams. It's really easy for it to pickup weakened teams and it can setup on may common mons like Lando, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, and Tyranitar. But on the other hand, I think that the metagame has adapted for it with mons like Tapu Koko, Zapdos, Clefable and Mew being able to check it, sets like Toxic Lando-t and Protect Heatran being more common and the multiple priorities such as Mamo / Weavile's Ice Shard and Ash-Gren's Shuriken being able to kill it after some chips. As I said, I'm quite split on it but I would slightly lean towards it staying A, or at least for right now.
: People have been using this mon a bit more lately mons like Kartana, M-Medicham and Hawlucha rising in usage. It's a great check to plenty physical attackers in the tier as it can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp that also gets both stealth rock and defog which is nice for utility. It can check Ground types with Ice Beam and Heatran with Earth Power / Earthquake. This mon is really good at doing many things and fits on many types of teams but I'm not nominating it to rise, I'm just saying that it rose in usage and that I could definitely see it rising in the forseeable future.
: I'm not nominating it to drop but I wanted to talk a bit about this mon. I don't think Victini necessarily got worse in usm but I think that B- isn't its place atm. It isn't seen much anymore and while it's still good, it will often have issues to sweep teams and even to set-up. It's also not really hard to revenge kill as scarfers like scarf gren (which I've seen a lot more lately), scarf kartana and scarf lati can rk it and priorities like extreme speed zygarde and shuriken from ash-gren can pick it off after some chips. While some of its checks like Mantine dropped a bit, it's still seen quite a bit and more and there are also more pex that run payapa berry which helps it to check that mon. Overall, idk if that mon should drop and I would like to see it discussed a bit more.
---
Finally, there's one nomination that I'd like to make:
(regular): c → c+
LO Regular Alakazam is a pretty powerful wallbreaker that doesn't take a Mega slot. It's speed allows it to outspeed mons like SD Kartana and with Life Orb it hits harder than it's mega counterpart. It can be a real pain for both offense and more defensively inclined teams to deal with as even special walls like Tapu Bulu, Celesteela and Chansey take a decent chunk from it's attacks. It's relatively high special defense also allows it to switch into some special attackers like Heatran with Recover which will often be scared of mega. This game from SPL is a good example of how threatening this thing can be with the right support.
Finally, there's one nomination that I'd like to make:
(regular): ur → c- / c
LO Regular Alakazam is a pretty powerful wallbreaker that doesn't take a Mega slot. It's speed allows it to outspeed mons like SD Kartana and with Life Orb it hits harder than it's mega counterpart. It can be a real pain for both offense and more defensively inclined teams to deal with as even special walls like Tapu Bulu, Celesteela and Chansey take a decent chunk from it's attacks. It's relatively high special defense also allows it to switch into some special attackers like Heatran with Recover which will often be scared of mega. This game from SPL is a good example of how threatening this thing can be with the right support. With all that said I definitely think this mon should be ranked at least in C- rank but I think C is more appropriated as it's a lot better than all of the C- ranked mons.
Just so you are aware, Regular Alakazam is already in C+ in the Viability Ranking. Just wanted to bring this to your attention since you posted about it.
I just realized: Why aren't porygon-z and talonflame listed on the front page of the VR thread, but they still have OU analyses? Can anyone explain this?
I just realized: Why aren't porygon-z and talonflame listed on the front page of the VR thread, but they still have OU analyses? Can anyone explain this?
even though they aren't viable, they can still be used to some success. the analyses were already written, so it's kinda illogical to remove them just because the pokemon aren't that bad. the analyses themselves aren't spreading misinformation (i don't think), so having them up doesn't cause any harm.
even though they aren't viable, they can still be used to some success. the analyses were already written, so it's kinda illogical to remove them just because the pokemon aren't that bad. the analyses themselves aren't spreading misinformation (i don't think), so having them up doesn't cause any harm.
To add to this a little, they were C- for quite a long time, hence why they have analyses.
As for the current discussion points, I agree Hawlucha should be A+. It is extremely easy to use and is probably the best late game sweeper ATM. People have compared it to Volc and I honestly think it's better, it has far less checks (yes Volc can break it's checks, but not all of them at the same time) and needs less support as it is so much easier to get a terrain up for lucha than it is to get rid of rocks for Volc. Its current rank really doesn't reflect how threatening and easy to use it is, so it really should rise.
Agreeing with Mamo and Jirachi rises, both have seen increased usage due to favourable meta trends, and they're both good at what they do. I'm leaning towards a Bish drop as well, I struggle to validate using this outside of webs, which has gotten worse recently, so...
I also agree with Koko to S- (think I addressed this in a previous post, but idr so I'll say it here just to make sure).
Ur all overcomplicating it; they’ve still got analyses because colonel m forgot to delete the analyses when they got unranked.
Anyway to echo in on a few noms in my incoherent 3:30 AM voice:
Latios drop: I commented on this a page back so I won’t go into depth, but this mon should be B- at the absolute highest.
Jirachi: This is more just a matter of people finally realising how good Jirachi is rather than the meta expressly changing for it, and I agree with a rise just in those grounds; whether running WishTect or SR pivot it just generally brings a lotmof useful attributes to the table; Body Slam prevents it being total Tran/Lando bait which, while nothing particularly new, is super duper nice given how ubiquitous both of those Pokemon are and how much they hate being paralyzed (ESPECIALLY Tran and Scarf Land), and being able to fuck with Lucha that try to use Rachi for setup fodder between Body Slam’s para rate and Protect making Lucha crash is just super nice in general ’cuz forcing Roost in turn forces another para chance blah blah blah. Just a lot of teams appreciate this and its other tools rn.
Lucha’s broken lol this mon should be A+; it’s the single best late-game mon atm, benefitting from a fuckload of trends whether they be Lando/Tran/whatever else it sets up on and/or beats being on every fucking team or even just the fact that it cleans consistently and with basically no effort/brainpower vs most teams. The big 3 Tapus are probably easier to plug onto teams than they’ve ever been (granted they’ve always been super pluggable outside of brief spurts for lele/bulu) and gits already-limited counterplay to Elec/Grassy seed is kinda cucked by Psychic Seed+SEdge sets it’s not hard to see why it’s so effective. This is basically the face of cleaning, and as such its ranking should reflect that.
Sry if there are any spelling/grammar mistakes or confusing pieces of wording in there; it’s 3:30 AM
Ur all overcomplicating it; they’ve still got analyses because colonel m forgot to delete the analyses when they got unranked.
Anyway to echo in on a few noms in my incoherent 3:30 AM voice:
Latios drop: I commented on this a page back so I won’t go into depth, but this mon should be B- at the absolute highest.
Jirachi: This is more just a matter of people finally realising how good Jirachi is rather than the meta expressly changing for it, and I agree with a rise just in those grounds; whether running WishTect or SR pivot it just generally brings a lotmof useful attributes to the table; Body Slam prevents it being total Tran/Lando bait which, while nothing particularly new, is super duper nice given how ubiquitous both of those Pokemon are and how much they hate being paralyzed (ESPECIALLY Tran and Scarf Land), and being able to fuck with Lucha that try to use Rachi for setup fodder between Body Slam’s para rate and Protect making Lucha crash is just super nice in general ’cuz forcing Roost in turn forces another para chance blah blah blah. Just a lot of teams appreciate this and its other tools rn.
Lucha’s broken lol this mon should be A+; it’s the single best late-game mon atm, benefitting from a fuckload of trends whether they be Lando/Tran/whatever else it sets up on and/or beats being on every fucking team or even just the fact that it cleans consistently and with basically no effort/brainpower vs most teams. The big 3 Tapus are probably easier to plug onto teams than they’ve ever been (granted they’ve always been super pluggable outside of brief spurts for lele/bulu) and gits already-limited counterplay to Elec/Grassy seed is kinda cucked by Psychic Seed+SEdge sets it’s not hard to see why it’s so effective. This is basically the face of cleaning, and as such its ranking should reflect that.
Sry if there are any spelling/grammar mistakes or confusing pieces of wording in there; it’s 3:30 AM
I agree with all of this. Latios into B- is actually plausible. Sorry if that was too broad, but in my area it is really late. I feel like there are many Pokemon who have more potential than they are expressed ( Amoongus, Jirachi and Hawluncha ). Those three listed all should warrant a rise from their current places Amoongus from C- to B- or B , Jirachi from B- to B or B+ and Hawluncha from A to A+. I would say that Jirachi is a solid check to popular Pokemon like Tapu Lele and Magnera which help it out in the meta. The increasing usage of Hawluncha is also a good sign for this. It just has some utility that it warrants a rise. All of the three pokemon that I mentioned warrant a rise the most so far, but I am curious to see what more nominations you will all make.
Hawlucha: A-> A-: I think it should drop due to its main counter in zapdos gaining a big increase in use, making its life hard in quite a few matchups. It also has to contend w/ mons who survive +2 attacks from it like mew, koko, pex, clef, and quagsire (especially if the latter 2 are unaware). It also still hates priority from mons like gren and pinsir.
Hawlucha: A-> A+: I think it should drop due to its main counter in zapdos gaining a big increase in use, making its life hard in quite a few matchups. It also has to contend w/ mons who survive +2 attacks from it like mew, koko, pex, clef, and quagsire (especially if the latter 2 are unaware). It also still hates priority from mons like gren and pinsir.
Echoing Hawlucha to A+. Since most of what needs to be said has been said, I'd just like to add that "only gets one chance to sweep" is a bit of a generalization. Against offensive teams, sure, but against bulkier teams where it doesn't need the Unburden boost, it can put in work the whole game. Helping is that most of its best "counters" (like bulky Zapdos and Unaware Clefable) are most often seen on these kinds of teams.
Also, Araquanid C+ > C. It's total Hawlucha bait on a playstyle that can't afford to give any free turns to Hawlucha. I think Shuckle is the better web setter since it at least has Encore to deter Hawlucha from setting up.
Araquanid C+ > C. It's total Hawlucha bait on a playstyle that can't afford to give any free turns to Hawlucha. I think Shuckle is the better web setter since it at least has Encore to deter Hawlucha from setting up.
I disagree because Araquanid is more of a Sticky Webs lead than a Banded Wallbreaker in the current meta. Throwing the Lucha right at the beggining just to kill a spider not only pointless, but can also work for the opponent if they consider getting rid of the bird wannabe ASAP as their bigger priority.
Also, Araquanid C+ > C. It's total Hawlucha bait on a playstyle that can't afford to give any free turns to Hawlucha. I think Shuckle is the better web setter since it at least has Encore to deter Hawlucha from setting up.
While it is somewhat weak to Haluwcha, remember that Hawlucha needs about two-three turns of setup with Tapu first, then switch out, then set up Swords Dance, which can play to Araquanid's hand, that and Hawlucha is a late game cleaner not an early game sweeper
Echoing Hawlucha to A+. Since most of what needs to be said has been said, I'd just like to add that "only gets one chance to sweep" is a bit of a generalization. Against offensive teams, sure, but against bulkier teams where it doesn't need the Unburden boost, it can put in work the whole game. Helping is that most of its best "counters" (like bulky Zapdos and Unaware Clefable) are most often seen on these kinds of teams.
Also, Araquanid C+ > C. It's total Hawlucha bait on a playstyle that can't afford to give any free turns to Hawlucha. I think Shuckle is the better web setter since it at least has Encore to deter Hawlucha from setting up.
252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 174-206 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On a pokemon that is meant to die when it gets webs up, and it's only job is to get webs up how is it set up bait towards hawlucha when hawlucha is a late game sweeper opposed to a lead? Even then it still gets THKOd if it's the stash set and it can THKO Lucha. It does around aswell as any other pokemon against lucha and considering that most web teams have Mega Pinsir on them hawlucha isn't that big of an issue. I made a big post a few pages back talking about why shuckle isn't that good and why arquanind is better than it in almost every situation, and even then, a pokemon should not drop a rank just because some pokemon that is good is able to set up on it which is not even the case. Arquanid should stay in C+
Hawlucha: A-> A-: I think it should drop due to its main counter in zapdos gaining a big increase in use, making its life hard in quite a few matchups. It also has to contend w/ mons who survive +2 attacks from it like mew, koko, pex, clef, and quagsire (especially if the latter 2 are unaware). It also still hates priority from mons like gren and pinsir.
Erm, you are just listing the checks to it and that is all. That is not enough to prove why it needs a drop at all. You should list if it has increased in usage or not, or how useful it is compared to other mons in the meta that are usually prevalent and strong. The moderators can do a better job than me at explaining why but I just want to point that out.
I fully disagree with a Hawlucha drop, if anything it should rise. Despite it having those checks, it is still a deadly late-game sweeper that can check a portion of the cast. With it not only increasing in usage and being a check to mons like Kartana and Landorous-T, I think a rise is justified. Plus, it is the best late-game sweeper out of all of the Pokemon in OU and A+ feels like an area where the top of the top of certain qualities belong, so Hawlucha for A+. Hawluncha just feels too strong for the A tier.
Hawlucha: A-> A-: I think it should drop due to its main counter in zapdos gaining a big increase in use, making its life hard in quite a few matchups. It also has to contend w/ mons who survive +2 attacks from it like mew, koko, pex, clef, and quagsire (especially if the latter 2 are unaware). It also still hates priority from mons like gren and pinsir.
I already nommed Hawlucha for a raise and that does seem to be popular opinion right now. The reason I disagree is that the mons you have listed are mostly defensive monsters or resists. The other factor is that Koko can help extremely well with these matchups, particularly with Zapdos, Pex, Greninja and Pinsir. In terms of Clefable, Quagsire and Mew these checks are really not all that common compared to the number of mons that Hawlucha beats, and after being worn down by hazards and taking a hit from Koko (or another wallbreaker) they are usually in range of +2.
I agree with the Celesteela drop A -> A-
(actually I thought I was the first to nom this, luckily I went back and checked lol.). A lot has changed that has let this mon fall out of favour. So many of its checks are running rampant right now, Magnezone, Zapdos, Heatran, Volcarona, Koko, Electrium Z Magearna/Lele, Zygarde, Fightinium Z Hoopa/Kartana, Kyruem B (Fusion Bolt/Icium Z), even Thundurs-T it seems, to list a few. It's outclassed by Ferrothorn who is also is a much better spot with it's typing and access to Spikes/Rocks and Knock Off.
I started writing about Celesteela while agreeing with the Jirachi rise B- -> B
. I actually hadn't realised this was so low tbh, I think it's got access to a plethora of useful tech with, WishPass, Healing Wish, Rocks, U-Turn and Serene Grace Iron Head STAB. Great check to Lele, which is everywhere (rightly so, a great mon), that isn't all that passive. I think it's flexibility is sort of over looked, the Scarf set is actually great with U-Turn chip throughout the game, fast Healing Wish and raging people with Iron Head, particularly if you can Paralyse them with something like Rotom-Wash (actually Jirachi gets Thunder Wave, but it seems kind of hard to fit). I also had success with a Specs set that was on this HO team by Weirdo Faye while back. Specs + Icy Wind/Psychic/HP [Ground]/Healing Wish, has some great coverage, you could swap something out for Flash Cannon to hit Lele, HP hits Heatran which it absolutely lures and Icy Wind ofc wrecks Landorus and can be pretty useful with the speed lowering affect.
I would like to nominate Mamoswine to rise to B from B-
The mon is slowly racing it's Anti-Meta status it had back in Gen IV and V when dragons ruled most of OU. With Mamo being a solid check to common and rising OU threats such as Landorus-T Heatran, Koko, Zapdos, Zygarde and more
I been having lots of success with the Choice Band set.
Jolly/Adamant
Thick Fat
252 ATK 252 SPD 4HP
Ice Shard
Icicle Crash
Earthquake
Superpower
The Choice Band it to make sure it can OHKO defensive Landorus-T with Ice Shard even it it gets hit with Intimidate, and to ensure it can also OHKO physically defensive Toxapex with EQ . It can possibly revenge kill boosted Zygarde and Hawlucha if its taken a small amount of previous damage.
Superpower is basically there to hit Ferrothorn or even Kartana on the switch. Knock off is another possible option for the 4th slot so it isnt complete bait for its other checks if you prefer
There are also lots of other sets you can run to fill other roles and niches . But this set makes a great late-game wallbreaker and revenge-killer in the current meta
It still has the flaw of not really being splashable due to having a lot of common weakness and relatively low special bulk. So I think B is a comfortable place for it
I would like to nominate Mamoswine to rise to B from B-
The mon is slowly racing it's Anti-Meta status it had back in Gen IV and V when dragons ruled most of OU. With Mamo being a solid check to common and rising OU mons such as Landoirus-T Heatran, Koko, Zapdos, Zygarde and more
I been having lots of success with the Choice Band set.
Jolly/Adamant Thick Fat 252 ATK 252 SPD 4HP
Ice Shard
Icicle Crash
Earthquake
Superpower
The Choice Band it to make sure it can OHKO defensive Landorus-T with Ice Shard even it it gets hit with Intimidate, and to ensure it can also OHKO physically defensive Toxapex with EQ . It can possibly revenge kill boosted Zygarde and Hawlucha if its taken a small amount of previous damage.
Superpower is basically there to hit Ferrothorn or even Kartana on the switch. Knock off is another possible option for the 4th slot so it isnt complete bait for its other checks if you prefer
There are also lots of other sets you can run to fill other roles and niches . But this set makes a great late-game wallbreaker and 7revenge-killer in the current meta
It still has the flaw of not really being splashable due to having a lot of common weakness and relatively low special bulk. So I think B is a comfortable place for it
I'm a big fan of Mamoswine. I think anything that checks not one not two but three (Lando, Pex and Heatran) S ranked threats and Tapu Koko (who should have been S a while ago) is worth a nod. I think B is an appropriate rank but no higher, because Rotom-W has seen increasing usage and really doesn't mind anything Mamo can do outside of niche freeze-dry shenanigans. In terms of meta developments Rotom-W also has defog now which makes it even harder to accomplish anything with Mamo while Rotom is alive. Celesteela useage is also down which is a plus. Mamo has always been the quintessential anti-meta mon since its introduction, Ice/Ground is just so potent.
Gliscor: A- ---> B+ or lower
Why is this so high? Sure, it puts in work vs balance, but meta trends have not been kind to it. Bulu is everywhere, it's set-up fodder for Kartana and Hawlucha, it competes viciously with Landorus, and cracks to rising threats like Ash-Greninja, Torn-T and Lele. It's not awful, but certainly not A- material, especially in a meta where offense is rising.
Gliscor: A- ---> B+ or lower
Why is this so high? Sure, it puts in work vs balance, but meta trends have not been kind to it. Bulu is everywhere, it's set-up fodder for Kartana and Hawlucha, it competes viciously with Landorus, and cracks to rising threats like Ash-Greninja, Torn-T and Lele. It's not awful, but certainly not A- material, especially in a meta where offense is rising.
Gliscor definitely deserves its ranking. It's a solid fit for bulky and stalls teams that need a Defog user. Defog gives Gliscor a nice niche and while Landorus-T certainly has a use on many teams the immunity to Spikes, Toxic, and access to Roost are hard to pass up on. There have been quite a few teams having Gliscor throughout the last few weeks in SPL and have pulled their fair share of weight.
Either way I disagree with the nomination. Gliscor is pretty solid and is a big contributor to solid defensive backbones at the moment.
Latios: B+--> B-
I personally think that Latios is not very fit for the meta anymore w/ a lot of its counters like Ferrothorn, Magearna, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Tyranitar and Tapu Fini gaining surges of usage and the pokemon it counters starting to decline in usage a bit like Garchomp and MegaZard X. It can't work w/o a ton of team support.
Mega Gallade: C+--> C
This thing doesn't have any reason to be used whatsoever w/ better fighting types like Loppuny, Keldeo, and Mega Medicham. Its weak w/o SD boosts and even then, a ton of common mons still beat it.
Thundy is a damn good Pokemon with a useful ability, a solid speed tier, a couple of useful sets, reasonable bulk, and defensive typing. It has the power to break almost every wall in the tier (even Chansey) when using Nasty Plot, allowing it to function similarly to Hoopa-U. Unlike Hoopa, though, it doesn't fear U-Turn from Landorus-T, Tornadus, Tapu Koko or others and its ability is highly useful for stopping Volt Switches from Magearna and Magnezone. More importantly, though, it outspeeds a wealth of offensive threats that other wallbreakers have problems with. Medicham, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, offensive Landorus-T, and Excadrill can't force Thundurus-T out after it gets a kill, and if they've been worn down by entry hazards they're all 1-2HKO's. I'll go into each of these below and comment on how they're important to the current state of the metagame.
1. Nasty Plot: with balance cores still popular and the occasional stall team lurking on the ladder Thundurus-T really enjoys its ability to force switches and send its base 145 SpA to scary levels. After a boost it can blast through lots of would be checks to a Double Dance or Choice Scarf set who might rely on type resistance, sponging, or recovery to keep Thundurus-T at bay:
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 404-476 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 348-409 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 333-392 (82.4 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 356-422 (117.1 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (note that +0 can't OHKO)
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 366-431 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 510-602 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Additionally, it has good matchups against Heatran and Ferrothorn even before a boost, letting it bluff another set and still nuke either of them when they switch in on Thunderbolt. Obviously, after SR is set there's a better change of snagging an OHKO on both:
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 318-376 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Ferrothorn: 304-358 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I will say that Magearna and Tapu Bulu still wall Thundy pretty well, but with All-Out Pummeling or HP Ice taking half their HP, it can open doors for
Ash-Greninja, Lele, Koko or other strong special sweepers to do their job.
2. Typing: Like Zapdos, Thundy boasts great typing to keep Hawlucha or Pinsir from running you over, despite being significantly less bulky (it hard counters neither, but can act as a soft check). It can also check Kartana in a pinch, as most of its common attacks won't 2HKO Thundurus from neutral HP. It can also make life harder for Zapdos and Specs Koko by absorbing a wayward Electric type attack with its unique-to-OU ability, Volt Absorb. Apart from these minor benefits, Thundurus-T also boasts the ability to swap in on Earthquake and U-Turn without getting too worn down (though it does hate Stealth Rock). Not a defensive mon by any means, but better than things like Hoopa-U or Kyurem-B that can't really switch in on anything without taking a huge amount of damage.
3. Speed Tier: Base 101 speed puts Thundurus right where it needs to be to be useful. Outspeeding all of the "lower" metagame can be huge late game. With 1-2HKO's on Medicham, Specs Lele, Zygarde, and Volcarona, Thundy can wear them down to the HP where priority or another strong attacker like Hawlucha, M-Pinsir, Ash-Gren, or Tapu Koko can clean them up - or just nuke them itself. Compared to Hoopa-U or Kyurem-B, who are slower and have to worry about speed ties or getting outright beat by some or all of these pokemon, Thundurus-T can guarantee some at times necessary chip damage or a KO.
4. The presence of (Specs) Tapu Koko: this might sound odd, but the very presence of Tapu Koko makes life easier in a lot of ways for Thundurus-T. People build teams to check Tapu Koko, but variations on that theme can send them for a loop. Koko can be played around with a couple walls and some type resistences: send in Ferrothorn/Landorus-T when you think it's going to T-bolt, dodge HP Fire or Ice with Heatran, etc. However, since Thundurus-T can break through these checks it's both a great partner to Tapu Koko and a great answer to teams that only prepare for it.
All of that's not to say that Thundurus-T is amazing or even comparable in viability to Hoopa-U, Kyurem-B, or other strong wallbreakers in the tier. It boasts SR weakness, reliance on a boosting move, lower attacking stats, a shallower movepool/setpool, and generally uninspiring bulk. But in it's niche I'd say it's pretty useful and has deserved a rise to B- for quite some time, not to mention recent meta shifts that have been favorable to it.
Thundy is a damn good Pokemon with a useful ability, a solid speed tier, a couple of useful sets, reasonable bulk, and defensive typing. It has the power to break almost every wall in the tier (even Chansey) when using Nasty Plot, allowing it to function similarly to Hoopa-U. Unlike Hoopa, though, it doesn't fear U-Turn from Landorus-T, Tornadus, Tapu Koko or others and its ability is highly useful for stopping Volt Switches from Magearna and Magnezone. More importantly, though, it outspeeds a wealth of offensive threats that other wallbreakers have problems with. Medicham, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, offensive Landorus-T, and Excadrill can't force Thundurus-T out after it gets a kill, and if they've been worn down by entry hazards they're all 1-2HKO's. I'll go into each of these below and comment on how they're important to the current state of the metagame.
1. Nasty Plot: with balance cores still popular and the occasional stall team lurking on the ladder Thundurus-T really enjoys its ability to force switches and send its base 145 SpA to scary levels. After a boost it can blast through lots of would be checks to a Double Dance or Choice Scarf set who might rely on type resistance, sponging, or recovery to keep Thundurus-T at bay:
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 404-476 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 348-409 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 333-392 (82.4 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 356-422 (117.1 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (note that +0 can't OHKO)
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 366-431 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 510-602 (72.5 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Additionally, it has good matchups against Heatran and Ferrothorn even before a boost, letting it bluff another set and still nuke either of them when they switch in on Thunderbolt. Obviously, after SR is set there's a better change of snagging an OHKO on both:
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 318-376 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Ferrothorn: 304-358 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I will say that Magearna and Tapu Bulu still wall Thundy pretty well, but with All-Out Pummeling or HP Ice taking half their HP, it can open doors for
Ash-Greninja, Lele, Koko or other strong special sweepers to do their job.
2. Typing: Like Zapdos, Thundy boasts great typing to keep Hawlucha or Pinsir from running you over, despite being significantly less bulky (it hard counters neither, but can act as a soft check). It can also check Kartana in a pinch, as most of its common attacks won't 2HKO Thundurus from neutral HP. It can also make life harder for Zapdos and Specs Koko by absorbing a wayward Electric type attack with its unique-to-OU ability, Volt Absorb. Apart from these minor benefits, Thundurus-T also boasts the ability to swap in on Earthquake and U-Turn without getting too worn down (though it does hate Stealth Rock). Not a defensive mon by any means, but better than things like Hoopa-U or Kyurem-B that can't really switch in on anything without taking a huge amount of damage.
3. Speed Tier: Base 101 speed puts Thundurus right where it needs to be to be useful. Outspeeding all of the "lower" metagame can be huge late game. With 1-2HKO's on Medicham, Specs Lele, Zygarde, and Volcarona, Thundy can wear them down to the HP where priority or another strong attacker like Hawlucha, M-Pinsir, Ash-Gren, or Tapu Koko can clean them up - or just nuke them itself. Compared to Hoopa-U or Kyurem-B, who are slower and have to worry about speed ties or getting outright beat by some or all of these pokemon, Thundurus-T can guarantee some at times necessary chip damage or a KO.
4. The presence of (Specs) Tapu Koko: this might sound odd, but the very presence of Tapu Koko makes life easier in a lot of ways for Thundurus-T. People build teams to check Tapu Koko, but variations on that theme can send them for a loop. Koko can be played around with a couple walls and some type resistences: send in Ferrothorn/Landorus-T when you think it's going to T-bolt, dodge HP Fire or Ice with Heatran, etc. However, since Thundurus-T can break through these checks it's both a great partner to Tapu Koko and a great answer to teams that only prepare for it.
All of that's not to say that Thundurus-T is amazing or even comparable in viability to Hoopa-U, Kyurem-B, or other strong wallbreakers in the tier. It boasts SR weakness, reliance on a boosting move, lower attacking stats, a shallower movepool/setpool, and generally uninspiring bulk. But in it's niche I'd say it's pretty useful and has deserved a rise to B- for quite some time, not to mention recent meta shifts that have been favorable to it.
I agree with a lot of this to be honest, but just to point out that it is currently C Rank on the VR, not C+. The fact that it isn't seeing a *huge* surge in usage and that not too much has changed in it's favour (outside of being very useful against Hawlucha), its probably not going to rise 2 ranks. So yeah I agree with everything on the basis of Thundurus TherianC -> C+
View attachment 101596 Mega Gallade: C+--> C
This thing doesn't have any reason to be used whatsoever w/ better fighting types like Loppuny, Keldeo, and Mega Medicham. Its weak w/o SD boosts and even then, a ton of common mons still beat it.
I can kinda see why you wouldn't rank them with stuff like M-medi, M-maw and M-pinsir in A-, but I also think they're definitely better than most other things in B+ like M-zam, Blace (lol), Latios, Venusaur, ... Seeing how A- also has Chansey, Gliscor, regular Gren and Magnezone I can actually see the faces of Rain fit in there quite nicely.
The playstyle has been consistently good ever since M-pert got released and never really slowed down. It's performed well in a couple of matches in SPL and even though everyone knows what they do by now, you still can't afford to build a team that isn't prepared for them because you will absolutely lose more often than you'd like.
As for meta trends:
This thing getting Defog is pretty frickin nice. I already ran Rain with Flynium-Z Torn in SuMo, but you're pretty much obligated to slap Defog on Pelipper in that case, which reduces its durability over the course of a match, or put it on Koko which sucks even harder. Well, not any more! This bird has been praised enough over the last couple of pages, but I'd just like to mention that it's yet another option you have now when building rain besides A-Gren (specs or Waterium), KokoLucha, Kingdra, ...
I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I could see why you might not want to raise them, but I feel like B+ is underselling one of the playstyles that definitely is one of the more important ones in OU. (For reference: M-sab is also B+, and Stall imo is way less potent than Rain)
I could post some SPL games, but I think everybody pretty much knows how Rain works by now.
