Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[TheGiantSlowbro]

Gyarados B--->B+
I know this might be odd, and that a lot of people feel that Gyarados and Mega Gyarados should be the same rank, but I feel after extensive use, that regular Gyarados should raise to B+
The set that I think warrants the rise is the Moxie Flyium set. This set at +1 outspeeds every Pokemon in the entire tier bar scarfers. I feel like with the increase in usage of Pokemon like Heatran and Tapu Bulu have really helped it a lot, and that Water/Flying is a really good typing right now. Flying is an amazing stab type to have right now and Flyium helps Gyarados get to +2 relatively easy due to very few things being able to switch in at +1. It also, unlike Mega Gyaraods, doesn't just flat out die to some of the most common Scarfers, being Kartana and Greninja, so it gets really hard for most teams to deal with after a boost. Some examples of Pokemon it OHKO's at +1 with Flyium Z are Kartana, Toxapex(after rocks), Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, Offensive Zygarde(after rocks), Mega Pinsir and a bunch more Pokemon. Setting up due to it's bulk and typing isn't too hard and you can often set up 1 DD or 2 fairly easily. I do think there are some things that are hurting it right now, like the increases usage of Zapdos, but I don't think this is enough to keep it from rising. Moxie allows it to be more of a threat then Mega Gyarados IMO, even after just one KO.

 

[Altervisi]

Kyurem-B A -> A-
I'm going to nom Kyurem for a drop, it seems a bit overrated in A alongside Mega-Scizor, Tyranitar and Celesteela. Kyurem has competition from the relatively new OU addition Mamoswine, who in my opinion does Kyurems job better, not requiring nearly as much prediction, while lagging behind in Attack Mamoswine actually has the STAB moves to match its stats and it gets Ice Shard, which gives it a Speed control method Kyurem cannot match, STAB Earthquake is better than the Dragon typing that is more a hinderance then anything. Ice being more common means far fewer people are running 2 or 3 4x weak to Ice mons like they were earlier in the meta. Pretty much everything that just rose beats Kyurem and it still struggles with common staples like Kartana, Mega Medicham, Hawlucha, SG Magearna and Tyranitar.
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Mew B -> B+ eh...
Psychic sort of flutters between whether it is good defensively. There are currently only 3 Dark-types above B rank (not counting Protean Gren) and 0 Ghost-types, only Lele actually really carrys Shadow Ball in A. Mew does suffer defensively from a crippling Spikes weakness, Ash-Greninja and weakness to U-Turn. It obviously has a huge movepool, but Defog isn't that impressive anymore. As for Double Dance its hella decent once you set up, but this thing is frail as fuck dude and it really can't run the coverage it wants. So yeah, I was going to agree but as I was writing I realised I was undecided.

Ditto C+ -> B- Strongly Disagree
The problem with Ditto is it has literally one strategy and it is very easy to play around until Ditto is removed. Plus when it does transform you know all its moves, EV's, ability and you know it will be locked. If you boost up to +4 Volcarona and get 6-0'd by Ditto then that is your own fault and nothing to do with Ditto being really good. Same way if you use Defog on the Bisharp switch in and get Sucker Punched to death, you should easily be able to avoid that.

Mega Heracross B- -> B Somewhat Agree
I have seen pretty good success with Heracross the problem is while it has very limited switchins, it finds itself difficult to come in and very easy to revenge kill, as it has really shit set of weaknesses in this meta. However, against fat teams this thing can put in hella work, having a decent catch-all to fat teams and accepting it will not be good against offense isnt that bad. Also hitting multiple times to break Sash's, Subsitute and Disguise is actually neat. It really suffers being slower than Heatran. At the end of the day it still does sport a nice set of resistances and bulkier teams are hot right now.

Kommo-o UR -> C Disagree
It is not better than Azelf or Avalugg because they fulfill a small niche that make them viable on a specific playstyle, Kommo-o is just a sweeper that has access to a number of sets, all of which are done better by something else, Specs, Dragon Dance, Belly Drum, Sub Salac, Z +1 All Stats. Also a speed boosted Kommo-o is still easy to revenge kill because it's Speed sucks and it is weak to common types. Sub + Belly Drum is a meme set, which can catch people off guard but at the end of the day you need 2 set up turns and you sacrifice 75% of your health, which means it goes down to Water Shuriken once sub is broken. You also can't switch into any attack or status move, and hazards have to be cleared. The set you posted is also hopelessly walled by the most common Pokemon in the tier, not even a 2HKO at +6.

Hippowdon C+ -> B- Agree
Everything has been said, I'd like to see this at least voted on next slate.

 

[Srn]

Kyurem-B A -> A-
I'm going to nom Kyurem for a drop, it seems a bit overrated in A alongside Mega-Scizor, Tyranitar and Celesteela. Kyurem has competition from the relatively new OU addition Mamoswine, who in my opinion does Kyurems job better, not requiring nearly as much prediction, while lagging behind in Attack Mamoswine actually has the STAB moves to match its stats and it gets Ice Shard, which gives it a Speed control method Kyurem cannot match, STAB Earthquake is better than the Dragon typing that is more a hinderance then anything. Ice being more common means far fewer people are running 2 or 3 4x weak to Ice mons like they were earlier in the meta. Pretty much everything that just rose beats Kyurem and it still struggles with common staples like Kartana, Mega Medicham, Hawlucha, SG Magearna and Tyranitar.

I think the rest of your post is fine but I have to heaavilly disagree with this nom right here. In the first place, mamoswine is just flat out inferior as a wallbreaker, as it cannot break common cores on its own like celepex. I mean the fact that celesteela itself its such a solid and common check should speak for itself, kyu-b has no real equivalent outside of mega scizor (which also hard walls mamo anyway).

I have no clue how its dragon typing is a hindrance in the slightest, it provides valuable resistances to water,grass, and electric and a neutrality to fire, and the weakness to dragon/fairy is well worth the bulk and resistances the dragon typing gives. It can easily take hits from mons like tapu koko (not specs dazzle), tapu bulu (not z-fight), tangrowth, amoonguss, venusaur, greninja, zapdos, volcanion, etc etc. Obviously its not a wall to many of these pokemon, but taking a single hit and killing back is very helpful in offense matchups where wallbreakers tend to be less useful.

I also have no clue how mamo requires "not nearly as much prediction," when you have to routinely guess between crash/eq when shit like gren/scarf magnezone/mega pinsir/keldeo/blacephalon/victini/celesteela/charizard could potentially switch-in on the right stab move and threaten you out. Kyu-b atleast has the option to safely blow back anything with its subzero slammer (and mamo's z-crash is pathetic in comparison, there's very little reason to run z-crash mamo when icium kyu-b is a set). I get that kyu-b requires some prediction too, every wallbreaker does, but to say mamo has it way easier is totally incorrect.

Its ironic that you end off your nom by saying kartana, mega medi, and hawlucha beats kyurem when woop de fucking do all of the above beat mamoswine too! To top it off, kartana can even switch directly in on jolly LO icicle crash+ice shard, live 100% of the time, and ohko you right back with leaf blade (LO eq+ice shard doesn't always kill either). You can make the argument that common pokemon like tyranitar and magearna checking kyu-b but not switching into mamo makes it better for this meta, but even then you'd be overlooking a super solid kyu-b set called z-fusion bolt. With electric terrain support (and kyu-b is an excellent partner for koko anyway), look at these hot calcs:

z-fusion bolt+eterrain

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 319-376 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar in Electric Terrain: 332-391 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Electric Terrain: 316-372 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 309-364 (77 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 360-424 (89.3 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 476-561 (67.8 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 342-403 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

obviously it falls behind z-freeze shock in some aspects, but it does what no other kyurem can: destroy magearna and tyranitar immediately, and for that, it can be validated as a completely viable set, and mamoswine truly only has ice-shard over kyu-b in my humble opinion. If ya run hp fire, even with no investment, that+z-bolt is blowin away mega scizor too, so this really is a cool set.

So mamoswine is a solid tapu koko check, sets rocks, has ice shard, and is an adequate threat on the side, and kyu-b does the whole wallbreaking thing waay better. The current difference in ranks correctly reflects that, and kyurem should stay in A for sure.
Also sorry for the essay

 

[Altervisi]

I think the rest of your post is fine but I have to heaavilly disagree with this nom right here. In the first place, mamoswine is just flat out inferior as a wallbreaker, as it cannot break common cores on its own like celepex. I mean the fact that celesteela itself its such a solid and common check should speak for itself, kyu-b has no real equivalent outside of mega scizor (which also hard walls mamo anyway).

I have no clue how its dragon typing is a hindrance in the slightest, it provides valuable resistances to water,grass, and electric and a neutrality to fire, and the weakness to dragon/fairy is well worth the bulk and resistances the dragon typing gives. It can easily take hits from mons like tapu koko (not specs dazzle), tapu bulu (not z-fight), tangrowth, amoonguss, venusaur, greninja, zapdos, volcanion, etc etc. Obviously its not a wall to many of these pokemon, but taking a single hit and killing back is very helpful in offense matchups where wallbreakers tend to be less useful.

I also have no clue how mamo requires "not nearly as much prediction," when you have to routinely guess between crash/eq when shit like gren/scarf magnezone/mega pinsir/keldeo/blacephalon/victini/celesteela/charizard could potentially switch-in on the right stab move and threaten you out. Kyu-b atleast has the option to safely blow back anything with its subzero slammer (and mamo's z-crash is pathetic in comparison, there's very little reason to run z-crash mamo when icium kyu-b is a set). I get that kyu-b requires some prediction too, every wallbreaker does, but to say mamo has it way easier is totally incorrect.

Its ironic that you end off your nom by saying kartana, mega medi, and hawlucha beats kyurem when woop de fucking do all of the above beat mamoswine too! To top it off, kartana can even switch directly in on jolly LO icicle crash+ice shard, live 100% of the time, and ohko you right back with leaf blade (LO eq+ice shard doesn't always kill either). You can make the argument that common pokemon like tyranitar and magearna checking kyu-b but not switching into mamo makes it better for this meta, but even then you'd be overlooking a super solid kyu-b set called z-fusion bolt. With electric terrain support (and kyu-b is an excellent partner for koko anyway), look at these hot calcs:

z-fusion bolt+eterrain

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 319-376 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar in Electric Terrain: 332-391 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Electric Terrain: 316-372 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 309-364 (77 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 360-424 (89.3 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 476-561 (67.8 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Gigavolt Havoc (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 342-403 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

obviously it falls behind z-freeze shock in some aspects, but it does what no other kyurem can: destroy magearna and tyranitar immediately, and for that, it can be validated as a completely viable set, and mamoswine truly only has ice-shard over kyu-b in my humble opinion. If ya run hp fire, even with no investment, that+z-bolt is blowin away mega scizor too, so this really is a cool set.

So mamoswine is a solid tapu koko check, sets rocks, has ice shard, and is an adequate threat on the side, and kyu-b does the whole wallbreaking thing waay better. The current difference in ranks correctly reflects that, and kyurem should stay in A for sure.
Also sorry for the essay

While I agree with a lot of SRN's points, I still think A is overrating this thing, Mamoswine is worse, but does give competition that was previously not as hot. The rise of checks to Kyurem and Mamoswine as a competitor are two seperate points.

Dragon type gives a weakness to Dragon and Fairy, and mons with FWG STAB have Sacred Sword, Dragon Claw and Dark Pulse for example (Kart, ZardX, Gren, all of which have a chance to OHKO after Rocks and outspeeds), Ground typing grants an immunity and STAB Earthquake, plus Thick Fat is great with this type combo.

I think it requires less prediction than Mamoswine because at worst it is a 50/50 between EQ and Ice. Even then you can just go for Knock Off for utility. Whatever set you run with Kyurem, you're missing out on some top threats that are really detrimental to its usefulness in games. Barely OHKO'ing non invested Magearna with a 100BP Electric Z-Boosted Move in Terrain isnt all that impressive.

The post also doesn't really address my main points that Ice STAB isn't as great anymore and all the raises, as well as mons that are currently ramping up in usage, beat Kyurem.

Ofc I'm not badged so there is literally no one who will support this now lol.

 

[Mellow]

While I agree with a lot of SRN's points, I still think A is overrating this thing, Mamoswine is worse, but does give competition that was previously not as hot. The rise of checks to Kyurem and Mamoswine as a competitor are two seperate points.

Dragon type gives a weakness to Dragon and Fairy, and mons with FWG STAB have Sacred Sword, Dragon Claw and Dark Pulse for example (Kart, ZardX, Gren, all of which have a chance to OHKO after Rocks and outspeeds), Ground typing grants an immunity and STAB Earthquake, plus Thick Fat is great with this type combo.

I think it requires less prediction than Mamoswine because at worst it is a 50/50 between EQ and Ice. Even then you can just go for Knock Off for utility. Whatever set you run with Kyurem, you're missing out on some top threats that are really detrimental to its usefulness in games. Barely OHKO'ing non invested Magearna with a 100BP Electric Z-Boosted Move in Terrain isnt all that impressive.

The post also doesn't really address my main points that Ice STAB isn't as great anymore and all the raises, as well as mons that are currently ramping up in usage, beat Kyurem.

Ofc I'm not badged so there is literally no one who will support this now lol.

I'm also gonna disagree with the Kyurem drop, this shit is still as impossible as ever to switch into, and it's not like Mamoswine is anything new to the tier; yes, it's gone up in usage thanks to Joey but if Mamoswine was a heavy competitor to Kyurem B it would've dropped a while ago to reflect this. You say that stuff carrying FWG STAB carries some super-effective / non-resisted coverage, however it usually doesn't OHKO due to KyuB's bulk;

yum

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 252-298 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 270-318 (69 - 81.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (this is assuming it's transformed too, and it's -SpDef)
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (OHKOs after Stealth Rocks but vs Zard X rocks probably aren't up because they're usually defogging them away for their Zard anyway and DD Blitz + EQ is running around a bit more now too)

I don't really see how Mamoswine is less prediction heavy also; Mamo doesn't have a pretty much no drawback, ridiculously powerful Z move to throw off whenever it wants (as said before Z Crash is pathetic in comparison), and saying you can click Knock Off for utility isn't really a good point because it's not very strong and you're usually forced out by whatever they're going into. I don't really see what big threats you're missing out on too; Ice resists practically don't exist in the tier, and the ones that do usually don't like taking Fusion Bolts at all, especially in terrain;

calcs

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 191-225 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Mega Scizor is a problem for Z Move yes, but they can't come in on LO, another viable set rn, as HP Fire is gonna blow that thing back. Also, it's more of a problem for Mamoswine as it is hopelessly walled by MZor. I also don't really see how Ice STAB isn't as great in OU rn, what's changed? If anything it's getting better due to Tornadus rising and Pex having dropped in usage a bit.

Ofc I'm not badged so there is literally no one who will support this now lol.

Imo this is a bit of a stupid and somewhat bitchy comment to make; if your point is good, people will support it, doesn't matter if you have some shitty little ladybug or whatever, if people aren't responding to your nom it's probably because most people don't agree with it.

 

[BlueLobster]

I'd like to nominate

from C+ to B-
I've recently started using Ditto as a revenge kill / sweeper and found it to be really good. As Ditto can act as a scout to see what my opponents moves be to further let you set up on a specific pokemon. Ditto's mu against stall can be great for it by being knocked off and becoming a huge nuisance to stall. The only bad thing I can think about Ditto is if an opponent's mon is behind a sub or cm unaware Clef. Other than that it can provide a good amount of support to a team.

Here’s a replay of Ditto taking out half the team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-723945205

I strongly disagree with this one. I've been using Ditto quite a bit recently and in all fairness, it isn't terrible, but it is certainly not worthy of rising. It's still a massive gimmick, with C+ seeming to be the best place to keep gimmicks (it's alongside webs and veil), and speaking of gimmicks, I'd have to say Ditto is probably worse than the two I've named right now, and certainly should not rise above them. In terms of Ditto's effectiveness, it fails to revenge Hawlucha, which is just as potent as ever, which is probably the biggest flaw of a catch all revenger/panic button. I've found it is mostly not Ditto, but the presence of Ditto that is the beneficial thing about it: your opponent can't set up. However, if we consider Ditto's usefulness in games where your opponent doesn't misplay by doing so, it is often just a revenger that isn't as matchup based as something like scarf kart/keld, who can struggle to KO some things you want to revenge due to lack of coverage. Ditto does not have this issue as it just copied the opponent, but this has issues of its own as it doesn't have the ability to use your opponent's z move (which means it can lose to a reasonably healthy boosted Volc, for instance) and also good luck if this is your only scarfer if you use this on an offensive team, as you'll be relying on 50/50s or them being locked into the wrong move to revenge all of them, even slower ones like Heatran. Its quite hard to fit on offense mainly for this reason, and also because it needs something relatively durable to switch into in matchups V bulkier teams pre knock. In short, it's a mediocre gimmick that, while viable, certainly should not go above C+.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Scolipede C- > C/C+
I have already said that it should rise and I was surprised it didn’t get much support. I’ll explain why again. Scolipede has the potential to sweep entire teams on its own that lack Tornadus-T, Zapdos, or Mega-Pinsir thanks to having a low-key broken ability (Speed Boost). I found out that Bugium-Z is better than Z-Aqua Tail since it gets to score kills vs Zygarde, Ferrothorn, Bulu, and Hippo at +2. Bug/Water/Ground coverage hits nearly all of the tier Super Effectively. It can get off a Swords Dance rather easily having a respectable enough typing.

calcs

:Offensive Calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 276-326 (91 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery



+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 432-508 (122.7 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 481-567 (119 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 502-592 (146.3 - 172.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery



+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 396-466 (94.2 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



+1 252+ Atk Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 210-248 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



:Defensive Calcs:



0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 163-193 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 195-229 (74.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede in Grassy Terrain: 77-91 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery



176 Atk Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 204-242 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I forgot to mention how it can be a great partner for Koko. As it cleans out many common Koko answers. It does suffer a weak matchup vs a good number of our flying types, mainly Lucha, Zapdos and Mega-Pinsir who check it with ease. All in all, Scolipede is an underrated anti-meta threat rn.

 

[Ampha]

It is not better than Azelf or Avalugg because they fulfill a small niche that make them viable on a specific playstyle,

While this is true,bird spam is literally a dead playstyle(Dragonite's low viability is a proof of this) and that's the main reason basically for you to use azelf

Also a speed boosted Kommo-o is still easy to revenge kill because it's Speed sucks and it is weak to common types.

that's why it's said it does the job better on WEBS teams where revenge killing kommo can be more difficult
Ps:Ninja needs be transformed out to cause a big damage on kommo since before transformation it needs 4/5 hits to take more than 20% HP

The set you posted is also hopelessly walled by the most common Pokemon in the tier, not even a 2HKO at +6.

And for that,Lando can not punish kommo If subs is up unless it's scarf, since kommo 2/3 OHKOs defensive lando with subs up(+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 169-200 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO and deals a huge damage on offensive ones) and even with subs off it needs kommo to be weakened or it may not kill kommo bc it recovers itself with lando's HP while considering Eq rolls
Flyinium and scarf are it's main problems in general considering this tbh

 

[Scuba Diver]

I’d like to agree with ranking Kommo-o in C- to start, I think it absolutely has merit on webs and veil teams. I don’t think we’re really going to break the VR if it’s chilling with shit like Niheligo right? Despite its relatively lackluster typing Bulletproof is actually pretty decent ability and it has the widest variety of setup options of any mon in OU and a diverse movepool. The fact people mindlessly switch their fairy types into it allow you to easily score some chip to set yourself up for a later sweep or double out.

 

[volx757]

While I agree with a lot of SRN's points, I still think A is overrating this thing, Mamoswine is worse, but does give competition that was previously not as hot. The rise of checks to Kyurem and Mamoswine as a competitor are two seperate points.

Dragon type gives a weakness to Dragon and Fairy, and mons with FWG STAB have Sacred Sword, Dragon Claw and Dark Pulse for example (Kart, ZardX, Gren, all of which have a chance to OHKO after Rocks and outspeeds), Ground typing grants an immunity and STAB Earthquake, plus Thick Fat is great with this type combo.

I think it requires less prediction than Mamoswine because at worst it is a 50/50 between EQ and Ice. Even then you can just go for Knock Off for utility. Whatever set you run with Kyurem, you're missing out on some top threats that are really detrimental to its usefulness in games. Barely OHKO'ing non invested Magearna with a 100BP Electric Z-Boosted Move in Terrain isnt all that impressive.

The post also doesn't really address my main points that Ice STAB isn't as great anymore and all the raises, as well as mons that are currently ramping up in usage, beat Kyurem.

Ofc I'm not badged so there is literally no one who will support this now lol.

The point that Ice STAB isn't great anymore isn't really backed up by anything. You said people are running fewer ice-weak mons, but that's anecdotal and doesn't point to any evidence. I mean consider that the most used mon in OU is 4x weak to ice, as are new rises tornadus-t, mega lati@s, and staraptor. Hidden power ice is still the most common HP in the meta, because ice is just such a good offensive type.

As for the rises beating kyub, most of them don't actually beat it (greninja, magnezone, tornt) or can't switch in at all (everyone else but avalugg). Aside from that, most of these rises are offensive mons/sets, and it's always been the case that kyurem is a balance breaker, not a fast cannon for beating back offense; it's not like you're staying in on mega-medicham.

Yes, kyub lacks a physical ice move outside of freeze shock, and it has to choose if it wants to be walled by scizor or beaten by heatran, but these are the things that hold it back from being Uber, not from being A in OU.

Kyurem-B A -> A- Disagree

 

[Katy]

Kyurem-B A -> A- Disagree

I also disagree with a drop on KyuBlack, KyuBlack is one of the mons thats hard to switchin to. Nice Dual Stab coverage, being able to hit a large portion of the mons currently is really great on it. Also the LO sets hit really hard with coverage moves like EPower and HP Fire. Roost giving it longevity is also a viable option. His speed tier also is not that bad either.
I think KyuBlack should stay where it is. No need to drop a mon, which isable to offensively pressure teams.

 

[Mellow]

Alright, time to follow suit with all the UR noms, I want my smogon tokens.

Golem-Alola UR -> C-/C

I'd say C for this but going up two subranks might be too big for it straight away, anyway, onto the nom.
Golem-A's niche in OU is as a trapper with Magnet Pull. It's obviously contested by Magnezone in this role, however it does something that Magnezone doesn't - it traps and kills Heatran. This is obviously huge for some pokemon who love Heatran out of the way, two great examples are Volcarona and Serperior. This is the set it runs;

big daddy alolem

Golem-Alola @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge
- Fire Punch
- Stealth Rock / Explosion (either can work imo)

Scarf lets you outspeed Heatran, Bisharp and Jirachi, Earthquake hits the aforementioned Heatran, Jirachi, Bisharp and Stakataka, it also hits Magnezone (trap the trapper lol), Wild Charge is a strong STAB that hits Celesteela and Skarmory, Fire Punch hits Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn and last slot is a tossup, Rocks are nice because they're Rocks and Explosion is nice to surprise Lando on the switch and to just generally hit shit hard if they don't resist. The mon is a meme, but a viable meme, which is why I'm nomming it to C-/C.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-355950 - goomy beautifully showed off what this mon can do. it killed heatran, mega mawile and boomed on bulu, fantastic showcase.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-726211136 - a replay of my own, alolem traps Heatran really early in the game, allowing volc to just click buttons later on.

 

[Moron5]

Alright, time to follow suit with all the UR noms, I want my smogon tokens.
View attachment 108646Golem-Alola UR -> C-/C

I'd say C for this but going up two subranks might be too big for it straight away, anyway, onto the nom.
Golem-A's niche in OU is as a trapper with Magnet Pull. It's obviously contested by Magnezone in this role, however it does something that Magnezone doesn't - it traps and kills Heatran. This is obviously huge for some pokemon who love Heatran out of the way, two great examples are Volcarona and Serperior. This is the set it runs;

big daddy alolem

Golem-Alola @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge
- Fire Punch
- Stealth Rock / Explosion (either can work imo)

Scarf lets you outspeed Heatran, Earthquake hits the aforementioned Heatran, it also hits Magnezone (trap the trapper lol), Wild Charge is a strong STAB that hits Celesteela and Skarmory, Fire Punch hits Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn and last slot is a tossup, Rocks are nice because they're Rocks and Explosion is nice to surprise Lando on the switch and to just generally hit shit hard if they don't resist. The mon is a meme, but a viable meme, which is why I'm nomming it to C-/C.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-355950 - goomy beautifully showed off what this mon can do. it killed heatran, mega mawile and boomed on bulu, fantastic showcase.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-726211136 - a replay of my own, alolem traps Heatran really early in the game, allowing volc to just click buttons later on.

Agree completely for justice for Alogolem. Some other things to add as well though. Combined with an eject button mon you can effectively block AV Magearna’s volt switch and deal like 50% with EQ which is major chip that Zone can’t do even with Z-bolt. I encourage anyone who wants to use this to use a EB mon for this reason as well as Scizor’s and Jirachi’s uturn. Also I recommend just going max speed jolly golem cause it beats jolly lando. Another thing to note, it has an easier time against Bisharp, Stakataka, and Jirachi. The opportunity cost for using this over zone though is you lose the ability to trap kartana that’s not locked into knock or smart strike, Physdef Skarm, and a bunch of nice speed tiers Zone hits (also not as splashable) so I can’t see this going beyond the C subranks but definitely deserves some sort of rank.

 

[Altervisi]

The point that Ice STAB isn't great anymore isn't really backed up by anything. You said people are running fewer ice-weak mons, but that's anecdotal and doesn't point to any evidence. I mean consider that the most used mon in OU is 4x weak to ice, as are new rises tornadus-t, mega lati@s, and staraptor. Hidden power ice is still the most common HP in the meta, because ice is just such a good offensive type.

As for the rises beating kyub, most of them don't actually beat it (greninja, magnezone, tornt) or can't switch in at all (everyone else but avalugg). Aside from that, most of these rises are offensive mons/sets, and it's always been the case that kyurem is a balance breaker, not a fast cannon for beating back offense; it's not like you're staying in on mega-medicham.

Yes, kyub lacks a physical ice move outside of freeze shock, and it has to choose if it wants to be walled by scizor or beaten by heatran, but these are the things that hold it back from being Uber, not from being A in OU.

Kyurem-B A -> A- Disagree

That wasn't my point though, it was that fewer people are running 'multiple' 4x weak mons on one team. Ok here is some evidence, with two of the top 4x weak to Ice mons are below, both only have only two of their top twelve partners also weak to Ice (only 2x), 4 from Landorus resist, 1 of them a 4x resist. 5 of Zygardes resist.

Before when no-one used Weavile or Mamoswine, people could run Zyagrde, Landorus and Tapu Bulu with nothing to fear really. Also how is being walled by two extremely common top OU not a detriment to its OU viability? Ice is not that amazing, HP [Ice] just hits the Ground types most electrics can't and has perfect coverage along side Electric. Landorus carries just for opposing Landog as it is such a common lead.

While not all can beat 1v1, Kyurem can't come in on Scarf Ninja as Rock Slide is 2HKO. Magnezone outspeeds and KO's after Rocks so idk what your point was there. Tornadus outspeeds and KO's with the Z-Move. Also I'll add this thing hates hazards which are everywhere now. Still on Kyurem-B to A-

.

Hide

+----------------------------------------+
| Landorus-Therian |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 1100368 |
| Avg. weight: 0.102709943733 |
| Viability Ceiling: 91 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Intimidate 100.000% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Choice Scarf 24.452% |
| Leftovers 21.963% |
| Rocky Helmet 21.103% |
| Flyinium Z 11.730% |
| Focus Sash 8.548% |
| Rockium Z 4.152% |
| Yache Berry 3.613% |
| Other 4.440% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 12.567% |
| Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 10.259% |
| Impish:252/0/240/0/0/16 7.412% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.880% |
| Naive:0/252/0/4/0/252 3.580% |
| Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 2.897% |
| Other 59.406% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Earthquake 98.961% |
| U-turn 67.888% |
| Stealth Rock 63.178% |
| Hidden Power Ice 55.298% |
| Defog 20.616% |
| Stone Edge 18.038% |
| Swords Dance 17.280% |
| Explosion 14.715% |
| Fly 11.836% |
| Knock Off 10.722% |
| Smack Down 4.640% |
| Other 16.828% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Tapu Koko +7.956% |
| Magearna +6.833% |
| Greninja-Ash +4.876% |
| Kartana +4.656% |
| Medicham-Mega +3.661% |
| Tapu Lele +2.773% |
| Kyurem-Black +2.715% |
| Latios +2.143% |
| Heatran +2.008% |
| Magnezone +2.003% |
| Alakazam-Mega +1.339% |
| Lopunny-Mega +1.256% |
+----------------------------------------+

Hide

+----------------------------------------+
| Zygarde |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 318854 |
| Avg. weight: 0.132128823526 |
| Viability Ceiling: 91 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Aura Break 100.000% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Leftovers 26.619% |
| Choice Band 24.433% |
| Dragonium Z 10.632% |
| Iapapa Berry 9.786% |
| Weakness Policy 9.014% |
| Figy Berry 4.377% |
| Groundium Z 4.338% |
| Sitrus Berry 3.730% |
| Aguav Berry 2.779% |
| Other 4.293% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 24.332% |
| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 9.133% |
| Adamant:160/216/0/0/28/104 8.981% |
| Adamant:188/140/0/0/0/180 8.758% |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 4.035% |
| Adamant:160/168/0/0/0/180 3.370% |
| Other 41.390% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Thousand Arrows 99.645% |
| Extreme Speed 73.221% |
| Dragon Dance 64.601% |
| Outrage 40.427% |
| Substitute 36.486% |
| Coil 27.570% |
| Toxic 19.719% |
| Iron Tail 14.441% |
| Protect 11.263% |
| Other 12.627% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Scizor-Mega +6.248% |
| Magearna +5.683% |
| Greninja +4.589% |
| Ninetales-Alola +3.731% |
| Diancie-Mega +3.598% |
| Gyarados-Mega +2.596% |
| Tornadus-Therian +2.187% |
| Ditto +1.760% |
| Tapu Bulu +1.657% |
| Mew +1.558% |
| Bisharp +1.482% |
| Shuckle +1.355% |
+----------------------------------------+

Calcs

176 Atk Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 186-222 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 320-378 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 327-385 (83.6 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[stuuful12]

From C to C- or Unranked

Seeing the fact that this thing will actually be higher than Dragonite in terms of viability gave me an aneurysm. So I'm just going to nom it down, so that will be remedied.

Just take most of the problems that Dragonite faces, slap a blue coat of paint, give it a worse movepool so it can't take on the majority of its checks, a worse ability, and a better speed tier in exchange for the ability to set-up on half as much things, and that basically sums up what Salamence is supposed to do in this tier. Its basically a mismatch of all of Dragonite's and Gyarados's qualities, but doesn't have any of their best redeeming qualities putting it in this awkward spot where you just start to wonder why your not using a Gyarados or a Dragonite to begin with.

Unlike Dragonite, it doesn't have any of the fun multiscale action meaning that its ability to set-up efficiently is severely dampened versus the entirety of the metagame. This is most apparent against mons like Landorus, who just utterly wall this thing back and forth. And unlike Dragonite, who at full health can actually use Landorus to set-up, Salamence is cleanly 2HKOed by Hidden Power Ice, and needs to set-up three dragon dances on Landorus's face to actually ohko it with Flyinium which would never happen. And this effectively should demonstrate Salamence's viability right there: getting hard-walled by the best pokemon in the tier Aside from that, it also struggles with basically all of Dragonite's counters, except on a grander scale because it isn't as bulky with Multiscale intact.

Unlike Gyarados, it doesn't have that amazing typing and stab combination that is Water Flying, and really only has Dragon Claw and a higher speed tier and slight higher attack to differentiate itself from the water serpent. But unlike Gyarados who's stab combination is unresisted in Ou outside of Rotom Wash, Salamence struggles to break Celesteela, and Landorus, and any form of fast ice coverage which infests the tier as of present. All of which helps Gyarados effectively snowball faster and much better than Salamence wishes it could. Gyarados even has Taunt to help set-up on defensive mons, unlike Salamence. All of these reason leads to Salamence being somewhat outclassed in its role, and Dragonite's dropping in viabilty shows that those traits aren't as appreciated

TLDR: Salamence is a poor man's Dragonite / Gyarados, and since the former dropped to the fringes of viability, its only right to drop Salamence, whether it be to C- or Unranked

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I completely agree with Alolem being ranked. In all honesty, alolem is an extremely underrated pokemon in all tiers, as people don't know what to expect from it due to it having many different sets, and OU is no different. Heatran is trapped and killed guaranteed by scarf alolem and it also traps some other steel types like Skarmory, Celesteela, and Magnezone, which is nice as well. It also has a really fun lead set with stealth rocks and galvanize explosion. Really cool mon that deserves to be ranked imo

 

[Chessking345]

Is there a reason to why Camerupt is in C, I am going to echo SeniorGibus's nomination (824) to C+ and even B- if possible.
So pretty much there are very few switch-ins to its STABs and even fewer if Nature Power+Terrain Support is provided (Much better than Charizard Y since Pex walls that)

So Stuff That Can Come In

Chansey (lol its a special attacker)
Mantine (rare and dies to Koko support, hates Rock Slide)
Lati@s (If no recovery gets chipped easily by Fire Blast, dies to Fini support)
Gastrodon (Takes a lot from Earth Power so dies by chip, dies to Bulu support)
Washtom (2HKO after rocks, no recovery)
Charizard Y (Dies to Rock Slide and Koko support, Fire Blast does min 62.2 under Sun)
Pelipper (Dies to Koko support, 2HKO by no terrain nature power after rocks, offensive dies to normal nature power or rock slide)
Dragonite (Multiscale breaks upon switch in, dies to Fini support, without multiscale takes a lot from any move)
Gyarados (Dies to Koko support, Rock Slide 2HKOs)

This camel breaks common defensive cores such as LandoGear and CelePex, in addition checks stuff like Koko and even Heatran. Its a great partner for Koko as Koko provides Terrain and VoltTurn support and they beat each other checks (Koko lures fat grasses). Even if there was an answer it could always just set up Rocks as it forces out many defoggers/spinners and beats the Bouncers. Not even sure why this dropped in the first place.

 

[Leo]

Hey, a couple reminders:
First, please avoid bandwagoning UR noms if you’re not providing any useful information. These “oh yeah totally agree with this nom golem is amaZING” posts can get pretty repetitive and don’t really achieve anything, the original nom got to the point and provided replays to back up their arguments so unless you have a strong argument against it or something the op may have missed just leave it there, the vr council will vote on it in the next slate regardless.
Next, and this shouldn’t need to be stated explicitly, but joke noms/posts are not allowed and will be infracted. April fools or not they just make our job harder so yea unless you want a swift 2 pointer don’t do that.
Happy Easter everyone!

 

[Astoria]

Hippowdon to B-

srsly this being C+ next to Mimikyu, MMane and other mons who only have a small niche is a joke. Hippo checks top tier threats like Koko, Zygarde, Magearna, Hawlucha, MScizor, Ttar, Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir and Scarf Magnezone. Sand is annoying for many teams to deal with, wearing down things with no recovery like AshGren and it can help with rain. Also hippo can easily set up rocks in most games quiet reliably.
It's obvious that it is a very passive mon but Hippo just being around in the back can be very annoying for the opponent when you patch it's weaknesses.

I also have a pretty nice replay of hippo doing work in a tournament game. After I wore down Lando and KyuB it pretty much won me the game alone.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-726081977

 

[Colonel M]

One last reminder to add onto Leo's post:

• I highly suggest keeping nominations to only a subtier rise or drop. When you nominate a large spike like the Latios drop or the Dragonite rise, there's a lot of questions that have to be naturally asked. Some examples include "should other Pokemon be brought up or meet towards the middle to compensate, and if so where?" While I agree that regular Latios isn't really in the best of shape within the metagame, to suggest a significant drop like to C+ (like the Chansey nomination) is a bit high. Let's ignore the fact that the Chansey nomination was absolutely terrible for a moment.
  
  The moral of the story is - try to stick to a subtier and let the VR tyrants users determine if a Pokemon should drop or rise significantly or not.

Also if I see one more shitpost I will lock and personally infract you. And because it's April Fools, if I catch you, I'll make it 3 points.

Do not test my patience today.

 

[Nuked]

I don't really think Mega Lopunny belongs in A- anymore. It did back in the pre-Hawlucha meta, but with Hawlucha's massive rise in popularity, it's faced with not only competiton, but a check as well. Lopunny also doesn't like how popular Clefable, Lando, Pex and even Zapdos and Tornadus-T continue to be. It faces not only competition from Hawlucha but also Mega Medicham for a Fighting-type on a team, as well as general competition from other megas like Scizor and even Heracross. Finally, it was used 7 times total in SPL, where it won one time. Compare this to Zapdos, who was used 29 times this SPL season and won 50% of the time. Hell, if you want to go further, even Tangrowth, which was used 24 times, won 50% of the time.

So basically, Mega Lopunny faces a lot of competition, is worse than and used less than most A- and even some B+ mons, and doesn't like the continued prevalence of its checks and counters. Drop to B+.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

I don't really think Mega Lopunny belongs in A- anymore. It did back in the pre-Hawlucha meta, but with Hawlucha's massive rise in popularity, it's faced with not only competiton, but a check as well. Lopunny also doesn't like how popular Clefable, Lando, Pex and even Zapdos and Tornadus-T continue to be. It faces not only competition from Hawlucha but also Mega Medicham for a Fighting-type on a team, as well as general competition from other megas like Scizor and even Heracross. Finally, it was used 7 times total in SPL, where it won one time. Compare this to Zapdos, who was used 29 times this SPL season and won 50% of the time. Hell, if you want to go further, even Tangrowth, which was used 24 times, won 50% of the time.

So basically, Mega Lopunny faces a lot of competition, is worse than and used less than most A- and even some B+ mons, and doesn't like the continued prevalence of its checks and counters. Drop to B+.

I disagree with a Lopunny drop. Sure, it struggles with Hawlucha, but so does Heatran, I don’t think Hawlucha should be the sole reason a mon should drop. Tornadus Therian is also not a very good answer to Lopunny as it lol dies after Rocks or Fake Out.
Landorus Therian is easy to pressure and also gets 2HKOed by Ice Punch. Besides, even if it isn’t, Landorus Therian isn’t anything new. The Encore set also beats all of the checks you mentioned if played properly. Heck, you can actually win against Zapdos or Toxapex with hazard support.
Medicham, Heracross, and Scizor have nothing in common with Lopunny other than being Megas, as Scizor is mainly a defensive Pokémon and the other two are more of breakers. You wouldn’t generally want to run both of these Pokémon on the same team anyway.
You also mentioned winrates as reasoning for your nomination, which I don’t think is very solid evidence tbh. Landorus Therian has always had a negative win loss ratio. This does not mean Lando should drop.
Lopunny should remain in A- as it is a very solid cleaner. I see it being on the level of the other A- mons.

 

[matthewc20090]

ok let me address your points one by one

I disagree with a Lopunny drop. Sure, it struggles with Hawlucha, but so does Heatran, I don’t think Hawlucha should be the sole reason a mon should drop.

heatran at least prevents hawlucha from coming in by threatening a burn with plume or chipping 75% off with magma storm. meanwhile, not only is mega lopunny complete setup fodder for hawlucha, but hawlucha also gives it a ton of competition as a late game cleaner.

Landorus Therian is easy to pressure and also gets 2HKOed by Ice Punch. Besides, even if it isn’t, Landorus Therian isn’t anything new. The Encore set also beats all of the checks you mentioned if played properly. Heck, you can actually win against Zapdos or Toxapex with hazard support.

lando t isn't 2hkod by ice punch and the point was that none of the fat mons in OU are 2hkod by mega lopunny, and nearly every team will have at least one switch in

Medicham, Heracross, and Scizor have nothing in common with Lopunny other than being Megas, as Scizor is mainly a defensive Pokémon and the other two are more of breakers. You wouldn’t generally want to run both of these Pokémon on the same team anyway.

I disagree since these pokemon all give Mega Lopunny competition as a mega. while their roles are different, they are simply better and more useful than mega lop and as such find themselves on more teams.

You also mentioned winrates as reasoning for your nomination, which I don’t think is very solid evidence tbh. Landorus Therian has always had a negative win loss ratio. This does not mean Lando should drop.
Lopunny should remain in A- as it is a very solid cleaner. I see it being on the level of the other A- mons.

Lando t is a special case since its used so much that its basically has a 50% winrate since its used on both sides. meanwhile mega lopunny a) has very very low usage for a pokemon in ou in tournaments and b) has a very low winrate in the games it was used. while this doesn't provide direct evidence, it definitely reflects the viability drop that mega lop's been facing for a while now.

in summary, mega lop faces competition from other mons including hawlucha and mega medicham, has a low winrate and usage, and has a ton of counterplay and answers in OU. Drop it from A-.

 

[stuuful12]

ok let me address your points one by one

heatran at least prevents hawlucha from coming in by threatening a burn with plume or chipping 75% off with magma storm. meanwhile, not only is mega lopunny complete setup fodder for hawlucha, but hawlucha also gives it a ton of competition as a late game cleaner.

lando t isn't 2hkod by ice punch and the point was that none of the fat mons in OU are 2hkod by mega lopunny, and nearly every team will have at least one switch in

I disagree since these pokemon all give Mega Lopunny competition as a mega. while their roles are different, they are simply better and more useful than mega lop and as such find themselves on more teams.

Lando t is a special case since its used so much that its basically has a 50% winrate since its used on both sides. meanwhile mega lopunny a) has very very low usage for a pokemon in ou in tournaments and b) has a very low winrate in the games it was used. while this doesn't provide direct evidence, it definitely reflects the viability drop that mega lop's been facing for a while now.

in summary, mega lop faces competition from other mons including hawlucha and mega medicham, has a low winrate and usage, and has a ton of counterplay and answers in OU. Drop it to A-.

Did you mean B+

Either way, I can see the argument for dropping mega Lopunny and keeping it. On one hand, you have the fact that it still lates game cleans effiiciently, and still has a great match-up versus opposing offence, but on the other hand, you have the fact that the majority of teams in this meta are balance, and therefore have no problem checking Mega Lopunny. I think what Nuked was trying to say about Hawlucha and Lopunny is that every meta trend that tries to go against Hawlucha goes against Lopunny as well ( think the increase in Hippowdon usage, the majority of steel like Ferrothorn and Heatran carrying protect, Landorus also starting to run Toxic and Protect). But unlike Hawlucha, which is a much better late game cleaner, Lopunny struggles with the fact that a lot of walls in OU wall it, and none are as passive as they used to be, meaning that Lopunny is either beaten up by them, or risks getting statused. Lopunny also doesn't really drill holes into opposing pokemon, and you also have to hope that your opponent doesn't preserve a Scarf Kartana in the back. All of which are factors for a call to be dropped. There is also an argument that it is more comparable to mons in B+ Swampert and Mega Kazam in that it does what it does really well, but needs support. In swampert's case, that means rain support, in Lopunny's case, it means a good defensive backbone and a breaker to destroy opposing walls for it to clean


EDIT: Lol, just realized that its already been raised ignore that call for a Latias rise

 

[Nuked]

Mega Lopunny was ranked in B initially, then rose to A- because of a couple of factors. First, Mega Tyranitar was still a pretty popular sweeper, which it could easily keep in check. At the same time, Pokemon such as Protean Spikes Lead Greninja, Latios, Mega Diancie, Dugtrio, Mega Charizard Y, and Gengar were still prevalent. Mega Lopunny was amazing at heavily pressuring all of these Pokemon. Now that all of these Pokemon are either no longer really relevant or banned, it has a lot more shit that it just can't check anymore. They've all been replaced by checks to Lopunny too lol, like scarf Kartana and Hawlucha.

In addition to this, Mega Lopunny's role of a cleaner or fast offensive Pokemon has just been taken over by Hawlucha. Seriously, do you think there's no reason that nobody in tournaments use it? It's because everyone knows that it's mostly outclassed in the role of a Fighting-type by Hawlucha and Mega Medicham. You've gotta realize that while all three Pokemon are different, they're all Fighting-types, and you don't really want two Fighting-types on your team.

Basically, it no longer has that really strong niche anymore and I don't think A- really reflects just how viable it really is, and when you would use it. B+ is way more accurate. Even then, B+ isn't bad, just more niche.