Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[lydian]

I'd also like to hop on the removing-S- train. While it was an excellent solution at the time, I think at the moment this extra tier accomplishes nothing. Here are a couple implications of removing S-:

Landorus-T

While this Pokémon is still outstanding in the current metagame, mostly via its bulky Choice Scarf set, I think other Pokémon have caught up to its viability right now, all of which I'll cover later. But still, its viability doesn't seem to just match what it was a while ago. Some of its once more popular sets such as Defensive, Offensive Scarf, and Z-move have fallen a little bit out of favor, decreasing its omnipresence to some extent. This can be illustrated to some extent thanks to its usage actually dropping a bit in the high ladder (1825), as evidenced by the following:

2018-03: | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 47.07657% | 1072193 | 27.779% | 910598 | 31.165% |
2018-04: | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 46.83306% | 1007441 | 27.888% | 859529 | 31.445% |
2018-05: | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 42.47845% | 1035003 | 27.506% | 880833 | 30.895% |

In general, I think the likes of Zygarde and Heatran have for sure caught up with it in terms of viability.

Heatran

I think this Pokémon is just amazing right now, zero doubts. It has a fuckton of viable and effective sets; Firium Z is a devastating nuke that can bop Stall in a blink of an eye; Groundium Z is still nice for Toxapex running around, but it has fallen in favor a little bit; Grassium Z decimates Gastrodon Clefable builds and can also take down Mega Sableye with Tapu Bulu support; finally even Steelium Z is seeing some play (read: blunder winning his first trophy) and is amazing to severely damage Mega Eon Duo and Zygarde. All in all its Utility set is also equally as viable, fitting on basically any team and providing astounding role compression. I just think this mon has barely any flaws in the current meta and it really should be ranked alongside titans such as Landorus-T and Zygarde in S.

Zygarde

I know I just nominated this for S- but, in actuality, I think S is more fitting for it. With literally a dozen viable sets and able to cheese its way through nearly any of its checks, Zygarde is just disgustingly good right now. If S- is in fact removed, I think Zygarde definitely should be in S as opposed to A+. Zygarde also heavily capitalizes on typical Landorus-T / Clefable teambuilding with its Weakness Policy set and I think it the fact that it is so great against most of the current metagame really should be reflected. I wouldn't say there's unanimity in deciding the best Pokémon in OU, but I think we can all agree Zygarde is the most annoying to deal with.

Clefable

So, this is the kind of Pokémon that would really appreciate an S- rank. Its kind of in fact in between S and A+ but I think it can stay in A+ for now not to make S too crowded, especially since I do feel Zygarde, Heatran, and Landorus-T are kind of a step above it. In general, I think this mon should end up in A+ if the idea of removing S- is in fact adopted, but I can see it in either S or A+, to be honest. It'd most likely be the worst Pokémon in S or the second best in A+, after Kartana.

Kartana

Despite its recent Choice Band set making a big splash in terms of viability, I don't think Kartana can reach the standards of the big three (Landorus-T, Heatran, and Zygarde) just yet. Just like Clefable, it'd be that kind of mon that sits between S and A-, but I'd lean it a bit towards A+ to avoid making S too big. It'd most likely be the second worst Pokémon in S, after Clefable or the very best in A+.

With these intended changes the VR would look something along these lines, which I think reflects the current metagame a lot better:

SM OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

Heatran
Landorus-T

Zygarde

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Clefable

Ferrothorn

Greninja-Ash

Kartana

Magearna

Tapu Koko

Toxapex
[...]

Now, there have been a couple recent nominations I'd also like to give my support to. I fully agree with GMars' post and I think Zapdos

should drop again, in all honesty. While its a solid and splashable Physical wall, the moment Kartana wields a Choice Band, Zapdos loses a big portion of its charm.
Another one I'd like to rise, that I actually forgot to comment on my previous post (oops) is Mega Latias

. I think most of what I was going to say was already said, with new options in Reflect Type and Recover + 3 Attacks being further explored I think this Pokémon really deserves rise. It also heavily appreciates Gastrodon and Swords Dance Tapu Bulu flourishing again, as it has a great matchup with both.

 

[Srn]

idt the current noms are very interesting so lets start something fun

Bisharp C+-->B- or higher

I think bish is a mon that is suuuper slept on. It's a pokemon that has extremely lopsided matchups, but can nonetheless all be worked around with the proper support. While pokemon like zygarde, timid magearna, hawlucha, Tapu lele, Tapu koko, and greninja are all annoying, they can all be worked around with support like spikes or good teammates.

On the other hand, there are teams that like to use balance cores like clef/mega lati@s/Scarf Lando-t/Torn-t/gastro/Heatran/Ferro/toxapex/Celesteela/mega scizor with offensive mons like kartana/tapu bulu/alakazam/tapu koko/protean gren chipped with spikes, and these teams get absolutely torn apart by bisharp. It can SD up vs passive stuff like ferro/clef/etc or take advantage of webs/defog and threaten common fat mons and common speed control. +2 adamant z-sucker punch will OHKO toxapex, celesteela, mega scizor, ferrothorn, skarmory, and pretty much anything else you want dead that doesn't resist, and I think bisharp definitely needs the z-move+adamant nature to be at its best.

I think it really speaks volumes to just look at the teams used in the USM stour 25 finals and look at how weak both are to bisharp. If the bulu is slower for any reason, all that u need is minor chip on steela/kart/lando, bish grabs an SD and can literally 6-0 soulwinds team. Blunder's team is a bit more difficult given you have to pick between pex/steela/tang to use the z-sucker, but honestly his team is weak to it too, and with the right 50/50s it can 6-0 here too.
So it's pretty safe to say bisharp takes advantage of current teambuilding and metagame trends

Enuf theorymonning tho here's some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760156559 - this is a fun one of poppin stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760171946 - this one is more of a textbook example of bish being able to 6-0 a balance team

At the end of the day, bish needs a lot of help and you can still go wrong if you lose a 50/50, but this mon is still way too threatening to be in C+ imo. It's more at home alongside pokemon with actual respectable niches like mega heracross, tapu fini, jirachi, amoong, and hippo.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

idt the current noms are very interesting so lets start something fun

Bisharp C+-->B- or higher

I think bish is a mon that is suuuper slept on. It's a pokemon that has extremely lopsided matchups, but can nonetheless all be worked around with the proper support. While pokemon like zygarde, timid magearna, hawlucha, Tapu lele, Tapu koko, and greninja are all annoying, they can all be worked around with support like spikes or good teammates.

On the other hand, there are teams that like to use balance cores like clef/mega lati@s/Scarf Lando-t/Torn-t/gastro/Heatran/Ferro/toxapex/Celesteela/mega scizor with offensive mons like kartana/tapu bulu/alakazam/tapu koko/protean gren chipped with spikes, and these teams get absolutely torn apart by bisharp. It can SD up vs passive stuff like ferro/clef/etc or take advantage of webs/defog and threaten common fat mons and common speed control. +2 adamant z-sucker punch will OHKO toxapex, celesteela, mega scizor, ferrothorn, skarmory, and pretty much anything else you want dead that doesn't resist, and I think bisharp definitely needs the z-move+adamant nature to be at its best.

I think it really speaks volumes to just look at the teams used in the USM stour 25 finals and look at how weak both are to bisharp. If the bulu is slower for any reason, all that u need is minor chip on steela/kart/lando, bish grabs an SD and can literally 6-0 soulwinds team. Blunder's team is a bit more difficult given you have to pick between pex/steela/tang to use the z-sucker, but honestly his team is weak to it too, and with the right 50/50s it can 6-0 here too.
So it's pretty safe to say bisharp takes advantage of current teambuilding and metagame trends

Enuf theorymonning tho here's some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760156559 - this is a fun one of poppin stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760171946 - this one is more of a textbook example of bish being able to 6-0 a balance team

At the end of the day, bish needs a lot of help and you can still go wrong if you lose a 50/50, but this mon is still way too threatening to be in C+ imo. It's more at home alongside pokemon with actual respectable niches like mega heracross, tapu fini, jirachi, amoong, and hippo.

I do not agree with a rise, bisharp is fine where it is. Bisharp is in no way better than mons like Amoongus, Jirachi, Hippowdon or Fini. It may do well against Clef Latios Cores, being set up bait for Zygarde is never a good thing. If you want to use it as a hazard stacking mon which is more or less a dead playstyle go for it, that's why C+ exists for mons like bisharp. In those replays I don't believe bisharp actually did much, in the first he only did something because of a flinch and in the second he Killed a Magnezone and died. Considering webs which it's bisharp's main playstyle is dead it doesn't get much usage on that. Defiant may be nice for bisharp but honestly I don't think it's a niche to get him above C+, Unlike any of those B- mons I mentioned, I can never see myself using bisharp on a team.

Considering mons like Heatran and Psychic spam are huge rn, I don't feel that Bisharp should ever get out of C+. Heatran is also running Will-o-wisp a lot more now which is another thing that goes against Bisharp.

It may be threatning under the right conditions, but it needs a 50/50 to win or hax to win. Keep it in C+.

 

[Taptricity]

idt the current noms are very interesting so lets start something fun

Bisharp C+-->B- or higher

I think bish is a mon that is suuuper slept on. It's a pokemon that has extremely lopsided matchups, but can nonetheless all be worked around with the proper support. While pokemon like zygarde, timid magearna, hawlucha, Tapu lele, Tapu koko, and greninja are all annoying, they can all be worked around with support like spikes or good teammates.

On the other hand, there are teams that like to use balance cores like clef/mega lati@s/Scarf Lando-t/Torn-t/gastro/Heatran/Ferro/toxapex/Celesteela/mega scizor with offensive mons like kartana/tapu bulu/alakazam/tapu koko/protean gren chipped with spikes, and these teams get absolutely torn apart by bisharp. It can SD up vs passive stuff like ferro/clef/etc or take advantage of webs/defog and threaten common fat mons and common speed control. +2 adamant z-sucker punch will OHKO toxapex, celesteela, mega scizor, ferrothorn, skarmory, and pretty much anything else you want dead that doesn't resist, and I think bisharp definitely needs the z-move+adamant nature to be at its best.

I think it really speaks volumes to just look at the teams used in the USM stour 25 finals and look at how weak both are to bisharp. If the bulu is slower for any reason, all that u need is minor chip on steela/kart/lando, bish grabs an SD and can literally 6-0 soulwinds team. Blunder's team is a bit more difficult given you have to pick between pex/steela/tang to use the z-sucker, but honestly his team is weak to it too, and with the right 50/50s it can 6-0 here too.
So it's pretty safe to say bisharp takes advantage of current teambuilding and metagame trends

Enuf theorymonning tho here's some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760156559 - this is a fun one of poppin stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760171946 - this one is more of a textbook example of bish being able to 6-0 a balance team

At the end of the day, bish needs a lot of help and you can still go wrong if you lose a 50/50, but this mon is still way too threatening to be in C+ imo. It's more at home alongside pokemon with actual respectable niches like mega heracross, tapu fini, jirachi, amoong, and hippo.

Your replays weren’t that good at advocating a Bisharp rise. It really didn’t do that much. The first replay was ok but you got lucky with the flinch and with Zapdos somehow not heat waving you after so much sucker punch mindgames. The second replay was just you sding on a choice locked Zone and knocking it out but dying after when you had some misleading information with “6-0ing a balance team”. So now your argument does sound like a bunch of theorymonning against top player’s teams. Bisharp was only really usable in webs offense but that playstyle is pretty dead rn. Bisharp should also be able to come in on defoggers until you realize that most of them convienantly have something that can deal with Bisharp. Zygarde’s (aka the hell worm) and Heatran’s omnipresence really hurt this mon too. Bisharp is way too reliant on Sucker Punch to rack up KOs and that can easily be abused by your opponent. Bisharp is fine where it’s at. It’s heavily dependent on matchups but it at least its niche is better over the mons below it.

I really don’t want to be a minimod, but if you’re going to post replays please show the mon performing its niche effectively instead of it just hardly doing anything. I hate it when someone has a nom and then their replay is just the mon sweeping some goofy low ladder team, or it just being in the back for the majority of the battle just for it to be dissapointing when it’s sent out. Now I know I haven’t made the best posts on this thread (Pelipper nom was just terrible looking back at it), but I would never post a replay unless I’m certain that it’s representing the mon and really elaborating on its niche. Replays are
meant to give us a picture of how potentially dangerous a mon can be. They should not be full of mediocrity. Sorry for the rant, but it’s rare to see a good replay these days.

 

[Srn]

I do not agree with a rise, bisharp is fine where it is. Bisharp is in no way better than mons like Amoongus, Jirachi, Hippowdon or Fini. It may do well against Clef Latios Cores, being set up bait for Zygarde is never a good thing. If you want to use it as a hazard stacking mon which is more or less a dead playstyle go for it, that's why C+ exists for mons like bisharp. In those replays I don't believe bisharp actually did much, in the first he only did something because of a flinch and in the second he Killed a Magnezone and died. Considering webs which it's bisharp's main playstyle is dead it doesn't get much usage on that. Defiant may be nice for bisharp but honestly I don't think it's a niche to get him above C+, Unlike any of those B- mons I mentioned, I can never see myself using bisharp on a team.

Considering mons like Heatran and Psychic spam are huge rn, I don't feel that Bisharp should ever get out of C+. Heatran is also running Will-o-wisp a lot more now which is another thing that goes against Bisharp.

It may be threatning under the right conditions, but it needs a 50/50 to win or hax to win. Keep it in C+.

Your replays weren’t that good at advocating a Bisharp rise. It really didn’t do that much. The first replay was ok but you got lucky with the flinch, Zapdos somehow not parahaxing your Bisharp after so many Knock Offs, and you got lucky again with sucker punch mindgames. The second replay was just you sding on a choice locked Zone and knocking it out but dying after when you had some misleading information with “6-0ing a balance team”. So now your argument does sound like a bunch of theorymonning against top player’s teams. Bisharp was only really usable in webs offense but that playstyle is pretty dead rn. Bisharp should also be able to come in on defoggers until you realize that most of them convienantly have something that can deal with Bisharp. Zygarde’s (aka the hell worm) and Heatran’s omnipresence really hurt this mon too. Bisharp is way too reliant on Sucker Punch to rack up KOs and that can easily be abused by your opponent. Bisharp is fine where it’s at. It’s heavily dependent on matchups but it at least its niche is better over the mons below it.

I really don’t want to be a minimod, but if you’re going to post replays please show the mon performing its niche effectively instead of it just hardly doing anything. I hate it when someone has a nom and then their replay is just the mon sweeping some goofy low ladder team, or it just being in the back for the majority of the battle just for it to be dissapointing when it’s sent out. Now I know I haven’t made the best posts on this thread (Pelipper nom was just terrible looking back at it), but I would never post a replay unless I’m certain that it’s representing the mon and really elaborating on its niche. Replays are
meant to give us a picture of how potentially dangerous a mon can be. They should not be full of mediocrity. Sorry for the rant, but it’s rare to see a good replay these days.

...
you guys realize that in the second replay, bisharp only stopped where it did because I lost the 50/50? If I got it correctly and I sucker punch'd kartana, I won the game. That's not theorymonning, thats exploring possibilities in an actual match. If bisharp got the 50/50 correctly, there literally was no counterplay possible from the opposing team.

That's kind of the point i'm trying to make: yes, it's reliant on winning 50/50s, but these guesses are heavily favored for the user of Bisharp because they have 8 sucker punches, or they have 8 chances to win a 50/50, where as the opponent needs to get 8 correctly to get past bish. It's not something that's "easily abused," it's incredibly risky to try and take advantage of bisharp to dodge the sucker because you might be eating a +2 ada knock instead. And when you do get it right, you are really effective

As for the whole zygarde setting up BS
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 415-489 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's the damage vs sub dd. Zygarde is obviously much trickier to deal with because it lives a +2 sucker and kills with thousand arrows, but again, if you can chip it into range of sucker with hazards/teammates, then you can still put zygarde on the back foot, just like you can with any other mon.

I have no idea how hazard stacking is a "dead playstyle," that's implying that spikes have gotten worse or something when they're still great as hell.
Bisharp did not need to take advantage of a defog to be a threat in that second replay, and would've destroyed that team the second it got up an SD.

It's absolutely stupid to rank a mon like this alongside completely outclassed and unusable garbage like mega manectric and thundy-i or just awful mons in general like mimikyu.

But sure, if neither of you are capable of analyzing a team for pokemon it is weak to, and if you believe that it's "theorymonning" if there isn't replay evidence of it, then I will try to find more replays.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

...
you guys realize that in the second replay, bisharp only stopped where it did because I lost the 50/50? If I got it correctly and I sucker punch'd kartana, I won the game. That's not theorymonning, thats exploring possibilities in an actual match. If bisharp got the 50/50 correctly, there literally was no counterplay possible from the opposing team.

That's kind of the point i'm trying to make: yes, it's reliant on winning 50/50s, but these guesses are heavily favored for the user of Bisharp because they have 8 sucker punches, or they have 8 chances to win a 50/50, where as the opponent needs to get 8 correctly to get past bish. It's not something that's "easily abused," it's incredibly risky to try and take advantage of bisharp to dodge the sucker because you might be eating a +2 ada knock instead. And when you do get it right, you are really effective

As for the whole zygarde setting up BS
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 415-489 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's the damage vs sub dd. Zygarde is obviously much trickier to deal with because it lives a +2 sucker and kills with thousand arrows, but again, if you can chip it into range of sucker with hazards/teammates, then you can still put zygarde on the back foot, just like you can with any other mon.

I have no idea how hazard stacking is a "dead playstyle," that's implying that spikes have gotten worse or something when they're still great as hell.
Bisharp did not need to take advantage of a defog to be a threat in that second replay, and would've destroyed that team the second it got up an SD.

It's absolutely stupid to rank a mon like this alongside completely outclassed and unusable garbage like mega manectric and thundy-i or just awful mons in general like mimikyu.

You do have a point there, and I do find myself agreeing with you now. But I still feel that Bisharp is still much worse than Amoongus, Jirachi, Hippowdon and Fini. But much better than mons Like mimikyu and Thundy, either rise up bisharp and the mons I mentioned or drop some of the mons in C+ that I mentioned because currently I don't think either places represent Bisharp's viability.

 

[MFJK]

I'll try and give my thoughts on the nominations that have been posted lately but for now I just wanted to make a few noms:

→ B+
Charizard X is a very slep-on pokemon that is actualy a very anti-meta threat that deserves a rise imo. I think the metagame is changing in a way that Zard X appreciates with Balance being the most dominant playstyle and it wrecking through the most common Ferrothorn + Clefable cores. People have been using the 3 Atks set more as it is really good at wallbreaking but I think DD is just its best set. This game from Smogon Tour very well illustrates how underprepared teams are against this set and how threatening it can be with the right support. This set can take advantage of pokemons like Kartana, Tapu Bulu and even Landorus-T and Heatran before mega evolution and use them as set-up fodders, and then proceed to break the most common team structures at the moment.

→ B-
I am making this nomination again, which, I think, should be having more impact now since the metagame is changing in a way it really appreciates and it has been rising a bit in usage on the tournament scene as of late as a consequence. Just like it's X counterpart, it appreciates metagame trends such as the drop in usage of Toxapex and Mantine, the rise of trappers like Tyranitar and Weavile making it easier to check Mega Lati@s and to build around this pokemon, as well as the very high usage of Grass Types like Kartana and Tapu Bulu and cores like Ferrothorn + Clefable + Heatran which Zard-Y can take advantage of. Personally, I don't think Zard-Y should ever have dropped all the way to C+ rank and the Pex usage wasn't enough of a reason to justify that imo. I could easily see that mon rising to B in the future. There are plenty of examples of Zard-Y being effective in recent tours such as this game and this one from WCoP.

→ ranked
Pyukumuku is a key pokemon in the classic Trosko Stall that has seen a huge amount of success in both SPL and OST so I believe it being ranked in the viability ranking should reflect that. What it offers to Stall is a sturdy unaware user that is able to take strong hits but also to trap pokemons with Block and PP Stall them and/or kill them with Toxic + Soak which is what separates it from Quagsire. The Trosko Stall featuring Pyukumuku can be seen in action in this replay from SPL, as well as this more recent one from OST. The last one especially shows how dangerous Pyukumuku can be. As for its potential rank, I think somewhere between C and C- (C- most definitely) would be adequate.

As for other noms, I'll talk briefly about some in this post and make another post later. I agree with most of them, mainly Gliscor, Mega Lati@s, Mew, Zygarde and Weavile. For potential changes, I share Indigo's sentiment about Mega Alakazam and will probably talk about it in my post later. I also think pokemons like M-Pinsir, M-Diancie and Bulu (SD) could rise in the future. Also, does anyone think Ttar should go back to A+? It's been rising a lot in usage lately with Reuni and Mega Latis being so common and also offers insurance against pokemons like Tran and Tornadus-T. Both Band and Scarf are really good and synergize very well with common pokemons like Tornadus-T, Landorus-T and Heatran and is seen on various playstyles including BO and Balance. I wanna hear some thoughts from you guys. more coming.

 

[A]

...
you guys realize that in the second replay, bisharp only stopped where it did because I lost the 50/50? If I got it correctly and I sucker punch'd kartana, I won the game. That's not theorymonning, thats exploring possibilities in an actual match. If bisharp got the 50/50 correctly, there literally was no counterplay possible from the opposing team.

That's kind of the point i'm trying to make: yes, it's reliant on winning 50/50s, but these guesses are heavily favored for the user of Bisharp because they have 8 sucker punches, or they have 8 chances to win a 50/50, where as the opponent needs to get 8 correctly to get past bish. It's not something that's "easily abused," it's incredibly risky to try and take advantage of bisharp to dodge the sucker because you might be eating a +2 ada knock instead. And when you do get it right, you are really effective

As for the whole zygarde setting up BS
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 415-489 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's the damage vs sub dd. Zygarde is obviously much trickier to deal with because it lives a +2 sucker and kills with thousand arrows, but again, if you can chip it into range of sucker with hazards/teammates, then you can still put zygarde on the back foot, just like you can with any other mon.

I have no idea how hazard stacking is a "dead playstyle," that's implying that spikes have gotten worse or something when they're still great as hell.
Bisharp did not need to take advantage of a defog to be a threat in that second replay, and would've destroyed that team the second it got up an SD.

It's absolutely stupid to rank a mon like this alongside completely outclassed and unusable garbage like mega manectric and thundy-i or just awful mons in general like mimikyu.

But sure, if neither of you are capable of analyzing a team for pokemon it is weak to, and if you believe that it's "theorymonning" if there isn't replay evidence of it, then I will try to find more replays.

I definitely agree on the "don't sleep on Bisharp" thing here, ive also been messing around with jolly which dips a bit of power but can iron head and surprise an eager magearna down to size, as well as a handful of things.

Although I gotta disagree on the Thundurus being unusable garbage part.

Thundy-I is being super slept on imo, I think people just havent found the right set yet.
Thanks to best user ShinyUnown for helping me come up with and test this c:

Thundurus (M) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast

Fight Z HP Flying (yes dont laugh) is actually p solid rn bc of the prominence of specially defensive bulky grasses, thundy fodders them and since you're np, people think you're gonna tickle with HP Ice only to be obliterated. Fight Z lets you pummel through a variety of threats with ease. It's definitely not a perfect set as things like AV mage at high hp or Scarf Lando-T can pose problems, but it's a fine enough midrange breaker that can actually terrorize a lot of cores like most bulu / tran / clef, or squads where their electric resist = bulky grass (aka a lot). (you usually flex on mlatias that are cm stored variants too; things like gastro can be nuked with boosted fight z, watch out for recover, zyg loses to fight z etc)

 

[vso]

idt the current noms are very interesting so lets start something fun

Bisharp C+-->B- or higher

I think bish is a mon that is suuuper slept on. It's a pokemon that has extremely lopsided matchups, but can nonetheless all be worked around with the proper support. While pokemon like zygarde, timid magearna, hawlucha, Tapu lele, Tapu koko, and greninja are all annoying, they can all be worked around with support like spikes or good teammates.

On the other hand, there are teams that like to use balance cores like clef/mega lati@s/Scarf Lando-t/Torn-t/gastro/Heatran/Ferro/toxapex/Celesteela/mega scizor with offensive mons like kartana/tapu bulu/alakazam/tapu koko/protean gren chipped with spikes, and these teams get absolutely torn apart by bisharp. It can SD up vs passive stuff like ferro/clef/etc or take advantage of webs/defog and threaten common fat mons and common speed control. +2 adamant z-sucker punch will OHKO toxapex, celesteela, mega scizor, ferrothorn, skarmory, and pretty much anything else you want dead that doesn't resist, and I think bisharp definitely needs the z-move+adamant nature to be at its best.

I think it really speaks volumes to just look at the teams used in the USM stour 25 finals and look at how weak both are to bisharp. If the bulu is slower for any reason, all that u need is minor chip on steela/kart/lando, bish grabs an SD and can literally 6-0 soulwinds team. Blunder's team is a bit more difficult given you have to pick between pex/steela/tang to use the z-sucker, but honestly his team is weak to it too, and with the right 50/50s it can 6-0 here too.
So it's pretty safe to say bisharp takes advantage of current teambuilding and metagame trends

Enuf theorymonning tho here's some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760156559 - this is a fun one of poppin stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760171946 - this one is more of a textbook example of bish being able to 6-0 a balance team

At the end of the day, bish needs a lot of help and you can still go wrong if you lose a 50/50, but this mon is still way too threatening to be in C+ imo. It's more at home alongside pokemon with actual respectable niches like mega heracross, tapu fini, jirachi, amoong, and hippo.

While I can see why you would use Bisharp, I do not think it is worthy of a rise. It has rough matchups against every non-balance team because of losing to common pokemon on offense such as roost tapu koko, protean greninja, ash greninja, tapu lele, swords dance bulu, and sub zygarde just to name a few. It also uses a z move and only fits on hazard stacking/sticky webs so it is a fairly niche mon overall.

It is also not as good of a balance breaker as you claim it is. It needs to take chip damage if it wants to set up on Ferrothorn or Clefable. This keeps it in range of common balance mons like Swords Dance Gliscor, and Bulky Zapdos. It also loses to common Substitute users like Metronome Mamoswine and Zygarde which can be seen on balance. It loses to most unchipped Zygarde sets too. In addition, rising sets such as Will O Wisp Heatran and Heat Wave helmet torn keep immense pressure on it. Ash-Greninja, Roost Tapu Koko, Hawlucha, Keldeo, Protean Greninja, Shift Gear Magearna, Swords Dance Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Lele can all be seen on balance builds and all prevent Bisharp from truly sweeping. Even a matchup where Bisharp is amazing, it can lose to a competent player who scouts for the Z Move and minimizes its set up oppurtunities. While you accepted that it is a risky pokemon, if it is your sole balance breaker, you can be at a major disadvantage and a competent player can beat it in a difficult matchup.

The pokemon faces immense competition from Mega Mawile. Mega Mawile is far more consistent than Bisharp, and even in a hard matchup, Mega Mawile can use its far higher initial breaking power. Mawile also helps a lot against stall, does not use a z move, does not struggle immensely against offensive teams, and can prove its worth in a non-super good matchup while winning in a good one. It has far more set up oppurtunities thanks to its better bulk, typing, and intimidate as a pre mega ability allows it to set up on locked greninja, CB Kartana, Clefable, Tangrowth, and much more. Bisharp does not need chip against Landorus-T and can blow past Celesteela and Curse Scizor if it predicts right, though.

Saying that, I feel as if Bisharp does not deserve to be ranked with the likes of Mega Heracross, Tapu Fini, and Amoonguss which are far more consistent and are not nearly as shadowed. It should be ranked with the likes of pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y, which is also a pokemon that matchup fishes, but can somewhat alleviate poor matchups with Magma Storm Heatran support.

----> A
Magearna has taken a few hits over the last couple of months. Assault Vest Magearna is the main set that has been hurt as it is nowehere near as consistent as it was. In a metagame where Zygarde and Heatran are borderline broken and Gastrodon is as good as ever, which saps magearna's greatest asset in gaining momentum, and therefore Vest Magearna struggles to justify itself over a grass type. While it is a solidder Lele check, it can get whittled down extremely quickly and therefore is only really used on offense. Offense is considerably worse when balance is the best archetype in SM OU by far and Magearna has been used less for Heatran on Medicham offense because Magearna's job of gaining momentum has become much harder. Magearna is forced to run Ice Beam to not lose to Gliscor, which removes most of its offensive utility and prevents it from pressuring breakers like Medicham and Kyurem-Black. It is also strapped for slots which prevents it from carrying Energy Ball to hit Gastrodon as without Iron Head it loses to CM Lele and cannot remotely pressure fairies in general and even Pokemon such as Weavile and Tyranitar. HP Fire is a move that simply should never be replaced with Ferro and Scizor stacking up hazards or boosting up on it freely.

Shift Gear Magearna, while still a good set deserves the same rank as good Pokemon such as Gliscor(will be A probably) and of Protean Greninja and not the rank of Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Zygarde, and Ash-Greninja as Shift Gear Magearna needs Fairum CM to beat Gastrodon and loses to Toxapex, while needs to use the Z Move at the right time. If it calm minds onto a Heatran, Zygarde or Gliscor switch, predicting Gastrodon, it loses momentum quickly. It needs chip on common mons like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Celesteela to beat them. It is also reliant on hitting Focus Blast's to steamroll when considerably ahead. That said, Shift Gear Magearna is an extremely potent wincon which can beat many unprepared teams with the right set, but it is not an A+ rank set.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

----> A
Magearna has taken a few hits over the last couple of months. Assault Vest Magearna is the main set that has been hurt as it is nowehere near as consistent as it was. In a metagame where Zygarde and Heatran are borderline broken and Gastrodon is as good as ever, which saps magearna's greatest asset in gaining momentum, and therefore Vest Magearna struggles to justify itself over a grass type. While it is a solidder Lele check, it can get whittled down extremely quickly and therefore is only really used on offense. Offense is considerably worse when balance is the best archetype in SM OU by far and Magearna has been used less for Heatran on Medicham offense because Magearna's job of gaining momentum has become much harder. Magearna is forced to run Ice Beam to not lose to Gliscor, which removes most of its offensive utility and prevents it from pressuring breakers like Medicham and Kyurem-Black. It is also strapped for slots which prevents it from carrying Energy Ball to hit Gastrodon as without Iron Head it loses to CM Lele and cannot remotely pressure fairies in general and even Pokemon such as Weavile and Tyranitar. HP Fire is a move that simply should never be replaced with Ferro and Scizor stacking up hazards or boosting up on it freely.

Shift Gear Magearna, while still a good set deserves the same rank as good Pokemon such as Gliscor(will be A probably) and of Protean Greninja and not the rank of Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Zygarde, and Ash-Greninja as Shift Gear Magearna needs Fairum CM to beat Gastrodon and loses to Toxapex, while needs to use the Z Move at the right time. If it calm minds onto a Heatran, Zygarde or Gliscor switch, predicting Gastrodon, it loses momentum quickly. It needs chip on common mons like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Celesteela to beat them. It is also reliant on hitting Focus Blast's to steamroll when considerably ahead. That said, Shift Gear Magearna is an extremely potent wincon which can beat many unprepared teams with the right set, but it is not an A+ rank set.

My thoughts on this Magearna ranking: if Zygarde and Clef remain in A+ despite being world beaters, magearna looks out of place due to current metagame trends. However, if they move up, it makes sense to keep mag in A+. I definitely do see your reasoning with magearna dropping however, and it definitely isn't the "stick on any team to give the team a SpD pivot" it used to be.

 

[Nuked]

---> A-

I think Tangrowth is currently misplaced in B+ when it should be in A-.

- I wanted to start this off by saying that I don't think there's been any particular metagame trends going well for Tangrowth (besides AV bulu falling out of favor for specially defensive SD, giving Tangrowth a little less competition) but I think that, with the amount it gets used over Bulu and the success it has on most teams it's on, it doesn't deserve to be two subranks below its main competition at the current moment.

- I'd agree that Bulu is better overall than Tangrowth but Tangrowth has quite a few reasons to be used over Bulu and it works great on all the teams that it's on. In particular, Tangrowth works really well with Tornadus-T because of the Regenerator core they form, and it also works better with Toxapex than Tapu Bulu would. This is enough, in my opinion, to rise Tangrowth so it's only one rank below Bulu.

- I know usage isn't the best argument, but I wanted to point out that Tangrowth has more usage (in the most recent Smogon Tour season) than every other B+ and even the other A- Pokemon (with the exceptions of Zapdos, Mega Latios, and Mega Latias, and the latter two are likely rising in the next slate anyways). For this reason, I just don't think that a Pokemon with as much of a place in the metagame and with as many uses as Tangrowth should be in a rank like B+, and these qualities reflect something closer to A- or even A in my opinion.

- I'd like to say that, at the time of Tangrowth dropping (iirc somewhere around December), one of the big reasons for it was because Pokemon like Mega Charizard Y, Kyurem-B, and Mega Pinsir were being used significantly more than they currently are to combat the big Tangrowth spam, and now that the usage of these three Pokemon have gone down I think it's appropriate to rise Tangrowth again, as the metagame isn't as against it as it was when it dropped from A- to B+ initially.

- Lastly, Tangrowth has a better matchup against Heatran than Tapu Bulu does, and with the amount of Heatran usage right now and how good it is, that's a HUGE boon over Bulu and just another reason for it to rise.

 

[Mellow]

---> A-

I think Tangrowth is currently misplaced in B+ when it should be in A-.

- I wanted to start this off by saying that I don't think there's been any particular metagame trends going well for Tangrowth (besides AV bulu falling out of favor for specially defensive SD, giving Tangrowth a little less competition) but I think that, with the amount it gets used over Bulu and the success it has on most teams it's on, it doesn't deserve to be two subranks below its main competition at the current moment.

- I'd agree that Bulu is better overall than Tangrowth but Tangrowth has quite a few reasons to be used over Bulu and it works great on all the teams that it's on. In particular, Tangrowth works really well with Tornadus-T because of the Regenerator core they form, and it also works better with Toxapex than Tapu Bulu would. This is enough, in my opinion, to rise Tangrowth so it's only one rank below Bulu.

- I know usage isn't the best argument, but I wanted to point out that Tangrowth has more usage (in the most recent Smogon Tour season) than every other B+ and even the other A- Pokemon (with the exceptions of Zapdos, Mega Latios, and Mega Latias, and the latter two are likely rising in the next slate anyways). For this reason, I just don't think that a Pokemon with as much of a place in the metagame and with as many uses as Tangrowth should be in a rank like B+, and these qualities reflect something closer to A- or even A in my opinion.

- I'd like to say that, at the time of Tangrowth dropping (iirc somewhere around December), one of the big reasons for it was because Pokemon like Mega Charizard Y, Kyurem-B, and Mega Pinsir were being used significantly more than they currently are to combat the big Tangrowth spam, and now that the usage of these three Pokemon have gone down I think it's appropriate to rise Tangrowth again, as the metagame isn't as against it as it was when it dropped from A- to B+ initially.

- Lastly, Tangrowth has a better matchup against Heatran than Tapu Bulu does, and with the amount of Heatran usage right now and how good it is, that's a HUGE boon over Bulu and just another reason for it to rise.

I'd also add that thanks to people realising Dragonium Zygarde is a shit set, it is now a very consistent counter to Zygarde, unlike Bulu due to Iron Tail. Also, Bulu replaced a lot of Tangrowths due to Lele's prevalence as a breaker, but now it isn't used as much as it was back then, so that downside is mitigated a little.
I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but having adopted certain building habits like replacing Toxapex with Gastrodon and Tangrowth with Bulu on a lot of teams, I forgot how good Regenerator as an ability actually is. I know you're not supposed to list obvious qualities like that but I just wanted to note it.
Anyway, I agree with a Tangrowth rise.

 

[Srn]

While I can see why you would use Bisharp, I do not think it is worthy of a rise. It has rough matchups against every non-balance team because of losing to common pokemon on offense such as roost tapu koko, protean greninja, ash greninja, tapu lele, swords dance bulu, and sub zygarde just to name a few. It also uses a z move and only fits on hazard stacking/sticky webs so it is a fairly niche mon overall.

It is also not as good of a balance breaker as you claim it is. It needs to take chip damage if it wants to set up on Ferrothorn or Clefable. This keeps it in range of common balance mons like Swords Dance Gliscor, and Bulky Zapdos. It also loses to common Substitute users like Metronome Mamoswine and Zygarde which can be seen on balance. It loses to most unchipped Zygarde sets too. In addition, rising sets such as Will O Wisp Heatran and Heat Wave helmet torn keep immense pressure on it. Ash-Greninja, Roost Tapu Koko, Hawlucha, Keldeo, Protean Greninja, Shift Gear Magearna, Swords Dance Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Lele can all be seen on balance builds and all prevent Bisharp from truly sweeping. Even a matchup where Bisharp is amazing, it can lose to a competent player who scouts for the Z Move and minimizes its set up oppurtunities. While you accepted that it is a risky pokemon, if it is your sole balance breaker, you can be at a major disadvantage and a competent player can beat it in a difficult matchup.

The pokemon faces immense competition from Mega Mawile. Mega Mawile is far more consistent than Bisharp, and even in a hard matchup, Mega Mawile can use its far higher initial breaking power. Mawile also helps a lot against stall, does not use a z move, does not struggle immensely against offensive teams, and can prove its worth in a non-super good matchup while winning in a good one. It has far more set up oppurtunities thanks to its better bulk, typing, and intimidate as a pre mega ability allows it to set up on locked greninja, CB Kartana, Clefable, Tangrowth, and much more. Bisharp does not need chip against Landorus-T and can blow past Celesteela and Curse Scizor if it predicts right, though.

Saying that, I feel as if Bisharp does not deserve to be ranked with the likes of Mega Heracross, Tapu Fini, and Amoonguss which are far more consistent and are not nearly as shadowed. It should be ranked with the likes of pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y, which is also a pokemon that matchup fishes, but can somewhat alleviate poor matchups with Magma Storm Heatran support.

----> A
Magearna has taken a few hits over the last couple of months. Assault Vest Magearna is the main set that has been hurt as it is nowehere near as consistent as it was. In a metagame where Zygarde and Heatran are borderline broken and Gastrodon is as good as ever, which saps magearna's greatest asset in gaining momentum, and therefore Vest Magearna struggles to justify itself over a grass type. While it is a solidder Lele check, it can get whittled down extremely quickly and therefore is only really used on offense. Offense is considerably worse when balance is the best archetype in SM OU by far and Magearna has been used less for Heatran on Medicham offense because Magearna's job of gaining momentum has become much harder. Magearna is forced to run Ice Beam to not lose to Gliscor, which removes most of its offensive utility and prevents it from pressuring breakers like Medicham and Kyurem-Black. It is also strapped for slots which prevents it from carrying Energy Ball to hit Gastrodon as without Iron Head it loses to CM Lele and cannot remotely pressure fairies in general and even Pokemon such as Weavile and Tyranitar. HP Fire is a move that simply should never be replaced with Ferro and Scizor stacking up hazards or boosting up on it freely.

Shift Gear Magearna, while still a good set deserves the same rank as good Pokemon such as Gliscor(will be A probably) and of Protean Greninja and not the rank of Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Zygarde, and Ash-Greninja as Shift Gear Magearna needs Fairum CM to beat Gastrodon and loses to Toxapex, while needs to use the Z Move at the right time. If it calm minds onto a Heatran, Zygarde or Gliscor switch, predicting Gastrodon, it loses momentum quickly. It needs chip on common mons like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Celesteela to beat them. It is also reliant on hitting Focus Blast's to steamroll when considerably ahead. That said, Shift Gear Magearna is an extremely potent wincon which can beat many unprepared teams with the right set, but it is not an A+ rank set.

I can safely say I disagree with most of what is in this post.

but lets take it one step at a time: First off, your comparison with mega mawile

you say that mega mawile has is "far more consistent than bisharp," and yet you say that bisharp struggles against all these common pokemon

It has rough matchups against every non-balance team because of losing to common pokemon on offense such as roost tapu koko, protean greninja, ash greninja, tapu lele, swords dance bulu, and sub zygarde just to name a few.

How is mega mawile any different? Isn't the Play rough/SD/sucker punch/knock off set that supposedly outclasses bisharp also have trouble with all of these pokemon commonly found on offense? How is bisharp much different, aside from dying to a speedy superpower bulu? And even then mega mawile is far from safe considering things like cb wood hammer or z-wood hammer, getting killed by both of those after just ~20% chip.

I mean almost every flaw you call bisharp out on also applies to mega mawile (gets pressured by wisp tran, zapdos, gliscor) and almost every boon you say mawile has also applies to bisharp (sets up on choice locked gren, cb kartana (just not locked into fighting move), clefable, tangrowth, and "much more.")

Not to mention Bisharp has this fantastic ability called DEFIANT, which mega mawile does not! This ability can punish defog, punish webs, and even punish smaller things like moonblast, making it a very real risk to even attack with clefable when bisharp is on the opposing side (funny that you mention bisharp must take chip damage to set up on clefable as well) This clearly separates bisharp from mawile, and it is not as outclassed as you believe it to be. That is WHY it fits into hazard stacking/webs teams in the first place as you so eloquently pointed out.

And finally, Bisharp is being nommed up to B-, and I honestly think mons like tapu fini, jirachi, and hippo belong in B just for the rankings to be consistent. Mega Mawile is A-. That is a huge difference, and obviously bisharp is worse than mega mawile. Bisharp is just fine in B- for being a high risk, high reward pokemon that fits into webs and hazard setting styles.

Speaking of which:

While you accepted that it is a risky pokemon, if it is your sole balance breaker, you can be at a major disadvantage and a competent player can beat it in a difficult matchup.

only fits on hazard stacking/sticky webs so it is a fairly niche mon overall.

Well yeah, no shit. hazard stack/webs teams are going to have more balance breakers than just bisharp.
Judging from all these points you made, especially the last one, I just feel like you've never actually built with and used bisharp before.


So now to move on to why your magearna nomination is flawed as well.

I first of all am confused as to why the rise in zygarde and heatran (which have had consistent usage for months now, no real rise here) is suddenly a bad thing for magearna. None of these pokemon are safe switch-ins, hell, neither of these are even gauranteed to 1v1 magearna. Non-cb zygarde or groundium-z wont ohko with thousand arrows and will die to offensive ice beam, and Max hp/max speed heatran won't kill magearna after rocks gauranteed and will die to z-focus blast.

But more importantly, this little gem

and therefore Vest Magearna struggles to justify itself over a grass type.

How the hell is vest magearna doing what grass types are used to do? Aside from baaarely ferrothorn, no other grass type is put on a team to check pokemon like mega alakazam, mega latios, tapu lele, protean greninja, ash greninja, kyu-b, torn-t, weavile and probably more shit i'm missing all in one slot. From a teambuilding perspective, it is honestly ludicrous to think that av magearna faces competition from grass types.

The rest of your post goes into detail about how magearna is supposedly strapped for moveslots, and you explain that magearna needs all of these moves to hit all of these potential checks. But what confuses me is why is this a bad thing?

I mean, isn't it a very, very good thing that magearna can pick and choose what it beats? Why are you punishing magearna for its versatility? It's not as if it REQUIRES all 7 moves it could run in order to properly function, it can bring fleur cannon/volt switch for AV sets and leave the last 2 open for whatever the team can't do. I think that you're looking at this in a vacuum, and you're failing to notice that any supposed trouble or weaknesses that magearna has can simply be moved around by whatever moves it decides to run. The fact of the matter is that magearna can work around almost all of its supposed checks, and only very niche pokemon like jirachi can really claim to wall magearna, and thats not even stopping volt switch.

You also mention how it needs chip on common mons like ferro, tran, and steela, but yeah, what cleaner doesn't? Do you expect ANY late-game sweeper to be blasting through its checks at full health? Even your precious zygarde needs chip on common mons like clefable, lando-t, tapu bulu, and tangrowth to be cleanly sweeping with standard dd z-move sets, and WP dd doesn't break past other checks like healthy mew or curse mzor.

Yes, zygarde doesn't have any counters either, but thats because it can CHOOOOOSE what it wants to beat!! Much like Shift Gear Magearna!! You dont see people shitting on subtoxic zygarde for failing to break through clefable, because they also know that WP destroys it! You dont see people calling dd z-thousand arrows zygarde ass for getting stopped by av tangrowth because they also know that dd z-outrage blows that same mon the fuck back. So why are you saying SG magearna is bad? So what if heatran beats calm mind? Z-focus blast kills that! So what if pex walls Z-fairium, Z-tbolt kills that! Even chansey can be overwhelmed by some heat sets like cm+pain split, because if that's what you want magearna to do, then fuck it, it CAN.

The ability to pick and choose which pokemon checks you and have your team handle the rest is what being versatile IS. And I think it's absolutely silly to be punishing magearna for that.

Keep magearna A+, and raise Bisharp to B-
Apologies for the essay

 

[mushamu]

--> A+
The surge of new defoggers in US/UM gave many more pokemon more viability, and Tornadus-Therain is no exception. Torandus has stabilized its place in this metagame in the tier as a reliable defogger and pivot, and different sets such as Rocky helmet Tornadus have been used to more reliably check prominent threats in the metagame such as Kartana, while the z hurricane set threatens many other threats with a nuke. Not many pokemon enjoy taking a knock off, and Tornadus-therain is a good user of the move being able to switch into the field and force switches with the dangers of Z Hurricane. Pokemon like Magearna, Celesteela, Heatran, or even Tapu Koko sometimes don't like getting their items removed, as losing AV on Magearna weakens it for late game, knocking off Celesteela and Heatran's Leftovers removes their passiver recovery and knocking off Choice Specs or Shuca Berry on Koko causes it to lose a lot of power and the latter causes it to play around more carefully around threats like Landorus-Therain. Tornadus Therain can also carry moves like Heat Wave, Superpower and Taunt and items like Assault Vest or Life Orb to fit the needs of its team.

Tornadus is also extremely splashable, being able to fit on many many variants of balance and even offensive builds outlines its presence as a defogger in the tier. Although I can understand the dominance of Pokemon like Tapu Koko that threaten it in the tier holds it back from being A+ material, things are definitely looking good for for this Pokemon right now.

(shoutouts shinyunown for giving me the idea to write this nom)

I agree with Srn that Bisharp is something thats slept on; it's terrifying if it gets up a SD and Z Sucker Punch is an amazingly powerful move that can wallbreak effectively when boosted and furthermore support its sweep. Srn touched up most of the details about a potential Bisharp rise but its niche in the metagame as a setup sweeper is better presented in the B- rank along with Pokemon like Terrakion & Tapu Fini.

Tangrowth is also probably due for a rise seeing as some of the Pokemon that it originally had trouble with and caused it to drop have been dying down recently, Mega Pinsir, Kyurem B, Mega Charizard Y etc, and its one of the few reliable checks / counters to zygarde with HP Ice, a pokemon thats really good atm (if not ddance dragonium). Cool bulky grass that I wouldn't mind rising to A-

These two are both due for rises. Mega Latios is seeing successful tournament usage and a reliable Heatran answer giving it a lot of leverage, and Mega Latias is great as of right now due to bulky offense / balance being extremely good playstyles that Mega Latias dwells on.
A ranks suits both of them fine.

 

[blastablasta]

Zapdos is more viable than ever, with Kartana being used widely, and stall being everywhere, if anything it should rise to A. Checks a giant portion of the metagame and is good against all playstyles. It keeps hazards down against most of the prominent users using pressure to ensure hazards never stay up. Zapdos is currently the best Kartana counter in the game, and beats pretty much every set, barring normalium.

 

[teachable]

Alrigeht I know a lotta people have been waiting for this:

Nominating Doublade for C+. For starters, Doublade completely outclasses the entire C tier in terms of usability and just overall having a larger niche than crap like M-Gallade or Uxie and being at least as viable as stuff like Manectric-Mega/Shuckle/Alolawak; this isn't exactly an argument for viability though, I get that this is a bad argument so just take this as my vent.
Doublade is usable on just about any play style (seriously, bust out that builder) given its ability to check/counter stuff that is kinda all over the place right now like Medicham/Chansey/Kartana/Bulu/Mega Pinsir/Clefable/Jirachi/Mega Hera (and soft checking stuff like Lele or Mimikyu) while still not freely inviting in a whole lot thanks to its 110 attack stat w/ Sacred Sword to nail Tran/TTar/Ferrothorn/Ash-Ninja or (Bless Fucking No Guard) Toxic for stuff like Tangrowth/Landorus/Zapdos and has Pursuit to make sure shit it actually checks/counters like Mega Cham/Jirachi isn't getting out of there for free. Further, Swords Dance/Sneak means you can actually use Doublade as a win con or revenge killer in addition to the utility it provides. Hell, it even spin blocks Excadrill (and Avalugg xD) for some additional utility, letting you slot it onto some of your wacky HO builds that want to be able to not lose to opposing Luchas. Its faults are definitely apparent (lack of recovery, Knock vulnerability, walled by Pex, No SpDef) but the metagame is (IMO) in a position where dealing with this stuff doesn't necessitate that you try incredibly hard to accommodate for these weaknesses.

I can write more but it'd be better if I'm actually replying to people, here's some replays to help my case.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-734943993 - Doublade is able to pressure Latios + Bulu, eventually stopping Zygarde from setting up so I can win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733817852 - Doublade counters Mega Pinsir and punishes a Bisharp trying to setup on it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-755900971 - Doublade checks and Pursuit traps a Mega Medicham, which otherwise kinda shit all over this team.

<- Most of the replays in this video ty. aim

I don't think people actually want the teams so I'll save y'all

 

[BlueLobster]

Alrigeht I know a lotta people have been waiting for this:

Nominating Doublade for C+. For starters, Doublade completely outclasses the entire C tier in terms of usability and just overall having a larger niche than crap like M-Gallade or Uxie and being at least as viable as stuff like Manectric-Mega/Shuckle/Alolawak; this isn't exactly an argument for viability though, I get that this is a bad argument so just take this as my vent.
Doublade is usable on just about any play style (seriously, bust out that builder) given its ability to check/counter stuff that is kinda all over the place right now like Medicham/Chansey/Kartana/Bulu/Mega Pinsir/Clefable/Jirachi/Mega Hera (and soft checking stuff like Lele or Mimikyu) while still not freely inviting in a whole lot thanks to its 110 attack stat w/ Sacred Sword to nail Tran/TTar/Ferrothorn/Ash-Ninja or (Bless Fucking No Guard) Toxic for stuff like Tangrowth/Landorus/Zapdos and has Pursuit to make sure shit it actually checks/counters like Mega Cham/Jirachi isn't getting out of there for free. Further, Swords Dance/Sneak means you can actually use Doublade as a win con or revenge killer in addition to the utility it provides. Hell, it even spin blocks Excadrill (and Avalugg xD) for some additional utility, letting you slot it onto some of your wacky HO builds that want to be able to not lose to opposing Luchas. Its faults are definitely apparent (lack of recovery, Knock vulnerability, walled by Pex, No SpDef) but the metagame is (IMO) in a position where dealing with this stuff doesn't necessitate that you try incredibly hard to accommodate for these weaknesses.

I can write more but it'd be better if I'm actually replying to people, here's some replays to help my case.

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-734943993 - Doublade is able to pressure Latios + Bulu, eventually stopping Zygarde from setting up so I can win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-733817852 - Doublade counters Mega Pinsir and punishes a Bisharp trying to setup on it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-755900971 - Doublade checks and Pursuit traps a Mega Medicham, which otherwise kinda shit all over this team.

<- Most of the replays in this video ty. aim

I don't think people actually want the teams so I'll save y'all

I'm not completely against Doublade being ranked, but there is no way it should be C+ or "outclasses" the entirety of C. C rank contains ninetales-a, cresselia, uxie, crawdaunt etc that are literally the faces of their playstyles, as well as other versatile and underrated mons like nidoking and thundy-t (who I think should rise but that's for another time). To say Doublade outclasses them is a ridiculous comment, and even letting that slide I wouldn't say it's better than most of them. The thing about Doublade is, due to the complete lack of any recovery, it is hard for it to check all of the mons you mentioned as it's going to be worn down extremely quickly. I disagree with the statement it can fit on any playstyle, it is mostly suited to balance with wish support and even then you are going to struggle to justify it over another steel with more utility (such as a form of hazard, or uturn, Defog, or anything else this thing can't do). You mentioned it spinblocks Exca, which it doesn't cause it's ground weak (maybe in grassy terrain or if you're willing to risk this dying to keep hazards up), and also exca is getting rarer by the second anyway (to the point where I don't run a spinblocker on webs and do fine), so the teams Doublade will find itself on are fine without a spinblocker anyway. Also be careful when checking kart/clef with this as both can run knock which will essentially make this useless as well as doing a lot of damage in karts case. You also seem to think this thing has a shitton more moveslot than it does, it needs stabs + sacred sword really, so you have 1 slot to pick between pursuit/SD/toxic/sneak (unless you drop claw for sneak I guess). It certainly has niches, and I think it deserves C- or C at a stretch, but you're massively overhyping it, and while I agree it's more viable than trash like Nihilego, it's certainly not deserving of C+.

 

[teachable]

I normally hate doing this shit but I feel it is necessary here to accurately reply to what was said so

I'm not completely against Doublade being ranked, but there is no way it should be C+ or "outclasses" the entirety of C. C rank contains ninetales-a, cresselia, uxie, crawdaunt etc that are literally the faces of their playstyles, as well as other versatile and underrated mons like nidoking and thundy-t (who I think should rise but that's for another time). To say Doublade outclasses them is a ridiculous comment, and even letting that slide I wouldn't say it's better than most of them.

I should clarify my wording since there was obviously more confusion here. It isn't to say Doublade does its niche better than these Pokemon (as I agree; Cress/Crawdaunt/Uxie/AlolaTales are faces of their playstyle) but rather just that it has a larger overall niche/usability on more styles which it seems like we're in agreement over.

The thing about Doublade is, due to the complete lack of any recovery, it is hard for it to check all of the mons you mentioned as it's going to be worn down extremely quickly.

This is valid but Bulu is Absolutely Everytwhere (which you counter unless Sub Bulk Up) with Tran being obnoxiously good, having a Bulu check that doesn't invite in Tran is nutty for that reason also. Additionally, the most important mon you check in Cham is trapped w/ Pursuit should you decide you're that weak to it, so it doesn't have to stay healthy for long to completely accomplish its job.

I disagree with the statement it can fit on any playstyle, it is mostly suited to balance with wish support and even then you are going to struggle to justify it over another steel with more utility (such as a form of hazard, or uturn, Defog, or anything else this thing can't do). You mentioned it spinblocks Exca, which it doesn't cause it's ground weak (maybe in grassy terrain or if you're willing to risk this dying to keep hazards up), and also exca is getting rarer by the second anyway (to the point where I don't run a spinblocker on webs and do fine), so the teams Doublade will find itself on are fine without a spinblocker anyway.

I agree that it is best on balance, but Doublade stall is viable considering you've got good Knock switchins and a good Scizor check, it prevents you from getting blown away by *any* Medi set and traps it with Pursuit to make sure it'll *never* be an issue at any point. Doublade HO has also worked for me, you pressure/weaken some key Pokemon like Landorus/Tangrowth/Clef that can very easily set up for a Lucha or Zygarde sweep or whatnot, and sometimes Doublade forcing your opponent to EQ over Spinning means Doublade has effectively done its job. I agree most teams are fine without a spinner, as I meant to imply that in the off case you face an Excadrill it provides additional utility that something like Mimikyu can't do. I use this spread which gives you a decent chance of beating Excadrill, as you only need to land one Sacred Sword to prevent it from having done its job (and you force it into a bad 50-50 with Sneak/Suit).

spread + cald

teachable (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 84 Def / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Pursuit

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Eviolite Doublade: 150-176 (46.5 - 54.6%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO

Also be careful when checking kart/clef with this as both can run knock which will essentially make this useless as well as doing a lot of damage in karts case.

I agree with this, in addition to the fact that Clefable can run Flamethrower. Thankfully this is where your partners come in, Scarf Kartana (the most likely set to run Knock Off) being pressured to click Knock Off or Smart Strike rather than spamming Leaf Blade means Doublade is already relieving a lot of pressure from your team and you should be pairing Doublade with a Knock Off switch in anyways (which my point of the meta being good for it RN comes up here, as its not hard at all to slow one of these into your team just accidentally.

You also seem to think this thing has a shitton more moveslot than it does, it needs stabs + sacred sword really, so you have 1 slot to pick between pursuit/SD/toxic/sneak (unless you drop claw for sneak I guess).

I very much agree with this, if you could fit what you needed on one set it'd easily be B material IMO, but it has some serious 4mss. However, in spite of this it really is incredibly customizable for what your team needs; if you have good Lele checks you can opt to forego non-priority STAB for Swords Dance, if you don't have an issue with Medicham you can completely forego Pursuit, if you don't struggle with Heatran(lol)/TTar/Bisharp you can drop Sacred Sword for Claw. Ultimately the fact that you have 5 other Pokemon to work with and you should be making your team solid against these Pokemon anyways, Doublade lets you really customize its moveset to be a consistent threat (on the switch in) for whatever *does* counter it (outside of like Skarm).

It certainly has niches, and I think it deserves C- or C at a stretch, but you're massively overhyping it, and while I agree it's more viable than trash like Nihilego, it's certainly not deserving of C+.

If I was overhyping it I'd be nomming it for B <3, thank you for a response though I'm glad I got to elaborate.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

I agree with both of these mons rising. Charizard X is very slept on atm. Teams lacking Scarfers is becoming increasingly common in the metagame, and DD Charizard X takes perfect advantage of this. People aren’t packing very good defensive answers either, with many relying on Heatran or Zygarde, neither of which very good answers to Charizard X. The Roost 3 Attacks set is also very good right now, for much of the same reasons as the DD set. Charizard Y is also great atm since many people are still spamming Gastro over Pex atm. Tyranitar and Weavile are also great atm, making Pursuit support easier to fit into a team.

I also agree with Bisharp rising atm. It absolutely obliterates the extremely common bulky teams atm, and it’s not deadweight against offense either due to Sucker Punch. It also takes adavantage of common Pokémon atm such as Tornadus-T, Clefable, and Mega Lati@s.

Tornadus-T should also rise atm. It is a very good glue mon atm, providing teams speed, a Kartana check, a Lando check, and U-turn and Knock Off support. Knock Off actually makes Tornadus-T very difficult to switch into, Magearna, Clefable, Gastrodon, Zapdos Tapu Koko, and Heatran all hate their items getting removed.

I’m pretty split on this one. On one hand, a Zygarde counter is very appreciated atm. It also partners very well with Tornadus-T. Earthquake is also nice for Heatran. But, Tangrowth is also very easy to take advantage of atm. Tangrowth gives extremley dangerous Pokémon free switchins, such as Mega Lati@s, Clefable, and Tornadus-T. AV Bulu has the power and coverage to fight back against all of these Pokemon. I’m leaning towards no for Tangrowth, but I’m cool with whatever happens.
Now for some of my own noms.

Mega Mawile from A- to A.
Mega Mawile can break pretty much any defensively core you can think of, including ones with Heatran. Heatran Is very easy to chip into range of +2 Sucker Punch with mons like Tornadus-T and Tapu Bulu. Mega Mawile can then proceed to rip apart the majority of teams atm. Mawile takes advantage of common Pokémon atm like Clefable, Tornadus-T, Tapu Bulu, and Mega Latias.

Terrakion from B- to C+.
Terrakion is in absolutely horrible spot atm. The Scarf set is complete bait for Zygarde, Mega Scizor, Landorus-T, and Clefable. Depending on the move it locks itself into, it can be take advantage of by Mega Lati@s, Tornadus-T, and Tapu Bulu as well. There is very little redeeming factors so of the Scarf set. The Z Stealth Rock set is an okay breaker, but why would you use it over Kartana, Tapu Lele, or literally almost any other breaker?

 

[Finchinator]

Moving Blacephalon to UR

 

[Leo]

Fuck Finchinator omg

 

[Colonel M]

not every team has Tyranitar though, and many teams don't have an answer for it

Blace's Speed tier isn't that great anyway. Teams often have one of Mega Latis, Torn-T, or Ash-Gren. The latter is worse because of Water Shuriken. If running Specs or not behind a Sub Mega Alakazam can force Blace out or obtain a free Beast Boost with Trace. Also bulky Water-types like Gastrodon are still pretty common and Blace locking onto Shadow Ball is very underwhelming in some circumstances because, though unresisted by a lot of Pokemon, it also lacks a lot of power behind it too.

Being extremely prone to hazards does not help it either.

I get Finch's post is a joke, but so is the clown. Lets not sugarcoat it and just admit it sucks and to move on. UR rn.

 

[Taptricity]

Moving Blacephalon to UR

I know that this is a joke, and you might as well burn me for being a sorcerer, but I like Blace. Good meme though. Anyway, should we drop Blace to C because of T-tar’s rising usage to combat the Mega Latis? Along with it being water shuriken fodder and Gastro’s relevance just slaughtering it too? It’s awkward speed tier lets it get Pursuit trapped and revenge killed by Weavile and what do you know that’s also rising in usage! It’s sheer power is neat but maybe if it didn’t have such a shallow movepool it would actually be a usable special wallbreaker. Actually no, I’m nomming Pennywise to just drop to C. It’s just struggling way too much to actually break through stuff because there are so many relevant answers to it currently.

 

[Leo]

No fun allowed itt, next blacephalon post I delete gets infracted

 

[teachable]

View attachment 122999Terrakion from B- to C+.
Terrakion is in absolutely horrible spot atm. The Scarf set is complete bait for Zygarde, Mega Scizor, Landorus-T, and Clefable. Depending on the move it locks itself into, it can be take advantage of by Mega Lati@s, Tornadus-T, and Tapu Bulu as well. There is very little redeeming factors so of the Scarf set. The Z Stealth Rock set is an okay breaker, but why would you use it over Kartana, Tapu Lele, or literally almost any other breaker?

I disagree with this somewhat, I feel like Terrakion atm is kind of not as well explored atm as it should be atm. Substitute + Taunt/SD w/ Rockium kinda destroys a lot of balance/stall builds atm and is something I've been loving in practice atm, but again I'm a fucking weirdo with teambuilding so I don't feel super passionate about Terrakion's position either way atm.