Of all the Heatran checks out there, Gliscor is the only one with both recovery and access to Rocks, meaning is more consistent than Tyranitar in that regard, while being overall more consistent than Tapu Fini and Garchomp at checking Heatran. And also, you don't really use Offensive Gliscor due to always needing support from Magnezone and being outclassed by Magearna as a anti-stall setup sweeper, while Defog Gliscor in mainly a thing in stall, where Tornadus-T doesn't fit.
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
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I agree with this, but I still think that gliscor should be dropped just a little. Specifically Mchomp and lando-t just seem to be more popular in filling the role that gliscor plays, and I just don't think that it can hold up to the growing presence of reg. kyurem and gren or Mttar with ice beam or ice punch respectively.
You seem to be missing the point that countless people have been trying to illustrate for you all. Gliscor does different things than Garchomp and Landorus-Therian for the most part, and will not be dropped. Gliscor, as previously mentioned, can reliably deal with Heatran throughout the match, as well as fill many roles, such as Defogger on stall where Torn can't fit, Acting as a Consistent Heatran answer, as well as being a Rocker and a Stallbreaker with Taunt, and preform offensively with SD sets. Landorus and Garchomp can switch in on Heatran, but only a few times, thanks to lack of reliable recovery. As far as Mega Chomp is concerned, I don't think it even runs Stealth Rocks first off, second off, the ice beam/ice punch point is stupid and makes no real part of affecting a Pokemon's viability. That's like saying because Greninja has Hydro Pump and is common, that Landorus should be moved down only because of that. It's not a point anyone should try to make. Please for everyone's sake, think before you type.
Edit: Mega Chomp does run rocks.
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Katy
Banned deucer.
To get over the Gliscor discussion (btw: It should really stay where it is right now at A-) I wanna go back to Mega Garchomp and also Celesteela.
Mega Chomper has seen some Tournament usage recently and performed not bad at all and I think C+ is a better placement on it. Being able to hit Steel types with a decently strong Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Having stuff like Stone Edge, EQ, Rocks and Draco Meteor (which also is decently strong) is a really great offensive utility. A lot of things got pointed out already on this mon, but having a Mega which is Pre Mega over 100 abse fast and after Mega still pretty decently fast is a good standing right now at OU. Also Mega Garchomp works pretty well not only on pure Sand Teams.
C+ is a better standing for it
Celesteela should move up because it is not only a good check to Tapu lele and Mega Zam it also is pretty annoying to face. The defensive utility has mostly only 1 Set, which is Leech seed, Protect, Flamethrower and Heavy Slam, but this Set alone is good enough to annoy the opponent throughout the entire game. It also serves as a check to other pkmn pretty well like Landorus-Therian, Mega Latios, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn.
Celesteela to A+
Mega Chomper has seen some Tournament usage recently and performed not bad at all and I think C+ is a better placement on it. Being able to hit Steel types with a decently strong Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Having stuff like Stone Edge, EQ, Rocks and Draco Meteor (which also is decently strong) is a really great offensive utility. A lot of things got pointed out already on this mon, but having a Mega which is Pre Mega over 100 abse fast and after Mega still pretty decently fast is a good standing right now at OU. Also Mega Garchomp works pretty well not only on pure Sand Teams.
C+ is a better standing for it
Celesteela should move up because it is not only a good check to Tapu lele and Mega Zam it also is pretty annoying to face. The defensive utility has mostly only 1 Set, which is Leech seed, Protect, Flamethrower and Heavy Slam, but this Set alone is good enough to annoy the opponent throughout the entire game. It also serves as a check to other pkmn pretty well like Landorus-Therian, Mega Latios, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn.
Celesteela to A+
Chansey gets access to Stealth Rock, has reliable recovery and can wall all non Taunt sets so Gliscor is not the only one. Also I agree but I don't feel it should remain in A- for those reasons alone. It has too many sets that get hard walled by common Pokes (can't Touch Celesteela or Skarmory if it runs Toxic and it can't touch Rotom if it's running Taunt just to name a few) and although it does get access to U turn, Lando does it better
I don't think I'll change anyone's mind though so we should go back to discussing Mega Chomp
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According to the Heatran analysis:
"Moves
Magma Storm enables Heatran to trap passive foes such as Toxapex and Chansey while also allowing it to fire off a strong Inferno Overdrive afterwards without fearing the opponent predicting it and switching out; Inferno Overdrive also helps it get past the likes of Gliscor and Mega Sableye and provides a strong hit on any of Heatran's offensive checks. Earth Power rounds out Heatran's coverage by hitting opposing Heatran and Toxapex. Taunt shuts down recovery moves from passive walls like Chansey and Toxapex and gives Heatran an easier time beating them one-on-one in tandem with Magma Storm."
and defensive lando can't touch skarm/cele for the most part as well, so theres your faulty reasoning right there. let's stop discussing Gliscor before the moderators blacklist it.
I guess you didn't read the part about all "non taunt heatrans" and Gliscor has to watch out for Z Tran as well as it can OHKO after rocks
Lando has more than just the defensive sets like Smack Down. Even other sets Gliscor has like the SD set don't do that much better against the Pokes I mentioned.
Nevertheless, still does not justify a Gliscor drop. Move on
Yeah I think the argument for dropping Gliscor is pretty bad. SD Scor usually has Magnezone as a partner to help bypass Celesteela as an example. Its other sets are still perfectly fine, and being a somewhat bulky Ground that has access to real recovery is not something a lot of the current used Grounds can brag about. I dont see how it's really a B+ Pokemon at a glance since it matches a lot better with the current A- Pokemon in terms of meta presence and viability.
I don't think we need to discuss further with Gliscor either way, but I'm going to just say the arguments presented against Gliscor are pretty weak and fail to understand that Gliscor has a lot of perks still over its other Ground-types that it "competes" with.
I don't think we need to discuss further with Gliscor either way, but I'm going to just say the arguments presented against Gliscor are pretty weak and fail to understand that Gliscor has a lot of perks still over its other Ground-types that it "competes" with.
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I mean at that point you're talking about cores and very specific cores at that which is one reason many believe Mega Pert (another B+ mon) shouldn't rise. I agree with what you mentioned about it's recovery but you feel that that plus the other points you mentioned are enough for it to stay in A- while I feel its not. So I guess we can just agree to disagree
This post has been a long time coming, but now I must talk about OU's new Donphan: Mimikyu
Mimikyu to C-/Unranked
1. What's the problem? Free SD and priority
Yeah well Mimikyu absolutley needs Disguise to do anything. If it's broken and forced out before sweeping, it is nothing but dead weight: too frail to set up and too weak without any boosts to do anything of note.
The set listed on Smogon is the only one Mimikyu runs, and admititley linearity is not inherintly bad, but this set has way too many problems to adress, so let's get to it.
Mimikyu @ Life Orb/Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
2. That's just a set, what's wrong with it.
Mimikyu's main goal in a match is to set up SD and sweep with the moves provided. However, Mimikyu faces multiple problems even when set up. It's speed tier is just messed up, outspeeding Lando and Gliscor but falling to any base 100+ like Kartana, CS Magnezone and priority like Pinsir and Scizor-M. All of these mons can beat it after Disguise breaks, which considering many popular leads can use VoltTurn to break the disguise, get momentum and switch into a counter. And here's where I find Mimikyu to falter worst,it just doesn't break down what it needs to. Sure, with team support it can break down those counters, but many of them are able to rejuvenate themselves easily like Toxapex and Skarmory. Not to mention switching it in, since you can't use a fast VoltTurn for fear of Disguise and switching it in outright risks that too, so either a slow switch or sacking is what you have to do.
3. So, what counters it and why should it drop because of that.
MANY of the top threats in S-A tiers just straight up destroy it. The entire S tier gets it good: Lando has Intimidate and can U-Turn to break disguise, Ash can't win if it has the Disguise up but can easily revenge kill it afterwards, and Heatran, Magerana and every Steel-Type(especially prickly durain) counters it on the fact that Mimi can't hit them very hard even at +2. Toxapex, Rotom-W and anything with Scald can basically cripple it for life if they burn it. Yes a +2 Z-Move can be devestating and can break a good number of it's counters, but being a one-time move when most teams carry at least 2+ checks means it sill gets walled, and Steels just tank it and win.
Point of the matter is, Disguise does not help a mon who is weak without boosts, frail, vunerable to all status, lacks the neccesary speed and gets walled to easily. This does not need to be on the level of M-Chomp(why isn't this BL) and Moltres.
bonus replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-876573416 Mimi fails to set up and has to switch out. Then it get's frozen and loses. Pretty lucky but shows just how hard it is to set up after losing the disguise
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-876577885 96% after a crit why
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-876580042 worn down so easily that it's ridiculoso
Mimikyu to C-/Unranked
1. What's the problem? Free SD and priority
Yeah well Mimikyu absolutley needs Disguise to do anything. If it's broken and forced out before sweeping, it is nothing but dead weight: too frail to set up and too weak without any boosts to do anything of note.
The set listed on Smogon is the only one Mimikyu runs, and admititley linearity is not inherintly bad, but this set has way too many problems to adress, so let's get to it.
Mimikyu @ Life Orb/Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
2. That's just a set, what's wrong with it.
Mimikyu's main goal in a match is to set up SD and sweep with the moves provided. However, Mimikyu faces multiple problems even when set up. It's speed tier is just messed up, outspeeding Lando and Gliscor but falling to any base 100+ like Kartana, CS Magnezone and priority like Pinsir and Scizor-M. All of these mons can beat it after Disguise breaks, which considering many popular leads can use VoltTurn to break the disguise, get momentum and switch into a counter. And here's where I find Mimikyu to falter worst,it just doesn't break down what it needs to. Sure, with team support it can break down those counters, but many of them are able to rejuvenate themselves easily like Toxapex and Skarmory. Not to mention switching it in, since you can't use a fast VoltTurn for fear of Disguise and switching it in outright risks that too, so either a slow switch or sacking is what you have to do.
3. So, what counters it and why should it drop because of that.
MANY of the top threats in S-A tiers just straight up destroy it. The entire S tier gets it good: Lando has Intimidate and can U-Turn to break disguise, Ash can't win if it has the Disguise up but can easily revenge kill it afterwards, and Heatran, Magerana and every Steel-Type(especially prickly durain) counters it on the fact that Mimi can't hit them very hard even at +2. Toxapex, Rotom-W and anything with Scald can basically cripple it for life if they burn it. Yes a +2 Z-Move can be devestating and can break a good number of it's counters, but being a one-time move when most teams carry at least 2+ checks means it sill gets walled, and Steels just tank it and win.
Point of the matter is, Disguise does not help a mon who is weak without boosts, frail, vunerable to all status, lacks the neccesary speed and gets walled to easily. This does not need to be on the level of M-Chomp(why isn't this BL) and Moltres.
bonus replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-876573416 Mimi fails to set up and has to switch out. Then it get's frozen and loses. Pretty lucky but shows just how hard it is to set up after losing the disguise
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-876577885 96% after a crit why
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-876580042 worn down so easily that it's ridiculoso
It's almost as if people can't read...
I'm not even gonna respond to the rest of this post because it's full of obviously uneducated statements or is just outright false, but Mimikyu is a boon to high-paced offensive teams and should get moved up from where it is if anything, rather than being unranked, for its unique role and ability to provide a myriad of things for offensive teams that simply can't be filled by other mons. I see this mon getting slandered all the fucking time and it just perplexes me. Mimikyu obviously has its flaws, but it's not like this thing's ranked in A for fucks sake.
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The fact that it can auto psudo haze with disguise red card is enough for it to remain in the OU tier in my opinion
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The fact that it hits like a wet paper towel and takes up a valuable team slot makes me beg to differ.
I’m fine with Mimikyu remaining ranked, but it’s not very good outside of highly specific niches. It’s not consistent and if it weren’t for the ability then it’d be one of the worst pokemon out there. Thankfully, it does have Disguise, which is an absolute godsend for it. It’s still Mimikyu though. It will never be consistent or good unless the metagame is mostly HO, making that free turn more valuable and the damage it does greater relative to what it would be against bulkier opposition.
You can't tell me that this is a "very specific core" when Magnezone literally makes up every offensive core that uses a wallbreaker/set up mon that struggles to deal with bulky Steel-types like Celesteela and Magearna. Mega Swampert's ranking has been based on the overall viability of Rain in the current metagame in tandem with Pelipper and not because its some "specific core" that you believe in your misguided post. I know that we've stopped Gliscor discussion, but this statement is just flat out wrong. Please don't smite me O Omnipotent Mods.
There are so many things wrong with this post so let's just break it down for the fun of it. There is first the supposition that Mimikyu is fairly linear and can only run one set. While on the smogon site there are recommended sets for Pokemon listed, those are often not the only sets those Pokemon can run viably. Mimikyu has multiple sets that it can run such as such as the aforementioned set, burn utility, trick room set up, and my personal favorite sub salac. While Swords Dance is considered the best set, it is important to acknowledge that there are other sets that it can run. This allows for Mimikyu to potentially surprise opponents that would otherwise be counters and is particularly important for luring threats when placed on offensive teams.
In your second point you acknowledge that all of those Pokemon can beat Mimikyu "after Disguise breaks". This is a major problem because first they have to break the disguise in order to actually beat Mimikyu, which allows for it to have a turn to set up. You then bring up the point that many popular leads have U-Turn/Volt Switch to break Disguise, however it is never acknowledged that Mimikyu is not a lead, but rather a mid to late game sweeper meaning that it will never willingly be switched into those threats. This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of how offensive teams work. In general offensive teams tend to sacrifice Pokemon in order to clear counters and threats for another Pokemon to clean up the opposing team. A well made offensive team will never have to switch Mimikyu into a counter. This means that Mimikyu will either threaten to KO a Pokemon or cause a switch. If Mimikyu causes a switch it will not only have one free turn, but two due to Disguise. While the biggest weakness of Mimikyu is that it is difficult to cause the initial switch, if it causes that switch none of the Pokemon that you mentioned beforehand can counter Mimikyu reliably.
You then state "Disguise does not help a mon who is weak without boosts, frail, vunerable to all status, lacks the neccesary speed and gets walled to easily", implying that Disguise is completely useless. This is obviously not the case as Disguise is the only reason that Mimikyu is viable at all. While I do agree that Mimikyu is not on the level of Mega-Garchomp, (Garchomp should be C+) it does fit into the C tier well, being viable in it's hyper offense niche.
The most egregious part of your post was that you included replays showing you failing with Mimikyu. This should never be done to try to lower the ranking of a Pokemon. I could show Heatran failing on my team and say it's unviable because I couldn't get it to work. This does not mean that Heatran is bad but rather I could not use him effectively. Also you show extremely low ranking matches so Mimikyu is not even being used in a competitive setting.
The biggest problem with Mimikyu is that it is very attached to the viability of hyper offense teams. Mimikyu is good against Hyper offense and it is good on hyper offense. Right now hyper offense is in a poor spot so Mimikyu is in the C tier. However Mimikyu has a very unique niche and when it fulfills its role well it is going to be a good Pokemon. This pretty much the definition of a C tier Pokemon.
I'm pretty sure what you said about Swampert and Pelipper describes a "specific core" pretty well.
You can't tell me that this is a "very specific core" when Magnezone literally makes up every offensive core that uses a wallbreaker/set up mon that struggles to deal with bulky Steel-types like Celesteela and Magearna. Mega Swampert's ranking has been based on the overall viability of Rain in the current metagame in tandem with Pelipper and not because its some "specific core" that you believe in your misguided post. I know that we've stopped Gliscor discussion, but this statement is just flat out wrong. Please don't smite me O Omnipotent Mods.
Finchinator
I was just mentioning it since it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the post. I feel it's a really underrated set in a metagame full of Beasts Boosts, Soul Hearts, Moxies and just overall with sets that can get out of control really quick
I'm not necessarily going to blacklist Mimikyu, but I think we've heard enough posts on the Subject 18 to last a while. Let's talk about other Pokemon on the VR instead and avoid low hanging fruit like C rank mons which barely matter whether they're really C or C-.
I'm also going to ask people to put a little more time and effort in their future posts when nominating a Pokemon up or down. There definitely has been lower quality of posts lately with this and I feel that being blunt about it will hopefully get people to think a little harder before posting a nomination first. We'll wait and see, but I feel there are a lot of Pokemon to talk about still that are worthy of rises and drops and people tunnel way too hard on C Rank mons.
I'm also going to ask people to put a little more time and effort in their future posts when nominating a Pokemon up or down. There definitely has been lower quality of posts lately with this and I feel that being blunt about it will hopefully get people to think a little harder before posting a nomination first. We'll wait and see, but I feel there are a lot of Pokemon to talk about still that are worthy of rises and drops and people tunnel way too hard on C Rank mons.
Kyurem-Black is a wonderful breaker in the metagame, as nearly nothing can safely switch into it for fear of being heavily weakened by its coverage. It's access to outstanding coverage moves such as Ice Beam, Fusion Bolt, and Earth Power lets it dismantle offensive and defensive teams. It's bulk is nothing to scoff at either, as 125/100/90 is quite decent to take resisted and weak moves, ranging from Gliscor's Earthquake to Tapu Fini's Scald.
My favorite set in particular is Icium Z in tandem with Substitute, which lets it avoid status moves and fire off attacks, and when there's the right target, a one-time nuke that could blast defensive mons such as Toxapex and Gastrodon to smithereens.
The Life Orb set is also pretty dandy, as it can carry HP Fire to heavily damage pokemon such as Mega Scizor, which can be a bit of a nuisance to deal with, but Earth Power generally works better to dispose of Heatran.
What I think changed in the metagame to make Kyurem-B better is how the mons it can switch into have risen, such as Stealth Rock Gliscor, therefore justifying it to rise.
Raise Kyurem-Black to A tier
Kyurem-Black vs. Ferrothorn
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 310-366 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyurem-Black vs. Mega Tyranitar
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 280-331 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Kyurem-Black vs. Pyukumuku
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 160-190 (50.9 - 60.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyurem-Black vs. Mega Sableye
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 328-387 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kyurem-Black vs. Mega Aggron
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 152-179 (44.1 - 52%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 310-366 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyurem-Black vs. Mega Tyranitar
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 280-331 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Kyurem-Black vs. Pyukumuku
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 160-190 (50.9 - 60.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyurem-Black vs. Mega Sableye
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 328-387 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kyurem-Black vs. Mega Aggron
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 152-179 (44.1 - 52%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO
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Hi, I‘m here to talk about 2 unraked pokemon,that although I’m not sure the deserve to be in the viability rankings, I rlly don’t de lose nothing doing this
Let’s start:
GOURGEIST:
okok... we are starting strong... what is doing gourgeist here ? Finally nobody wants it...
Well, I think it have a decent utility in ou
First, let’s talk about what is the role of gourgeist in ou and what set Im using as reference
Gourgeist-Super @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed/seed bomb
OKOK, WE ARE STARTING BAD
is that the normal pu set...?
Well, the idea with gourgeist is to check physical attackers as well as checking some set-up sweepers psysical atackers, something that rocky helmet tangrowth can’t do with most of these
Gourgeist can check pokemon like excadrill, garchomp, some sets of Gliscor (like a sd set),occasionally jirachi,kartana,occasionally landorus-t,occasionally MLopunny, it Can counter any Tapu Bulu set
Gourgeist can burn or put them leech seed like zapdos, tornadus,celesteela,Heatran,etc
Colbur berry is rlly useful in a lot of situations, especially when you want to burn some of its checks,like a tyranitar and a choice-locked weavile in knock Off or pursuit
It also is useful for knock off users like kartana and ocasionally Mega Mawile
It Can check other things, but rlly is a bit harder to perform well against pokemon like swampert, cause it can’t click syntesis comfortably, of ferrothorn, cause gourgeist can do much more than burn it, so, use a sun user like Charizard-MegaY can be helpful for gourgeist ^
Here the replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-877186340https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-877270276
Now, let’s talk about the 2nd pokemon
GOODRA:
well, as before, first I’ll put the set on which I’m based
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
Ok... Im 100% sure that when u saw the word “goodra” u thinked in a av set... but noup.
Well, in ou, goodra is a great special wall and it can be difficult to switch to it depending the mu
Goodra can check things like blacephalon, Greninja ash, Ocasionally Mega Alakazam,Charizard-Mega-Y,ocasionally ferrothorn,some Greninja sets, it’s a great switch-in to Heatran, it can check grass types like Tapu Bulu, choice-locked kartana and tangrowth thanks to toxic, fire blast and Sap Sipper, magnezone,pelipper,rotom-w, Can counter serperior,Tapu Koko,Volcarona, zapdos, and it Can toxic gastrodon on a switch-in
And well, im using a leftovers > av cause toxic is important to check pokemon like charizard, tangrowth, Volcarona, gastrodon, zapdos, Mega Alakazam, etc
32 speed is to speed a smog on Mega Mawile set and click fire blast/eq trying to kill it or have a great damage in it
To finish, a wish user is extremely useful for goodra, cause one of the weakness of goodra is the lack of recovery
Here are the replays ^
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-842174321https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-875597026
Well, that’s all ^
Just to add it, goodra replays are rlly old
bye :DDDDDDDDDDD
Let’s start:
GOURGEIST:
okok... we are starting strong... what is doing gourgeist here ? Finally nobody wants it...
Well, I think it have a decent utility in ou
First, let’s talk about what is the role of gourgeist in ou and what set Im using as reference
Gourgeist-Super @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed/seed bomb
OKOK, WE ARE STARTING BAD
is that the normal pu set...?
Well, the idea with gourgeist is to check physical attackers as well as checking some set-up sweepers psysical atackers, something that rocky helmet tangrowth can’t do with most of these
Gourgeist can check pokemon like excadrill, garchomp, some sets of Gliscor (like a sd set),occasionally jirachi,kartana,occasionally landorus-t,occasionally MLopunny, it Can counter any Tapu Bulu set
Gourgeist can burn or put them leech seed like zapdos, tornadus,celesteela,Heatran,etc
Colbur berry is rlly useful in a lot of situations, especially when you want to burn some of its checks,like a tyranitar and a choice-locked weavile in knock Off or pursuit
It also is useful for knock off users like kartana and ocasionally Mega Mawile
It Can check other things, but rlly is a bit harder to perform well against pokemon like swampert, cause it can’t click syntesis comfortably, of ferrothorn, cause gourgeist can do much more than burn it, so, use a sun user like Charizard-MegaY can be helpful for gourgeist ^
Here the replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-877186340https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-877270276
Now, let’s talk about the 2nd pokemon
GOODRA:
well, as before, first I’ll put the set on which I’m based
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
Ok... Im 100% sure that when u saw the word “goodra” u thinked in a av set... but noup.
Well, in ou, goodra is a great special wall and it can be difficult to switch to it depending the mu
Goodra can check things like blacephalon, Greninja ash, Ocasionally Mega Alakazam,Charizard-Mega-Y,ocasionally ferrothorn,some Greninja sets, it’s a great switch-in to Heatran, it can check grass types like Tapu Bulu, choice-locked kartana and tangrowth thanks to toxic, fire blast and Sap Sipper, magnezone,pelipper,rotom-w, Can counter serperior,Tapu Koko,Volcarona, zapdos, and it Can toxic gastrodon on a switch-in
And well, im using a leftovers > av cause toxic is important to check pokemon like charizard, tangrowth, Volcarona, gastrodon, zapdos, Mega Alakazam, etc
32 speed is to speed a smog on Mega Mawile set and click fire blast/eq trying to kill it or have a great damage in it
To finish, a wish user is extremely useful for goodra, cause one of the weakness of goodra is the lack of recovery
Here are the replays ^
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-842174321https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-875597026
Well, that’s all ^
Just to add it, goodra replays are rlly old
bye :DDDDDDDDDDD
Unfortunately, Gourgeist-Super is completely outclassed by Physcially Defensive Tangrowth. Tangrowth has Regenerator, meaning that it doesn't have to rely on Synthesis, and doesn't even need to run max defensive investment, so it can take better special hits, unlike Gourgeist-Super.
Also, Tangrowth has the benefit of being far less passive, unlike Gourgeist, and doesn't need to run Leftovers, as opposed to Gourgeist relying on Colbur Berry to avoid Pursuit.
Tangrowth vs. Mega Lopunny
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 108-128 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- 28.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gourgeist vs. Mega Lopunny
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 106-126 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Tangrowth vs. Garchomp
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 249-293 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gourgeist vs. Garchomp
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 245-289 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tangrowth vs. Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 186-220 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gourgeist vs. Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 184-217 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Gourgeist vs. Excadrill
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 337-397 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Tangrowth vs. Excadrill
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 340-402 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 108-128 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- 28.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gourgeist vs. Mega Lopunny
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 106-126 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Tangrowth vs. Garchomp
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 249-293 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gourgeist vs. Garchomp
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 245-289 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tangrowth vs. Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 186-220 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gourgeist vs. Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 184-217 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Gourgeist vs. Excadrill
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 337-397 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Tangrowth vs. Excadrill
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 340-402 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, no chance of Gourgeist getting anywhere in the viability rankings when tangrowth's around to do it's job 200 times better.
I'll address the Goodra bit. Okay, so first place I'm going to start is with where you said it's a good special wall. I ran some calcs, being the curious person I am, and found that pre-transformed Greninja's dark pulse does around 30%, Heatran's Z Magma Storm does about 24% on average. These 2 are really the only ones that matter here, as Ferro isn't an offensive presence, and even you admit it can only sometimes switch into Zam, as well as Charizard Y being hardwalled by Toxapex.
However, the problem with Goodra is, even with Leftovers, it's really really really susceptible to Greninja's Spikes and Heatran's Toxic. These both pressure the living daylight out of your suggested Goodra, and hinder it from doing it's job due to being worn down so fast. Now, this is the case with many of these pokemon's answers, such as Tapu Fini and Garchomp. However, the key difference in these 2 specific pokemon are that they can circumvent these in different ways. Fini has Misty Terrain, which blocks status and can defog away Greninja's spikes. Garchomp can outrun and EQ through Heatran before it gets the chance to click Toxic, however it should be noted that no one is probably going to stay in with Heatran against a Garchomp.
As you even mentioned, your replays are old and from a older metagame, one that includes several key factors that are not present in the current metagame, such as Zygarde. This has a huge influence, as what Goodra may have been able to do during the Zygarde era, it cannot do as well in the current one.
In conclusion, I don't think Goodra should be ranked. It doesn't really do much in checking things, although Sap Sipper is a useful ability, and Goodra looks nice on paper, it's just to weak to Hazards and Status to be considered a good Heatran/Greninja answer.
Edit: I don't know how to type correctly. It should NOT be ranked.
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Honestly, if you'd nominated Gourgeist during the Zygarde meta, I would've gone for it - its access to WoW gave it a notable niche over the other bulky Grasses at that time, and I know there were a couple of stall teams that even ran Curse Geist to flex on SubStatus sets. I mean, at least it wasn't complete dead weight vs non-Zyg teams like Avalugg was, and that thing somehow got ranked, right? However, the loss of Zygarde unfortunately also meant the loss of any reason whatsoever to run it over Tangrowth, Amoonguss or Mega Venusaur.
... On which note, exactly why is Avalugg still ranked?
power
uh-oh, the game in trouble
This is better suited to the simple questions, simple answers thread, but Avalugg still has a decent niche on stall for handling Mega Mawile with its physically defensive rocky helmet set, as it is able to threaten it with earthquake and deal sizable damage. Mega Mawile is quite possibly THE most threatening wallbreaker in the tier, at least for stall, and so having a pokemon that can handle it was always useful. Avalugg also fulfills a multitude of other rules, such as checking SD Z-Fly Lando-T and providing Rapid Spin support.
Avalugg's use always sprung from the danger of Mega Mawile, not Zygarde; while it did check Zygarde, stall in recent eras was never exceptionally weak to Zygarde anyway, and often packed pokemon like clefable or quagsire alongside avalugg (not necessarily for Zygarde, just coincidentally to handle other threats). I see this misconception that Avalugg was "for" solely Zygarde pretty often, and I'm not sure where it comes from.
In the future, if you're not sure what roles a mon fills, you can always feel free to ask in SQSA and we're happy to help.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
Yo what is your deal with the goat wall avalugg. It's attacks of ice/quake are unresisted, it's pretty strongly offensively and physically defensively amazing. On stall it's pretty good but even outside of that you can have a bulky, recovering hard hitter that can come in on kyublack's Z ice attack and shrug it off like a paper cut. Have you just not used it or you just haven't had success with it?
- Status