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termi

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Skuntank: S to A+ (disagree)
So for Skuntank I had to do a Pro Skunk and Pro Mesprit list (see down below in the spoiler). For me it's just a decision of whether Skuntank has more or less pros than Mesprit since they both have what it takes to be S rank. They are splashable (which is a criteria in my opinion. Didn't understand Exeggutor in S when it was allowed tbh), they, hence, can fulfill supportive, offensive or defensive roles.
To think about S-Ranks that way may seem strange but if you look at other S-ranks like Lando-T in OU, Scizor in UU, Stoise in RU or Incineroar in NU they all do exactly have these advantages (and more, like ours).
That's also why I positioned myself to disagree on Stout being S. Just because something is broken doesn't mean it has to be S.
Eitherway, for Skuntank's case, it isn't even in question if it is a subrank below Mesprit or not (which was my initial thought on that topic). It differs from Mesprit through its movepool that isn't as big as Mesprit's. However, Skuntank has strengths in other places again. Just look at the list I've made so my point gets clear.
In short: Skuntank and Mesprit have the same amount of good points speaking for each of them so don't seperating them in the ranks only seems reasonable.

Pros Skunk:
- Great Offense MU with a strong Sucker Punch
- Great defensive Utility in checking PU's best Pokemon imo: Mesprit
- Different sets and unpredictablity. Possible to punish its usual switchins (like Gurdurr/Mudsdale) with Acid Spray. Band and Scarf are also nice sets to compress other roles
- In a pinch, it can inflict important chip on physical threats with Rocky Helmet + Aftermath
- Has a place on basically every playstyle
- Decent Hazard Removal
- Best Pursuit in PU

Pros Mesprit:
- Great Breaking potential with CM or Choice Specs
- decent Offense Matchup with the Scarf Set
- one of the best pivots
- great supportive role with the defensive set (Healing Wish/SR; Rain Dance if you want)
-> A SR setter that also is a Fighting resist is amazing
- Most splashable Pokemon in PU; Scarf and Rocks are potent in every team and Mesprit can do both without losing much
- Unpredictable. You can adjust its set depending on your team.
- Also has a place on every playstyle
Your side-by-side comparison with Mesprit proves nothing. What am I supposed to gain from a random listing of perks of two top tier threats (without discussion of cons to boot)? I could make an equally or even more compelling list of perks that for example Sandslash-A and Oricorio-E possess, but this in itself does not mean that any of these threats are or are not S rank worthy. What exactly is Skuntank's impact on the metagame that makes it more than a "mere" A or A+ rank Pokemon (which at the end of the day still means it's a top threat)? You can point at "splashability" all you want but I find that the two A+ mons I previously mentioned are at least as easy to fit on a team, even many threats in lower ranks like Primeape, Lanturn, and Regirock are at least as splashable as Skuntank. I am not alone in this: if we take a look at Exhibition, the most recent tournament where PU is played at a high level, we find that in the first 6 weeks Skuntank has been used 20 times, with over half of these 20 being used in the first two weeks (when the meta was at its most unstable and the broken Minior made its Sucker Punch + Aftermath/Rocky Helmet combo very appealing). By comparison, Oricorio-Pom-Pom has been used 21 times, Sandslash-A 29 times, Primeape 26 times, Regirock 16 times, Lanturn 16 times. Mesprit, the Pokemon you are trying to compare it with in terms of supposed splashability, has been used 48 times. In practice, we find that Skuntank is popular on a high level, but

While we're comparing it to Mesprit, let's also take a better look at its supposed versatility (a common argument for its ranking). Yes, it's true that it has 4 sets it can run. However, any set that isn't the standard Rocky Helmet set has some very obvious flaws that make it far less desirable. The CB set does hit significantly harder, but can't utilize its two best moves (Sucker Punch and Pursuit) as effectively because being locked into either move can be very awkward on a lot of teams, and it still struggles with most of its checks and counters, at best taking them out with Explosion. Scarf meanwhile is an extremely niche set that I personally haven't encountered yet, but I assume it's useful on certain hyperoffense teams that appreciate its resistances + a fast Memento, but outside of that you're better off with its standard set. The special set probably is the best of its non-standard sets, as it does allow it to pick apart slower teams and deals with most of its usual checks not named Regirock decently, but this set still sacrifices the things that usually make you want to run Skuntank (Pursuit trapping Mesprit, Sucker Punch, Rocky Helmet + Aftermath, Defog) and is pretty lackluster without Z-move, so this set too lacks that splashability that its most common set has. Now if we look at Mesprit, what we find is that it does better in the versatility department than Skuntank: there's defensive SR, offensive SR, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, CM + 3 attacks, and bulky CM, with many of these sets having several variations. Defensive is the "standard" set, providing the greatest amount of utility of them all (SR, reliable Fighting resist, Healing Wish, U-Turn pivot), but the other non-standard sets are more common than Skuntank's non-standard sets, are better at dealing with the usual Mesprit checks, and sacrifice less utility when deviating from the standard than Skuntank does. All non-choiced sets remain fairly reliable Fighting resists due to them usually running Colbur or Z-move and tend to do a better against a lot of common Mesprit checks (Sandslash-A, Aggron, even Skuntank itself), meanwhile Scarf is its second most common set due to how many teams love a fast HW and due to how many fast mons have difficulty stomaching a strong Psychic (meanwhile thanks to U-Turn you can still keep yourself from getting trapped too easily). While defensive is Mesprit's most splashable set, I wouldn't say its other sets are clearly a step below it; Skuntank's most common set is also by far its best set and its other sets are rarely worth considering in practice.

As far as pro-Skuntank arguments I've seen thus far, I think the most convincing is the one made by Ktütverde: Skuntank (or at least its Rocky Helmet set) is low risk, high reward. Between its ability to pick off weakened sweepers with Sucker Punch, the great damage it can inflict with Aftermath + Rocky Helmet on a few threatening breakers and cleaners like Stoutland, Primeape, and Aggron (but let's not exaggerate: most top threats in PU do not rely on contact moves), and the fact that it is the best or second best answer to the best mon in the tier is not to be underestimated. That being said, none of this I feel makes it an S rank threat per se: in terms of versatility, defensive utility, and so-called splashability it is rivaled by many mons that aren't even brought up as potential S rank candidates. In addition, its movepool remains fairly limited, with its only viable attacks aside from STAB moves being Fire Blast (on special) and Explosion (on CB). It's versatile, but not that versatile. It's splasahable, but not that splashable. It's capable of checking a decent portion of the tier, but is easily checked by numerous common mons in return. Its power is sufficient, but far from overwhelming. All of this is to say, I absolutely think it's a great Pokemon, I am even willing to say that for the moment A+ might be a better rank for it, but considering its flaws and considering the current shape of the meta, I do not think it has that X factor that makes it worthy of S rank at this moment.

Anyway, while I'm here I'll give rebuttal to a few noms I disagree with:

B -> B+/A-: This mon requires way too much support in a very hazards-oriented meta to be considered more than a niche pick. Between the fact that getting hazards up currently is a lot easier than removing hazards and the fact that common hard counters to Scyther such as Oricorio-E and Regirock are very much in vogue right now, it takes a lot of effort to get it to fit on a team properly and consistently do work, especially when its better sets rely on it constantly pivoting with U-Turn (meaning keeping SR off is an absolute necessity). When looking at other mons in B+ and A-, they are vastly more capable of holding their own and/or are way more difficult to handle for amny a team than Scyther, which often ends up walled or otherwise beaten despite the fact that most people don't consciously prepare for it.

A -> A-: Hardly even worth bringing up since others already pointed out why this nom makes no sense, but let me reiterate that between its extremely useful set of resistances (best viable answer to Gurdurr in the tier hello) which make it a good option on just about any team, the difficulty teams without Lanturn or Regirock have with it, and its surprising versatility there really is no reason for this thing to drop.

D -> C/C-: Can we get some replays of this thing so we have any sort of idea what this thing's supposed to do and why you should ever use a mon that gets beaten by Skuntank as well as any team running a random mon with Knock Off instead of, idk, Mesprit? I know Magic Guard seems cool and all but is it ever really worth using? I'd sooner nom this to get unranked than moved up.

Noms I particularly agree with: Froslass to S, Primeape and Gurdurr moving up, Jelli to A, Bouff/Simipour up, Missy/Probopass down (Probo has been absolutely terrible since Ferroseed left and may as well be unranked until the seed returns tbh)

Also I'm too lazy to make official noms but I very much agree with Ktut's suggestions to rank Simisage and move Golurk up a subrank cuz it's a great offensive rockers that compresses several roles in one which makes it very good on many an offensive team (Primeape counter, Rock check, SR setter (duh), emergency spinblocker etc)
 

ishtar

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Ill be making some noms regarding some stuff as well as giving my opinion regarding some of the earlier posts, often simply agreeing or disagreeing with them since I feel like a lot of the earlier replies to these nominations encapsulate my thoughts with more cohesion than I personally would have been able to express, or simply share a thought that Id simply echo if I were to go more in depth.

Drampa: B+ -> A-

Drampa has proven to be one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier right now, Carbink being one of its only true counters. Drampa's speed might be mediocre but its offensive presence is undeniable, being able to 2HKO specially defensive walls such as Clefairy and Audino. Not only that but the omnipresence of Pokemon such as Lilligant, as well as the use of other grass types such as Victreebel only increases Drampa's repertoire of amazing qualities that differentiates from other wallbreakers such as Stoutland. Anything that isn’t able to OHKO Drampa will probably get OHKO'd in return and its amazing coverage allows it to threaten most of the tier for neutral or super effective damage.

Being able to check Lilligant is an aspect that can’t be stressed enough in the current meta: non-Z-Hyper Beam variants will be totally walled by it unless they’re magically able to boost up their Special Attack tremendously, and its ability to live a +1 Hyper Beam only shows how great of a nuisance it can be to one of the most potent sweepers in the tier, yet its qualities shouldn’t be limited to its ability to check Lilli, since its incredible power will be useful in almost any matchup.

Abomasnow: B+ -> A-

Similarly to Drampa, Abomasnow functions as a great breaker in the tier, but what makes Abomasnow such a force to be reckoned with is its amazing offensive typing, coverage, multiplicity of sets and ability, which is able to support the also omnipresent Sandslash-Alola if paired with it. I’ve managed to test Abomasnow lately, mostly utilizing its Choice Scarf set and I’ve been more than pleasantly surprised with the way in which it pressures so many teams. It's easy to argue how it's defensive presence might be a big issue for it but, with the right support, users utilizing Abomasnow will find great qualities in a mon thats able to threaten most of the S and A+ threats with the right coverage.

As it has been pointed out in recent posts, teams utilizing Sandslash-Alola as their only Ice resist get really pressured by Abomasnow's coverage, and the use of a Choice Scarf allows it to threaten a huge number of Pokemon in the tier such as Lilligant, Sandslash-Alola, Oricorio Pom-Pom, Skuntank, etc. yet its qualities aren’t limited to its Choice Scarf set, since almost no teams will have everything needed to cover for all of what the tree has to offer in terms of its moveset, often needing to sac a mon and allow another one to revenge kill Aboma. (Also, Ice Shard exists). Id love to see more tour games with Abomasnow, because I truly believe that it has so much to offer in the current meta.

Manectric: B -> B+

Manectric has been seeing a bit more use in the current meta as a fast Choice Scarf user whose almost perfect coverage (Common trend amongst this post) allows it to catch a plethora of teams off guard. Being able to outspeed other Choice Scarf users such as Primeape and Mesprit allows Manectric to heavily dent teams with a simple Volt Switch, as well as being able to abuse the common Sandslash-Alola – Quagsire cores that have been running around by using moves such as Overheat and HP Grass, often putting the opposing teams on 50/50s that could put opposing teams at a disadvantage. Other sets such as Specs have been utilized by players, but the use of Manectric, even now, ends up being rather niche, but its qualities often are better than its shortcomings. Doing 59-70% to Lilligant at +1 and simply abusing teams that use Quag as their only Ground-type ends up being incredibly handy, as well as being able to threaten the most common scarfer in Primeape and beating down the most common hazard remover in Sandslash-Alola.

Much like Simisear, Manectric is able to threaten teams by utilizing its amazing coverage, the only disadvantage of this mon being that Mane does require to be locked into a move in order to function well in most circumstances. Electric or Fire type Pokemon with Grass type coverage such as Manectric, Simisear and Eelektross are able to threaten so much in the tier, and Manectric definitely deserves more recognition in the current meta thanks to these great qualities.

Now onto some other noms:

Stoutland: A+ -> S. Sure.

Eelektross: A- -> A. YES!


The eel is just such a great offensive pivot in the tier. It might not have the same utility or defensive backbone as Lanturn, and is speed tier might be exploitable, but its coverage (as well as this Acid Spray set that has been running around, yuck) proves to be annoying to so many builds. I do feel like theres a big reason to use it over Lanturn, since one functions as a defensive pivot while the Eel is able to cover for some lack of offense in teams that also require a slow pivot.

Oricorio Pom-Pom: A+ -> A. No.

Simisage: Rank. Yes.



Some final thoughts, this time regarding Skuntank:

I was personally of the mentality that Skunk wasn’t on par with the other S mons last week (pls don’t hate me). I still feel super weird about it, but after a really productive conversation with HJAD, I started trying out some different sets and talked about its placement in the tier (the special set is p good yo). What Ive come to determine, and what I've also gathered from some different users in the tier is that Skunk isn’t really something that players think about when building, it’s a mon that’s naturally checked by some of the most used Pokemon in the tier right now, and its amount of usage in Exhibition has dropped significantly due to the use of other hazard removers (or scarfers/wallbreakers, etc.).

Despite these factors, it still does what it does best with its multiple options and I’ve seen more sets being used lately on tour level, often to great success. Stuff such as Scarf and even AV come to mind, I’ve personally enjoyed its Special set as I previously mentioned. While I’ve come to understand Skuntanks place in the meta in a more significant way in recent times, it must be pointed out (and I think players have to be somewhat naïve not to notice this) is that the meta hasn’t been the nicest to it lately.

While i do think that its deserving of its place right now (in my opinion), I don’t believe that this is gonna be the end of the conversation for Skunk. Skunk will always be in a great place in this meta due to its great options and movepool, but its up to players to explore these options before coming to the conclusion of it dropping in rank. The note that Im trying to end on is that, while I recognize its place right now, I definitely feel like the users will have to decide its faith in the VR in the future, but I dont feel as if this is the exact moment to make said decision, when its not being explored as much as it maybe should be. Thank you for reading.

(The purpose of this final part wasn't to make it seem as a direct reply to anyone btw, actually read the most recent Skunk post right after posting this since I had been working on the writing of this for a bit. Just wanted to put my two cents regarding Skunk from the perspective of someone who's also doubted it's placing before.)
 
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Anyway, while I'm here I'll give rebuttal to a few noms I disagree with:

B -> B+/A-: This mon requires way too much support in a very hazards-oriented meta to be considered more than a niche pick. Between the fact that getting hazards up currently is a lot easier than removing hazards and the fact that common hard counters to Scyther such as Oricorio-E and Regirock are very much in vogue right now, it takes a lot of effort to get it to fit on a team properly and consistently do work, especially when its better sets rely on it constantly pivoting with U-Turn (meaning keeping SR off is an absolute necessity). When looking at other mons in B+ and A-, they are vastly more capable of holding their own and/or are way more difficult to handle for amny a team than Scyther, which often ends up walled or otherwise beaten despite the fact that most people don't consciously prepare for it.

A -> A-: Hardly even worth bringing up since others already pointed out why this nom makes no sense, but let me reiterate that between its extremely useful set of resistances (best viable answer to Gurdurr in the tier hello) which make it a good option on just about any team, the difficulty teams without Lanturn or Regirock have with it, and its surprising versatility there really is no reason for this thing to drop.
At this point, I concede the Oricorio-E nom. I suppose it's a really unpopular opinion and I don't have much else to say about it.

However, on the Scyther nomination, your reasoning is kind of flawed. Oricorio-E and Regirock hard counter Scyther, but it happens to check all current three S ranks (which are even more common than Regirock and Oricorio-E). I think it's more significant that Scyther beats all 3 S ranks than the fact that it loses to some A+ rank mons.

"...it takes a lot of effort to get it to fit on a team properly and consistently do work, especially when its better sets rely on it constantly pivoting with U-Turn (meaning keeping SR off is an absolute necessity)." This point is very subjective and I'm not quite sure if it's true. Personally, I find it harder to fit Haunter (B+) on a team than Scyther. Regarding your point about Stealth Rock, Articuno too has a double weakness to Stealth Rock and it is still A-. Many prevalent mons such as Froslass, Aurorus, Oricorio-E, Jynx, and others have Stealth Rock weakness. That's why hazard control isn't scarce or anything with all the Defoggers that exist as well as Hitmonchan, AlolaSlash, and even Kabutops running around. Also, you are implying that using U-turn is negative when it is actually a great move to scout and engender momentum.

"...which often ends up walled or otherwise beaten despite the fact that most people don't consciously prepare for it." Is there supporting evidence of this? This also seems subjective.

Now I will reiterate some previous points:
1. Scyther is incredibly versatile, which is unusual for a "niche" Pokemon. It's no One-Trick Pony and it's difficult to counter effectively.
2. Choice Band Scyther hits like a truck. Band U-turn does a substantial amount of damage to anything that doesn't resist, while also generating momentum for the team. On the other hand, Primeape's U-turn does relatively trivial damage.
3. Scarf Scyther with Jolly outspeeds and OHKOs Scarf Primeape, the premiere scarfer in the tier currently. It also outpaces offensive AlolaSlash in Hail, threatening to one-shot it with Brick Break after Stealth Rock damage.
4. As I've mentioned before, bulky SD screws over Lilligant, Mesprit, and Skuntank. And Gurdurr.
5. Scyther can utilize other moves like Knock Off or Pursuit. Technician Pursuit does enough to pick off quite a few weakened threats even though it isn't STAB. Albeit more niche, it can viably run Brick Break on the SD set to beat AlolaSlash, Aggron, and Aurorus.

In conclusion, I can't understand why Scyther is B. At least B+. Below I have some calcs to show how hard this thing hits.

252 Atk Scyther Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola: 248-296 (85.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Scyther Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 384-452 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 201-237 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 166-196 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 211-250 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Before we get to the traditional stuff, after a lot of internal debate we eventually settled on establishing a new S- rank. We only put 1 mon in it (Skuntank) but were seriously considering 2 others (Stoutland, Alolan Sandslash) so there is some merit to having a placing in between S and A+ right now. This might end up being a flavor of the month that goes away next time we update, or maybe it'll stick around until gen 8, I have no idea, but for right now enough of us felt that Skuntank was definitively worse than S but still better than A+ to warrant this ranking. As always, the votes are visible here.

Rises
Froslass A+ to S
Regirock A to A+
Gurdurr A to A+
Alolan Persian A to A+
Primeape A- to A
Drampa B+ to A-
Carracosta B+ to A-
Metang B- to B
Turtonator C+ to B-
Muk C- to C
Bouffalant D to C-
Electrode Unranked to D
Shiinotic Unranked to D

Drops
Skuntank S to S-
Lycanroc A+ to A
Jellicent A+ to A
Swanna A- to B+
Silvally-Ghost B- to C
Probopass B- to C
Smeargle C- to D
Shuckle C- to D
Misdreavus C- to D
Toucannon C- to D
Meowstic-M D to Unranked
Cacturne D to Unranked
Noctowl D to Unranked
Murkrow D to Unranked

Stoutland A+ to S-/S
Alolan Sandslash A+ to S-
Oricorio-E A+ to A
Scyther B to B+/A-
Kadabra C+ to C
Duosion D to C-/C/C+
Electabuzz Unranked to C
Ditto D to Unranked
Nominations we went 50/50 on aka discussion points: Eelektross A- to A, Abomasnow B+ to A-, Dodrio A to A- (we considered B+ completely out of the question), Simipour D to C-, Silvally-Fairy B to B-, Simisage Unranked to D

Boy I do not want to type a mountain because there were way too many noms. For the S- stuff, overall we were really split on if any mons were really noticeably between S and A+, and which mons were, and it was close and subjective enough that I think any differing opinions could be pretty fair, even though it ended up being just Skuntank. I like how it turned out though, Skuntank is a really big presence in the meta where it defines a lot of what's good and changes the viability of things like Dodrio and Jellicent just by existing, even if its usage is going down and it's not always as impactful in a game as it is at builder. Most of the other main top rank shifts in Froslass/Regirock/Gurdurr/Lycanroc/Jellicent got good explanatory posts, but Alolan Persian was mostly just in-council. I know we rejected A+ and just rose it to A last update, but it's continued to be such a huge threat in defining what is and isn't speed in the tier that we felt the rise was warranted. I personally think it's still the worst mon in A+ purely in terms of how effective its sets actually are, but it definitely deserved the bump. We also rose Carracosta without making a post, it's been seeing an increase of usage in tours like Exhibition due to how nice it is to punish the influx of Scarf Primeape and this change is meant to reflect how it went from "good in practice but nobody ever uses it" to "actually a relevant meta threat". Shiinotic's ranking was in-house too, can't say I wanted it ranked but it's fine to use so whatever. On the drops side, we tried to do some of the D rank cleanup and got rid of some of the worst offenders of "not really practical ever" in the rank, but then ended up making the rank even bigger anyway. Oops
Pom-Pom and Scyther had zero chance of dropping, I think those have been strongly and effectively refuted and Scyther in particular is just a completely misguided nomination. It is far closer to dropping than it is to rising. Electabuzz also just really isn't good at all and I think there's a clear misunderstanding of what is a valuable niche in the meta when it's being presented as better than Stunfisk. Electabuzz is a bulky pivoting Electric-type, but that's not actually something you want on a team. Plus, Rotom-F and Pom-Pom also kinda cover that niche while focusing on doing other, more relevant stuff.
I know I didn't touch on a lot of nominations, so if there's anything you want more detail on feel free to PM me, post on discord, post in the SQSA thread, etc. I'm loving the discussion and we have plenty of discussion points for you guys, so let's just keep this debate going.
 
Great update from the PU council! Been a while since I've made my own post for the VR so I might as well share my thoughts once more after 3 months have gone by since my last post:

Alolan Sandslash to S-
It was only a matter of time. I think A-Slash falls under the same phrase that Skunktank has: Low risk, high reward. Alolan Sandslash can fit on any defensive core for Balance and BO with almost no drawbacks included. Ice-resist, Normal-resist, Lilli check if it doesn't have HP Fire + Grass-resist to everything else, Mesprit check, Flying-check, this Pokémon just compacts so many useful resistances that are essential when it comes to many defensive backbones. A-Slash also is no slouch in the offensive department as it can still be an effective Hail Sweeper on HO teams which also proves that A-Slash is pretty damn splashable+has some versatility outside of being a defensive rock setter. Overall, A-Slash is a definitive defensive Pokémon in PU that lets it thrive as a borderline S tier threat.

Scyther to B-
Speaking of dropping Scyther. Scyther fell out of favor really hard. Scarf and Band are awkward to fit and just suck in general. It sucks especially to be Scyther when A-Slash and Regirock are just dominating the defensive side of the metagame along with Pom Pom being the best bird. Scyther is just really awkward to build around on teams due to it strenuously requiring team support only for it to crumble against the top threats plaguing the tier. The situation only gets worse when Scyther relies on a pivoting move to deal significant damage. It constantly needs to avoid Stealth Rock damage alongside other possible chip+wasting a turn to set-up and take damage only for it to attack and then be forced to switch out. There's overall too many variables involved when using Scyther that I don't even think it deserves to be in the B ranks.

Alright overall I don't really have much though outside of supporting the Abomasnow nom and maybe Simisear to A-. Abomasnow is a really underrated breaker as mentioned before and Simisear is still doing Simisear things (with some extra experimentation) and is dominating.
 
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Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
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Poliwrath A- to B+
Simisear B+ to A-
Silvally-Poison to UR
Wishiwashi to UR

Poliwrath was a Pokemon tcr, Granbule, and I were discussing about in #sm_pu, and after collecting my thoughts I really think Poliwrath should move down a rank. Poliwrath tends to be more of a gluemon than a Pokemon that stands out on its own, and when Pokemon such as Aggron, Colbur Jellicent, and Lycanroc are seeing a bit of a decline, Poliwrath can be hard to justify over something like Gurdurr. I think one of its saving graces is that it can reliably switch into all variants of Alolan Sandslash, but tcr made me realize how many other Pokemon such as Gurdurr, Regirock, and Froslass already check the specially defensive set well enough. Things such as Calm Mind Mesprit and Oricorio-Pom-Pom are also as popular as ever, and for all of these reasons I think Poliwrath can be somewhat hard to justify using. Still a fantastic gluemon, but just a tad worse in the current metagame.

On the other hand, Simisear has been seeing a lot of tournament success recently in Winter Seasonal and Exhibition. I've been testing with it some on ladder, and I was fairly impressed with how much it was able to pressure the opponent, force switches, and obtain Nasty Plot boosts. It definitely takes advantage of some of the more passive playstyles that we've been seeing lately, has fantastic coverage, and its unique Speed tier can make it difficult to revenge kill outside of Choice Scarfers such as Primeape and the limited number of base 105s, 110s, and 115s such as Alolachu and Alolan Persian. These Pokemon can't really switch-in at all though, and I think thats one of the biggest reason why Simisear works so well. It pressures so many things all in one slot, it's just a really cool breaker right now, and I think it warrants a rise.

Silvally-Poison and Wishiwashi are both nommed here for about the same reason. They aren't worth using and they don't have enough of a clearly-defined, justifiable niche. Silvally-Poison was ranked originally for absorbing Toxic Spikes on stall, which admittedly are a huge pain for the playstyle. However, Silvally-Poison's lack of reliable recovery options outside of Rest makes it too overly dependent on Audino for passing Wishes to it from my experiences. Toxic Spikes aren't this common thing you see on all teams anymore. In fact, there are only two common users: Roselia which saw use checking Specs Jellicent and is currently seeing use for checking Lilligant and Weezing which hasn't really made a huge splash in the metagame for some time now. Stall has also changed a lot in the fact that hazard control mons are usually Levitating or are part Flying-type, meaning they aren't really affected. Stall also isn't that great of a playstyle right now outside of popping up occasionally in tournament play, and even then, those builds don't include Silvally-Poison. Wishiwashi also has not seen much use on its preferred playstyle, Trick Room. Trick Room playstyles themselves have had a sharp decline in usage due to Alolan Exeggutor's ban. In theory Wishiwashi is this super strong breaker under Trick Room that can pivot on Trick Room's last turn to the secondary Trick Room setter. However, it falls short of a lot of KOs, usually taking a hit back, and in combination with residual damage from Life Orb, changes out of its School form really quickly. For these reasons, I believe both of these Pokemon should be unranked.
 

sugar ovens

blood inside
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As this would be a very big change to the VR, it is probably pointless for me to write this, but.. for discussion i guess? Who knows.

There are several pokémon with different roles that do their work extremely well and reliably, low-risk high-reward, metagame-defining threats. The best entry-hazard setter, best sweeper, best wallbreaker etc. Some of them are S, some have been nominated, they all are kind of on a similar level. There is even a new subrank for Skunk that is just too close to both S and A+, Slash and Stout may be in the same situation. On the other side of the rankings, there is the D rank, where the pokémon that have a notable niche that warrants them on the VR and the pokémon without a notable niche that warrants them on the VR live together. Notice the C- rank: only four pokémon that are not so different from the mons that are rightfully in the D rank and Drifblim.

So, the solution for the "too many very good mons" and "unviable mons in D" problems might be moving everything (except Slash, Stout, maybe Mesprit, D-ranked mons with a niche and obviously the mons that deserve a rise) down a subrank (while removing S-, of course). Reminder: PU does not use rank descriptions like some other tiers do, each Pokemon in a rank should just be seen as above or under Pokemon in other ranks rather than needing to fit a certain set of criteria, so "this pokémon is too *something* to be in A+ instead of S" shouldnt be taken into consideration.
 
165452Hakamo-o to D rank


It has niche role in the restalk bulk up dragon tail set as dragon tail sends other mons flying into hazards. This mon pairs excellent on both a rocks and spikes team as it can spam dragon tail and get free hazard chip. Hakamo-o Also walls some scary stuff in the tier such as liligant lycanroc skunktank And Houndoom which all are pretty big threats in the current meta. On bad side though Hakamo-o does not fit well onto teams which is why I wouldn’t rank mon any higher than C. It is also walled by fairies but luckily there aren’t too many fairies in the tier to worry about. I hope y’all consider this post and ranking my dragon friend.

first post ever

Replays:
 
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Ktütverde

of course
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S -> S- : agree
Agreed. Sandslash might be a bit overhyped, but fully deserves the S- rank. I can already hear you whispering: "what S- rank wasn't a flavor of the month joke?". Actually I did vote to have S- created, and still think it should exist. In a nutshell, I consider PU has got an overwhelming number of breakers/sweepers as opposed to the available defensive mons, the only good ones being either stall mons (audino/altaria/articuno), whereas the other few ones are not that splashable (regirock/quag/gastro are good, but still require certain support). On the other hand, we have got "defensive" sandslash (I like the word "utility" more) which isn't amazing per se, just gets Koed by random HP fires/HP fighting from common mons like mesprit, lilligant and pompom, is weak to the ever-so common fighting types. However, the incredible role compression and splashability (you rarely think about supporting sandslash, it acts as a cornerstone in most teams (add mesprit for fighting/ground resistances, and neglect fire types cuz only simisear is remotely good) warrants it the S- rank imo: okay, sandslash is expolitable; okay, it is weak to common stuff. But when it comes to finding a normal/flying/ice resist, a switchin to skuntank, a mesprit check, a stealth rock user, a spinner, a toxic immunity, you don't have any other options: as a result, sandslash is a good choice in most PU teams, simply because it frees teambuilding, which is a real pain when stuff like stoutland, aurorus, birds, froslass, skuntank, mesprit can wreck most teams and require multiple dedicated checks in non-sandslash teams. I do like sandslash, I do think it's pretty good but also very predictable and exploitable, but there's nothing else able to fulfil so many roles at the same time and able to make teambuilding more enjoyable. That's why I wouldn't go to S, I feel like sandslash being "good" is only a product of the meta lacking defensive/utility mons, and in a way, I would say that sandslash is a default option in most teams.

B -> B- : strongly disagree
I just want to say that being weak to rocks is not an argument to make scyther drop, especially when it is mainly a pokemon for voltturn offense, which is able to keep rocks away easily, especially when scyther threatens to KO common rockers such as mesprit and sandslash with bug/fighting coverage. Choice scarf scyther is a pretty good scarfer imo, having a x4 resist to grass and fighting+access to a strong uturn+speed stat allowing it to beat rain ludicolo/hail sandslash. Ofc it doesn't work in slow teams with no momentum, but at least try to use it where it is good instead of slapping it in a random team and calling it bad: you don't use x4 weak rocks mon like the other mons (see moltres articuno volcarona charizardY). Anyway, let it rest in peace in B which is low enough and better focus on awful mons ranked higher than it like bellossom and haunter.

A- -> B+ : agree
yeah poliwrath sucks atm, it just doesn't fit anywhere and loses to most toptiers. I don't see a reason to use it tbh, helps vs rain aggron and lycan, but that's it. Gurdurr is usually a much better choice

B+ -> A- : why not
Don't really have an opinion on this, it's scary in some matchups, but its abysmal defenses, weakness to rocks and reliance on Z (specs maybe?) makes it not splashable and a bit hard to justify in teams since it kinda needs solid support (rock/water/ground resists, voltturn support, hazard removal, pivots able to check all scarfers... It's popular and quite effective when it is used, so A- seems fine

Some of my noms:
B+ -> A-
Yeah I'm not waiting for ferroseed to drop. Victreebel is one of the most splashable breakers imo, simply because it has all the coverage/power it needs + strength sap which is Huge since it allows it to wall gurdurr/hitmonchan (no, icepunch isnt a move on chan anymore). I just want to point out at pompom being in A+ partially because it semi-walls gurdurr/lilligant. Also being immune to toxic is pretty good vs regirock/mudsdale/audino/quagsire etc, our other main toxic absorbers being sandslash/skuntank/qwilfish I guess? Usually you will just use other fighting checks and use lilligant cuz why not, but victreebel is a really legit choice able to compress roles: wallbreaker; toxic absorber; gurdurr counter. Also try using it with a timid nature if you are weak to stoutland, you don't need modest so much ;_;

A- -> B+
This mon is too hard to use, outclassed by many things as a speed control (froslass/lycan/persian) and hard to fit in teams. I'm not sure about this, I just see simisear as a "better raichu" (I hope you understand what I mean)



Regarding B rank dudes, I won't bother typing much about them, however dropping bellossom pinsir and haunter would be really fine, nobody uses them, they don't put in work, and don't have a real niche (froslass>haunter in most scenarios, lilligant/victreebel/shiinotic>>> bellossom, Nastyplot users/ursaring/whatever>pinsir at breaking stall; did Z-me first pinsir ever work? I've never witnessed it anyway). Also don't drop pompom, the role compression it provides and threat it poses to teams lacking lanturn/regirock is real.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Votes are here. Note that I put down the wrong ranks for Alolan Dugtrio and also completely forgot to add last update's noms we went 50/50 on like an idiot, but since this update's already written oh well. Maybe the tier shift will end up invalidating the noms or something.

Rises
Simisear B+ to A-
Victreebel B+ to A-
Claydol C+ to B-
Servine C- to C

Drops
Alolan Dugtrio A- to B+
Haunter B+ to B
Pinsir B+ to B
Bellossom B to B-
Silvally-Ghost C to C-
Silvally-Poison D to Unranked
Wishiwashi D to Unranked
Duosion D to Unranked
Misdreavus D to Unranked
Toucannon D to Unranked
Skuntank S- to S or A+
Alolan Sandslash A+ to S-
Jellicent A to A-
Ludicolo B+ to A-
Poliwrath A- to B+
Raichu-Alola A- to B+
Manectric B to B+
Scyther B to B-
Throh C+ to B-
Electrode D to C-/C
Hakamo-O Unranked to D
Very few things to move up this time, but the meta has given a lot of power to Simisear and Victreebel as strong Z move wallbreakers and we felt that Claydol and Servine, while not amazing, were just mildly underrated compared to the other things in their previous subranks. The drop side is mostly handling Pokemon that have fallen out of favor, things like Dugtrio and Pinsir aren't bad by any means but consistently see pretty garbage usage because of how difficult they are to justify. Also some D rank cleanup for the people who're still annoyed on that, Toucannon/Misdreavus/Duosion have become pretty much impossible to justify compared to similar, higher ranked mons, Wishiwashi being a mediocre choice on an already lackluster and niche playstyle in Trick Room is just sad, and Silvally-Poison... idk I wanted it to stay but it's just crazy niche that you need a pivot Defogger that only semi-checks Gurdurr and removes Tspikes. In rejected nominations we revisited the topic of S- but felt it's still fine as is, and then mostly ended up not agreeing with minor changes between the A- and B areas. Hakamo-O is just not going to happen though, even if we weren't cleaning out the D rank it's just ridiculously lackluster and niche.
I know there's a large meta shakeup projected for the near future, but feel free to keep the nominations flowing before then, there's no guarantee that what we get changes the change you'd like to see.
 
Toucannon is actually the only thing I know that can check sash/bulky frolass. Choice scarf rock blast always ko,s anything but max hp+defense investment

I don't know if that was its first niche but is there another anti lead to frolass that also has a pivot?
That's a very small niche to have when there's other Pokemon that can outspeed and threaten it such as Lycanroc and Persian-Alola. Aside from that it's pretty much outclassed by Dodrio in every other single way.
 
Said I was gonna make a VR post after Doom was banned so.. here I am :). Also, this has been on my radar for a while.



Eelektross A- -> A
This one ended in a 50/50 so I thought it was worth re-nomming. Eelektross is an incredible pivot at the moment. It's coverage of Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Volt Swtch, Thunderbolt/Discharge and Knock Off/Acid Spray is sure to have an answer to most Pokemon and if not, it can simply pivot out with Volt Switch into something that can deal with the opposing Pokemon. As well as it's coverage, it's a great special sponge, tanking hits from Specs Aurorus, Specs Mesprit and +2 Lilligant due to its decent bulk and Assault Vest. Another thing Eelektross has going for it is the fact that it has no weaknesses. The combination of Electric+Levitate allows Eel to switch into Pokemon without having to worry about a type disadvantages.


Abomasnow B+ -> A-
In the current meta, Abomasnow is a fantastic wallbreaker due to its great offensive typing and its multitude of viable sets that leave the opponent guessing at team preview. To start with, Abomasnow has amazing STAB and a great movepool, allowing it to hit many common opponents very hard. Recently, I've been running the Choice Scarf set and I can safely say from experience that it is a very solid set. With a Choice Scarf, Abomasnow is able to retain all of its original qualities that make it a good wallbreaker and more. It is able to outspeed most of the meta, bar most other scarfers, and can capitalize on this by hitting them with a STAB Blizzard which is sure to hurt. Scarf Abomasnow threatens a lot of its checks such as: Oricorio (both Pom-pom and Sensu), Lycanroc, +2 Carracosta, Specs Mesprit, Skuntank etc.

Now, time to talk about its fantastic ability in Snow Warning. Summoning hail on the switch is extremely useful for Abomasnow. It allows it to: hit Blizzard everytime, chip anything that switches in over the next 5 turns, be paired with Snowslash and helps against weather significantly. This makes Abomasnow fairly easy to build with and a very consistent member of a team. Of course, when you see Abomasnow, you notice that it has a fair amount of weaknesses. However, that doesn't take away from its wallbreaking capabilities and ability to to paired with many other Pokemon that can cover its weaknesses due to its excellent versatility.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-867249192 - Here, Abomasnow is shown aiding Sandslash throughout the game and even winning the game at the very end.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-867184947 - Here, Abomasnow is chipping the opponents team and is helping to break possible threats such as Jellicent whilst aiding Sandslash which then goes on to eliminate a large threat in Dodrio.
I would show other replays but they show the exact same thing so i thought it was pointless, s/o KellyKafka for the replays and for introducing me to this mon :)
 
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I know there's going to be a tier shift in the near future so I won't say anything too controversial.

Rises


Exeggutor from Unranked to C-/D

Exeggutor @ Choice Specs
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Although this thing sucks compared to its Alolan counterpart, Exeggutor does hit very hard. It completely terrorizes the Jellicent/Roselia/Mudsdale core. Leaf Storm tears stuff like Lanturn and Jellicent to shreds, as well as pretty much anything that doesn't resist or isn't immune to it. Its secondary Psychic typing, which sadly makes it susceptible to getting Pursuit-trapped, enables it to check Fighting-types like Hitmonchan and Gurdurr, and deal heavy damage to Drampa. Hidden Power Ground can come as a surprise for offensive Skuntank and AlolaSlash, threatening to OHKO the former after Stealth Rock damage. Additionally, it is a ruinous sweeper on Sun teams. This thing pales in the face of Alolan-Eggy but I think it deserves to be ranked.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 325-384 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 393-463 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 252-297 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 279-328 (78.8 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 240-283 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash-Alola: 298-352 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 208-246 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 314-370 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Drops


Ursaring from B- to C+/C

Even though Ursaring hits like a beast, it's slow as hell and gets overwhelmed by the large amounts of faster sweepers in the tier. Primeape, Gurdurr, and Hitmonchan are everywhere as well as Colbur Berry Jellicent and Sableye. I still don't get why Ursaring is the same rank as Zangoose, who's much faster, has access to priority, hits almost as hard, and is significantly harder to deal with outside of Trick Room. Speaking of Trick Room, Ursaring is outclassed by other sweepers such as Crabominable, Marowak, and Wishiwashi, and it will have a hard time finding a spot on the team. Not that Trick Room is meta-defining in the first place. Its Quick Feet set, which is much weaker, still gets outsped by your average Scarfer and the numerous amounts of base 110s and 115s including Raichu-Alola, Froslass, and Persian-Alola. It's eclipsed by Stoutland, Dodrio, and Zangoose.


Bellossom from B- to C+

I think that Bellossom should be taken down another notch. Even with its half-decent bulk, this thing won't be able to switch-in very often. Ice- and Flying-types are omnipresent in the tier. Lilligant outshines it as a Quiver Dance sweeper while Victreebel and Roselia outshine it as a Grass-type in general. It gets rekt by Froslass, Dodrio, Oricorio-E, Simisear...I could go on and on. Furthermore, Bellossom suffers terribly from Four-Moveslot Syndrome. If it doesn't carry Safeguard, it gets shut down by Toxic. If it doesn't carry Moonblast, it gets shut down by Drampa. It doesn't even beat stall teams, which often carry Articuno + Altaria.

Lilligant: phenomenal offensive sweeper
Bellossom: slow "bulky" sweeper that isn't very threatening even after +2 (this is assuming it gets that far)
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion
hitmonchan | a- to b+

hitmonchan is definitely in a rough spot. in the current meta it finds itself not switching into many common mons reliably. as far as common special mons go, it only really switches into lanturn which threatens status, lilligant if it gets unlucky with sleep turns, aurorus if it doesn't click blizzard (which reliably 2hkos), omastar if it's not running waterium z / chan has no prior chip. it's an unreliable check to a small group of special pokemon, that you should have better checks for. it's an unreliable spinner, in many matchups being comparable to having no removal at all as it has crippling issues breaking spinblockers. its overall utility at the moment is severely lacking, and it definitely doesn't compare to other pokemon in a-.​
mudsdale | a to a+
mudsdale is great in the current metagame. when combined with sufficient answers to aurorus and grass types, mudsdale has a very easy time whittling down opposing teams. figy sets are super cool atm with limited knock mons wanting to stay in vs mudsdale. one of the most reliable rock setters in the tier with common removal being skuntank, alolan slash, hitmonchan when mudsdale forces all three out. mudsdales bulk allows it to stay in on common ground immunities and toxic them or remove them via rock slide. mudsdale has the natural physical bulk to justify special investment if it wants to be a sufficient check to these mons. it's just so effective in practice, it feels like an insult to keep it anything lower than a+.​
ludicolo | b+ to a-
not for its role on rain teams, albeit that is important. it's an excellent sweeper in its own right, setting its own rain. not many teams have a solid switch-in for this mon, relying on their scarfer to force it out after sacking something, dodrio and swanna being the only reliable ones. mudsdale, regirock and quagsire have all risen in usage giving ludicolo a myriad of opportunities to set up its rain with ease. it has the natural bulk to survive most neutral hits in the tier regardless if these pokemon aren't present. anything that it does fail to overwhelm such as audino and hitmonchan are passive enough not to warrant panic. ludicolo has everything going for it at the moment and i believe its rank should reflect that.​
 
I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion (and as you can see I'm a bit biased) but hear me out on this one:


Masquerain - Unranked to C/C+

Masquerain is in my opinion a true force to be reckoned with and one of the best leads and sweepers in the metagame. I think a lot of the hate it recieves stems from improper/lack of usage. Masquerain recieved a +20 boost to its Spa and Spe stats in Gen 7, making it, together with Intimidate, Quiver Dance, Sticky Web and a diverse special moveset, a top offensive/support threat. Its exclusive combination of Bug, Flying and Water attacks is unresisted by the entire meta. Like every mon in the meta it has its share of flaws, including 4X weakness to Stealth Rock, mostly limiting it to a lead role, and it has trouble with priority users (Lycanroc), AV users (Eelektross) and weather setters that can easily KO it through its sash (Aurorus), but once boosted it can KO some of the top threats in the metagame, including Lilligant, Aggron, Hitmonchan, Persian-A and Mesprit just to name a few, and can deal serious damage to very bulky mon that are generally hard to deal with, including Shuckle, Mudsdale and Regirock. At the hands of the right trainer it can wreak havoc on opposing teams.

Adding it to the rankings could greatly increase its usage and as much as I enjoy surprising unaware opponents with it, I believe it deserves wider recognition for its worth.

To back up my claims, here are replays of just a few of the 6-0s, almost 6-0s and forfeits I have achieved with offensive lead Masquerain, taking advantage of hazard setter leads to set up, Intimidating physical attackers and burning them with Scald, flinching stallers with Air Slash or simply KOing with a supereffective move:


Edit:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-889434676
Masquerain boosts on lead, taking out an Oricorio-G and leaving big dents in Mudsdale and Lanturn before fainting, and thus making late-game cleaning an easy chore. Rocks are easily cleared right after Masq faints.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-886573146
Masquerain cannot always attempt to sweep early-game, as seen here being taunted by Froslass; However, with the help of hazard removing from teammates, Masquerain can also function as a mid/late game sweeper as seen here, easily sweeping top-tier threats. If not for Toxic damage, Masquerain could have gone all the way.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-888761117
Not reflective of a typical lead, but reflects the great potential Masquerain has in checking PU's newest threat. After one Quiver Dance boost, Masq walls Guzzlord's strongest STAB and proceeds to OHKO it (sash ignored) with Bug Buzz.
 
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Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion (and as you can see I'm a bit biased) but hear me out on this one:


Masquerain - Unranked to C/C+

Masquerain is in my opinion a true force to be reckoned with and one of the best leads and sweepers in the metagame. I think a lot of the hate it recieves stems from improper/lack of usage. Masquerain recieved a +20 boost to its Spa and Spe stats in Gen 7, making it, together with Intimidate, Quiver Dance, Sticky Web and a diverse special moveset, a top offensive/support threat. Its exclusive combination of Bug, Flying and Water attacks is unresisted by the entire meta. Like every mon in the meta it has its share of flaws, including 4X weakness to Stealth Rock, mostly limiting it to a lead role, and it has trouble with priority users (Lycanroc), AV users (Eelektross) and weather setters that can easily KO it through its sash (Aurorus), but once boosted it can KO some of the top threats in the metagame, including Lilligant, Aggron, Hitmonchan, Persian-A and Mesprit just to name a few, and can deal serious damage to very bulky mon that are generally hard to deal with, including Shuckle, Mudsdale and Regirock. At the hands of the right trainer it can wreak havoc on opposing teams.

Adding it to the rankings could greatly increase its usage and as much as I enjoy surprising unaware opponents with it, I believe it deserves wider recognition for its worth.

To back up my claims, here are replays of just a few of the 6-0s, almost 6-0s and forfeits I have achieved with offensive lead Masquerain, taking advantage of hazard setter leads to set up, Intimidating physical attackers and burning them with Scald, flinching stallers with Air Slash or simply KOing with a supereffective move:

Hi, I think masquerain could be ranked in D, however it's only niche is setting up sticky web, not sweeping or breaking teams since it is completely unable to do so. Ladder replays at 1200 elo are totally pointless, do you have tournament replays/replays vs viable teams? It's not meant to be offending, but you aren't going to convince me by sweeping dedenne/parasect teams, I guess you can understand it.

Masquerain's niche imo is 1) having sticky web 2) forcing out gurdurr/hitmonchan on turn1 (big threats to PU Hyperoffense) 3) being able to "support" his team thanks to intimidate as well as not being deadweight vs fakeout lead kangaskhan, contrary to sash smeargle.

Still, I strongly believe sticky web is definitely unviable in PU, simply because I have myself built a dozen webs teams that never worked reliably and never saw anyone being able to make it work consistently. Instead of ranking masquerain I would just unrank both smeargle and shuckle so as to show once and for all that webs is a hopeless playstyle in PU.

edit:

-I agree with dropping hitmonchan and poliwrath. Also forgot to nom Jynx for B+ last time, this pokemon is always 1 or 2 subranks higher than it should, I was told it was borderline broken or idk in 2017 which might explain it, but now it is super bad, can't run nastyplot anymore otherwise gets walled by sandslash-A (you have to choose between focusblast and NP, the other three moves are too important), anyway simisear raichu outclass it. It can get lucky and land a lovely kiss but that's it. It's only niche seems to be a pompom/omastar check but both kill jynx with stealth rock+SSSS/+2 earthpower...
 
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Hi, I think masquerain could be ranked in D, however it's only niche is setting up sticky web, not sweeping or breaking teams since it is completely unable to do so. Ladder replays at 1200 elo are totally pointless, do you have tournament replays/replays vs viable teams? It's not meant to be offending, but you aren't going to convince me by sweeping dedenne/parasect teams, I guess you can understand it.

Masquerain's niche imo is 1) having sticky web 2) forcing out gurdurr/hitmonchan on turn1 (big threats to PU Hyperoffense) 3) being able to "support" his team thanks to intimidate as well as not being deadweight vs fakeout lead kangaskhan, contrary to sash smeargle.

Still, I strongly believe sticky web is definitely unviable in PU, simply because I have myself built a dozen webs teams that never worked reliably and never saw anyone being able to make it work consistently. Instead of ranking masquerain I would just unrank both smeargle and shuckle so as to show once and for all that webs is a hopeless playstyle in PU.

edit:

-I agree with dropping hitmonchan and poliwrath. Also forgot to nom Jynx for B+ last time, this pokemon is always 1 or 2 subranks higher than it should, I was told it was borderline broken or idk in 2017 which might explain it, but now it is super bad, can't run nastyplot anymore otherwise gets walled by sandslash-A (you have to choose between focusblast and NP, the other three moves are too important), anyway simisear raichu outclass it. It can get lucky and land a lovely kiss but that's it. It's only niche seems to be a pompom/omastar check but both kill jynx with stealth rock+SSSS/+2 earthpower...
Thank you for the constructive reply.

I agree that Sticky Web is unviable in PU. What I was trying to achieve via this post (perhaps unsuccessfully) is to change the common perception that Masq's best niche is as a web setter when in my opinion it is much more viable as a sweeper and should be considered for that role vs. other mon, such as Lilli and Bellossom, whose limited (in comparison) movesets do not allow them to tackle as large a portion of the metagame.

I accept your criticism on the replays and I understand it. Up until now I tended to only save 6-0 replays, from now on I'll collect more replays that represent Masquerain's abilities against more viable teams (successful IMO = more kills than deaths on average). I'll update my original post in the near future to include more relevant replays.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
If You want something that can set up webs multiply times I'd actually suggest You try something like scarf leavanny. It has a surprisingly good stat line up
HP:75
Attack:103
Defense:80
Sp. Atk:70
Sp. Def:80
Speed:92
And a good amount of niche picks for moves like: poison jab, knock, throat chop, heal bell, swords dance, screens, magic coat. If You choose scarf it can switch into some neutral hits to reset them or stop a lilligant sweep unless it hp fires on switch(might actually build this into a hail team)

But I dont think masqu is a good setter of webs right now
 
Time to make a nomination for this abomination


Crabominable: B -> B+

So I've been looking at potential checks to Guzzlord and after some testing I've found that AV Crab is actually a pretty strong answer to Guzz, walling both the Specs and Dragonium sets and only being threatened if it's hit by a Specs Fire Blast on switch-in, else it utilises Drain Punch to 2HKO Guzz and mitigate much of the damage it has received. But after further experimentation I discovered that this mostly untouched mon can pretty much 3-0 teams lategame thanks to it's unique Ice/Fighting STAB and Thunder Punch, allowing it to destroy mons such as the Oricorios and Swanna that would put other Fighting-types such as Gurdurr to a halt. Also seeing as Lilligant is probably the most threatening mon in the tier at the moment it's worth saying that the Crab can tank a +3 Breakneck Blitz and OHKO with Ice Hammer.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Crabominable: 195-229 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Crabominable: 218-258 (54.7 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4+ Atk Iron Fist Crabominable Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Guzzlord: 338-398 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4+ Atk Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Guzzlord: 446-528 (75.9 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252 SpA Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Crabominable: 327-385 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4+ Atk Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 458-540 (162.9 - 192.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Regarding other noms: I think Ludicolo is more than deserving of A-, such a strong mon rn that thanks to it's unique typing is only really beaten in rain by scarfers like Scyther and Dodrio but you don't see those too often. It's not really my place to say whether Masquerain should be ranked or not because I haven't really tried it out but on paper it doesn't look too difficult to set up with thanks to Intimidate and it has decent coverage so I suppose it could warrant a ranking.
 
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TJ

Banned deucer.
is the Smogon Tour Season 34 Championis a Past SPL Championis a Two-Time Past SCL Champion
quick post

-> A+/S-
I'm aware that this thing has just dropped again, but Guzzlord has quickly proven to be a fantastic pick in the current metagame. Its great STAB combination, good offensive typing, access to Knock Off, and ability to run multiple viable sets, such as Dragonium Z, Choice Specs, Assault Vest, and Choice Band allows it to apply heavy pressure to teams. Its defensive typing is also very useful atm as it can check a plethora of top Pokemon like Mesprit, Lilligant, Skuntank, Alolan Persian, Jellicent, Eelektross, Ludicolo, and Simisear, making it an excellent gluemon. Anomaly, its colossal bulk allows it to eat a bunch of hits that you wouldn't expect it to take such as +1 Z-Hyper Beam from Lilligant, Icicle Crash from Specially Defensive Alolan Sandslash, and U-turn from Scyther. Guzzlord also has great coverage between Fire Blast, Hammer Arm, and Heavy Slam, which further augments its wallbreaking prowess by being able break through bulky Pokemon like Alolan Sandslash, Audino, Type: Null, and Carbink. Guzzlord also likes current metagame trends with Mesprit being omnipresent, Simisear rising in usage, and Clefairy's usage being at an all-time low (even though it can beat clef with heavy slam). Overall, I think that Guzzlord has a lot going for it right now and that putting it in A+/ S- would adequately reflect its place in the current metagame.

D -> UR
Dusknoir has seen 0 usage and doesn't really have a place in the current metagame with Froslass and Sabeleye being the better spinblockers and way more useful in general, and considering the fact that Dusknoir cant do anything that Golurk can't accomplish other than cripple things like Tangela/ Quagsire with Trick, which doesnt warrant it being ranked imo. Even with CB, Dusknoir is still very underwhelming and piss weak and with Guzzlord being back, this thing is even worse.
 
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INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Guzzlord has been in the tier before and I don't think its coverage for banded is good enough even with the little better attack stat.

On the special side it kind of wants draco, sludge, fire move, dark pulse, but really wants knock also and can't really afford a slot if a team mate can't make the play for him. It's amazing he can basically option select because either You always dark spam or play a 50/50 on draco/coverage and if they run something where You actually might wanna ask should I flamethrower or sludge wave on their stay in or switch You kind of wanna double to something that can hurt slash+fairy. Looks like easy teambuilding but I'm pretty unconvinced it can really keep that pressure in the meta with smart saving of assault vest pivots that can abuse him back+serious late game sweepers

Could see A at highest for now, just think S- is extreme for something that's been in the tier outclassed by longnecker before

Damn Pu wild, say it's a amazing cause it can braindead spam draco/dark pulse team preview, unless they force a pulse 50/50 or flat out have a vest user and people mad I overhyped it at A
 
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UberSkitty

Assist Skitty was too broken for NDUbers
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Well I haven't talked here in a while so shut up and sit on the couch cuz daddy's here to teach a lesson on Mr. Fuzzy Guzzy Guzzlord

Guzzlord: A+
Guzzlord is the most recent drop in PU, so it definitely has potential to go up or down due to the meta still adapting to it. However, for the moment Guzzlord is a top offensive threat, with its great offensive typing and ability to hit hard while simultaneously having an amazing defensive presence. Its typing lets it check various offensive threats like Jellicent, Lilligant, and Mesprit, and even coverage moves like Choice Scarf Mesprit's Dazzling Gleam can't pick up the OHKO with on certain Guzzlord sets with its enormous HP stat. Speaking of sets, this mon is versatile as frik. Dragonium, Choice Specs, Assault Vest, Life Orb, and Lefties are all examples of items Guzzlord can hold. I'd say that is one of the largest selling points for Guzzlord at the moment, especially with it being much less predictable at team preview like mons like Mesprit, albeit it doesn't have as much utility. It also has the downsides of being slow and getting competition from Drampa, so I wouldn't say its as high as S- material, but I'd also say its higher than A material. So overall, this mon has been off to a great start, and I'd say it's a solid A+ mon. Until we ban it xddd

Oh yeah here are just my thoughts on some previous noms
Agree: Ludicolo to A-, Dusknoir to UR, Crabominable to B+, Eelektross to A, Abomasnow to A-
Disagree: Bellossom to C+, Exeggutor to D
 
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Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
hi, quickly reacting to the previous posts and sharing my opinions:

-Guzzlord to S- : guzzy is literally what PU has been in need of: a great spdef tank able to deal with lilligant, rain sweepers (ludicolo notably), eelektross, and the rising simisears and victreebels. Along with gurdurr, mesprit, skuntank and sandslash alola, it's one of the best defensive-utilty mons, and it is more than likely to heavily outclass drampa as a dragontype due to a better typing, a much better movepool and set variety. Great or not at breaking, idk, maybe insane carzy guy is right and guzzlord will end up making 5050s to actually kill mons. But I want to point out at the defensive side of the thing (you can't miss it, it's one very fat thing), especially AV guzzlord that I believe to be its best set (taking +/- 50% from +1 Z beam from lilligant, whereas non AV offensive sets take more than 80%. I will go more into detail when I'll have used it more, but I just think AV guzzlord is gonna be the go-to spdef tank in most PU teams, and i personally found it super splashable at teambuilding level tbh.

-Sandslash to S-: I think it's time to stop saying sandslash is overhyped. Hypes don't last for such a long time, and sandslash is one of the top3 PU mons atm imo, along with mesprit and froslass, both in terms of tournament usage and viability/splashability. It's just the nicest PU glue, and deserves to rise.

-Maybe don't drop bellossom any further, access to moonblast gives it an actual niche over lilli and victreebel since the former two can't really damage AV guzzlord. Bello is still bad, but guzzlord being here makes it suddenly a bit better.



I know all this S, S- stuff is awkward. But as I said in another post, pokemons such as skuntank, sandslash-A, and now guzzlord, are invaluable at teambuilding level, and although they might be exploitable (unlike mesprit and froslass which always do what they wanna do, and lilligant which is unique at sweeping), they provide the team with so much role compression, free up teambuilding considerably and define teamstructures, in a nutshell, they have become or will become (guzzlord) defensive/utility metagame staples.
That's why I think pokemons like skuntank, sandslash-Alola and guzzlord justify the existence of the S- rank, that I view as a "defensive utility rank", which makes sense in a PU tier overwhelmed by the amount of usable breakers.
Also putting them in S would not to overload the S rank and distinguish them from other A+ mons, which are either too exploitable (oricorio exploited by stealth rocks+Zbeam lilli, walled by regirock, lanturn, losing momentum vs eelektross) or not splashable enough, despite being rewarding when used (stoutland, requires solid fighting countermeasures, aggron/costa/omastar checks, fast partners for speed control, resists to common typings like water grass elec).
 
I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion (and as you can see I'm a bit biased) but hear me out on this one:


Masquerain - Unranked to C/C+

Masquerain is in my opinion a true force to be reckoned with and one of the best leads and sweepers in the metagame. I think a lot of the hate it recieves stems from improper/lack of usage. Masquerain recieved a +20 boost to its Spa and Spe stats in Gen 7, making it, together with Intimidate, Quiver Dance, Sticky Web and a diverse special moveset, a top offensive/support threat. Its exclusive combination of Bug, Flying and Water attacks is unresisted by the entire meta. Like every mon in the meta it has its share of flaws, including 4X weakness to Stealth Rock, mostly limiting it to a lead role, and it has trouble with priority users (Lycanroc), AV users (Eelektross) and weather setters that can easily KO it through its sash (Aurorus), but once boosted it can KO some of the top threats in the metagame, including Lilligant, Aggron, Hitmonchan, Persian-A and Mesprit just to name a few, and can deal serious damage to very bulky mon that are generally hard to deal with, including Shuckle, Mudsdale and Regirock. At the hands of the right trainer it can wreak havoc on opposing teams.

Adding it to the rankings could greatly increase its usage and as much as I enjoy surprising unaware opponents with it, I believe it deserves wider recognition for its worth.

To back up my claims, here are replays of just a few of the 6-0s, almost 6-0s and forfeits I have achieved with offensive lead Masquerain, taking advantage of hazard setter leads to set up, Intimidating physical attackers and burning them with Scald, flinching stallers with Air Slash or simply KOing with a supereffective move:


Edit:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-889434676
Masquerain boosts on lead, taking out an Oricorio-G and leaving big dents in Mudsdale and Lanturn before fainting, and thus making late-game cleaning an easy chore. Rocks are easily cleared right after Masq faints.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-886573146
Masquerain cannot always attempt to sweep early-game, as seen here being taunted by Froslass; However, with the help of hazard removing from teammates, Masquerain can also function as a mid/late game sweeper as seen here, easily sweeping top-tier threats. If not for Toxic damage, Masquerain could have gone all the way.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-888761117
Not reflective of a typical lead, but reflects the great potential Masquerain has in checking PU's newest threat. After one Quiver Dance boost, Masq walls Guzzlord's strongest STAB and proceeds to OHKO it (well, if not for the sash) with Bug Buzz.
I have updated the original post with more relevant replays that better reflect Masquerain's abilities against viable teams.

I originally nominated Masquerain to climb all the way to C/C+ mainly since I see it as much more viable than many of the mon currently ranked on these levels, although I think maybe nominating it lower is more realistic as a first step. What do you guys think?

Regarding Guzzlord, there's no denying its sheer force, bulk and versatility make it a top-tier threat, although I would propose ranking it slightly lower than previously suggested, somewhere around A/A-. While not many a mon dare countering it, its rock-bottom speed tier and defensive typing make it easy to check by a wide range of mons so I don't think it has a very large impact on teambuilding. Also, the mere presence of a Fairy type on the opposing team greatly limits its prediction abilities.
 

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