Metagame USUM RU Metagame Discussion

Mega sceptile is so hard to pin down. Its pretty lackluster in some respects, as it cant deal with most walls effectively. But this mon can absolutely TEAR through offense and some bulky offense with absolutely no trouble, as it can effectively threaten the most effective spinner and premier mega of the tier and pressure damn near anything with leaf storm. the reason it is so good imo is the ability to run anything on the last slot. protect is the best, imo, to bait scarfers waste pp and mind games. but yet again, certain mons like bronzong are able to tank most attacks, and need heavy support to deal with these mons is kinda deterring. The meta should settle down more, but I think it might still be too good.
 

JustoonSmitts

I draw stuff for a living
is a Top Artistis a Contributor to Smogon
I feel like Mega Sceptile is a pretty manageable Pokemon in RU. Yeah, it can storm through a team if unprepared for, but it can't take a hit to save its life. There are a lot of answers to it here. Offensively, we have stuff like Yanmega, Golisopod, Donphan (Ice Shard, boys), Raikou with HP Ice, and Scarf Noivern. Defensively, we have lots of good Steel-types like Bronzong, Registeel, and Metagross, as well as stuff like Florges and Roserade, which eats Leaf Storm and OHKOs it with Sludge Bomb and Moonblast. Goodra can come in on Leaf Storm, survives Dragon Pulse from full, and OHKOs it with Draco Meteor.

So yeah, for the first RUBL suspect, I think we can handle Mega Sceptile. Let's give it a home in RU.
 
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned much but probably worth noting in terms of whether or not a mon is too much for a tier is it's splashability, and Mega Sceptile doesn't come across as being good at that. With Blastoise being the most dominant mon in the tier taking up the mega slot a lot of the time and other grasses such as Roserade, Virizion and Shaymin running around, Sceptile faces some fairly good competition for those roles and needs teams built around and can't just be thrown on willy nilly.
Not calling it bad by any means- it does good work when played and built around well. But given it has solid checks/answers and it isn't a widespread dominant mon you can just slap on a team and make it better that I too feel it could come back to the tier and be just fine.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Hello,

Mega-Sceptile to me seems from 2 points too much for the RU tier:
First off all its speed tier, its speed tier is undoubtly excellent, 145 base speed lets it outpace the entire RU tier outside of certain scarfers, but even they have to hit a certain speed tier to outspeed it with Scarf.
Second points is his versatility, it is able to break though its usual checks with another move in its slot. The versatility is incredible and it can run a lot of moves from EQ to Leaf Blade to Dragon Pulse, to HP Fire, to Leaf Storm and even a boosting move for a physical set.

The points I think, which makes it able to stay is that it looks more busted on paper than it actually is, we are used to running scarfers (in each tier are a good variety of mons, which can be used as scarfers so has RU), it is also pretty fragile with its Grass/Dragon typing as this typing allows that a good pletora of RU mons hit it at least for neutral damage. Salazzle recently has risen up in usage again and Sickist mentioned a Scarfset at Victim of the Week, which I think is pretty useful, Bronzong also is a good check, Florges too. It also can't come in on a lot of pkmn due to this typing.
It also is relatively weak to priority moves such as Ice Shard and Extreme Speed, especially with Rocks up and layers of Spikes.

I think Mega-Sceptile is not per say unhealthy for the tier, but I think it is worth to mention its speed tier and the versatility.

I'm a bit iffy on wether it should stay or not.

Thanks for reading.
 

EviGaro

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Super Moderator
Fairly short thoughts but might as well post something:

- Sceptile's speed is still amazing, and in the rush to largely be critical of it - understandably so, if you think it really does have a place in the tier - we tend to forget that it has fairly unique attributes worth paying attention to. However, admittedly the fact that it's faster than some scarfers isn't as nerve-wracking as it used to be.
- That being said, Sceptile does fit a fairly interesting role as a scarfer that can largely give you an advantage over other scarfers. While I've seen protect mentioned as a way to get past Golisopod's First Impression, it's also an extremely valuable tool to force scarfers to reveal their hand and put you in a better position. For example, a Houndoom being forced to HP Ice on the revenge, a Sludge Wave from Salazzle, what if Garde wants to get cute and wisp the Metagross, or Flygon wants to defog, those kind of things. Oddly enough, in that role it was more useful to me than a pure offensive breaker.
- To finish on the speed note, it is worth noting that "a scarfer that can switch moves" is the main sticking point about Sceptile, and probably where it can lead to uncomfortable conclusions. Personally, I am more than fine exploring this in a formal suspect, I don't think it breaks the mon anymore, but again it's the point that to me is where the debate will fall.
- However... it's not really versatile, or at least not optimally versatile. SD is cool in a uh oh situation, but then it's really not all that more threatening than Virizion who has an item slot, the right stabs and potentially the right coverage, on top of a better defensive typing and far far far superior bulk without really compromising on the speed in this metagame. I do think we'd see SD somewhere down the line if it's freed obviously, maybe in Big Tour Games™, but when building it requires too much concessions to adapting it to beat specific things... And really for more consistent results I'd just go with what it does best and adjust.

Imo that's the best Sceptille set:

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
- Leech Seed / Earthquake / Hidden Power Fire

I personally prefer Leech in that last slot, since it combines quite well with Protect and somewhat helps your team with recovery. Think a Metagross that rarely can pull off a healing item, for example. However, both EQ and HP Fire are fine options there. EQ being good for Salazzle especially and HP Fire guaranteeing 2hkos on a Metagross and stuff. Stabs are pretty mandatory I think, just by the makeup of the tier, and Focus Blast is bottom 5
 

Pinboim3

Rain days are the worst
Before talking about Mega Sceptile I want to thank the RU council for taking the initiative of making a big wave of retests of the RUBL mons. After the tier shifts that completely changed tier, our metagame developed a lot and become very offensive and Pokémon that were once top tier began to fall and other Pokémon rose and started to take their places. Almost all the Pokémon the will be tested were in the tier with the meta being really different, so it only makes sense to see how they do in the present metagame. I hope that other tiers look at the approach RU took as an example and try to do it as well.


Almost everything has been said about the mon in question but I will try to give my opinion shortly.
Mega Sceptile now founds itself in a different place from when it was banned. As people have already stated it is a pretty underwhelming Pokémon. Don't get me wrong it's not a bad mon, it just isn't what we expected it to be and it doesn't add too much to the meta while it's always good to have new mons in the tier. It's advantages lay mainly on its speed tier. Being faster than 80 base speed scarfers is very good, just like Evi said, even though Houndoom, Salazzle and Noivern are rising in viability and usage as scarfers too. It also has very good offensive stats in both sides, being able to run Special Attacker or SD. It's typing doesn't help it too much, since it gives only more weaknesses in addition to its poor bulk, which is also a major problem, and it only let's you hit dragon-types super effectively. It also is outclassed by Roserade, which has more perks, with Spikes, Poison-type, Technician, being able to have Life Orb or Z. Virizion is a better option for a SD user, because it has a much better typing and access to Close Combat and Z-move.
In conclusion, this Pokémon is still decent/good because of the qualities everyone mentioned before while it faces strong competition and has a couple of flaws but I think it's not too much for our current metagame to handle.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
Ban: none
Unban: Arifeen, aim, evigaro, mraldo, eternally, phantom, averardo, col49, cryogyro, feliburn
abstain: ajna

The council has voted overwhelmingly to unban Sceptile-mega. Thus, mega sceptile has passed phase 1 and will move on to a public suspect in phase 2. Special thanks to aim, averardo, and cryogyro for taking part in the rotating council vote. NP thread will be up soon. Locking this in the meantime.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.

The council will now move on with the next retest. Reuniclus will be allowed on the ladder for one week. After that week the council, alongside a few rotating council members, will vote to determine its fate. If you'd like to be part of the rotating council, make sure to participate in the discussion. Reuniclus was originally banned due to its CM z-thunder set, which had limited counters and was difficult even for offensive Pokemon to overpower. Has enough changed for Reuniclus to bring it down from RUBL? Feel free to discuss below! This retest period will end on May 17th @ 11:59 PM EST.

tagging Marty to unban Reuniclus from the RU ladder. Thanks!
 
I went into this expecting to hate Reuniclus's presence, but having used it a bit, reflecting on my experiences, and reading what others have said, it's... really not that bad. Conventional offensive teams have a fair number of ways to limit what 2-attack sets (which is definitely the more consistent variant) can do; Blastoise's strong Dark Pulse alone makes the mere act of getting to +2 difficult, and the likes of Golisopod must be attacked proactively if you hope to accomplish anything. Reuniclus's miniscule Speed means it's constantly on the back foot; any turn it goes for Calm Mind or Recover is a chance for the opponent to get a strong physical attacker or other check in and wail away. It's not at all like Raikou, which can boost on a forced switch to smack slower counterplay, of which there's a lot, for free. If Reuniclus wants to get past sources of pressure, they must be attacked with effective coverage on the switch or, if a boost is necessary, after taking a hit first. The former requires good, often risky predictions, while the latter will typically leave Reuniclus weakened and vulnerable anyway. Even when I did manage to sweep once, it was only because my opponent failed to recognize the threat in time and pressure it appropriately, and I ran out of Recover PP due to the decently strong hits I was taking while getting the necessary boosts. So far, it looks like Reuniclus rewards users for planning and execution while testing opponents' ability to pressure.

The component of this matter I'm still unsure about is Reuniclus's impact on bulkier teams, a matchup I've yet to see in action. They already have a tough enough time solidly accounting for all of RU's threats, and a Pokemon that mandates strong direct attack is a harsh addition to the list. Perhaps adaptations can be made, but that's a "wait and see" kind of topic that I cannot make decisive statements on yet. None of my opinions are final, that's for sure, I just want to see discussion get moving cause this Pokemon is a much more interesting case than Sceptile.
 
Reun seems like a good mon to me, yet far from broken. It has a few pretty good mus vs fat shit, but for the most part no one's using that right now, meaning that you're typically facing teams that have adequate counterplay vs it. It usually gets a set up opportunity or two, but nowhere near as easily as it did when it was initially banned. Mons that offensively pressure it and thus keeps it from setting up are more common than ever, and it isn't as hard to revenge anymore either. I've been trying out a variety of different CM sets, obviously packing STAB/CM/Recover in the first 3 slots, but changing between Shadow Ball, Focus Blast and Thunder as the 4th, as well as experimenting with different items, such as Electrium Z, Lefties and Life Orb. Thus far Elec Z seems to be the most reliable set, but the other ones seem alright as well. I have yet to try out OTR, but I would imagine that it would do just as well as as CM, considering how offensive the meta is right now.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-907827654
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-907839495
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-907981054

These are three replays in which it did the most work. The main reason for that is my opponent's lack of skill, rather than Reun itself actually being an overbearing threat.

In the first replay my opponent had only one that let it set up, being Slowbro. Everything else pressured it really badly. He also had ways of revenging it, even when set up. However, due to his ignorance, he let me set up a free cm, get rid of one of his two biggest threats to my Reun post set up - Drapion, and then went on to let off the pressure, letting me recover for free. After that, he goes into his other big threat to Reun, Tsareena, and Knocks instead of going for Pwhip, letting me chip him for "free". I then get it back in on Bro to recover thx to his lack of foresight.

In the second replay my opp sacks his Salazzle vs my Noivern for no reason, letting me get up Tspikes and stall his team out with Umby/Regi/Reun. He then let me set up to +4 for free, in spite of having a Modest Stoise in the back. If he played this MU well I wouldn't be able to do much, as between Champ/NP Lazzle/Stoise, I really lack counterplay. However, bc he played it so poorly, I got an easy win.

In the third replay I changed my team a little, both bc of my issues with the mons i faced in the last replay, as well as the fact that I autlost to Linoone at preview. This is the one game I've had where it actually would have done well, regardless of the skill of my opponent. Its MU is great in this game, as it is able to set up on Rotom, Donphan and Diancie, and walls Ampharos if it has a CM up. Yanmega and Araquanid are still able to pressure it post set up, but Araquanid will get whittled in the process of fishing for a def drop with Liquidation and Reun can switch out to reset its stats. Yanmega gets 1v1d by everything but my Reun and Tang, and takes a lot of chip from LO + hazards. Additionally, my Giga always comes in one it at least once a game. So in the end, my Reun can always win this game if I just play it half-decently.

As for the rest of the games, it mostly just kinda sat in the back. I faced a TR team once where it did alright, but it wasn't even the main reason I won. A different mon like for instance Necro would have done a lot better, making it a much easier W for me (as his mons outslowed my Reun under TR anyway). Idk, it's like a good mon, but doesn't feel broken at all. In the 23 games I played with it, it won the three above, did ok vs a TR team and then didn't do much in the other 19 games. The one loss I got to Linoone can't be blamed on Reun, but rather the team, yet regardless, autowinning 1/23 games and being a wincon in two others isn't all that crazy at all. If I wre eligible to vote, I'd vote DnB in a heart beat.
 
Reuniclus is broken. This will be a theoretical argument rather than an empirical one, since ladder data at this point is a pretty poor gauge of how Reuniclus will be adapted to and perform in the tournament scene imo.

I'll begin by listing the bullet point reasons why Reuniclus is too good for the current metagame before elaborating on them

1) It's far too versatile to be consistently accounted for in building
2)Its natural stat distribution means it is simply a very reliable source of value (in tandem with reason #1)
3)The metagame has several favorable elements (spikes viability, limited Steels,...) which allow Reuniclus to perform at full potential

Regarding the first point, the best way to access Reuniclus' likely sets is to look at which sets have performed in other tiers in the present and past. The best, most consistently favored set has arguably been the CM varaint. However, it is in my opinion, that this is not the best set for Reuniclus in the current metagame. There is a wide variety of powerful attackers, like Pangoro, Golisopd, and Escavelier which are all relatively easy to fit checks to this that have been able to adapt somewhat easily to Reuniclus presence. I believe the choice many players are making to evaluate this set has caused them to underrate Reuncilus' potential as a whole, by underrating the potency of Reuniclus' other combined sets. That is not to say that Reuncilus' CM set does not pose a threat in the current metagame, or that some future variation, akin to Z-Toxic, may be able to disrupt the meta. It is, however, to say that I think there should be more focus on Reuniclus' OTR, AV, and other offensive sets. I've had limited testing opportunity, but OTR Reuniclus has proved to be very nasty indeed. With spikes up, it is able to easily clear through offensive teams using Metagross as their Steel-type with a little chip, it can be adapted to pick Recover/HP Fire, so as to seamlessly 1v1 Registeel and Bronzong, while beating Reuniclus, and can opt for other surprise metrics like Thunder. AV is able to switch into Slowbro and Special Attacking Grass-types and punish absolutely anything with its attack paired with coverage. There is no safe switchin to any Reuniclus set, and Reuniclus can comfortably fit coverage to hit most of the metagame within four slots. This segues into the 2nd point above, in that Reuniclus generally does not need to set up and sweep to do significant damage given its combination of power and coverage. Even if OTR can not sweep a whole team, it is seldom the case that it can not manage to take out a least one Pokemon if played well, and maintained at full health. There is almost nothing in the metagame which reliably OHKO's it, and just about nothing that does not lose to, or is not seriously taken advantage of by a given set. This natural ability multiplies with Reuniclus' unpredictability to create the volatile effect it has on the metagame. Now add in the plethora off offensive abusers in the metagame, like Roserade, who can break down teams for it, and it becomes hard to see why most teams wouldn't want to be using this thing. When any Pokemon hits that level of saturation, it tends to be bad for the metagame. Further, Reuniclus is unlike the last Pokemon, Blastoise, which heavily saturated the matagame, in that (as mentioned before) it is supremely versatile. While Blastiose had limited viable sets once the metagame started adapting to counter it finally, the sheer volume of Reuniclus sets all but guarantee it will remain an unavailable and mutant pathogen, ever present in the metagame. The risk of its introduction is therefore to high. I encourage other council members (and anyone in a potential suspect), to look past any initial underwhelming impressions, and towards the long term, when accessing how such a Pokemon would affect the metagame.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
I don't feel I'm in any position to say whether or not Reuniclus is broken or not as of right now, but I can provide some theoretical counterarguments against the theoretical arguments given by KW.

Regarding the first point, the best way to access Reuniclus' likely sets is to look at which sets have performed in other tiers in the present and past. The best, most consistently favored set has arguably been the CM varaint. However, it is in my opinion, that this is not the best set for Reuniclus in the current metagame. There is a wide variety of powerful attackers, like Pangoro, Golisopd, and Escavelier which are all relatively easy to fit checks to this that have been able to adapt somewhat easily to Reuniclus presence. I believe the choice many players are making to evaluate this set has caused them to underrate Reuncilus' potential as a whole, by underrating the potency of Reuniclus' other combined sets.
While it may be true that it could be broken based on other sets, the reason it initially got banned was primarily because the meta at the time (which favored slow setup sweepers a lot more than the current one) couldn't handle its Z-Thunder set. If it is true that the current meta doesn't struggle with that to a degree where it's deemed broken, then the main reason why it initially got banned is gone. With that in mind, I don't think it's

That is not to say that Reuncilus' CM set does not pose a threat in the current metagame, or that some future variation, akin to Z-Toxic, may be able to disrupt the meta. It is, however, to say that I think there should be more focus on Reuniclus' OTR, AV, and other offensive sets. I've had limited testing opportunity, but OTR Reuniclus has proved to be very nasty indeed. With spikes up, it is able to easily clear through offensive teams using Metagross as their Steel-type with a little chip, it can be adapted to pick Recover/HP Fire, so as to seamlessly 1v1 Registeel and Bronzong, while beating Reuniclus, and can opt for other surprise metrics like Thunder.
idk how you think you're beating Registeel with HP Fire, but ok. OTR does seem dangerous since it does have a decent amount of versatility and I think Psychic + Focus Blast + Thunder/Shadow Ball hits just about everything in the tier hard, but it doesn't get a lot of easy setup opportunities and it has a limited time window to sweep in, which makes it less than infeasible to stall it out through a combination of clever switches and Protect stall. Golisopod also revenge kills it, Sitrus variants only need very minimal chip to guarantee an OHKO. Whether or not this is enough counterplay to prevent it from being overwhelming remains to be seen, it does seem to do a number to Metagross teams without a Golisopod in theory, but I don't think any serious assessment of this is possible without empirical evidence to back it up.

AV is able to switch into Slowbro and Special Attacking Grass-types and punish absolutely anything with its attack paired with coverage. There is no safe switchin to any Reuniclus set, and Reuniclus can comfortably fit coverage to hit most of the metagame within four slots.
I'm not too impressed by this, I don't see how an AV set would pull an extraordinary amount of weight in this meta when most of our popular special attackers hit it hard enough to offset Regenerator damage by a fair margin. If we compare it to, say, AV Slowking (a viable but fairly uncommon pick atm), we find that it doesn't seem this Reuniclus set is all that much better. It does come with a markedly higher SpA stat, but as far as coverage goes it's Fighting coverage vs Water STAB + Fire and Ice coverage, as far as utility moves go one has Dragon Tail and one has Knock Off, Slowking has higher special bulk while Reuniclus has more physical bulk, and in terms of defensive typing Slowking comes in on Metagross and Fire types while Reuniclus has an easier time with Grass types (but you don't switch in comfortably on any of them either way). Let's also not forget that unlike other Reuniclus sets, this one is vulnerable to hazards and Toxic. Doesn't seem all that crazy, at the end of the day you struggle to take care of Registeel since you're relying on a 70% accurate move to damage it and it can just Toxtect your ass. Surprise factor also isn't that big since the moment you switch Reuniclus in on an attack or simply into hazards your opponent knows what's up.

This segues into the 2nd point above, in that Reuniclus generally does not need to set up and sweep to do significant damage given its combination of power and coverage. Even if OTR can not sweep a whole team, it is seldom the case that it can not manage to take out a least one Pokemon if played well, and maintained at full health.
"Just play this Pokemon well and keep it healthy and it will put in work" is an argument you could use against just about any viable Pokemon. I don't particularly see the problem with a Pokemon being great if its user isn't an idiot, I would be more concerned if somebody could bring this thing and play it like shit and still win because it's that hard to deal with.

There is almost nothing in the metagame which reliably OHKO's it, and just about nothing that does not lose to, or is not seriously taken advantage of by a given set. This natural ability multiplies with Reuniclus' unpredictability to create the volatile effect it has on the metagame. Now add in the plethora off offensive abusers in the metagame, like Roserade, who can break down teams for it, and it becomes hard to see why most teams wouldn't want to be using this thing. When any Pokemon hits that level of saturation, it tends to be bad for the metagame. Further, Reuniclus is unlike the last Pokemon, Blastoise, which heavily saturated the matagame, in that (as mentioned before) it is supremely versatile. While Blastiose had limited viable sets once the metagame started adapting to counter it finally, the sheer volume of Reuniclus sets all but guarantee it will remain an unavailable and mutant pathogen, ever present in the metagame. The risk of its introduction is therefore to high. I encourage other council members (and anyone in a potential suspect), to look past any initial underwhelming impressions, and towards the long term, when accessing how such a Pokemon would affect the metagame.
I don't see how it's beyond doubt that Reuniclus will be as versatile as you claim it will be, for all we know it may turn out that CM sets remain the way to go or that OTR is the only truly worthwhile set. Reuniclus had this same supposed versatility before we banned it and in practice it ran defensive CM like 90% of the time because that simply was the best, most splashable set by a long shot. Futhermore, it is generally accepted that when we make tiering decisions we do it based on the currently known facts about the metagame, not on speculation about hypothetical future metagames. If in these weeks we can't find sufficient evidence that Reuniclus is unmanageable in this metagame, it should be unbanned. If it then later turns out to be unmanageable after all, we ban it again.
 
(brief) theoretical counterarguments to theoretical counterarguments

While it may be true that it could be broken based on other sets, the reason it initially got banned was primarily because the meta at the time (which favored slow setup sweepers a lot more than the current one) couldn't handle its Z-Thunder set. If it is true that the current meta doesn't struggle with that to a degree where it's deemed broken, then the main reason why it initially got banned is gone.
Well ofc, the meta is so dissimilar from when this thing got banned any attempt at comparison is almost absurd. Considering, it was an earlier metagame, however, it is in general likely that disregarding specifics, the power level was higher, and thus more difficult for Reuniclus to function in than the current meta

idk how you think you're beating Registeel with HP Fire, but ok. OTR does seem dangerous since it does have a decent amount of versatility and I think Psychic + Focus Blast + Thunder/Shadow Ball hits just about everything in the tier hard, but it doesn't get a lot of easy setup opportunities and it has a limited time window to sweep in, which makes it less than infeasible to stall it out through a combination of clever switches and Protect stall. Golisopod also revenge kills it, Sitrus variants only need very minimal chip to guarantee an OHKO. Whether or not this is enough counterplay to prevent it from being overwhelming remains to be seen, it does seem to do a number to Metagross teams without a Golisopod in theory, but I don't think any serious assessment of this is possible without empirical evidence to back it up.
By slapping on Recover. The presence of Golisopod is a good point I will grant you, however, as you might imagine, there is potential for sets to abuse that too.

"Just play this Pokemon well and keep it healthy and it will put in work" is an argument you could use against just about any viable Pokemon. I don't particularly see the problem with a Pokemon being great if its user isn't an idiot, I would be more concerned if somebody could bring this thing and play it like shit and still win because it's that hard to deal with.
I argue that it is more extreme with Reuniclus (agree or disagree). I think it requires almost no play making ability to consistently net at least a kill with.

I don't see how it's beyond doubt that Reuniclus will be as versatile as you claim it will be, for all we know it may turn out that CM sets remain the way to go or that OTR is the only truly worthwhile set. Reuniclus had this same supposed versatility before we banned it and in practice it ran defensive CM like 90% of the time because that simply was the best, most splashable set by a long shot. Futhermore, it is generally accepted that when we make tiering decisions we do it based on the currently known facts about the metagame, not on speculation about hypothetical future metagames. If in these weeks we can't find sufficient evidence that Reuniclus is unmanageable in this metagame, it should be unbanned. If it then later turns out to be unmanageable after all, we ban it again.
The main point I really want to dispute. Reuncilus' potential for versatility is something that can be aptly observed by looking at the current metagame. Further, its versatility doesn't mean that it is broken because it could be all of 20 different sets at preview (although this could be the case), but rather because it is able to use the inherent advantages it has a mon to always be able to abuse the metagame. And, let's be realistic here. This meta isn't getting revisited. If Reuniclus is unbanned, there is a 90% chance its unbanned forever, regardless of how it performs in the future. That's why I think we ought to be careful and considering these bans with a higher threshold, given how late it is in the metagame.
 
Seeing how I've thought of it in other areas before, I wasn't excited to see Reuniclus allowed here. But the more I see it, the more I feel like it could be hard to set up with, seeing everything that could deal things to it before it can set up, another hand of being auto walled by darks such as Mandibuzz, Drapion, Umbreon, or haze defensively if you’ve stuck with triple setup. I've seen or used it enough to see that along with these, and offenses like golisopod or Yanmega, it's not gonna be the quickban worthy thing people saw it as at the start, along with its nearly non existent speed stat making it even harder to be threatening outside of trick room. While it has potential to shut down a decent chunk of things, they most likely include passive offense like machamp with knock off, flygon in general, donphan, espeon and shadow ball, gardevoir, or Virizion, not to mention hyper offenses in tyrantrum just meant to break things. I’m seeing things saying reuni is broken, when I see a lot of answers to it and generally not playing horribly around for the most part. Yeah it has a decent defensive typing, stats, and trick room teams, but I feel like trick room would just stick with what I’ve been seeing in offense. I could change if I see it vs more teams, but for now I’m realizing it’s solid, but takes work to set up with and not unstoppable until you end up choking a game.
 
Last edited:

JustoonSmitts

I draw stuff for a living
is a Top Artistis a Contributor to Smogon
175536

**art is mine**

So with Mega Sceptile, I knew almost immediately that that Pokemon wouldn't be much of an issue in RU in spite of its crazy looking stats. Reuniclus, on the other hand, is really hard for me to pin down. Yeah, it seems busted because it has insane power and is hard to break between Calm Mind, Recover, and Magic Guard. Magic Guard allows it to act as a status absorber and negates Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil. Calm Mind Z-Thunder still hits just about everything in the metagame for neutral damage. Then again, it can be worn down since almost everything in RU is faster than Reuniclus. Also, Golisopod exists and fucks over any Trick Room set (why was that bug ever considered bad in RU? Lol).

I don't know exactly what to make of this suspect... I feel like I'm a bit more towards ban but if it was unbanned, I would understand.
 
Last edited:
I've been playing and experimenting with reunicluss for a few rounds varying between different sets that caught my attention, CM + Z thunder / Focus, Mono attack with acid armor and even a set specs going crazy.
And I must say that from personal experience, reuniclus is a very complicated pokemon to understand. I explain.
In the theory is a pokemon that at first looks very strong, able to do set up and act as an overwhelming threat but in practice this is much more difficult than it should be. Against offensive teams Reuni has to think twice before deciding whether to do CM or attack because the simple fact of wanting to put 2 CM is already a challenge, not to mention that there will be occasions when Reuni will not do anything and will only be a dead weight in front of certain MUs, and in fact I had some battles in which I only used Reuni to receive Machamp's attacks, from there on I did not do anything about the pressure exerted by the rest of the team.
On the other hand against bulky teams Reuni tends to do a little better but I only had 3 battles against this type of teams, of which 2 of them touched me vs porygon shadow ball so Reuni again did nothing lol.
The variant Acid Armor as it usually makes good combination with mons who use toxic spikes has the consolation that the rival has to take care of his checks of reuniclus if there are tspikes put in the field although the rest suffers from the same as the variant of 2 attacks .
Specs is quite fun to play because if the opponent changes to his check to avoid that Reuniclus uses CM believing that it is the set he is wearing, he can suffer great damage if he uses the correct move and combines well with pokes that have roar or dragon tail if you choose to use future sight.
In conclusion, I do not think that Reuni is an overwhelming threat as it was at the time, the metagame evolved enough to adapt to it and current trends does not favor it much, but maybe it's just a matter of time to find the best set. Even so, Reuni has the arguments to stay in RU.
 
Last edited:

feen

control
is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
RU Leader
The council will now move on with the next retest. Mega Slowbro will be allowed on the ladder for one week. After that week the council, alongside a few rotating council members, will vote to determine its fate. If you'd like to be part of the rotating council, make sure to participate in the discussion. Mega Slowbro was banned due to having very high Defense and access to Shell Armor gives it tremendous potential to be a dangerous CM setup sweeper. Has enough changed for Mega Slowbro to bring it down from RUBL? Feel free to discuss below! This retest period will end on May 25th @ 11:59 PM EST.
 
Since there is currently no discussion here, who worse to start some than myself? When I first look at slowbro, I notice how many unique sets it can have to really break the metagame. Just to list them off before I go over them: 2 atk cm, scald/block/cm/rest, 1 atk/cm/iron defense/slack, offensive TR, and lastly any kind of set that utilizes rest instead of slack w/ setup (lacking block.) I think easily the least threatening set here would be offensive TR. it doesn't quite have the firepower of reuni, and the lack of LO surely hurts. This isn't something I'd imagine many people are going to utilize.

That aside, I can see a combination of the other sets existing problematic for the tier. It really doesn't need to run a ton of def, similar to m-lix, because of its' monstrous defensive stat of 180. This allows you to dump most or all of your EVs into spdef/hp. +1 Slowbro with 252hp/spdef bold takes 83-98 from LO roserade leaf storm. after that you're stuck in a bad spot, because it can easily just slack off and not fear any crits. If you're unlucky enough to switch your grass type roserade into a +0 slowbro while trying to apply offensive pressure and it psyshocks, it OHKOs even bulkier variants of rose that have hp. Shaymin fares a little better in that you have the chance to drop spdef but like, if you LO seed flare a +1 bro with those EVs listed above, you're doing 65-77 if you even hit. On top of that, if it's packing ice beam it does 70-83 before your own LO recoil. any prior damage on shaymin p much guarantees a ko. if it has fire blast then it's an insta ko after lo recoil, and slight chance of it ohkoing even from 100. Viriz is so pitiful vs slowbro that I didn't even wish to discuss it. standard physical viriz does 31-38 with leaf blade, 41-49 with LO. 87-104 with psyshock, again on a mon that is very easy to chip since it loves to switch into stuff like knock off, etc. Now that I've covered the grass types (except scept but i included her in the calcs below lol woops. p same boat as rose except worse off), I wanna cover some other random calcs you might have questions about. This is calced at +1 spdef mind you, as i find it's incredibly easy to get a cm up vs a lot of the meta.
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 282-332 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Solar Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 116-138 (29.4 - 35%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 156-186 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Noivern Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 143-169 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Some mons I didn't include here that DO deal with it really well on the special side are specs yanmega, specs ribombee, m-amphy and i guess specs raikou but like who is using that lol. yanmega and ribombee dont or come really close and die in return to +1 uninvested bro. most of the mons I calced are 2hkod/ohkoed by +1 slowbro. some die to +0. psyshock is probably more useful damage output in this meta than scald. While I haven't touched on it nearly as much, physical attackers don't fair that well vs +0 bro either. Metagross, toxicroak, zydoge, aero, rhyp, scarf tyrantrum, donphan, sneasel, machamp, sawk and other notable physical presences in the tier don't fair very well. To put some perspective in the air, +2 bewear breakneck blitz doesn't ohko. +2 barb continental crush averages 75%. Some physical threats that are VERY offensive and stab super-effective can manage, but definitely not as a direct counter and only as a check. I'm sure by now many of you are thinking "but nat, can't I just toxic this with one of my physical threats and call it a day? Heck, why can't I just use bronzong or registeel to throw out a tox???"

This sounds good on paper, but in reality is an awful solution potentially. Let's say you go registeel or metagross and throw off a tox on slowbro. ok great. now what if slowbro has the exact same set listed above, except now it's rest instead of slack off? what if you let it get to +2 or +3 while you feel comfortable toxing it, only to just see it rest and be this uncrittable superblob? It could even do this with 1 attack and iron defense, just to really be annoying. This isn't even covering block variants. Good luck winning after your registeel slash zong slash cress slash p2 / diancie / florg / gastro / vap / toad you sent in to counter slowbro just gets blocked and setup to +6 on. vap/toad/gastro/ (if it isnt curse) also just gets pp stalled while slowbro has some leftover pp to try to clean up the game.

Obviously there are ways to outplay and outmaneuver megabro. I'd never try denying that. taunt can work wonders depending on the mon using it. There are a few other mons that can act reliably as a check while maintaing offensive pressure to bro. I just feel there's enough going on with this that it isn't at all healthy for the tier. This doesn't solve any issues we're having overarching trouble with, and if it does it adds more problems than it creates. I'm sure there is some stuff here I didn't even talk about that easily can add to why slowbro isn't a good fit in ru, like how you can pair it with something that handles the few things that give it serious trouble, which would be natural in any competitive team composition. Truthfully, I feel as if this is the most broken thing on the resuspecting course. I'd be very sure to use this on most teams if it was ever freed, as it's just so ridiculously good vs too much.

As I often do, I kinda just let the words flow out of me and could be mistaken somewhere, so try to go easy on me with theoretical counterarguments and other mumbo jumbo.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
Hello,

183px-Sugimori_080m1.png

I think Mega-Bro is a bit too much for RU for very obvious reasons:

1. Its bulk is incredible with 95 HP / 180 Defense / 80 SPdef. I feel like the bulk added with its amazing ability in Shell Armor, which prevents any crits on Mega-Bro are just a bit too much. Also as Nat stated above with his calcs, after a +1 with a Calm Mind, there is barely a pokémon, which can break through Mega Slowbro without a own boost. Mega-bro can just tank it away after a +1 with its own Calm Mind and can either Slack Off or put out a strong Attack into the enemies direction. And To be honest none of the Above pkmn wants to switch into nor stay into a strong +1 Spatt boosted STAB or coverage option. (Imma come back to this point in the second point).
Furthermore Mega-Slowbro doesnt need to Mega instantly when it doesnt have to Mega, so it can keep Regenerator (which on its own is already a good ability alone) until it can safely Mega evolve. Regenerator also adds to (Mega)-Bros bulk as it allows it pre-mega'ed to basically do the same job as his non-mega'ed version just with a Mega Stone attached on it.

2. Useful moves and even more Useful Coverage options are also a point, which on its own, should'nt be underestimated. It can run a lot and I mean a lot of offensive moves and coverage options and the wide variety of moves, which it can run Going basically from A to Z, it can even go so far and support itself and the team with either Thunder-Wave or Toxic to whittle down the opponents team or cripple it immensly. It can even lead to the point where you might think pkmn X or pkmn Y from my team checks this Mega-Bro variant safely that the 4th moveslot will catch you off guard and your check gets either heavily weakened, crippled or you find out during the game, that or so called check to Mega-Bro isnt a check any longer, due to a coverage option.

3. the Typing itself is also very good being Water/Psychic and with many fighting pkmn running around in the RU-Tier right now, Slowbro-mega would have it reletaively easy to come in on a lot of situations. Sure we have had many metagame changes in the past, but Slowbro-Mega I feel would change the metagame drastically with its presence alone. I think teambuilding structures would change and evolve around Slowbro-Mega to automatically check it with 1 and a half mon at least (why? points stated above with moves + coverage options).

I don't wanna say Mega-Bro is broken per say, but I think it could have an unhealthy trade to the tier. Sure there are ways to play around it, but it will change the RU-tier completly and I think it could change the metagame by itself alone.

I think in my conclusion I would lean more towards BAN of this pkmn.
 
Last edited:

JustoonSmitts

I draw stuff for a living
is a Top Artistis a Contributor to Smogon
176546

**art by me**
The more I play with Mega Slowbro, the more sure I am that this hippo-crab-otter-thing is broken.

At first, I figured that Mega Slowbro would be fine since we also have things like Raikou and Sceptile to keep offensive and Calm Mind sets in check. It's also very slow and vulnerable to Toxic. Then I noticed several things. For starters, its bulk is absolutely insane! Between its 95 HP / 180 Def / 80 SpD and Shell Armor, this is a difficult Pokemon to take down that will warp how we build teams. Every team is going to need an answer to this threat. And to top things off, Slowbro itself can wait until the time is right to Mega Evolve since it can perpetually keep itself healthy with Regenerator and it sort of resists Knock Off. Mega Slowbro also has a wide movepool to go along with its great stats that allows it to have a plethora of sets it can run such as Calm Mind, Tank, Pure Offensive, Trick Room, and Defensive, making it almost impossible to predict what its set is going to be. And if you think Toxic is the definitive answer to this Pokemon since it seems to lack a reliable way to deal with status, may I introduce you to Block Mega Slowbro:

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Block
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Scald

This set will trap any possible defensive Pokemon that thinks that simply poisoning it with Toxic will wear it down. From there, Slowbro can set up Calm Mind against these Pokemon and can heal off any damage done to it with Toxic. From there, it is nearly impossible to take down thanks to its elephantine bulk and Shell Armor protecting it from critical hits.

Yeah, I'm not okay with this dropping. Keep it in RUBL.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Hello, I'd like to discuss my opinion on Mega Slowbro in the metagame. This is one of my first posts in this kind of thread, so please let me know if I'm misinformed about anything or any part of my argument is wrong.

I'm going to start off by talking about regular Slowbro. Slowbro has skyrocketed in viability over the past half year or so thanks to its ability to pivot into and check many threats while maintaining a decent amount of offensive presence in comparison to other bulky waters, notably Milotic, being highly appreciated in the metagame, which in large part was because of the large shakeup caused by the January tier shifts, but that's besides the point. I want to touch on Slowbro's pivoting capabilities, as I believe it is a large reason as to why I don't think it's a healthy presence.

As mentioned earlier, Slowbro has decent offensive presence alongside a colorful movepool(which I'll get into later), and great physical bulk combined with Regenerator, making it stand out stronger than its competitors in other bulky waters. In practice, the combination of these traits means that Slowbro is noticeably less pressured to recover than other defensive mons and forfeits momentum less often. With that said, it's not hard for Slowbro to pivot into and consistently check what it is supposed to throughout the game, and can outlast its checks. While this alone does not necessarily lead to grounds for a ban, it leads me to my next point, that being an analysis of Mega Slowbro.

While Slowbro must hold off on mega evolving more often than not to preserve its pivoting capabilities, the significant increase in physical bulk and notable increase in firepower offered by Mega Slowbro makes it that much more difficult to check and opens up the door for sets that in my eyes push it over the edge in combination with its traits. In my time of using Megabro on the ladder, I utilized a spread of 252 HP/80 Def/176 Sp Def with a bold nature(I'm on mobile rn so please excuse the lack of an import, yes, there's probably a better spread) and used three attacks, CM two attacks, CM mono Scald sets with rest, block, and both rest and slack off, and Double Dance sets with either rest or slack off. The set I found most effective was CM/Scald/Slack Off/Rest since it maintained Slowbro's ability to pivot into most physical threats and recover if it needed to, while allowing it to mitigate the otherwise crippling effect of toxic. The rarity and/or lack of viability in things like Mantine, Milotic, and Vaporeon boosts the viability of this set further, despite these losing to block sets in the first place. Even though all of these sets are something regular Slowbro can pull off, the incredible physical bulk of Megabro makes the CM sets in particular that much more effective-even though I went with a specific EV spread to avoid the 2HKO from Insect Plate Golisopod's Leech Life a fair amount of the time and non specs Raikou at +1, MegaBro's physical bulk means fully investing in special bulk is very practical and makes stuff that would check it well on paper such as Roserade shaker checks after a boost since bro can slack off the damage and effectively force it out. Sure, stuff like Stoise and Golisopod can still pressure it, and bro won't always be at full health, but given how pressed on average these two are to perform other roles(removing hazards, checking offensive threats, etc), and their vulnerability to being worn down(despite leech life, pod's rocks weakness and tendency to pivot into stuff like zygarde and gross on top of revenge killing stuff and stoise's obvious lack of recovery) means they can't be relied upon as primary checks. The great possibility of three attacks sets means the likes of Shaymin and Mega Amphy can't switch in more than once, and, once again, the tendency of these mons to pivot into attacks/their lack of recovery means that they're liable to being put in range of a coverage attack.

Tldr: The combination of regular bro's ability to pivot and stay healthy, it's mega evolution possessing immense physical bulk increasing the effectiveness of double dance/block/tank sets while potentially allowing for special investment to face off otherwise threatening special attackers after a boost, the lack of viability of checks to certain sets, and the liability of many of its checks to being blasted by coverage and worn down throughout a match means that it is very difficult to consistently pressure, and I believe this will lead to unhealthy measures in teambuilding that ruin consistency in other match-ups. Keep Mega Slowbro banned!
 

feen

control
is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
RU Leader
The council will now move on with the next retest. Stakataka will be allowed on the ladder for one week. After that week the council, alongside a few rotating council members, will vote to determine its fate. If you'd like to be part of the rotating council, make sure to participate in the discussion. Stakataka was banned due to straining offensive teams too much because of its TR set. Has enough changed for Stakataka to bring it down from RUBL? Feel free to discuss below! This retest period will end on June 1st @ 11:59 PM EST.

Tagging Marty to ban slowbronite and unban stakataka in the ladder.
 
Hello, I want to discuss a little bit about the state of Stakataka in RU and how, in my eyes, he effects the metagame for the worse.

Stakataka, who was previously banned in RU, is being reintroduced into a metagame that I believe is fairly stable and one of the best that RU has seen in some time. The main reason Stakataka was banned before, and should remained banned now, is due to its ability to shut down entire teams as well as play styles with next to no effort. Offensive teams (including HO teams and anything else) are shut down completely by this mon alone. If Stakataka gets a trick room up, you are forced to sack 4 pokemon just because you wanted to run an offensive build. Not only this, but Stakataka doesn't need to be supported by any other trick roomers and can simply be ran on a balance build and run through teams single handedly.

In terms of counters, there really aren't any. Bronzong can eat all of Stakataka move, the most being a Stone Edge that would take around 22%, but unless running Earthquake, which most Bronzong don't run if you want to be able to Toxic stall or scout for moves with Protect, can't do anything in return. Earthquake Bronzong provides practically the only reasonable counter, yet still gets chunked if hit with a z-move after a beast boost, meaning that it's not only rarely seen, but can also still lose to Stakataka. Other than Bronzong, no tanks can switch into it unless taking around 50%, meaning it's getting a beast boost if you want to switch something in safely. Slowbro, the only other potential counter, takes around 33% to Stone Edge and can hit Stakataka with a scald dealing around 55%, yet this is assuming that Slowbro hasn't been damaged at all (yes Slowbro gets Regenerator but if it's also taking a different member of the team, might not be at full health afterwards). However, with a z-move, Stakataka can deal a solid 60% after an initial 30% which means that Slowbro dies after Stealth Rock damage. Also, with a beast boost, Continental Crush deals around 90%, meaning Slowbro also dies after rocks.

Here are some relevant calcs
+1 252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 330-388 (83.7 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 77.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 169-201 (44 - 52.3%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 213-252 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Stakataka Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 345-406 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Most defensive pokemon, other than Slowbro and potentially Milotic, aren't able to poison or hit Stakataka in return, and if they can, they can't kill him in one shot, leaving Stakataka prone to kill it and get a beast boost (Unless you depend on the 30% scald burn, in which case you are betting everything on 30%). Every other mon isn't able to take a hit, or can but can't switch in or dies when Stakataka is +1.

All this being said, Stakataka would ruin everything RU has going on right now. You would be forced to give up certain playstyles, run certain mons in order to counter him, or run him yourself and hope that you win the speed tie, and in turn, win the game. Everyone would practically be forced to use or at least dedicate a pokemon to stop Stakataka as best you can. Stakataka is way too unhealthy and would just be able to dominate RU. Let me know if there was something I missed or that we can further discuss, I'd be more than happy to.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top