Doesn't Toxicroak get dinged by HP Fire by Venusaur because of Dry Skin?
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USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter Hilomilo
- Start date
- Status
It only takes an extra 25%, I think. It won't eat boosted HP Fires in succession, but it can take one or two and then start retaliating with Gunk Shot.
Please don't drop Mega Slowbro. It's the only Pokemon that counters Mamoswine, Heracross, Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape, Suicune, Lucario, Mega Aero, Talonflame and many many more in one slot while also serving as a wincon. Being "hard to build with" sounds a lot like the player's problem and not the Pokemon's. This thing puts in work in a lot of the games its in and does see decent tournament usage. Just because it's not a popular ladder mon doesn't mean its bad. If anything it should rise, but B+ is criminally underrating it.
Side note, Gligar should be ranked somewhere in C. It's a nice anti-Manectric tech (except for those who forgot to update their builder) that also walls some Fighting-types like Terrakion and offers hazard control with SR or Defog. It'll obviously never come close to replacing Gliscor but it is worthy of a rank now that it's gone.
Lastly, free Houndoom to B+
EDIT: When was the last Megahorn Heracross you've seen, and Mega Slowbro can be EV'd to live +2 Grass Knot.
Side note, Gligar should be ranked somewhere in C. It's a nice anti-Manectric tech (except for those who forgot to update their builder) that also walls some Fighting-types like Terrakion and offers hazard control with SR or Defog. It'll obviously never come close to replacing Gliscor but it is worthy of a rank now that it's gone.
Lastly, free Houndoom to B+
EDIT: When was the last Megahorn Heracross you've seen, and Mega Slowbro can be EV'd to live +2 Grass Knot.
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I feel defensively this this is outright outclassed by swampert, but what I really like about it is it’s offensive rocks set. It has an interesting speed tier, and has decent bulk uninvested. Sure it’s not the best mon out there, but it still has a decent niche. And sorry I’m on mobile right now this coulda been a lot more thorough.Seismitoad to D
You know Heracross can run Megahorn and Infernape Grass Knot, right?
Seismitoad to D
Oh boy, the big nom. So a bit of a backstory of Seismitoad is coming up. Long ago in the UU tier before the existence of Breloom, VoltTurn ran rampant with Washtom being the face of the archetype. Seismitoad then began to see usage because it possessed a niche as a sr setter over Swampert because it could hard counter Washtom and do an ok job against the rest of Volt turn with Water Absorb and that amazing Water/Ground defensive typing. Seismitoad eventually got enough usage for it to rise from NU to UU in the next shift. Unfortunately, Washtom rose to OU in that shift as well. Seismitoad began to struggle to have any sort of purpose or niche in the UU tier. It does have Water Absorb, but Swampert has decent offensive stats to match its nice bulk and phasing. Today, I don’t think that Seismitoad has any sort of niche in the tier. Swampert has begun to fall out of favor and anything that Seismitoad accomplishes, Swampert does far better. Seismitoad might honestly mislead new players with it being in C imo. RK9 has been looking pretty lonely in D. Let Seis join him.
But yeah those are my noms for slightly post Mega Venu suspect. Enjoy!
wow i haven't posted here in a while
I would like to post in defense of Seismitoad. While it did get worse after Venusaur dropping, I believe it still has enough of a niche to keep it out of D rank. Seismitoad has two major things over Swampert: Water Absorb and speed. Water Absorb allows it to check non-Psychic Starmie, Volcanion, Primarina locked into a Water move, and probably more I'm forgetting. This is one of the main things that separates it from Swampert, which would normally fold to these mons. And yes, HP Grass Mane rising hurts it a lot, but this point can also be applied to Swampert. As for its speed, while it was more useful in Breloom meta, can still be useful to have. Outspeeding Scizor and luring it with HP Fire is huge for certain teams.
All and all, Seismitoad should absolutely stay C for the moment. It's certainly not as trash can as Arcanine is.
also rank gligar
People have already come to the aid of Seismitoad but none of them have quite gone into the detail I'm about to.Like everyone else said, some of these noms will be kind of dependent on Mega Venu staying but I’ll show you what I got.
Terrakion to A+
I know that Terrak rose to A in the last slate but I consider that A is too low for it. It is such a versatile and splashable mon for bulky offense and balance builds. Lead Hazard Setter, CB, SD, Rockium, Double Dance, and Choice Scarf are all viable options that Terrak can run. Do I also have to mention how limited it’s defensive counterplay is (thanks faded for seeing the use in Pallo). I sometimes think that Terrak puts an even bigger constraint on teambuilding than Mega Venu. I’m always making a team, and then I’m like, “Oh shit this team gets 6-0ed by Terrak.” A is just underselling to how massive of a threat Terrak is and it should rise.
Toxicroak to B-
Really cool mon atm. Almost always sets up in front of Mega Venu if it’s using its standard set and on its partners that are not named Scarf Krook. Also too many players seem to forget that Toxicroak has Dry Skin which means Suicune and Tenta are both set up fodder for Croak. Also Sucker Punch cheeses Starmie, another mon that’s gotten better in this meta. Croak is a really solid sweeper if played correctly.
Mega Slowbro to B+
Mega Bro is definitely a very threatening mon when played correctly, but this mon has had little to no usage. It’s usually seen on stall and it’s not even a go to pick for it. It’s awkward to fit Mega Bro on any other archetype because of how much of a momentum drainer it can be after it mega evolves. Tbh I’ve found base Slowbro to be more reliable than Mega Bro.
Seismitoad to D
Oh boy, the big nom. So a bit of a backstory of Seismitoad is coming up. Long ago in the UU tier before the existence of Breloom, VoltTurn ran rampant with Washtom being the face of the archetype. Seismitoad then began to see usage because it possessed a niche as a sr setter over Swampert because it could hard counter Washtom and do an ok job against the rest of Volt turn with Water Absorb and that amazing Water/Ground defensive typing. Seismitoad eventually got enough usage for it to rise from NU to UU in the next shift. Unfortunately, Washtom rose to OU in that shift as well. Seismitoad began to struggle to have any sort of purpose or niche in the UU tier. It does have Water Absorb, but Swampert has decent offensive stats to match its nice bulk and phasing. Today, I don’t think that Seismitoad has any sort of niche in the tier. Swampert has begun to fall out of favor and anything that Seismitoad accomplishes, Swampert does far better. Seismitoad might honestly mislead new players with it being in C imo. RK9 has been looking pretty lonely in D. Let Seis join him.
But yeah those are my noms for slightly post Mega Venu suspect. Enjoy!
Seismitoad has found sets since it's rise to UU to set it aside from Swampert. You already mentioned water absorb, but a water immunity is a big deal in the tier right now. many pokemon are running scald, with Empoleon, Tentacruel, Suicune, Specs Primarina, and Starmie being 5 mons in particular that are showing off dominance among waters in Venusaur meta. Seismitoad checks all of these quite reliably except for debatably Starmie and Prim. (If it switches in an an analytic hit from Star or a moonblast from Prim it might take an annoying amount of damage.) It also differentiates itself with the special offensive set with sludge wave, which while not as potent as it was in Loom Meta and the general grass meta that started to develop in the wake of Loom's ban, is still a fairly decent set and a niche it can exercise over Swampert.
What Seismitoad can do in this meta:
Like I said, this mon has a solid matchup against most of the good water types right now. Empoleon, Tentacruel, and Suicune especially, who usually rely on scald (And Toxic, in the case of Empoleon) as their primary damage dealing move. Seismitoad can easily come in and set rocks in the face of these mons because of this, and even check Empoleon and Tentacruel somewhat effectively by threatening a super effective earth power. being able to switch in on the devastatingly strong water STABS of Starmie and Primarina is another bonus. In addition, Seismitoad checks some other prominent meta trends right now, handily defeating Rotom-H (Who doesn't run HP grass as often as Mega Manectric) and Aqua Tail Aero-Mega, who has been a massive source of heartache for mons like Hippo and Rhyperior. It also persists at being one of the best Volcanion checks on the VR, holding a resistance to it's dual stab combo while being able to threaten it back with earth power. While Volcanion isn't in the greatest position right now, this is still a valid niche. It also checks Scizor much more effectively than Swampert on it's offensive set, being able to run HP fire at times or a STAB Z-move to outspeed it, resist bullet punch, and blow Scizor away. Seismitoad also makes a fantastic partner to the one and only Mega Venusaur. It takes scalds so that Mega Venusaur doesn't have to, removing one of the easiest ways for bulkier teams to whittle at Venu's health over an absurdly long period of time. It also handily checks Tentacruel, a water type often used to wall and/or chip at Venusaur-Mega in this meta, and Empoleon, a partner to other Venusaurs and a mon used often to rock in Venusaur's face. It also very much tempts electrics now carrying HP grass to let it loose instead of volt switching, letting Venusaur come in on Mega Manectric. It also forms a very nice defensive core with Venusaur, as Venusaur resists it's only weakness extremely handily. The last point is the offensive set brought up in the beginning of the post and by other people. While it's not the grass-luring monster it was in Loom meta, since shifts (re)introduced 2 grass types that don't particularly care if it has a decently strong sludge wave or ice beam or HP fire waiting for them, it's still a nuisance that can do a good bit of damage to a number of steels and grounds or at least threaten them out. And it still lures many non-poison grass types like Celebi and Rotom-Mow, who's clinging to relevance by virtue of it's Z-dream eater set.
All in all, Seismitoad is still a decent tank with a defined set and a defined niche in the meta that lets it handle certain meta trends of the moment and partner up with relevant mons, and should not be unranked/D-rank for this very reason.
While GK is definitely a viable move on Nape for hitting Swampert, Hippow, Rhydon, and other water/ground types, Megahorn is pretty rare move on Hera outside of Scarf variants because of the usefulness of Knock Off and Facade. Without KO it can't touch Ghosts, without Facade it loses out on a nice spammable answer to fairies, M-Venu, Psychic types, and Moltres. Megahorn in particular comes with some big downsides because it makes life easier for Moltres, Togekiss, and anything else that abuses Bug/Fighting's kinda crappy cross-coverage.
Also, neither of these moves outright beat megabro, who KO's back with a psychic STAB:
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Megahorn on Guts Heracross is bad. I’ve tried running it before using Megahorn / CC / Facade / Swords Dance with the idea of pairing it with a Pursuit user to compensate for the fact that I no longer hit ghosts, but on the ladder particularly you just face Slowbro so little that the vast majority of the time it’s a wasted moveslot. You see it a little more in tournaments but the fact is that it will still be an underwhelming pick the majority of the time. If there’s ever an explosion in Mega Slowbro stalls then it might be ok but right now it’s something I really wouldn’t recommend using.
Togekiss is probably one of the most annoying Pokemon in the tier atm. It's ability to check a plethora of threats like Hydreigon (bar Specs with Flash Cannon), Krookodile and to threaten Venusaur-Mega with Air Slash is pretty cool. I don't know why it should drop.
Since the rise of Gliscor, Manectric-Mega is trully amazing. It can now run HP Grass which allows it to threaten Swampert, Quagsire, Rhyperior but also Mamoswine which is really nice. I've seen people use Signal Beam and it's decent coverage that can mess with Krookodile, Hydreigon, Latias and hit Celebi harder than Flamethrower or Overheat. Volt-Turn is really good atm and Manectric-Mega is better than ever.
I'm on the fence for Chandelure's drop. Even if it's struggle with the really common Krookodile, Bulletproof Kommo-O and Hydreigon, it's still a huge threat that can mess with a lot of Pokemon while being able to check threats like Cobalion or Scizor.
The metagame isn't in favor of Slowbro-Mega at all. Volt-Turn is really common and Venusaur-Mega is everywhere and can deal on its own with Slowbro-Mega most of the time. Empoleon is also really common and Slowbro-Mega struggles a lot versus it while also being weak to Hydreigon which is everywhere atm.
Hazards Stacking Offense with Sharpedo-Mega are super threatening and I definitively think that this 2 Pokemon should rise as a result. I don't have much to say, Spikes Offense are just really good and other players already explain my thoughts.
Metagross is better with Venusaur-Mega in the tier and is a pain to deal why since it has some good coverage. Clear Body is usefull especially versus Intimidate users like Manectric-Mega and Krookodile.
Like Metagross, Reuniclus enjoys this metagame even if Dark Types are common. I've been using CM Z-Focus Blast and it does the job versus Balance (**wink wink** Adaam) and Stalls.
Venusaur-Mega is everywhere so everybody is prepared to deal with it and Amoonguss struggles a lot because of that. Is definitively not as good as it was before.
Toxikroak is an anti-meta Pokemon atm. Being able to come on Scald and to threaten Venusaur-Mega is a super nice niche and I agree with a rise.
I agree at 100% Adaam's nomination. Kommo-o should rise. It's one of the best offensive answer to Venusaur-Mega thanks to its typing and Bulletproof and can mess with a lot of team whatever is set is. Mixed Lead by BobTheBro is amazing but DD, SubBD and SD sets are also good.
I tried Zydog and it's a pretty fun mon to use atm. It can deals with Manectric-Mega because most of them run HP Grass over HP Ice now and it can spam Thousand Arrows pretty easily.
Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake / Toxic
Zygarde-10% @ Dragonium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
On the topic of low ranked Pokémon, Omastar should be placed in either C/C-. I've scoured the depths of PU to look for a Flying resist that is both not a mega and can punish Moltres spam. As you know, bird viability is at an all-time high, so it is getting harder and harder to get away with no resists or something like Doublade as the sole check. This is where Omastar comes in. Having a Spiker that can take advantage of every single bird and threaten common removers is real nice. Unlike Klefki it has an offensive presence outside of Thunder Wave, can beat Emp/Tentacruel with Earth Power, and doesn't drop to Moltres.
The set I run:
Omastar @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 20 HP / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
The Speed lets you outspeed Mega Manectric at +2 from Weak Armor. Shuca Berry is to tank an EQ to get the speed boost and proceed to set up multiple layers or kill what's in front. It's funny as fuck to eat an attack from Mamo and then counterattack with Spikes up. Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-786871119
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-786829010
The set I run:
Omastar @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 20 HP / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
The Speed lets you outspeed Mega Manectric at +2 from Weak Armor. Shuca Berry is to tank an EQ to get the speed boost and proceed to set up multiple layers or kill what's in front. It's funny as fuck to eat an attack from Mamo and then counterattack with Spikes up. Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-786871119
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-786829010
Right, now that venu's gone, I'd like to weigh in on shit. Not in the mood for any text walls, so I'll be as concise as possible.
should stay A+
This mon is still one of the best fairies in the tier, and its sheer versatility, especially considering the rising popularity of Babiri Flamethrower and Fightinium Z sets that let it lure and/or bypass its offensive and defensive answers, definitely makes it as excellent a pick as ever for offensive and balanced teams alike. Its main downside, in my experience, is its inability to accurately check Latias as a Fairy-type if running twaveless or dgleamless sets, but this is a flaw shared by many fairies in the tier and it's something that can very easily be patched up in the teambuilding process. Togekiss is excellent, keep it a+. Also, as much as I hate to admit it, Scarf is alright rn.
should rise to A+
This one's a bit of a no-brainer. With the freedom to run HP Grass/Toxic/Signal Beam and the loss of one good (albeit not electric-immune) answer in Mega Venusaur, Mega Manectric is better than it's been since it dropped. It has the tools to break past or otherwise cripple most of its offensive and defensive answers at this point. It definitely deserves to have its A+ position back.
should stay A-
This mon is still pretty good. The loss of Serperior made Choice Scarf a less popular choice, but SubCM sets have never been better, to be honest. It's still an excellent Scizor check and stallbreaker for offensive teams, and it really likes Flame Body right now to punish a lot of the Pokemon it checks (like Scizor and Cobalion) and a lot of the Pokemon that check it, as well (like Pursuit users, for instance). Chandelure is still on the same level as, if not better than, Gengar, and this should be reflected in the Viability Rankings by keeping them in the same rank.
should drop to B+ (yes, this is mega slowb's afd sprite)
Is this Pokemon still an excellent physically defensive pivot? Yes. Does it have the tools to differentiate itself from other bulky Water-types? Of course. Does that mean it should stay A-? No, I don't think so. Mega Slowbro, despite bringing its own solid niche, faces a LOT of competition from other bulky waters like Suicune right now and the additional opportunity cost of inhaling the Mega slot doesn't help its case. For that reason (as well as the rising popularity of Mega Sharpedo, Hydreigon, and Mega Manectric) I think Mega Slowbro should drop to B+.
should rise to A- and
should rise to A+
Spikes offense is excellent again with Mamoswine back in the tier, and just plain old Sharpedo hyper offense is also excellent, from experience. Sharpedo's viability is definitely at an all-time high, and Klefki is a good part of that. Therefore, they should both rise. Simple as that.
should drop to C+ or maybe C even
...Boy, the hype sure died down on this one. I can't think of a reason to use this Pokemon over something like Nasty Plot Infernape or Mega Houndoom, seeing as those two at least aren't 2HKOed by Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch from full. Throughout my entire building process this past few months, I have not found a single reason why I'd want to use Salazzle on any team. Its frailty is its biggest downfall, truly.
should drop to C-, but should not be D rank
Seismitoad's niche is rapidly evaporating, sure, but it still has enough to keep it in "better than Arcanine" territory. I'm talking specifically about the offensive set—unlike the other Water/Grounds or offensive Ground-type rockers in the tier, Seismitoad is capable of revenge killing Scizor with HP fire and punishing Pokemon like Volcanion, Starmie, and Primarina much better than Swampert can due to Water Absorb and its Speed tier. I agree, however, that defensive Seismitoad is basically unviable. It should definitely only drop to C-, in any case.
should drop to B
Mega Venusaur is gone. Serperior is gone. Mamoswine is here, and Klefki's viability is very good. Mega Sharpedo is running Psychic Fangs again, even just to hit Amoonguss primarily. Crobat is obviously out of place in the depths of A-. Its primary niche, as far as I can tell, is being an offensive pivot with Taunt, U-turn, and Flyinium Z. However, that's absolutely not enough to justify keeping it anywhere close to where it is. It has immense difficulty versus most of UU's top threats, specifically Scizor (to an extent), Choice Scarf Latias, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, etc., and the loss of Mega Venusaur truly hit this Pokemon really hard. Drop this to a rank it's more deserving of, B. Not even B+, B. Also, it's a horrible Defogger. Don't use Defog bat if you can avoid it.
This mon is still one of the best fairies in the tier, and its sheer versatility, especially considering the rising popularity of Babiri Flamethrower and Fightinium Z sets that let it lure and/or bypass its offensive and defensive answers, definitely makes it as excellent a pick as ever for offensive and balanced teams alike. Its main downside, in my experience, is its inability to accurately check Latias as a Fairy-type if running twaveless or dgleamless sets, but this is a flaw shared by many fairies in the tier and it's something that can very easily be patched up in the teambuilding process. Togekiss is excellent, keep it a+. Also, as much as I hate to admit it, Scarf is alright rn.
This one's a bit of a no-brainer. With the freedom to run HP Grass/Toxic/Signal Beam and the loss of one good (albeit not electric-immune) answer in Mega Venusaur, Mega Manectric is better than it's been since it dropped. It has the tools to break past or otherwise cripple most of its offensive and defensive answers at this point. It definitely deserves to have its A+ position back.
This mon is still pretty good. The loss of Serperior made Choice Scarf a less popular choice, but SubCM sets have never been better, to be honest. It's still an excellent Scizor check and stallbreaker for offensive teams, and it really likes Flame Body right now to punish a lot of the Pokemon it checks (like Scizor and Cobalion) and a lot of the Pokemon that check it, as well (like Pursuit users, for instance). Chandelure is still on the same level as, if not better than, Gengar, and this should be reflected in the Viability Rankings by keeping them in the same rank.
Is this Pokemon still an excellent physically defensive pivot? Yes. Does it have the tools to differentiate itself from other bulky Water-types? Of course. Does that mean it should stay A-? No, I don't think so. Mega Slowbro, despite bringing its own solid niche, faces a LOT of competition from other bulky waters like Suicune right now and the additional opportunity cost of inhaling the Mega slot doesn't help its case. For that reason (as well as the rising popularity of Mega Sharpedo, Hydreigon, and Mega Manectric) I think Mega Slowbro should drop to B+.
Spikes offense is excellent again with Mamoswine back in the tier, and just plain old Sharpedo hyper offense is also excellent, from experience. Sharpedo's viability is definitely at an all-time high, and Klefki is a good part of that. Therefore, they should both rise. Simple as that.
...Boy, the hype sure died down on this one. I can't think of a reason to use this Pokemon over something like Nasty Plot Infernape or Mega Houndoom, seeing as those two at least aren't 2HKOed by Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch from full. Throughout my entire building process this past few months, I have not found a single reason why I'd want to use Salazzle on any team. Its frailty is its biggest downfall, truly.
Seismitoad's niche is rapidly evaporating, sure, but it still has enough to keep it in "better than Arcanine" territory. I'm talking specifically about the offensive set—unlike the other Water/Grounds or offensive Ground-type rockers in the tier, Seismitoad is capable of revenge killing Scizor with HP fire and punishing Pokemon like Volcanion, Starmie, and Primarina much better than Swampert can due to Water Absorb and its Speed tier. I agree, however, that defensive Seismitoad is basically unviable. It should definitely only drop to C-, in any case.
Mega Venusaur is gone. Serperior is gone. Mamoswine is here, and Klefki's viability is very good. Mega Sharpedo is running Psychic Fangs again, even just to hit Amoonguss primarily. Crobat is obviously out of place in the depths of A-. Its primary niche, as far as I can tell, is being an offensive pivot with Taunt, U-turn, and Flyinium Z. However, that's absolutely not enough to justify keeping it anywhere close to where it is. It has immense difficulty versus most of UU's top threats, specifically Scizor (to an extent), Choice Scarf Latias, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, etc., and the loss of Mega Venusaur truly hit this Pokemon really hard. Drop this to a rank it's more deserving of, B. Not even B+, B. Also, it's a horrible Defogger. Don't use Defog bat if you can avoid it.
okay so
to A+
Agree
This nomination had a lot of potential even before the Venusaurite ban. This Pokemon is extremely fast and an amazing pivot, and it also has really good covering in Electric / Fire / Grass too. HP Grass lets it threaten some of its old checks in Gliscor meta like Swampert and Rhyperior, and it can even opt to forgo Grass-type coverage for several other options like Signal Beam, helping it against Psychic-types like Latias and Dark-types like Hydreigon, and Toxic, letting it punish bulky Pokemon like Hippowdon that switch into it. It also does a lot against defensive teams because it gains a lot of momentum with Volt Switch and can actually threaten Quagsire, the main Pokemon that blocks it.
to A
Disagree
Togekiss is an A+ Pokemon and should remain that way. Its access to a lot of utility options like Thunder Wave, Roost, Heal Bell, and Defog (even if it's kinda bad) let it threaten a ton of different teams even without its offensive capabilities. Flying as an offensive type is amazing right now, and Nasty Plot gives it a great matchup against defensive teams and just a lot of Pokemon that are slower than itbecause Serene Grace is broken. Its typing is really good right now, and taht combined with its bulk allow it to switch into a lot of threatening Dark-types like Hydreigon and especially Krookodile due to its secondary typing. It has a really good matchup agains a lot of Ground-types (bar Rhyperior) too.
to C+
Agree
Salazzle did start to be used on niche teams when Venusaurite was legal due to Corrosion being able to punish it with Toxic. Other than that niche that's now gone, it didn't really have much going. Its offensive typing and power with access to Nasty Plot was nice, but its weakness to a lot of key types in UU like Water and Ground as well as its inability to break some of the more bulky Pokemon of these types makes it mediocre at best. offensively, Fire-types like Nasty Plot Infernape, Volcanion, and even Moltres outclass it, and defensively, its niche of being able to (barely) switch into Venusaur is no longer needed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 122-144 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
to B+
Agree
Mega Slowbro is an incredibly bulky Pokemon and a great defensive wall with access to setup moves like Calm Mind and Iron Defense as well as reliable recovery in Slack Off or a way to deal with status in Rest to give it a good niche in the tier. It's not the most powerful hitter but that's not really a problem with it. The problem with Mega Slowbro and thus the reasoning for the drop is its vulnerability to a lot of top-tier Pokemon right now. Mega Manectric is a lot better following the Venusaurite ban, a Pokemon that clicks Volt Switch extremely liberally with the only drawback being a Ground-type switch-in, Hydreigon has always been good, and Spikes teams with Mega Sharpedo and just Mega Sharpedo alone really threaten Slowbro. The competiton for the Mega slot has always been a problem, with Mega Aggron often being more useful on the team archetypes Slowbro finds itself on.
to A+
Agree
This nom felt awkward to me for a while, but honestly I think it deserves the rise for sure. Fighting-types got a lot better after Gliscor and subsequently Venusaur left the tier and became a lot more spammable. Most of the Pokemon that can switch into a Close Combat are Flying- or Fairy-types and the former almost always are OHKOed by its Rock-type STAB moves and the latter being severely dented by them. With Earthquake, a Choice Band set has almost perfect coverage and is a nightmare to switch into. Other sets like Swords Dance + Stealth Rock and Swords Dance + Rock Polish are also really great right now, and fear of its coverage forces a lot of Pokemon out and generates free turns. It can be revenge killed rather easily by Scizor and faster Pokemon, but this one downside shouldn't undersell how much of a monster this thing is right now.
to B+
Disagree
This thing really shouldn't drop. Chandelure is a really great way to deal with the rise of strong Fighting-types like Cobalion, and while Scarf became worse, SubCM is one of my favourite sets to use. It can set up on a lot of defensive Pokemon, mainly Blissey due to Toxic immunity with Sub and immunity to Seismic Toss, Amoonguss. and Sylveon, but it can also take advantage of the number of switches it forces from Fighting-types like Cobalion and Infernape and Steel-types like Scizor.With a Substitute up, it's not as vulnerable to Pusuit users so it has the capability to pick off weakened Krookodile and Mega Aerodactyl. It can break through defensive teams really well once set up too with Ghostium Z or it can switch in and set up several Substitutes with longevity from Leftovers.
Nominating Empoleon to A-
I'm honestly surprised why this hasn't been done yet. Empoleon is by far the best it's been all gen, able to check a lot of offensive Flying-types, which are really good right now, being the best Steel-type answer to Moltres as well as checking Crobat, Togekiss, and Mega Pidgeot and Fairy-types like Primarina and even defensive ones like Sylveon, and it can also check Latias and Starmie too, Its defensive typing is really good, and its access to Defog, Stealth Rock, and Roar (as well as Toxic and Protect) make t a great and versatile utility option that fits on a lot of teams. Even though the Venu + Emp + Molt cores are all dead, it's still a really great partner for Moltres (and other Flying-types) due to its ability to be one of the most reliable Defoggers in the tier. It isn't weak to Stealth Rock and uses its ability to switch into a lot of the tier and force them out to keep hazards off. Empoleon is also easy to fit on teams and thus has little opportunity cost for the utility it offers.
Agree
This nomination had a lot of potential even before the Venusaurite ban. This Pokemon is extremely fast and an amazing pivot, and it also has really good covering in Electric / Fire / Grass too. HP Grass lets it threaten some of its old checks in Gliscor meta like Swampert and Rhyperior, and it can even opt to forgo Grass-type coverage for several other options like Signal Beam, helping it against Psychic-types like Latias and Dark-types like Hydreigon, and Toxic, letting it punish bulky Pokemon like Hippowdon that switch into it. It also does a lot against defensive teams because it gains a lot of momentum with Volt Switch and can actually threaten Quagsire, the main Pokemon that blocks it.
Disagree
Togekiss is an A+ Pokemon and should remain that way. Its access to a lot of utility options like Thunder Wave, Roost, Heal Bell, and Defog (even if it's kinda bad) let it threaten a ton of different teams even without its offensive capabilities. Flying as an offensive type is amazing right now, and Nasty Plot gives it a great matchup against defensive teams and just a lot of Pokemon that are slower than it
Agree
Salazzle did start to be used on niche teams when Venusaurite was legal due to Corrosion being able to punish it with Toxic. Other than that niche that's now gone, it didn't really have much going. Its offensive typing and power with access to Nasty Plot was nice, but its weakness to a lot of key types in UU like Water and Ground as well as its inability to break some of the more bulky Pokemon of these types makes it mediocre at best. offensively, Fire-types like Nasty Plot Infernape, Volcanion, and even Moltres outclass it, and defensively, its niche of being able to (barely) switch into Venusaur is no longer needed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 122-144 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Agree
Mega Slowbro is an incredibly bulky Pokemon and a great defensive wall with access to setup moves like Calm Mind and Iron Defense as well as reliable recovery in Slack Off or a way to deal with status in Rest to give it a good niche in the tier. It's not the most powerful hitter but that's not really a problem with it. The problem with Mega Slowbro and thus the reasoning for the drop is its vulnerability to a lot of top-tier Pokemon right now. Mega Manectric is a lot better following the Venusaurite ban, a Pokemon that clicks Volt Switch extremely liberally with the only drawback being a Ground-type switch-in, Hydreigon has always been good, and Spikes teams with Mega Sharpedo and just Mega Sharpedo alone really threaten Slowbro. The competiton for the Mega slot has always been a problem, with Mega Aggron often being more useful on the team archetypes Slowbro finds itself on.
Agree
This nom felt awkward to me for a while, but honestly I think it deserves the rise for sure. Fighting-types got a lot better after Gliscor and subsequently Venusaur left the tier and became a lot more spammable. Most of the Pokemon that can switch into a Close Combat are Flying- or Fairy-types and the former almost always are OHKOed by its Rock-type STAB moves and the latter being severely dented by them. With Earthquake, a Choice Band set has almost perfect coverage and is a nightmare to switch into. Other sets like Swords Dance + Stealth Rock and Swords Dance + Rock Polish are also really great right now, and fear of its coverage forces a lot of Pokemon out and generates free turns. It can be revenge killed rather easily by Scizor and faster Pokemon, but this one downside shouldn't undersell how much of a monster this thing is right now.
Disagree
This thing really shouldn't drop. Chandelure is a really great way to deal with the rise of strong Fighting-types like Cobalion, and while Scarf became worse, SubCM is one of my favourite sets to use. It can set up on a lot of defensive Pokemon, mainly Blissey due to Toxic immunity with Sub and immunity to Seismic Toss, Amoonguss. and Sylveon, but it can also take advantage of the number of switches it forces from Fighting-types like Cobalion and Infernape and Steel-types like Scizor.With a Substitute up, it's not as vulnerable to Pusuit users so it has the capability to pick off weakened Krookodile and Mega Aerodactyl. It can break through defensive teams really well once set up too with Ghostium Z or it can switch in and set up several Substitutes with longevity from Leftovers.
Nominating Empoleon to A-
I'm honestly surprised why this hasn't been done yet. Empoleon is by far the best it's been all gen, able to check a lot of offensive Flying-types, which are really good right now, being the best Steel-type answer to Moltres as well as checking Crobat, Togekiss, and Mega Pidgeot and Fairy-types like Primarina and even defensive ones like Sylveon, and it can also check Latias and Starmie too, Its defensive typing is really good, and its access to Defog, Stealth Rock, and Roar (as well as Toxic and Protect) make t a great and versatile utility option that fits on a lot of teams. Even though the Venu + Emp + Molt cores are all dead, it's still a really great partner for Moltres (and other Flying-types) due to its ability to be one of the most reliable Defoggers in the tier. It isn't weak to Stealth Rock and uses its ability to switch into a lot of the tier and force them out to keep hazards off. Empoleon is also easy to fit on teams and thus has little opportunity cost for the utility it offers.
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I agree with all of these except for bat. One of Bat's better sets outside of it's usual bread and butter was the taunt super fang set, a set more devastating to stall than the usual U-turn pivot set because super fang chunked it's checks and exceptionally fat mons in general. It did the same against a lot of it's offensive answers like Mega Manectric and Aero too. Non-Roost Aero and Mane as a whole really don't like taking 50 just to check a bat. I DO agree it lost a major niche with Venusaur no longer being a dominant member of the meta, but I think 2 whole subranks would be too steep drop for it. I do agree with you on defog bat though, it loses to way too many hazard setters right now to justify it in good faith. Perhaps Bat to B+ would be more reflective of it's current power in the meta, showing that its not quite as strong without Venusaur but still something worth taking a gander at when building.Right, now that venu's gone, I'd like to weigh in on shit. Not in the mood for any text walls, so I'll be as concise as possible.
should stay A+
This mon is still one of the best fairies in the tier, and its sheer versatility, especially considering the rising popularity of Babiri Flamethrower and Fightinium Z sets that let it lure and/or bypass its offensive and defensive answers, definitely makes it as excellent a pick as ever for offensive and balanced teams alike. Its main downside, in my experience, is its inability to accurately check Latias as a Fairy-type if running twaveless or dgleamless sets, but this is a flaw shared by many fairies in the tier and it's something that can very easily be patched up in the teambuilding process. Togekiss is excellent, keep it a+. Also, as much as I hate to admit it, Scarf is alright rn.
should rise to A+
This one's a bit of a no-brainer. With the freedom to run HP Grass/Toxic/Signal Beam and the loss of one good (albeit not electric-immune) answer in Mega Venusaur, Mega Manectric is better than it's been since it dropped. It has the tools to break past or otherwise cripple most of its offensive and defensive answers at this point. It definitely deserves to have its A+ position back.
should stay A-
This mon is still pretty good. The loss of Serperior made Choice Scarf a less popular choice, but SubCM sets have never been better, to be honest. It's still an excellent Scizor check and stallbreaker for offensive teams, and it really likes Flame Body right now to punish a lot of the Pokemon it checks (like Scizor and Cobalion) and a lot of the Pokemon that check it, as well (like Pursuit users, for instance). Chandelure is still on the same level as, if not better than, Gengar, and this should be reflected in the Viability Rankings by keeping them in the same rank.
should drop to B+ (yes, this is mega slowb's afd sprite)
Is this Pokemon still an excellent physically defensive pivot? Yes. Does it have the tools to differentiate itself from other bulky Water-types? Of course. Does that mean it should stay A-? No, I don't think so. Mega Slowbro, despite bringing its own solid niche, faces a LOT of competition from other bulky waters like Suicune right now and the additional opportunity cost of inhaling the Mega slot doesn't help its case. For that reason (as well as the rising popularity of Mega Sharpedo, Hydreigon, and Mega Manectric) I think Mega Slowbro should drop to B+.
should rise to A- andshould rise to A+
Spikes offense is excellent again with Mamoswine back in the tier, and just plain old Sharpedo hyper offense is also excellent, from experience. Sharpedo's viability is definitely at an all-time high, and Klefki is a good part of that. Therefore, they should both rise. Simple as that.
should drop to C+ or maybe C even
...Boy, the hype sure died down on this one. I can't think of a reason to use this Pokemon over something like Nasty Plot Infernape or Mega Houndoom, seeing as those two at least aren't 2HKOed by Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch from full. Throughout my entire building process this past few months, I have not found a single reason why I'd want to use Salazzle on any team. Its frailty is its biggest downfall, truly.
should drop to C-, but should not be D rank
Seismitoad's niche is rapidly evaporating, sure, but it still has enough to keep it in "better than Arcanine" territory. I'm talking specifically about the offensive set—unlike the other Water/Grounds or offensive Ground-type rockers in the tier, Seismitoad is capable of revenge killing Scizor with HP fire and punishing Pokemon like Volcanion, Starmie, and Primarina much better than Swampert can due to Water Absorb and its Speed tier. I agree, however, that defensive Seismitoad is basically unviable. It should definitely only drop to C-, in any case.
should drop to B
Mega Venusaur is gone. Serperior is gone. Mamoswine is here, and Klefki's viability is very good. Mega Sharpedo is running Psychic Fangs again, even just to hit Amoonguss primarily. Crobat is obviously out of place in the depths of A-. Its primary niche, as far as I can tell, is being an offensive pivot with Taunt, U-turn, and Flyinium Z. However, that's absolutely not enough to justify keeping it anywhere close to where it is. It has immense difficulty versus most of UU's top threats, specifically Scizor (to an extent), Choice Scarf Latias, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, etc., and the loss of Mega Venusaur truly hit this Pokemon really hard. Drop this to a rank it's more deserving of, B. Not even B+, B. Also, it's a horrible Defogger. Don't use Defog bat if you can avoid it.
Krookodile A to A+
Okay honestly I have NO CLUE how this isnt A+ yet but whatever lets get into why this broken mon should get into A+
Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge/Crunch
So I'm pretty sure you all know Krookodile's most dominant set is easily Choice Scarf and has other viable sets like defensive rocks with rocky helmet but the main set is scarf. So Krookodile already having pursuit which is already a stupid ass broken move. Krookodile can pretty much switch in into m-manectric if your predicting the volt/t-bolt and can threaten it out with the eq as it outspeeds with the scarf and get an amazing 60% chip if it tries to switch out (if krookodile isnt intimidated). It also helps with other things like M-aerodactyl as aero cant really threaten you without icefang which also is a roll to 2hko and can threaten it out with a stone edge OR you can predict the switch and pursuit get around 50% chip so if aerodactyl has taken rocks damage which is 25% and switches out on the pursuit which is 50% you have a dead aero as rocks is another 25%. Krookdile can also pursuit trap other main things as Chandelure if its locked into shadowball (also lives a flamethrower from sub cm) and can make it into a 50/50 with pursuit which is why I think krookodile is mainly A+ worthy. It outspeeds and traps latias (scarf is an unset) although some run z so knockoff nor pursuit can kill this thing as that is why crunch is an option as most will stay in thinking they will survive whatever krook chooses to attack with but crunch has a chance to ohko which is always nice. Venusaur leaving is also a huge bonus for Krookodile as that was one of the main switchins which could sponge up the eq's and knockoffs due to it having the megastone so venu leaving gives it even another reason it should rise. Now one big reason I think it should rise is krookodile is EXTREMELY easy to fit onto teams whenever I feel that I need a groundtype which most teams should have and need a pursuitter and a scarfer I will usually ALWAYS go with the choice of scarf krookodile.
There's lots of other reasons why krookodile is amazing like how good it is at revengekilling etc but we all know I dont wanna type that much :^)
edit: I forgot knockoff was a broken move/this mons usage is INSANE it got top 5 pretty much every week in UUPL
Okay honestly I have NO CLUE how this isnt A+ yet but whatever lets get into why this broken mon should get into A+
Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge/Crunch
So I'm pretty sure you all know Krookodile's most dominant set is easily Choice Scarf and has other viable sets like defensive rocks with rocky helmet but the main set is scarf. So Krookodile already having pursuit which is already a stupid ass broken move. Krookodile can pretty much switch in into m-manectric if your predicting the volt/t-bolt and can threaten it out with the eq as it outspeeds with the scarf and get an amazing 60% chip if it tries to switch out (if krookodile isnt intimidated). It also helps with other things like M-aerodactyl as aero cant really threaten you without icefang which also is a roll to 2hko and can threaten it out with a stone edge OR you can predict the switch and pursuit get around 50% chip so if aerodactyl has taken rocks damage which is 25% and switches out on the pursuit which is 50% you have a dead aero as rocks is another 25%. Krookdile can also pursuit trap other main things as Chandelure if its locked into shadowball (also lives a flamethrower from sub cm) and can make it into a 50/50 with pursuit which is why I think krookodile is mainly A+ worthy. It outspeeds and traps latias (scarf is an unset) although some run z so knockoff nor pursuit can kill this thing as that is why crunch is an option as most will stay in thinking they will survive whatever krook chooses to attack with but crunch has a chance to ohko which is always nice. Venusaur leaving is also a huge bonus for Krookodile as that was one of the main switchins which could sponge up the eq's and knockoffs due to it having the megastone so venu leaving gives it even another reason it should rise. Now one big reason I think it should rise is krookodile is EXTREMELY easy to fit onto teams whenever I feel that I need a groundtype which most teams should have and need a pursuitter and a scarfer I will usually ALWAYS go with the choice of scarf krookodile.
There's lots of other reasons why krookodile is amazing like how good it is at revengekilling etc but we all know I dont wanna type that much :^)
edit: I forgot knockoff was a broken move/this mons usage is INSANE it got top 5 pretty much every week in UUPL
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Togekiss should stay in A+. If you're left with a team of mons with <80 speed, you have a chance of losing straight up. Aggron, Muk, and Doublade will get flinched down some of the time. Rhyperior has to watch out for +2 All-Out Pummeling. So you're either forced to try your luck with flinches or check it offensively. The Babiri lure set seems to be gaining traction, so Scizor has to be played cautiously if the item isn't confirmed yet.
I support Mega Manectric for A+. No longer can players slap on a Swampert and call it a day. Spdef Hippo still walls but has to watch out for chip since you're taking 35-40% from HP Grass instead of Pert's 20% from HP Ice.
Tentatively support Empoleon for A-. As a rocker it has a good matchup against most of the top defoggers (Latias, Togekiss, Hydreigon, Altaria, Crobat, Moltres), and as a defogger can find opportunities to defog against many teams while checking big threats such as Latias and Primarina. I like the Toxic Protect set to stall Primarina and scout certain choice mons such as scarf Krook and band Scizor. Haven't seen much of the Shuca Berry set, but it could make a return with Mamo moving into the tier. My main reservation is that the flying and psychic spam will probably die down following the Mega Venusaur ban, so Empoleon may not be quite as good as it was during the suspect. I always felt that it was a very good mon even before the Venu drop though.
I support Mega Manectric for A+. No longer can players slap on a Swampert and call it a day. Spdef Hippo still walls but has to watch out for chip since you're taking 35-40% from HP Grass instead of Pert's 20% from HP Ice.
Tentatively support Empoleon for A-. As a rocker it has a good matchup against most of the top defoggers (Latias, Togekiss, Hydreigon, Altaria, Crobat, Moltres), and as a defogger can find opportunities to defog against many teams while checking big threats such as Latias and Primarina. I like the Toxic Protect set to stall Primarina and scout certain choice mons such as scarf Krook and band Scizor. Haven't seen much of the Shuca Berry set, but it could make a return with Mamo moving into the tier. My main reservation is that the flying and psychic spam will probably die down following the Mega Venusaur ban, so Empoleon may not be quite as good as it was during the suspect. I always felt that it was a very good mon even before the Venu drop though.
Sounds rly interesting. I was hoping omastar would be able to switch in once and check the birds but unfortunately it cant. Atleast not with that spread. 252 SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 197-232 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and
252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 123-146 (43 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. More HP does the trick though. 252 SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 197-232 (57.2 - 67.4%). Its so slow without a boost that the speed investment doesnt rly do anything except outspeeding stuff after a potential speed boost. I feel like investing more in HP so it can take one flying hit guarenteed which was the point in the first place is more important. Idk though, havent tested it myself. What do u think?
edit: Actually u still get bopped by z-hurricane intp hurricane after rocks. U have to invest heavily in sp def to take it
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You’re right, it’s Spdef leaves a lot to be desired. I think we can get away with taking some SpA investment to invest more in HP, in which case you can always switch into Pidgeot once. 252 HP / 136 SpA / 120 Spe with a Modest nature let’s you outspeed Latias at +2 and take 42.4% max from its Hurricane. Creeping Pidgeot and Bat are also good if you don’t mind the damage drop. Moltres still can break with the Z-move, so you’d have to bait it out beforehand. At the very least Omastar provides a strong anti-lead since most people lead Moltres to avoid SR damage.
Thanks for the tip, if you can think of a better spread let me know.
oh crap a vr post from drampo hope i don't fricc this up
Tsareena: B- ---> B / B+
The queen has come back to claim her throne. Let's start with the obvious: Mega Venusaur is gone, meaning its hardest counter and main competitor is out of the picture. That's not all though, for there are other meta trends that help it out significantly, such as...
-The loss of Gliscor
-Decline in Crobat and Kommo-o usage following Mega Venu's ban
-Outside of Scald burns, it absolutely ruins Empoleon, hitting it hard with HJK and Spinning its rocks away.
-While it can't switch in at all, the rise of Terrakion gives it another thing it can threaten severely
-Swampert, Suicune and Primarina are also becoming more common with the Venu ban, and guess who kills them all with Power Whip
-With Spikes offense on the rise, Tsareena does a decent job spinning away Spikes in front of Klefki and keeping Sharpedo and Mamoswine from switching in.
Now, to be fair, there are other notable meta trends that work against it, such as Togekiss and Altaria rising up. It also still has some fundamental faults, such as meh bulk and an inability to run everything it wants to, so on that front, I would understand a reluctance to rise Tsareena up further than B. But with that said, it's impossible to deny just how much of a weight has been lifted off Tsareena's shoulders with the Venu ban.
Klefki: B+ ---> A-
Ok, so I'm not the first to make this nom, but I would like to talk to you all about Magnet Rise. I know it's not some sort of brand new incredible discovery, but I really got emphasize how underrated it is. Not only does Klefki essentially flip the bird in front of every Ground type, but it can also wall DDance Mega Altaria, Haxorus and Mega Aerodactyl lacking Hone Claws and Aqua Tail and wear them down with Play Rough and/or Thunder Wave, or just use them as Spikes fodder. Other than that, I agree with everything else others have said about Klefki and the meta trends that have favored it.
Tsareena: B- ---> B / B+
The queen has come back to claim her throne. Let's start with the obvious: Mega Venusaur is gone, meaning its hardest counter and main competitor is out of the picture. That's not all though, for there are other meta trends that help it out significantly, such as...
-The loss of Gliscor
-Decline in Crobat and Kommo-o usage following Mega Venu's ban
-Outside of Scald burns, it absolutely ruins Empoleon, hitting it hard with HJK and Spinning its rocks away.
-While it can't switch in at all, the rise of Terrakion gives it another thing it can threaten severely
-Swampert, Suicune and Primarina are also becoming more common with the Venu ban, and guess who kills them all with Power Whip
-With Spikes offense on the rise, Tsareena does a decent job spinning away Spikes in front of Klefki and keeping Sharpedo and Mamoswine from switching in.
Now, to be fair, there are other notable meta trends that work against it, such as Togekiss and Altaria rising up. It also still has some fundamental faults, such as meh bulk and an inability to run everything it wants to, so on that front, I would understand a reluctance to rise Tsareena up further than B. But with that said, it's impossible to deny just how much of a weight has been lifted off Tsareena's shoulders with the Venu ban.
Klefki: B+ ---> A-
Ok, so I'm not the first to make this nom, but I would like to talk to you all about Magnet Rise. I know it's not some sort of brand new incredible discovery, but I really got emphasize how underrated it is. Not only does Klefki essentially flip the bird in front of every Ground type, but it can also wall DDance Mega Altaria, Haxorus and Mega Aerodactyl lacking Hone Claws and Aqua Tail and wear them down with Play Rough and/or Thunder Wave, or just use them as Spikes fodder. Other than that, I agree with everything else others have said about Klefki and the meta trends that have favored it.
Heracross should definitely reclaim its former spot in A-. These shifts have helped it more than any other shifts. Its main check in Acrobatics Gliscor on fatter builds is now gone, leaving it with no switch ins on stall/balance builds. The best way of dealing with Heracross for fatter builds is Crobat or Moltres, who can not only be checked by Rock types (Aerodactyl can Pursuit both as well), but are also Rocks weak and cannot switch into Facade. Not only this, but it also checks Mamoswine and has a good matchup against Amoonguss due to Flame Orb preventing it from being caught by its Spore. Despite me mainly talking about the Guts set in this post, other niche sets such as Choice Scarf and Choice Band, while obviously niche, are also viable options. Its decently splashable, its main check on fatter builds left, it checks Amoonguss and Mamoswine, and can also do well against Bulky Offense if it gets a switch-in. Rise this thing.
Okay. So a couple thoughts I have in light of Mega Venusaur getting banned:
Klefki to A- and Mega Sharpedo to A+: Strongly Agree
I asked Hilomilo about Mega Sharpedo not being on the slate or as a nomination and he confirmed (in one of his profile posts) that it's going to be a part of this slate. I was very much pro-rise for Mega Sharpedo in particular even before the Mega Venusaur ban because, in all honesty, Mega Sharpedo only needed a little bit of chip to ream it anyway, but the lessened competition for a mega slot helps Mega Sharpedo out somewhat since Mega Venusaur was so splashable, and the ban leaves it with one fewer thing it needed noticeable chip damage to break through. I'd also argue for Mamoswine to rise a subrank among these since Spike-stacking is really good and Mamoswine is fantastic when paired with these two and it lost a check in Mega Venusaur, but I'll hold off on that one.
Tsareena to B or B+: Agree
I was one of the people who was against it dropping all the way to the C-ranks, and I can confidently say that after Mega Venusaur getting banned this thing is an extraordinary Grass-type, now that it lost both some competition and a hard-counter. That said, I'm a little more on-the-fence about it rising to B+ since, to be quite honest, it still isn't quite as good as it used to be, but a rise in and of itself seems really reasonable. It's a good breaker and it's a decent offensive spinner and those niches are accurately reflected by B or (again, MAYBE) B+. I definitely wouldn't complain about it being B+ given how well it stacks up against the notorious spikestacking core of Klefki+Shark+Mamo though.
Heracross to A-: Agree
This thing is probably one of UU's best breakers, bar none. Its immediate power makes it one of Stall's biggest headaches, and that isn't even factoring in a potential Swords Dance boost. It also checks the other two notable drops in Amoonguss and Mamoswine pretty well. And speaking of breakers...
Terrakion to A+: Strongly Agree
Yeah, uhh... this thing has a crazy good offensive typing and crazy good stats to go along with that crazy good offensive typing. Its STABs are both ludicrously strong and have great coverage in tandem with one-another. Its bulk lets it live hits from emergency checks like Scizor and eat them alive in retaliation. And Close Combat+Stone Edge being good coverage on its own gives it room for a lot of potential moveset options, like Choice Band, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Swords Dance+Rock Polish, a plethora of items to go along with those setup sets, etc. Basically, this thing has a harder time not claiming a life if it gets a turn to do something than it does breaking. If you can name that offensive role, Terrakion can probably perform it better than most other options in the tier.
Crobat to B+: Agree
This thing was great in a Mega Venusaur meta but Mega Venusaur going made this thing a bit worse. It's still viable without a doubt, but I think B+ is very reasonable for it. I know nobody specifically mentioned Moltres, but considering Moltres rose alongside Crobat I feel the need to say this anyway: I still think Moltres should be where it is. It's still great at what it does, it's since become a lot more versatile as a threat, and, in general, I think it's just better than Crobat most of the time. But Crobat should definitely drop a little.
Togekiss to A: STRONGLY Disagree
This is still probably the tier's best Fairy and its movepool is wild. Setting up and breaking, paralyzing and tanking or being a pain in the ass, or just being a pain in the ass with a scarf are some off the many things Togekiss can do, and I definitely feel that it should remain as high as it is.
Krookodile to A+: Strongly Agree
Yeah, Krook is amazing and it's been getting a metric fuckton of tournament usage lately. Scarf is good and it has other potential sets outside of Scarf and a rise is more than warranted. Also kinda appreciates Venusaur leaving somewhat.
Mega Manectric to A+: Strongly Agree
I was already on-board with this thing rising the instant Gliscor left. Mega Venusaur leaving is a huge deal for this as well since that's one fewer thing that can take hits from it for days. I also forgot this thing got Signal Beam back then, so like... yeah, it doesn't really give a shit about Latias if it runs it anyway. This thing realistically doesn't have a switchin that appreciates the three potential moves it can run now that HP Ice isn't necessary. If this thing wasn't worthy of A+ when Venusaur was in the tier it sure as hell is now.
Mega Slowbro to B+: Strongly Agree
I mean, Bro doesn't suck my any means. But it's often kinda hard to justify dedicating a teamslot to this over other bulky Megas. It's obviously still fantastic at being a setup wincon, and nothing does what Mega Bro does quite like Mega Bro, but what Mega Bro does is a lot harder to do now. So I think B+ is a good reflection of where it belongs.
Kommo-O to A: Disagree
I think this could be in A-, though. This thing was one of Mega Venusaur's best answers and Mega Venusaur has since left, so... yeah, should be self-explanatory. That said, Kommo-o is still a really threatening sweeper with strong wallbreaking sets and it's very versatile, so if it should rise I think A- seems a bit reasonable for it, although I understand if it doesn't rise at all.
And to conclude this with a nomination of my own:
I nominate Amoonguss to A. Specifically A.
I don't think this needs too much explanation, but at the same time, metagame trends still aren't particularly great for it. One of the biggest reasons, in my opinion, for Amoonguss not being too great was because it seemed quite outclassed by Mega Venusaur, which had the same offensive typing, a "better" defensive typing courtesy of Thick Fat literally halving its weaknesses, and a better offensive presence while still maintaining a great defensive presence. Amoonguss having Spore (whilst being a mushroom that doesn't cancer up the tier) and there being fewer potential Grass-types to eat that move up is great in and of itself, and I'd argue that Amoonguss can at least somewhat fill the void Mega Venusaur left behind for bulkier teams. It doesn't have a fraction of Mega Venusaur's offensive prowess, of course, but if it had that level of offensive presence whilst being as bulky as it is it would probably be in S anyway. So I think A is pretty reasonable, although A- is still reasonable enough. But it definitely shouldn't drop anymore.
TL;DR: Holy shit Mega Venusaur had a lot of influence on the VR while it was here.
Klefki to A- and Mega Sharpedo to A+: Strongly Agree
I asked Hilomilo about Mega Sharpedo not being on the slate or as a nomination and he confirmed (in one of his profile posts) that it's going to be a part of this slate. I was very much pro-rise for Mega Sharpedo in particular even before the Mega Venusaur ban because, in all honesty, Mega Sharpedo only needed a little bit of chip to ream it anyway, but the lessened competition for a mega slot helps Mega Sharpedo out somewhat since Mega Venusaur was so splashable, and the ban leaves it with one fewer thing it needed noticeable chip damage to break through. I'd also argue for Mamoswine to rise a subrank among these since Spike-stacking is really good and Mamoswine is fantastic when paired with these two and it lost a check in Mega Venusaur, but I'll hold off on that one.
Tsareena to B or B+: Agree
I was one of the people who was against it dropping all the way to the C-ranks, and I can confidently say that after Mega Venusaur getting banned this thing is an extraordinary Grass-type, now that it lost both some competition and a hard-counter. That said, I'm a little more on-the-fence about it rising to B+ since, to be quite honest, it still isn't quite as good as it used to be, but a rise in and of itself seems really reasonable. It's a good breaker and it's a decent offensive spinner and those niches are accurately reflected by B or (again, MAYBE) B+. I definitely wouldn't complain about it being B+ given how well it stacks up against the notorious spikestacking core of Klefki+Shark+Mamo though.
Heracross to A-: Agree
This thing is probably one of UU's best breakers, bar none. Its immediate power makes it one of Stall's biggest headaches, and that isn't even factoring in a potential Swords Dance boost. It also checks the other two notable drops in Amoonguss and Mamoswine pretty well. And speaking of breakers...
Terrakion to A+: Strongly Agree
Yeah, uhh... this thing has a crazy good offensive typing and crazy good stats to go along with that crazy good offensive typing. Its STABs are both ludicrously strong and have great coverage in tandem with one-another. Its bulk lets it live hits from emergency checks like Scizor and eat them alive in retaliation. And Close Combat+Stone Edge being good coverage on its own gives it room for a lot of potential moveset options, like Choice Band, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Swords Dance+Rock Polish, a plethora of items to go along with those setup sets, etc. Basically, this thing has a harder time not claiming a life if it gets a turn to do something than it does breaking. If you can name that offensive role, Terrakion can probably perform it better than most other options in the tier.
Crobat to B+: Agree
This thing was great in a Mega Venusaur meta but Mega Venusaur going made this thing a bit worse. It's still viable without a doubt, but I think B+ is very reasonable for it. I know nobody specifically mentioned Moltres, but considering Moltres rose alongside Crobat I feel the need to say this anyway: I still think Moltres should be where it is. It's still great at what it does, it's since become a lot more versatile as a threat, and, in general, I think it's just better than Crobat most of the time. But Crobat should definitely drop a little.
Togekiss to A: STRONGLY Disagree
This is still probably the tier's best Fairy and its movepool is wild. Setting up and breaking, paralyzing and tanking or being a pain in the ass, or just being a pain in the ass with a scarf are some off the many things Togekiss can do, and I definitely feel that it should remain as high as it is.
Krookodile to A+: Strongly Agree
Yeah, Krook is amazing and it's been getting a metric fuckton of tournament usage lately. Scarf is good and it has other potential sets outside of Scarf and a rise is more than warranted. Also kinda appreciates Venusaur leaving somewhat.
Mega Manectric to A+: Strongly Agree
I was already on-board with this thing rising the instant Gliscor left. Mega Venusaur leaving is a huge deal for this as well since that's one fewer thing that can take hits from it for days. I also forgot this thing got Signal Beam back then, so like... yeah, it doesn't really give a shit about Latias if it runs it anyway. This thing realistically doesn't have a switchin that appreciates the three potential moves it can run now that HP Ice isn't necessary. If this thing wasn't worthy of A+ when Venusaur was in the tier it sure as hell is now.
Mega Slowbro to B+: Strongly Agree
I mean, Bro doesn't suck my any means. But it's often kinda hard to justify dedicating a teamslot to this over other bulky Megas. It's obviously still fantastic at being a setup wincon, and nothing does what Mega Bro does quite like Mega Bro, but what Mega Bro does is a lot harder to do now. So I think B+ is a good reflection of where it belongs.
Kommo-O to A: Disagree
I think this could be in A-, though. This thing was one of Mega Venusaur's best answers and Mega Venusaur has since left, so... yeah, should be self-explanatory. That said, Kommo-o is still a really threatening sweeper with strong wallbreaking sets and it's very versatile, so if it should rise I think A- seems a bit reasonable for it, although I understand if it doesn't rise at all.
And to conclude this with a nomination of my own:
I nominate Amoonguss to A. Specifically A.
I don't think this needs too much explanation, but at the same time, metagame trends still aren't particularly great for it. One of the biggest reasons, in my opinion, for Amoonguss not being too great was because it seemed quite outclassed by Mega Venusaur, which had the same offensive typing, a "better" defensive typing courtesy of Thick Fat literally halving its weaknesses, and a better offensive presence while still maintaining a great defensive presence. Amoonguss having Spore (whilst being a mushroom that doesn't cancer up the tier) and there being fewer potential Grass-types to eat that move up is great in and of itself, and I'd argue that Amoonguss can at least somewhat fill the void Mega Venusaur left behind for bulkier teams. It doesn't have a fraction of Mega Venusaur's offensive prowess, of course, but if it had that level of offensive presence whilst being as bulky as it is it would probably be in S anyway. So I think A is pretty reasonable, although A- is still reasonable enough. But it definitely shouldn't drop anymore.
TL;DR: Holy shit Mega Venusaur had a lot of influence on the VR while it was here.
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Terrakion is absolutely fine in A, don’t move this. Yes it’s a super scary breaker that’s probably only second to Heracross in how limited it’s defensive counterplay is (has major perks over the bug though) but once you start moving into the highest ranks on the VR you really need to be asking how easy is the pokemon to just splash into teams and I’m not convinced it belongs in A+ on the strength of this. While Kink’s post a while back was absolutely good evidence of how Terrakion can take hits and force trades if need be, the reality is it’s not offering anything to your team defensively outside of this which makes it harder to justify on teams defensively than something like an Infernape or a Cobalion, both of which are also in A. They trade the raw straight up power Terrakion has for other traits such as increased defensive presence via bulk or typing and particularly in Infernapes case, more set up potential. I think having these 3 fighting types in the same rank would be an accurate depiction of how the fit in UU currently.
Manectric is being overhyped big time but A+ looking a bit bare and it has improved so I could probably let that one slide.
Toge shouldn’t drop yeah, Krook should be in A+.
I understand why people would react to post venu and say Crobat should be dropped, but just look how many fighting types we currently have in the higher rankings and how many are being discussed for rises. U-Turn bat is probably one of the best partners these guys can ask for bringing in a whole host of Steels and Rock types to beat up on. It’s also finding a place on a fair few stall builds that are choosing to go without Aero as it provides valuable speed and a few potential utility options, most prominently Defog. I don’t think A- is overselling this at all. I at least think if this drops it should be agreed Gengar goes straight down with it because I am not accepting that Crobat is less viable than Gengar for a second.
Manectric is being overhyped big time but A+ looking a bit bare and it has improved so I could probably let that one slide.
Toge shouldn’t drop yeah, Krook should be in A+.
I understand why people would react to post venu and say Crobat should be dropped, but just look how many fighting types we currently have in the higher rankings and how many are being discussed for rises. U-Turn bat is probably one of the best partners these guys can ask for bringing in a whole host of Steels and Rock types to beat up on. It’s also finding a place on a fair few stall builds that are choosing to go without Aero as it provides valuable speed and a few potential utility options, most prominently Defog. I don’t think A- is overselling this at all. I at least think if this drops it should be agreed Gengar goes straight down with it because I am not accepting that Crobat is less viable than Gengar for a second.
Araquanid to C or C+
Been waiting for a minute to make this nom. Since the loss of Serperior and Mamoswine dropping back to UU, Sticky Webs Offense has gotten much better. It's the best webs setter in the tier, Adamant Liqiduation hits like a damn truck to anything that doesn't resist it. It can also bounce back hazards if needed be and is a decent check to stuff like Coballion, Infernape without Edge, and Scizor locked into BP. Either way, this mon shouldn't be in C- right now.
Krook A -> A+: disagree
Krook's a great Scarfer and definitely easy to throw onto teams, but with M-Venusaur leaving the tier it really opens up space for a ton of other mons to become viable, and that's bad news for Krook. Terrakion has already shot up the VR to god-tier (rightly so) because if Krook Pursuit traps something, Rak's getting a really good chance at snagging a kill. M-Altaria is super viable again now that Venu's gone, same for Aggron (who hard checks Knock Off/Pursuit and lives 2 EQ's before it gets KO'd), and then there's always mainstay mons like Togekiss, Aerodactyl, and Hydregion who can all come in its Knock Off/EQ and pressure whatever's switching in. Other mons like Kommo-o, Klefki, Moltres, Heracross, and M-Sharpedo all present new challenges to Krookodile's move-lock-in as well. Letting any of these mons in for free can spell doom for another teammate (or in M-Shark's case, the rest of your team).
By their nature, Scarf Pursuit trappers have to gamble and almost always give up momentum to the opposing team in exchange for a highly probable kill. While Pursuit itself is great tech, there are other mons who compete with Krook as Pursuiters, some of whom were a bit sub-optimal with M-Venusaur running amok. Speaking of running a Muk (sorry), A-Muk spreads poison and swaps in on all Latias/Starmie/Gengar/Chandy/Reuniclus sets, Aero doesn't need a Scarf to trap things and naturally outspeeds the non-scarfed tier,niche shitty mons like M-Absol enjoy both STAB and speed naturally (and off a higher base Attack), and steel types like Metagross and Scizor enjoy better switch in potential on Psychic mons that lack a Fire attack. Granted, Krook's trapping of Mane is cool, but it does come with the chance of taking 80% from Signal Beam. But it comes at the cost of not being able to reliably switch into and trap Latias, Reuniclus, Starmie, Blissey, Gengar, Sub Chandelure, etc. - it has to land a really clutch prediction or enter as a revenge killer.
I wouldn't argue that Krook isn't a big threat, but rather that it's not A+ material quite yet and that the meta's going to continue to adapt to M-Venusaur leaving, thus making Psychic/Flying types less somewhat relevant than they were last week.
TL;DR - Krook's good at A because mons like M-Aggron, M-Altaria, and Muk are coming back now that Venu's gone, and other meta trends compete against it for a limited amount of viability at the top echelon of the meta.
Krook's a great Scarfer and definitely easy to throw onto teams, but with M-Venusaur leaving the tier it really opens up space for a ton of other mons to become viable, and that's bad news for Krook. Terrakion has already shot up the VR to god-tier (rightly so) because if Krook Pursuit traps something, Rak's getting a really good chance at snagging a kill. M-Altaria is super viable again now that Venu's gone, same for Aggron (who hard checks Knock Off/Pursuit and lives 2 EQ's before it gets KO'd), and then there's always mainstay mons like Togekiss, Aerodactyl, and Hydregion who can all come in its Knock Off/EQ and pressure whatever's switching in. Other mons like Kommo-o, Klefki, Moltres, Heracross, and M-Sharpedo all present new challenges to Krookodile's move-lock-in as well. Letting any of these mons in for free can spell doom for another teammate (or in M-Shark's case, the rest of your team).
By their nature, Scarf Pursuit trappers have to gamble and almost always give up momentum to the opposing team in exchange for a highly probable kill. While Pursuit itself is great tech, there are other mons who compete with Krook as Pursuiters, some of whom were a bit sub-optimal with M-Venusaur running amok. Speaking of running a Muk (sorry), A-Muk spreads poison and swaps in on all Latias/Starmie/Gengar/Chandy/Reuniclus sets, Aero doesn't need a Scarf to trap things and naturally outspeeds the non-scarfed tier,
I wouldn't argue that Krook isn't a big threat, but rather that it's not A+ material quite yet and that the meta's going to continue to adapt to M-Venusaur leaving, thus making Psychic/Flying types less somewhat relevant than they were last week.
TL;DR - Krook's good at A because mons like M-Aggron, M-Altaria, and Muk are coming back now that Venu's gone, and other meta trends compete against it for a limited amount of viability at the top echelon of the meta.
Terrakion hasn't rose to A+ yet (and it shouldn't), so I'm not sure why you bring it up here. Of course Terrakion can come in if Krook pursuits one of its teammates, however it can't switch into Krook at all unless it predicts a Dark-type move. You can apply this to any locked mon whos STAB lets in another mon, so why hold this against Krookodile? Togekiss doesn't appreciate its item being removed (especially since its Rocks weak) unless its Fightinium and can't switch into Stone Edge either. I'm not sure why you'd even remotely consider Aerodactyl a Krookodile switch in at all. If anything, its vice versa. Knock Off does a solid 40% to any Aerodactyl switching in, not to mention Stealth Rock. It can't switch into the aforementioned Stone Edge. Hydreigon's most common set, Choice Scarf, is heavily reliant on its item as well, so switching it into Knock is a lost cause. Kommo-O can't switch into EQ, Klefki can't switch into EQ, Moltres can't switch into Stone Edge, Heracross hates getting its Flame Orb Knocked Off, and Sharpedo can't switch into EQ (in fact, Krookodile can soft check non-Liquidation and revenge +1 Adamant Shark). Yes, you mentioned this for Krookodile's Scarf set, but you talk like Scarf is the only set. Groundium Rocks is also a viable set that's criminally underrated and bops all of the mons that you just mentioned that could normally take advantage of a locked Krook.
I'm not sure why Scarf Pursuiters have to "gamble" and "give up momentum". If anything, it provides more good than bad. Eliminating a single Pokemon with little risk and high reward is why so many high-level players consider it broken (not to mention how many mons it can invalidate in a game). All of the mons you mentioned that Krookodile "competes" with (Aerodactyl, Muk) have some of the same faults that you mentioned against Krookodile. Aerodactyl can't switch into any of the mons you mentioned and Reuniclus can even beat it if its not a niche set like Crunch. Muk gets chipped easily as well by hazards/repeated switch ins to mons it can't Pursuit (since Muk teams seem to rely on it to beat everything special), and loses to Dragonium Latias and Waterium Z Starmie on the switch. Absol is so bad that i'm astonished you even brought it up honestly and Krookodile is leaps and bounds better, Scarf or not. Signal Beam Mane is very niche as well.
And how exactly does this make Krookodile worse? It pursuits most Psychics, Pursuits certain Flyings that fear Stone Edge (Aerodactyl, potentially Crobat, potentially Pidgeot), and can annoy Togekiss by Knocking Off its item if its not Z. If anything they will increase in usage due to Pursuit being less common (since it was pretty much on every Venu teams). I don't get how the meta adapting makes Krook worse at all. I'm not sure how Mega Aggron is a check to Krookodile at all, as it loses to the aforementioned Groundium Z set, and if anything Muk got worse with Venu leaving.
Tl;dr Krookodile should defo go up to A+, even if it did get sliiightly worse with Venu leaving since it was a good partner.
If you did read through this, thanks for reading this text wall.
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