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USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter Hilomilo
- Start date
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Well, Alolan Muk can also check/counter non-Dragonium Z CM Lati, which Blissey cannot do if it runs Psyshock. Agree with this though, even though it is a good switch in against most special mons. No reliable recovery bar Healing Wish/Recover, and while it does Pursuit trap and beat many good things, it gets worn down easily due to hazards and no recovery.lol what. tbh I don't see why alolan muk should rise. It's pretty much dead weight against stall. It can't really switch in on any thing that's physical, making it hard for it to counter or check many top threats, and is 2HKO'd by many of the best physical mons in the tier. Also, 0 recovery options, I don't think alolan muk should rise, for these reasons.
A list of things it pursuit traps or beats:
Primarina
Perish Trap Azu (usually)
Non-Dragonium Latias (if it takes chip, it gets OHKOed)
Gengar
Special Mega Altaria
Hydreigon
Mega Man
Raikou
Sylveon
While it does beat these mons, it can find itself getting overwhelmed easily if Alolan Muk is the only counter/check to them on a team, prompting them to likely sweep later.
Tl;dr Alolan Muk should stay A because it gets worn down easily and can find itself getting chipped away easily, to the point where it cant even win 1v1 against the things its supposed to check.
What rank should Ambipom be?
D rank. Obviously it is just a noob destroyer and not a viable pick in the meta
It actually does get 1 recovery option - gluttony figy berry with recycle. It’s not the greatest, but it does exist. I use it on a curse set that often gets surprise sweeps, but I suppose you could probably throw it on a pursuit set if you really wanted that recovery.
Apparently not. Joey got to #5 on the ladder with it. It's obviously not great in the meta, but it's not useless. It has a good speed tier at 115 with a base 125 STAB attack (if skill link) with knock off, fire punch, ice punch, u-turn, and fakeout so it can be customized to need. I'd say it should be in C or C+
Honestly, with the very low chance, potential shift of Mamoswine to OU, a lot could happen which would help UU greatly.
I don't think the fact that a youtuber got to the top of the ladder with ambipom makes it worthy of anything more than its "required" D rank(due to it now being UU). The question we have to ask ourselves is, does ambipom contribute anything noteworthy to builds that warrants a placement above D rank and is it on the same level as the threats that are currently sitting in the c ranks? The answer to me is no for both questions; skill link+tail slap combined with coverage for steel types and decent speed seems very appealing on paper, but in the reality of things, ambipom fails to stand out as something worth using considering the fact that it still doesn't contribute much and there's always going to be a better mon for the job. Looking at some of the c rank threats, I'd consider using even the likes of stoutland and linoone sooner; despite these two fitting on very specific playstyles and linoone holding a different niche, at least stoutland does a noticeably better job as a normal type wallbreaker even though it mandates sand while linoone has the potential to clean mid-to-late game on hyper offense teams. C rank is reserved for threats that don't fit on most builds, but still hold a niche that is appreciated in very specific scenarios, and with that said, I can say with certainty that Ambipom does not correlate with this level of viability.
So that this isn't just a rant about ambipom's rise to UU, I agree with azumarill, moltres, and mega abomasnow rising. I don't have much to say about azumarill or mega abomasnow that hasn't been mentioned in previous posts, however, I'd like to point out that whirlwind on moltres is particularly nice on hazard stacking builds and on stall; moltres doesn't have a particularly hard time fitting it into its moveset, as its fourth moveslot on offensive sets is actually quite flexible:grassium variants run solar beam of course, but other options like wisp to catch mega aero on the switch, U-turn for momentum purposes, or even stuff like flamethrower if you want an accurate move for cleaning up work. On the defensive spectrum, moltres synergizes well with stall staples like quagsire and blissey, the unique pool of threats it checks like serperior and scizor combined with the utility it provides is great for these builds.
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Imo yes it should be C rank. With silk scarf, technician, and 5 hits, you get a 220 damage attack, and with stab, that's a 330 damage attack. Ouch. It's also legitimately a Gengar check with access to knock off and a better speed tier. 115 speed is great as it outspeeds threats like Gengar, Terrakion, Latias, and Serperior. Access to a solid move pool and the elemental punches mean it can threaten a lot of mons, and fake put with silk scarf and stab is a 108 BP power move that cause the opponent to flinch. It's a niche, but good mon in UU imo.
Ambipom should be put in D-rank given it lacks any real viable niche to warrant its placement among even the shithole of C-. The problem with Ambipom isn't even necessarily that one can't find an argument to use it; on paper having good coverage and decent overall offensive power seems good coupled with its speed tier. The problems with Ambipom though are 1) bulk not worth speaking about, and 2) outclassed by literally any Pokemon that wants to be a breaker with coverage.
People like to cite aim's whole "it lives a banded BP from Scizor" thing, when in reality you take 77%-91% from it. Sure, you may nab a surprise OHKO and I do believe there is some merit to that, but instead of using Ambipom and having to hope you never switch in on Stealth Rocks, you could use a good Pokemon like Infernape instead, which has the nice little virtue of actually resisting Scizor's BP. Like sure, you can survive some odd calcs with Ambipom, but these damage rolls mostly rely on the opponent never getting hazards up. Not exactly something that's easy to stop.
There are so many better breakers in the tier that work better than Ambipom, that picking Ambipom over them is actively hindering yourself. Choice Band Scizor, Choice Band Azumarill, Choice Scarf Infernape, et cetera. Not only do these have coverage which rivals Ambipom's, but also require less team support to make function, and have a pretty damn good defensive typing. As shown in aim's TTT, Ambipom required so much support in the battles, and still struggled to do a whole lot. Is it necessarily all that hard to get it good support? You can debate that, but I would rather not dedicate the support on my team to a wall-breaker with no defensive presence at all.
Sure, I could see Ambipom in C- entirely because of the random small unniches it has stacking up for it; however, the cost-benefit of using Ambipom is skewed really heavily in the "cost" direction, which makes me believe Ambipom is not worth using period. There exist better options.
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Alright, since I guess some people are stupid.
I'd like to propose putting Ambipom right into D rank, as over the past month we've literally beaten the reasons why it's shit into the ground so far it's probably halfway to the core of the earth by now.
Second proposal is to blacklist it from discussion. Let's save this thread for things that don't suck ass.
I'd like to propose putting Ambipom right into D rank, as over the past month we've literally beaten the reasons why it's shit into the ground so far it's probably halfway to the core of the earth by now.
Second proposal is to blacklist it from discussion. Let's save this thread for things that don't suck ass.
Didn’t think I’d have to do it so quickly (probably should’ve), but I’m blacklisting further discussion on Ambipom. The update will likely be around this coming weekend, so in the meantime you should still have plenty of things to discuss. Let’s try getting back on track with the good discussion, please.
not too much to say on the voting slate, azu to s seems fine ig. but i do have some noms i guess
is there any reason as to why nidoqueen is still ranked? kind of accepted at this point that offensive is just a worse nidoking, which leads to the defensive set, which does...kind of nothing. toxic spikes are unviable in this meta since amoonguss is super common rn and hazard control isn't too strenuous to fit on a team, not to mention that a lot of pokemon that deal with queen don't really care about it anyway. you're not really checking a lot of relevant offensive threats that cant be done better by other things aside from like dd terrakion, which is kind of unheard of right now, and like...non eq alty? it does some other interesting things like screwing over klefki but that's not really a unique trait or anything. it just seems really flimsy at what it does lol
tentacruel seems kind of awkward in a-. checking azumarill and scizor is a big niche for sure, but i feel like there are a lot of matchups where it just struggles to do anything because its so passive and it gets worn down really fucking fast. bulky water types in general rn are just kind of bleh when you consider that latias / manec / serp (not really an ideal way of dealing with tenta, but it fits the bill) are on like every team. at least with empo you can annoy the shit out of things with knock or protox and have the benefit of being a steel-type. idk compared to penguin its hard to justify tenta on a team slot
is there any reason as to why nidoqueen is still ranked? kind of accepted at this point that offensive is just a worse nidoking, which leads to the defensive set, which does...kind of nothing. toxic spikes are unviable in this meta since amoonguss is super common rn and hazard control isn't too strenuous to fit on a team, not to mention that a lot of pokemon that deal with queen don't really care about it anyway. you're not really checking a lot of relevant offensive threats that cant be done better by other things aside from like dd terrakion, which is kind of unheard of right now, and like...non eq alty? it does some other interesting things like screwing over klefki but that's not really a unique trait or anything. it just seems really flimsy at what it does lol
tentacruel seems kind of awkward in a-. checking azumarill and scizor is a big niche for sure, but i feel like there are a lot of matchups where it just struggles to do anything because its so passive and it gets worn down really fucking fast. bulky water types in general rn are just kind of bleh when you consider that latias / manec / serp (not really an ideal way of dealing with tenta, but it fits the bill) are on like every team. at least with empo you can annoy the shit out of things with knock or protox and have the benefit of being a steel-type. idk compared to penguin its hard to justify tenta on a team slot
In regards to stuff said about A-Muk (especially when compared to Blissey): A-Muk has poison touch and pursuit, which can be very annoying for stall, especially with Knock Off. Blissey is not as splashable on teams (mostly fits on stall and a few weird teams) as A-Muk is and Blissey can be quite passive unlike A-Muk. Pursuit Trapping is such a valuable tech in the game, that really puts a damper on another person's team, causing them to have to double constantly. A-Muk does pair really well with Alomomola and Sylveon, which does make up for the recovery to a certain extent. Also, A-muk does check Z Draco CM Latias, no Latias would dare calm mind up in front of A-Muk. Yes, A-Muk does not appreciate taking a +1 Z Draco but, you have to find the right time to step up first; meaning it's still a blanket check to Z-Draco CM Latias. I think A-Muk should rise considering what it beats in the tier and how it's becoming a glue for the tier. 10 | Muk-Alola | 12.416% | <- Clearly, a lot of teams are depending on this mon to reliably beat many threats in the tier.
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guess i'll kick off the breloom discussion since it's officially unbanned and we've had like 10 days to play around with it
--> a+: spore is a really dangerous mind game weapon on an offensive mon that packs a Mach Punch matching the power of Scizor's bullet punch, and it's the main reason why breloom was previously considered broken by the community. in addition, i think we've hit a point where players are capably navigating their way past the influx of Crobat usage and even running successful sets that forgo Spore. while frailty is certainly an issue for Loom at times, there's no questioning its immediate impact once it switches safely into the battlefield.
--> ur?: regarding toxic spikes, I don't think it's lost that much effectiveness in this meta since it still does a good job pressuring the opposing team to switch in their grounded poison in the first place, which often comes with a bit of other hazard damage that non-amoonguss don't particularly appreciate. that being said, i do agree that nidoqueen is shit in this meta since there's at least 4 other tspikes users that i'd consider over queen and its defensive qualities do not quite cut it in such a power oriented metagame
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Not to be that person, but you said A-Muk can be quite passive unlike A-Muk.
Also, I was mainly talking about if Lati CMs when Alolan Muk comes in and if its taken chip beforehand. Agree with what you said about Blissey and pursuit trapping, though.
No he didn't. He said Blissey isn't as splashable as A-Muk, and is passive unlike A-Muk.
So this isn't a one-liner regarding grammar, I agree with the nom for Breloom to A+. Breloom is a real problem to account for while teambuilding mainly due to its diversity in what it can run in those 3rd and 4th coverage slots, making it hard to know just what actually checks it. While there's only one Mon that checks every set pretty easily (Sap Sipper Azu), other Mons like M-Alt, Crobat, Amoonguss, Moltres, and hell even Vileplume can generally be considered solid answers unless Breloom runs the coverage move to beat them (Rock Tomb, Natural Gift Ganlon being the two most effective coverage options imo).
Now that this thing is unbanned, it brings immense power to UU. Although it has base 70 speed, Mach Punch makes up for that. Prominent threats like Hydreigon, Cobalion, Alolan Muk, Stakataka, Mega Sharpedo, etc all don't appreciate a Mach Punch.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 413-486 (127.8 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 517-611 (183.9 - 217.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 302-364 (92.6 - 111.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 517-611 (183.9 - 217.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 302-364 (92.6 - 111.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Then just add spore to it. Putting things to sleep and in-turn getting a SD or Sub up (depending on set) is amazing.
Other coverages moves such as rock tomb could be helpful against fire types aka chandy.
With all these things it still has trouble breaking through faster Pokemon that resist its stab (Crobat, Chandelure, Latias)
Putting the spotlight on Amoongus as it blocks spore and is able to reset any of Breloom's stat changes
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Amoonguss: A ---> A+
Amoonguss is T H E definitive blanket check to so many threats in this metagame. From just the A ranks alone, it can wall and beat Scizor (if running HP Fire), Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Manectric, Serperior, Primarina, Stakataka, Alomomola, Mega Sharpedo, Swampert, and now the recently dropped Breloom, for which it can also sponge Spore as a bonus. And when it's done soaking up those hits, it heals it all back up with Regenerator. With every suspect, with every unban, with every tier shift, it only becomes more and more useful. If a few more of these shifts and unbans happen, I could totally see an argument to be made for this guy to rise to S. But that's in the future, and right now, it's almost certainly A+ worthy due to being able to wall so, SO many threatening Pokemon that are running amuck in the meta.
I have a few nominations of my own that I'd kinda like to see go through, so here's what I'm thinking! Hope you guys enjoy 
Rotom-C up to B+
I really like Mowtom right now. Its newfound access to Defog and the loss of Rotom-W have continued to benefit it and I think that it still isn't being ranked where it most deserves. It provides teams with a strong offensive check to Azumarill, can function as an emergency stop to Scizor thanks to its Steel-type resistance, and forces plenty of switches against a few big metagame threats, like Togekiss, Swampert, and Suicune, which can either be abused to chip foes through pivoting out or defog hazards away. I think that while not a lot has changed for it, it's just a generally really useful Pokemon that is consistent enough in its role to be ranked alongside Pokemon like Empoleon and Hippowdon.
Krookodile down to B
Krookodile was going to take a hit in viability unless both Breloom and Buzzwole were banned after this latest suspect test. However, Breloom is now a huge presence in the meta, and Krookodile's general inability to combat it in really any way should be responded to with a drop from B+. In addition to sort of being deadweight against one of the biggest threats in this newer metagame, Krookodile is hurt by its poor responses to a few other really popular trends, which include the dominance of threats like Serperior, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Gliscor. Its Scarf set is also burdened by the presence of Scarfers that outspeed and apply heavy pressure to it, like Hydreigon, Latias, and Infernape. I feel that it was on the cusp of B+ viability before, but now that Breloom is around, it really doesn't have any business being that high anymore, which is really a shame considering it used to be such a good mon in the tier.
Now that i'm done with those noms, I'd like to weigh in on some of the discussion points, since I think a few are a little different following Breloom's unban.
Lycanroc-Dusk C to C+: Disagree
It hurts to have to disagree with this, since I was all for it before Breloom was reintroduced into the tier. However, Lycanroc is both given competition by Breloom as a cleaner and has to make sure it's removed in the late-game in order to successfully do its job. It's still potent, but it's definitely harder for it to perform when a huge new threat in the tier both competes with it in a way while really adequately offensively checking it.
Celebi B to B-: Disagree
I already kind of disagreed with this but it was a lot trickier to figure out before Breloom dropped. Celebi is a lot easier to distinguish from its Grass-type competition at this point in the meta since it has really good bulk for an offensive mon that in tandem with the psychic typing is kind of amazing for standing up to Breloom. It's still hard to fit onto teams, but it has an easier time than ever before maintaining use over Serperior, and a drop wouldn't reflect that fact right now.
Moltres B+ to A-: Agree
Not a lot that hasn't been said in regards to this nomination, but I'd just like to throw some support its way because why the hell not. Moltres is still not a mainstream threat, but it's got so much versatility between its offensive and defensive sets and its really consistent in both roles right now. Has a shit ton of free turns against the likes of Infernape, several Scizor variants, and Serperior, and the reintroduction of Breloom has only aided it in increasing its presence in the metagame.
Thanks for reading everyone! Hope you enjoyed ma thoughts :3
I really like Mowtom right now. Its newfound access to Defog and the loss of Rotom-W have continued to benefit it and I think that it still isn't being ranked where it most deserves. It provides teams with a strong offensive check to Azumarill, can function as an emergency stop to Scizor thanks to its Steel-type resistance, and forces plenty of switches against a few big metagame threats, like Togekiss, Swampert, and Suicune, which can either be abused to chip foes through pivoting out or defog hazards away. I think that while not a lot has changed for it, it's just a generally really useful Pokemon that is consistent enough in its role to be ranked alongside Pokemon like Empoleon and Hippowdon.
Krookodile was going to take a hit in viability unless both Breloom and Buzzwole were banned after this latest suspect test. However, Breloom is now a huge presence in the meta, and Krookodile's general inability to combat it in really any way should be responded to with a drop from B+. In addition to sort of being deadweight against one of the biggest threats in this newer metagame, Krookodile is hurt by its poor responses to a few other really popular trends, which include the dominance of threats like Serperior, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Gliscor. Its Scarf set is also burdened by the presence of Scarfers that outspeed and apply heavy pressure to it, like Hydreigon, Latias, and Infernape. I feel that it was on the cusp of B+ viability before, but now that Breloom is around, it really doesn't have any business being that high anymore, which is really a shame considering it used to be such a good mon in the tier.
Now that i'm done with those noms, I'd like to weigh in on some of the discussion points, since I think a few are a little different following Breloom's unban.
It hurts to have to disagree with this, since I was all for it before Breloom was reintroduced into the tier. However, Lycanroc is both given competition by Breloom as a cleaner and has to make sure it's removed in the late-game in order to successfully do its job. It's still potent, but it's definitely harder for it to perform when a huge new threat in the tier both competes with it in a way while really adequately offensively checking it.
I already kind of disagreed with this but it was a lot trickier to figure out before Breloom dropped. Celebi is a lot easier to distinguish from its Grass-type competition at this point in the meta since it has really good bulk for an offensive mon that in tandem with the psychic typing is kind of amazing for standing up to Breloom. It's still hard to fit onto teams, but it has an easier time than ever before maintaining use over Serperior, and a drop wouldn't reflect that fact right now.
Not a lot that hasn't been said in regards to this nomination, but I'd just like to throw some support its way because why the hell not. Moltres is still not a mainstream threat, but it's got so much versatility between its offensive and defensive sets and its really consistent in both roles right now. Has a shit ton of free turns against the likes of Infernape, several Scizor variants, and Serperior, and the reintroduction of Breloom has only aided it in increasing its presence in the metagame.
Thanks for reading everyone! Hope you enjoyed ma thoughts :3
It's interesting that you add these 5 Pokemon to your list of purported checks.
Amoonguss: A ---> A+
Amoonguss is T H E definitive blanket check to so many threats in this metagame. From just the A ranks alone, it can wall and beat Scizor (if running HP Fire), Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Manectric, Serperior, Primarina, Stakataka, Alomomola, Mega Sharpedo, Swampert, and now the recently dropped Breloom, for which it can also sponge Spore as a bonus. And when it's done soaking up those hits, it heals it all back up with Regenerator. With every suspect, with every unban, with every tier shift, it only becomes more and more useful. If a few more of these shifts and unbans happen, I could totally see an argument to be made for this guy to rise to S. But that's in the future, and right now, it's almost certainly A+ worthy due to being able to wall so, SO many threatening Pokemon that are running amuck in the meta.
- Mega Manectric doesn't really care if Amoonguss walls it because it can just pivot out into a Pokemon that checks Amoonguss in return.
- Primarinas commonly carry Psychic, so it's not a complete switch-in
- If I recall correctly, Continental Crush + Stone Edge is a 2HKO after SR. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
- Alomomola vs. Amoonguss isn't really an argument. Every defensive Pokemon stalemates against another defensive Pokemon (i.e. Alomomola vs. Blissey). If your idea of checking Alomomola is Giga Draining Alomomola as it Wish+Protects, then I guess it's a check.
- Psychic Fangs is at worst a 2HKO while Amoonguss' Giga Drain is never an OHKO.
Its role as a pivot is useful in this current iteration of the metagame, but not to the point where I would readily splash it as a pivot on every single one of my teams.
EDIT: Also, Amoonguss also faces competition as a pivot from strong Utility Pokemon such as RoMow, as Palkia mentioned.
Quagsire from B to B+
Quagsire is now a staple on stall as an unaware mon that checks setup sweepers such as cobalion and scizor from breaking through blissey and alomomola. Quagsire can also check other various physical sweepers with Curse. Quagsire does get OHKOed by any grass move which is a flaw with mons like Serperior in the tier. Quagsire also is in competition with Swampert as a bulky water but Swampert is very different from Quagsire. Quagsire also has many other notable flaws like being passive and only working on stall. But Quagsire's undeniable effectiveness on stall is a great reason it should rise.
Quagsire is now a staple on stall as an unaware mon that checks setup sweepers such as cobalion and scizor from breaking through blissey and alomomola. Quagsire can also check other various physical sweepers with Curse. Quagsire does get OHKOed by any grass move which is a flaw with mons like Serperior in the tier. Quagsire also is in competition with Swampert as a bulky water but Swampert is very different from Quagsire. Quagsire also has many other notable flaws like being passive and only working on stall. But Quagsire's undeniable effectiveness on stall is a great reason it should rise.
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lucario is a premier stallbreaker that Quagsire can safely switch into and even setup on it with curse
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 130-153 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stakataka is also completely walled by Quagsire
Pretty much only Grass types can break through it
Lucario is a premier stallbreaker that Quagsire can safely switch into and even setup on it with curse
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 130-153 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stakataka is also completely walled by Quagsire
Pretty much only Grass types can break through it
I’m confused as to why you’re saying Quagsire only functions on stall, but should move up a tier. If stall is it’s only niche and it isn’t a versatile Pokémon then I think it should stay where it is. Quagsire and Swampert both do very different things and function on very different teams so I am unsure why they are in competition. You say pretty much only Grass types break through it but this is not true at all. Physical stall breakers such as Heracross and Haxorus are able to easily break through Quagsire. Wall breakers like Choice Band Terrakion and Choice Band Infernape are also able to beat Quagsire as well as mixed Pokémon like Life Orb Grass Knot Infernape. It’s mediocre special defense allows most power special attacking Pokémon to do massive damage to it and most likely break though it.
i was saying that quagsire should move up to almost the level of the other stall staples in Blissey and Alomomola. Yes it is true that many other mons could break through it but also have trouble if scald burns or quagsire has accumulated curse boosts. But the rest of what u said is true
Quag isn't as crucial to stall as some other Pokemon like Blissey and Alomomola (pif built a Quag-less stall team).
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