Blissey and Alomomola both have utility outside of full stall which honestly I don't think that Quagsire has, and as eaglehawk said you can have Quagless stall but you can't have Blisseyless or Alo-less stall for sure.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter Hilomilo
- Start date
- Status
Gonna agree with Amoongus to A+
This thing is one of the hardest counters to Loom, coming in on anything other than SD —> Z Move and sets itself apart from the other things in A rank because of its splashability. It acts as a pivoting sponge on the balance and BO teams that seem very prevalent right now, absorbing hits from all but about 5 mons in the A- to S ranks. In my opinion, it’s much closer to A+ material in the way it’s slapped on teams as a glue mon, as well as it’s ability to hard counter top threats to bulkier teams (Serp, Loom, CB Azu lacking ice punch) without being too passive. The shifts we’ve seen over the last week or so, and are likely to see over the coming weeks, have benefitted this mon immensely and it seems out of place in A atm with things like Suicine (which should definitely drop btw)
This thing is one of the hardest counters to Loom, coming in on anything other than SD —> Z Move and sets itself apart from the other things in A rank because of its splashability. It acts as a pivoting sponge on the balance and BO teams that seem very prevalent right now, absorbing hits from all but about 5 mons in the A- to S ranks. In my opinion, it’s much closer to A+ material in the way it’s slapped on teams as a glue mon, as well as it’s ability to hard counter top threats to bulkier teams (Serp, Loom, CB Azu lacking ice punch) without being too passive. The shifts we’ve seen over the last week or so, and are likely to see over the coming weeks, have benefitted this mon immensely and it seems out of place in A atm with things like Suicine (which should definitely drop btw)
+2 252+ Atk Ganlon Berry Breloom Natural Gift (100 BP Ice) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 430-508 (99.5 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
I have no idea what the hell the current spread is for Amoonguss so I just gave it full investment into physical defense and yeah, doesn't check the optimal Breloom set (okay I also have no idea if this is the best set rn but it gets past many of its checks so). Anyhow, I disagree with this nomination because I don't really think Amoonguss is all that more splashable than Alolan Muk, and is far too passive. Sure, we've seen how being passive doesn't matter with Toxapex in OU OR, if you wanna get real retro (lol), BW UU with Chansey being banned. Amoonguss doesn't counter these Pokemon as well as you say it does either, with it getting blown back by Natural Gift Ice Breloom, losing to Z-Beam Serperior (sorry if that isn't really run rn but still thought it was worth mentioning), and having to be wary of Liquidation defense drops if literally any kind of damaging hazard is on the field. Lastly, the rise of Moltres is definitely not in favor of Amoonguss either, neither is Breloom simply being another option for a Spore user.
Last edited:
It's shit, and there hasn't been an update yet. It's likely to be put in D-Rank until it inevitably drops.
Also, discussion on Ambipom is blacklisted, so it's a good idea to not bring it up.
The thing about Loom is that it has very little space to run other moves than Bullet Seed, Mach Punch and Spore. Spore is a must, there's no doubt about that. On a technician set, you probably run bullet seed and mach punch, otherwise you'd be walled by pert and alo if you forgo bullet seed. Moreover, you'd lose a possible 185 BP + stab move, which is not the best. Mach Punch + SD gives you the ability to sweep; priority is reallt nice on such a slow mon too.
On a Toxic Orb set you would probably run Toxic Orb and not Ganlon. Therefore, there's no room for Natural Gift in any of its sets, unless I'm missing something, which is very well possible.
1) Spore is not mandatory. It's certainly strong tech, but it can be swapped with usable coverage moves like Rock Tomb and Natural Gift. It's still essentially an Offensive Pokemon that can still find set-up opportunities without Spore.
Imo natural gift breloom sets are really situational and far from the “optimal” set atm. It still checks the vast majority loom running SD/STABs/Spore/Rock Tomb etc, and while I don’t have the usage statistics to back this up, ever since loom dropped I’ve been seeing far more of these sets and the lure Z move or berry sets.
As for the comment about passivity, usually the issue when a mon is too passive is that it allows for free set up, either hazards or boosts. While Amoongus is rocks and spikes fodder for stuff like klefki, gliscor etc, (which can be offset with good hazard control, which should always be on the balanced teams Amoongus thrives on) clear smog allows it to stop boosting threats and it covers stuff that’s immune to CS (read. Scizor) with spore and hp fire.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 304-358 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
So for starters it’s relatively easy to ascertain whether serp is Z-Beam, if it doesn’t have leftovers and the damage doesn’t indicate a plate, it’s either scarf or Z. This means that you go into Amoongus in the serp first time, take a leaf storm, figure the set and then either stay in on non-beam or switch to scout for the Z-Move. This play also works if they’re scarf, no one wants to stay in on an Amoongus to keep clicking leaf storm (and your scout is likely to be a steel anyway...) and the double is likely to work out for you anyway. The alternative is letting Amoongus take the BB, leaving around 10% and getting off a CS. You can then sack gus and go into a revenge killer, or just a hard hitter now that serp is at neutral, or switch and pivot back into Amoongus for the regen. You may end up having to sack a mon, but this is worst case scenario and can be played around.
As for the comparison between Amoongus and Loom, I don’t really see much in that. When I’m building with either mon, I don’t think “damn, I need a Spore user” rather the defensive utility that Amoongus provides or the offensive power of loom. They also both fit in different styles of team, so there isn’t much of an opportunity cost to using one over the other on teams better suited to each mon
Hilo's been bugging me for like two weeks to post finna finally show my homie some love.
Azumarill -> S: Hard Agree
Why this thing ever dropped was a travesty of justice. Check out Bushtush vs. Manipulative in SPL to see what happens when you don't prepare for the bunny, every free turn it claimed a life or significantly weakened Manipulative's team.
Moltres - > A- Agree
Yeah Moltres is fantastic right now, as long as you run it with a secondary form of hazard control it can really shine as a Scizor check and powerhouse with great Fire / Flying STABs on Bulky Offense, as well as a sturdy wall on Stall. It also is a great Breloom check, only fearing Rock Tomb, and outspeeding once safely in.
Starmie - > B+: Disagree
Starmie still is incredibly hard for offensive teams to switch into thanks to Analytic and it's fantastic coverage, its speed tier threatens basically all non Megas and Crobat, none of which like to switch into it, scouting it's coverage can be very problematic, and it has a fast emergency rapid spin available for teams that don't heavily rely on removal to work effectively. Alolan Muk isn't even a reliable answer to it, having a chance to die to Hydro Pumps after two rocks switch ins, attainable through smart double switching.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 169-200 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 130-153 (31.4 - 36.9%) -- 78.3% chance to 3HKO
Nihilego - > B: Agree
Nihilego can definitely put in work still, but metagame trends are not working to help it. It's not nearly as splashable as most of the things in B+, Scizor continues to hold the tier in its grip, Breloom added another strong physical priority user it has to watch out for, and Stakataka can switch into most of its non Z-moves for free, barring Grass Knot. I'd say Toxic Spikes sets probably take advantage of it the best right now.
Celebi - > B-: Disagree
Celebi is still really anti meta right now, it kills two of the main things holding it back, Scizor and A-Muk with a +2 Tectonic Rage, stall teams hate to fight it thanks to Giga Drain and Natural Cure giving it more sustain than a lot of common stallbreakers, and the fast rocks set with T-wave while not as splashable can be very annoying on the right team.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Have not used the other things on the discussion slate enough, I feel like Kyurem is way better than Abomasnow so my gut says for that not to rise, Lycanroc-D is fine at C rank, Accelerock is slighly useful, can be annoying for slower teams that rely on priority to kill sweepers, but for the most part Terrakion and Maero have it covered. Opinions on the rest of the slate below, don't take as much stock in these noms than the ones aove.
Mega Abomasnow B -> B: Disagree
Lycanroc-Dusk -> C+: Disagree
Slowbro - > Unranked: Agree
Aromatisee- > C-/C: Disagree
Uxie - > C-/C: Agree
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Personal Noms:
Mega Glalie - > C: Already made my post about this in the old thread, nothing's changed except for the removal of Rotom Wash, which means you aren't forced to run Freeze Dry to beat all the defoggers, Earthquake can be nice for the new Stakataka. Has a nice strong Ice Shard to revenge Breloom.
Pyukumuku - > C+: This was talked about today during the PS outreach for Underrated and Creative sets, and the Block Toxic Stalling set has some nice benefits over Quagsire such as a Water resistance, it's ability to perform exceptionally against opposing stall, and niche options like Counter to screw over physical wall breakers that Quagsire is forced to recover against. Unfortunately it does not have the amazing Ground typing that allows Quagsire to block Volt Switch, as well as being even more passive, with Quagsire at least boasting a STAB Earthquake to deter things. Pyuku also lets you build Stall with options like Mega Steelix, due to its typing making sure you don't stack Ground Types.
Azumarill -> S: Hard Agree
Why this thing ever dropped was a travesty of justice. Check out Bushtush vs. Manipulative in SPL to see what happens when you don't prepare for the bunny, every free turn it claimed a life or significantly weakened Manipulative's team.
Moltres - > A- Agree
Yeah Moltres is fantastic right now, as long as you run it with a secondary form of hazard control it can really shine as a Scizor check and powerhouse with great Fire / Flying STABs on Bulky Offense, as well as a sturdy wall on Stall. It also is a great Breloom check, only fearing Rock Tomb, and outspeeding once safely in.
Starmie - > B+: Disagree
Starmie still is incredibly hard for offensive teams to switch into thanks to Analytic and it's fantastic coverage, its speed tier threatens basically all non Megas and Crobat, none of which like to switch into it, scouting it's coverage can be very problematic, and it has a fast emergency rapid spin available for teams that don't heavily rely on removal to work effectively. Alolan Muk isn't even a reliable answer to it, having a chance to die to Hydro Pumps after two rocks switch ins, attainable through smart double switching.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 169-200 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 130-153 (31.4 - 36.9%) -- 78.3% chance to 3HKO
Nihilego - > B: Agree
Nihilego can definitely put in work still, but metagame trends are not working to help it. It's not nearly as splashable as most of the things in B+, Scizor continues to hold the tier in its grip, Breloom added another strong physical priority user it has to watch out for, and Stakataka can switch into most of its non Z-moves for free, barring Grass Knot. I'd say Toxic Spikes sets probably take advantage of it the best right now.
Celebi - > B-: Disagree
Celebi is still really anti meta right now, it kills two of the main things holding it back, Scizor and A-Muk with a +2 Tectonic Rage, stall teams hate to fight it thanks to Giga Drain and Natural Cure giving it more sustain than a lot of common stallbreakers, and the fast rocks set with T-wave while not as splashable can be very annoying on the right team.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Have not used the other things on the discussion slate enough, I feel like Kyurem is way better than Abomasnow so my gut says for that not to rise, Lycanroc-D is fine at C rank, Accelerock is slighly useful, can be annoying for slower teams that rely on priority to kill sweepers, but for the most part Terrakion and Maero have it covered. Opinions on the rest of the slate below, don't take as much stock in these noms than the ones aove.
Mega Abomasnow B -> B: Disagree
Lycanroc-Dusk -> C+: Disagree
Slowbro - > Unranked: Agree
Aromatisee- > C-/C: Disagree
Uxie - > C-/C: Agree
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Personal Noms:
Mega Glalie - > C: Already made my post about this in the old thread, nothing's changed except for the removal of Rotom Wash, which means you aren't forced to run Freeze Dry to beat all the defoggers, Earthquake can be nice for the new Stakataka. Has a nice strong Ice Shard to revenge Breloom.
Pyukumuku - > C+: This was talked about today during the PS outreach for Underrated and Creative sets, and the Block Toxic Stalling set has some nice benefits over Quagsire such as a Water resistance, it's ability to perform exceptionally against opposing stall, and niche options like Counter to screw over physical wall breakers that Quagsire is forced to recover against. Unfortunately it does not have the amazing Ground typing that allows Quagsire to block Volt Switch, as well as being even more passive, with Quagsire at least boasting a STAB Earthquake to deter things. Pyuku also lets you build Stall with options like Mega Steelix, due to its typing making sure you don't stack Ground Types.
Kyurem to A-At first, Kyurem seems overshadowed by other Dragons such as Latias, Hydreigon, and Mega Altaria. However, Kyurem is not to be underestimated, as it is very powerful. Lets start with the Specs set:
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire/Focus Blast
- Earth Power
This set is rather standard wallbreaker set. Draco Meteor is a powerful base 130 STAB move, OHKOing most pokemon that dont resist it. Ice Beam is ice STAB, HP Fire is mainly for Scizor, but Focus Blast can be used to have a chance to 2HKO Blissey after rocks:
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 302-356 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Earth Power not only has good coverage, but also hits steels if you dont want to risk HP Fire or Focus Blast. This set is a very powerful wallbreaker, not to be underestimated.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 451-532 (114.4 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 417-492 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crawdaunt: 177-208 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 130-153 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Against a Crobat that attempts to roost: 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 264-312 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 210-248 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 417-492 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crawdaunt: 177-208 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 130-153 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Against a Crobat that attempts to roost: 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 264-312 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 210-248 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also doesnt do bad defensively:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 307-361 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 336-396 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 156-186 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 176-210 (45 - 53.7%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 319-376 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 326-386 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 336-396 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Klefki Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 156-186 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 176-210 (45 - 53.7%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 319-376 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 326-386 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Next, lets go over its SubRoost set.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Roost
This set is rather self-explanatory: Substitute on the switch, and either deal chip damage or Roost off any potential damage you took. Ice Beam is the chosen STAB due to it already hitting Dragon instead of Dragon Pulse, and Earth Power is for hitting steels and other things that resist Ice Beam.
Lastly, lets look at its most overlooked set:
Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
This set is your average scarfer, designed for revenge killing and late game cleaning. The moves are the same as on the specs set, but I dont recommend HP Fire, since this set likes to switch a lot anyway, so hitting Scizor isnt very important. This set is a great lategame cleaner, revenge killer, and also has many key resistances. Sadly, weakness to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch and a weakness to rocks makes this set not that great, and suffers competition from Scarf Lati and scarf Hydreigon.
Tl;dr Bring Kyurem up to A- because of its key resistances, strong wallbreaking with specs, revenge sweeping/killing with Scarf, and its annoying SubRoost set in conjunction with Pressure.
Last edited:
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Agree/neutral with discussion slate except Starmie and Celebi going down.
Starmie is still exceptionally strong with Analytic, even stall teams don't actually have a good switch in except Blissey which is forced to always Heal after switching in a LO Psyshock. And it's speed tier is solidly above average while resisting a lot of priority making it an easy Pokemon to use on most offensive teams because of the utility this provides.
Celebi definitely shouldn't move down, especially being one of the best Breloom counters now. If anything, I would move it up because it can get around quite a few of the common Grass checks like Amoonguss and Crobat (on the switch at least) because of the Psychic typing. I still think Nasty Plot + Z Earth Power is the best set because only Blissey and Dragons are somewhat safe from it (and Kyurem, a rising Dragon in my opinion, can die to +2 Psychic with SR and always dies to +2 Z Earth Power with SR).
I think Decidueye should rise from C to B- or B because I think it's SD set is severely underrated right now.
Decidueye @ Decidium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
First of all for the set, Sucker Punch can be replaced with Shadow Sneak which is more reliable but weaker and doesn't hit Pidgeot. But they are basically very similar.
This set is good because it combats defensive teams very well, as a physical Grass type its naturally threatening to the Alo/Quag/Blissey core. Unlike Breloom, Decidueye has a very reliable nuke in Sinister Arrow Raid which is a better offensive typing than Breloom's Bullet Punch - very few teams run Ghost immunities outside of Pidgeot and Blissey and especially at +2 Z Spirit Shackle is going to maul even resistances.
For example, in this game Decidueye manages to find an easy time setting up on Swampert and lures in Muk - likely because my opponent is unfamiliar with Decidueye's power - OHKOing it with a +2 Sinister Arrow Raid (probably with a lucky roll to be sure). On the one hand Pidgeot seemed like a better switch in, on the other hand, this is only known is retrospect because 1) I could have U-Turned to rack up SR damage on Pidgeot 2) They values Pidgeot a lot because my team has no Flying resistances. I don't think the rest of the game deserves commentary because my opponent made some big mistakes, but early on, Decidueye already proved its worth.
And in this game Decidueye also shows off its power, removing Klefki and giving me a large advantage after that because my opponent becomes very weak to Crobat. They unnecessarily give me a pretty much decisive advantage by giving up Gengar but Decidueye was already useful when killing Klefki. In fact, it may have been even more useful if it saved the Z move for Altaria because I could simply 2HKO Klefki with +2 Spirit Shackle.
Another important point in assessing Decidueye's viability is the fact it can beat or badly damage most Grass checks. For example, Sap Sipper Azumarill and Amoonguss are both easily OHKOd by a +2 Sinister Arrow Raid. Latias dies to +2 Sucker Punch most of the time even without SR. Crobat and Togekiss are fairly solid but both drop to a +0 Sinister Arrow Raid, Crobat not even needing SR.
The Ghost + Grass combination is resisted by only a few Pokemon, such as Hydreigon and Mega Houndoom (and Muk-A but that's not taking +2 Sinister Arrow raid well at all). Fortunately, Decidueye can easily find a partner with one of the best Pokemon in the tier because of this in Azumarill - every Azumarill set is a good partner and Azumarill benefits from Decidueye's ability to remove most Water types and even check opposing Grass types like Serperior and Breloom. Primarina also works because of the same typing.
Overall Decidueye's movepool and typing heavily compensate for its below average stat distribution because it can take advantage of several long brewing metagame trends - the power of stall, the overuse of Amoonguss, and the lack of Ghost resistances in UU. Because of this, Decidueye has been heavily underrated and should be understood now as a relevant, although not mainstream, threat.
Starmie is still exceptionally strong with Analytic, even stall teams don't actually have a good switch in except Blissey which is forced to always Heal after switching in a LO Psyshock. And it's speed tier is solidly above average while resisting a lot of priority making it an easy Pokemon to use on most offensive teams because of the utility this provides.
Celebi definitely shouldn't move down, especially being one of the best Breloom counters now. If anything, I would move it up because it can get around quite a few of the common Grass checks like Amoonguss and Crobat (on the switch at least) because of the Psychic typing. I still think Nasty Plot + Z Earth Power is the best set because only Blissey and Dragons are somewhat safe from it (and Kyurem, a rising Dragon in my opinion, can die to +2 Psychic with SR and always dies to +2 Z Earth Power with SR).
I think Decidueye should rise from C to B- or B because I think it's SD set is severely underrated right now.
Decidueye @ Decidium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
First of all for the set, Sucker Punch can be replaced with Shadow Sneak which is more reliable but weaker and doesn't hit Pidgeot. But they are basically very similar.
This set is good because it combats defensive teams very well, as a physical Grass type its naturally threatening to the Alo/Quag/Blissey core. Unlike Breloom, Decidueye has a very reliable nuke in Sinister Arrow Raid which is a better offensive typing than Breloom's Bullet Punch - very few teams run Ghost immunities outside of Pidgeot and Blissey and especially at +2 Z Spirit Shackle is going to maul even resistances.
For example, in this game Decidueye manages to find an easy time setting up on Swampert and lures in Muk - likely because my opponent is unfamiliar with Decidueye's power - OHKOing it with a +2 Sinister Arrow Raid (probably with a lucky roll to be sure). On the one hand Pidgeot seemed like a better switch in, on the other hand, this is only known is retrospect because 1) I could have U-Turned to rack up SR damage on Pidgeot 2) They values Pidgeot a lot because my team has no Flying resistances. I don't think the rest of the game deserves commentary because my opponent made some big mistakes, but early on, Decidueye already proved its worth.
And in this game Decidueye also shows off its power, removing Klefki and giving me a large advantage after that because my opponent becomes very weak to Crobat. They unnecessarily give me a pretty much decisive advantage by giving up Gengar but Decidueye was already useful when killing Klefki. In fact, it may have been even more useful if it saved the Z move for Altaria because I could simply 2HKO Klefki with +2 Spirit Shackle.
Another important point in assessing Decidueye's viability is the fact it can beat or badly damage most Grass checks. For example, Sap Sipper Azumarill and Amoonguss are both easily OHKOd by a +2 Sinister Arrow Raid. Latias dies to +2 Sucker Punch most of the time even without SR. Crobat and Togekiss are fairly solid but both drop to a +0 Sinister Arrow Raid, Crobat not even needing SR.
The Ghost + Grass combination is resisted by only a few Pokemon, such as Hydreigon and Mega Houndoom (and Muk-A but that's not taking +2 Sinister Arrow raid well at all). Fortunately, Decidueye can easily find a partner with one of the best Pokemon in the tier because of this in Azumarill - every Azumarill set is a good partner and Azumarill benefits from Decidueye's ability to remove most Water types and even check opposing Grass types like Serperior and Breloom. Primarina also works because of the same typing.
Overall Decidueye's movepool and typing heavily compensate for its below average stat distribution because it can take advantage of several long brewing metagame trends - the power of stall, the overuse of Amoonguss, and the lack of Ghost resistances in UU. Because of this, Decidueye has been heavily underrated and should be understood now as a relevant, although not mainstream, threat.
I disagree with this nomination. It may have a lot of chances to set up in the metagame, but is outsped and OHKOed by a lot. It doesn't really appreciate the surges of Mega Aggrons and Mega Pidgeot's either. Also, when Decidueye is unboosted, it does very little due to its relatively low BP stab moves. Also, Crobat's rise to power really hurts, as it eats its leaf blade, and OHKOes with brave bird. Decidueye absolutely hates status infliction too, especially Burn and Paralysis. Burn severly limits it's wallbreaking capabilities and paralysis slows it down to laughable speeds. Also new threats like Kyurem, Moltres and Gengar destroy it. I generally think there are better options for a boosting mon, like Gliscor or Scizor, and is why I think Decidueye should stay C, it is niche and occasionally can put in work, but struggles to stand out and adapt to the metagame. Nothing notable has changed for it and i played against 2 last night and they both did nothing. Also, while Mandibuzz isn't too popular right now, it still completely destroys it. Other threats like Chandelure and Togekiss beat it easily too
Last edited:
I feel like B-/B is way too much for it as it has a relatively small niche in the meta. It’s main issue is the influx of M-Aggron being a major part in the meta. I do agree that it does well tearing apart defensive cores and being and offensive check to Breloom and Azumarill is neat and all, but it has a hard time switching in. It’s doomed once it gets paralyzed, burnt, or poisoned and is OHKO’d and outsped by a large portion in the meta. C fits it better overall
A lot of these calculations predicate on the fact that it gets a +2 up. Against a lot of the tier, its initially low Attack and low Speed makes it hard to force switches to get set-up opportunities except against Pokemon like Swampert or extremely passive Pokemon. With proper team support, I'm sure it can function effectively, but I don't really think that it's at the caliber of a B or B- Pokemon.
Last edited:
I really enjoyed Decidueye in the Rotom-W meta. I usually skipped Sucker Punch in favor of Sub, since it got free Subs on things like Rotom-W and Seismitoad. It’s a fantastic stallbreaker, especially with Wish support, and the raw power and excellent offensive typing of Sinister Arrow Raid can punch through a lot of things you wouldn’t expect. With washtom gone and a subsequent decrease in Seismi/Pert usage I’ve found it a little less useful (still great vs stall and fatter teams in general, but it lost the main thing it used to set up on when facing non-stall teams), but I do still think it’s solid.
Where do you think it should rise, if at all? I kinda think if you want a strong Z-move user use crawdaunt but what is ur opinion on it.
unboosted calcs
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Moltres: 267-315 (69.7 - 82.2%)
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron-Mega: 111-132 (32.2 - 38.3%)
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 309-364 (82.8 - 97.5%)
boosted calcs
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron-Mega: 220-261 (63.9 - 75.8%)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 426-502 (105.4 - 124.2%)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) (ofc no one is going to run max def but worst case scenario)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (greater chance ofc if not max hp)
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Moltres: 267-315 (69.7 - 82.2%)
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron-Mega: 111-132 (32.2 - 38.3%)
252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 309-364 (82.8 - 97.5%)
boosted calcs
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron-Mega: 220-261 (63.9 - 75.8%)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 426-502 (105.4 - 124.2%)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 346-408 (97.7 - 115.2%) (ofc no one is going to run max def but worst case scenario)
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (greater chance ofc if not max hp)
Last edited:
Nominating Yanmega: Unranked --> B-
The main downside to Yanmega is its incredibly unfavourable match up versus Stealth Rock - being a large reason as to why it's hardly ever considered when it comes to the UU metagame. Yanmega also requires a lot of support to function well, in this case it requires a dedicated hazard controller. Therefore, it's counter intuitive to run this alongside a Spike setter, seeing as Defog is the most reliable way of hazard control.
Other than support in the form of an adequate hazard controller, it's also hard walled by the main SpD 'mons in the tier, namely Mantine & Blissey. That's it though, Yanmega has a small number of safe switch-ins, Choice Specs Tinted Lens Bug Buzz (CSTLBB - lol) is very difficult to play around, seeing as its able to 2HKO everything on bulky/balance builds. In terms of handling its switch-ins, I find a decent Pursuit trapper such as Alolan-Muk is able to apply pressure.
Yanmega also has decent defensive typing, acting as a back up check to Grass types, a nice Fighting type 4 x resist, as well as a Ground immunity. Don't let Yanmega's typing dissuade you, with decent team support this Pokemon is an absolute powerhouse and is really fun to use. It's able to pressure cores such as Steel type + Gliscor + Tentacruel/Empoleon through the power of CSTLBB. I really recommend people try it out.
I can edit latter if replays etc. are required :]
The main downside to Yanmega is its incredibly unfavourable match up versus Stealth Rock - being a large reason as to why it's hardly ever considered when it comes to the UU metagame. Yanmega also requires a lot of support to function well, in this case it requires a dedicated hazard controller. Therefore, it's counter intuitive to run this alongside a Spike setter, seeing as Defog is the most reliable way of hazard control.
Other than support in the form of an adequate hazard controller, it's also hard walled by the main SpD 'mons in the tier, namely Mantine & Blissey. That's it though, Yanmega has a small number of safe switch-ins, Choice Specs Tinted Lens Bug Buzz (CSTLBB - lol) is very difficult to play around, seeing as its able to 2HKO everything on bulky/balance builds. In terms of handling its switch-ins, I find a decent Pursuit trapper such as Alolan-Muk is able to apply pressure.
Yanmega also has decent defensive typing, acting as a back up check to Grass types, a nice Fighting type 4 x resist, as well as a Ground immunity. Don't let Yanmega's typing dissuade you, with decent team support this Pokemon is an absolute powerhouse and is really fun to use. It's able to pressure cores such as Steel type + Gliscor + Tentacruel/Empoleon through the power of CSTLBB. I really recommend people try it out.
I can edit latter if replays etc. are required :]
Yanmega to B-: Disagree
Yanmega to something like C: Agree
Alright I can't support this nomination all the way up to B- in one swing. You already admit that it needs a ton of support and sports a 4x weakness to rocks; sure it has a really solid offensive presence but it still has trouble getting in and out safely. While its a great wallbreaker, it struggles to find a lot of free turns to get kills with. With the other Pokemon that is 4x weak to rocks that is commonly used, Moltres, has reliable recovery so it can afford to switch into rocks if it gets a free turn, you have to play even harder with Yanmega as it absolutely cannot come in with Stealth Rock, getting KO'd even easier with its laughable defenses. I can support this thing to C, but I've yet to see it actually come in useful and break through a team. With all the options to get up Rocks and Rockers being pretty similar to blanket check, I find it a bit of a stretch to bring this all the way up to B-.
Yanmega to something like C: Agree
Alright I can't support this nomination all the way up to B- in one swing. You already admit that it needs a ton of support and sports a 4x weakness to rocks; sure it has a really solid offensive presence but it still has trouble getting in and out safely. While its a great wallbreaker, it struggles to find a lot of free turns to get kills with. With the other Pokemon that is 4x weak to rocks that is commonly used, Moltres, has reliable recovery so it can afford to switch into rocks if it gets a free turn, you have to play even harder with Yanmega as it absolutely cannot come in with Stealth Rock, getting KO'd even easier with its laughable defenses. I can support this thing to C, but I've yet to see it actually come in useful and break through a team. With all the options to get up Rocks and Rockers being pretty similar to blanket check, I find it a bit of a stretch to bring this all the way up to B-.
Strongly agree. Dont get me wrong, I love Yanmega. However, UR to B- in one shift? I can see C being better fit for this. Even without rocks up, 86/86/56 defenses are terrible, and its sets arent much better. Specs Tinted Lens is nice, but is easily revenged due to its mediocore 95 speed. As for Speed Boost, its revenged by most common scarfers and Alolan Muk eats up its hits if its healthy, and Pursuit traps it:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 130-153 (31.4 - 36.9%) -- 78.3% chance to 3HKO
For these reasons, I disagree with Yanmega to B-, but agree with it to C.
I don't think you read the above post at all. His post mentioned how he uses CSTLBB, not life orb. Also, the calc is literally against one of the pokemon that the OP said yanmega is bad against. While I honestly do not know how good yanmega is, I think that it honestly could be b-. Now, instead of just typing a post and seeing what Yanmega does on paper as well as purposely attempting to try to show how it's bad, I'm going to attempt to use it on a team that properly supports it's niche in the meta rather than base my opinion on what it does on paper. Now, here are some calcs against what it will actually do well against.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 116 SpD Gliscor: 222-264 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 174-204 (47.9 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Mantine: 138-162 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 244-288 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 183-216 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( Ok, 1 calc just to show it's bulk)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 246-288 (71.9 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 168-200 (48.9 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 122-144 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is so typical of somebody on the VR to just take a wall of calcs and think it proves a point AT ALL.
Yanmega struggles to get free turns IMMENSELY. It doesn't get OHKOs on things and thats what good specs users like Kyurem and Volcanion do so well - on top of the fact that they get free turns way easier with their far better bulk / typing. Being weak to rocks means that after a SINGLE switchin on rocks, Yanmega is dying to everything from an uninvested Mega Aggron Heavy Slam to a Scarf Latias Psychic to a Scizor Bullet Punch. Its so incredibly frail to begin with - there is a high chance to OHKO it with a Life Orb Latias Psychic. All of your calcs mean nothing ("252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 183-216 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ( Ok, 1 calc just to show it's bulk)", what kind of bulk is that?) except that Yanmega just gets a bunch of 2HKOs and while its neutral coverage is really good it has terrible super-effective coverage unlike other specs users, say Primarina or the previously mentioned Volcanion or Kyurem.
Speaking of which, I'm nomming Volcanion to B+.
This thing is an absolute monster and if you get it in on the right times, it gets off a monster high powered hit that just destroys everything that hits it. Most Fire resists in UU are weak to Water, and a lot of Water resists are weak to Fire. Due to Water Absorb, Water-types are not doing much to Volcanion AT ALL. A Water type thats not dirt-slow, beats grass types, and a fire type that beats rock and ground types is incredibly useful in this meta, not to mention its great typing (4x resists Fire, Ice, and Steel while being immune to water) and actually amazing 80/120/90 bulk allows it to switch in on a lot of things, as well as beat things easier 1v1.
replay here of volcanion just WINNING: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-702333881
in this replay Volcanion actually does a lot of work in being able to take hits and do some crucial damage with RESISTED hits. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-345647
I'll see if I can get some more replays tomorrow since its late, but seriously, this is a good Pokemon that can also run a formidable scarf set as well.
I think you're missing the entire point of using Yanmega over literally any other specs user. It's niche lies in tinted lens, and solely in tinted lens. This is where Yanmega shines. It has very little switch-ins here. Also, the argument of it being bad due to rocks weakness is kind of weak, as it was already established that it works best on teams with good hazard removal. Also, it missing out on OHKO's isn't terrible, it's a wallbreaker, that's what it does, reliably damages mons and heavily punishes switches.
It doesn't force switches to punish in the first place, because it doesn't immediately threaten ANYTHING with an OHKO because of lack of initial power, and is really frail and goes down to neutral hits. It has really good neutral coverage because of tinted lens, I already said this. Sure it works best on teams with good hazard removal, but that makes it even harder to play with and keep it useful and relevant in the match. You already said in your first post that you don't know how good Yanmega is because you have not used it. I actually tried it out and I really didn't think it did very much in the matches I played with it... So yes, I think I am missing the entire point of using Yanmega over literally any other specs user: I don't think there is a point good enough to put it in B-.
Nominating Glalie-Mega to B/B-
I've been trying Glalie on some teams lately and I found out it has a great cleaning/wallbreaking potential, perfoming well against both offensive and balanced to stall teams.
ice boi (Glalie) @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Return
This set is the set I've running. Return hits very strongly neutral mons, Ice Shard for priority, and eq for coverage against steel types (although it can't really 2ohko most steel-type mons - the best it can do is 2ohko klefki). Freeze-Dry is for Swampert, Seismitoad, and the more rare Mantine. I recommend using Glalie mega to clean up stuff after your opponents mons have taken chip damage, and mons that can deal with steel types are appreciated (Nape, Magneton, most water types).
I have only 2 replays with this team, I forgot to save the others (played 6 or 7 matches with this team in a room tour)
Also, I think B/B- is fitting for it because despite it being viable in this tier it's not good enough to compete with other cleaners, and the wallbreakers listed on these ranks are on the same boat
I've been trying Glalie on some teams lately and I found out it has a great cleaning/wallbreaking potential, perfoming well against both offensive and balanced to stall teams.
ice boi (Glalie) @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Return
This set is the set I've running. Return hits very strongly neutral mons, Ice Shard for priority, and eq for coverage against steel types (although it can't really 2ohko most steel-type mons - the best it can do is 2ohko klefki). Freeze-Dry is for Swampert, Seismitoad, and the more rare Mantine. I recommend using Glalie mega to clean up stuff after your opponents mons have taken chip damage, and mons that can deal with steel types are appreciated (Nape, Magneton, most water types).
I have only 2 replays with this team, I forgot to save the others (played 6 or 7 matches with this team in a room tour)
Also, I think B/B- is fitting for it because despite it being viable in this tier it's not good enough to compete with other cleaners, and the wallbreakers listed on these ranks are on the same boat
Last edited:
- Status