USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[sparrow]

Yanmega to B-: Disagree
Yanmega to something like C: Agree
Alright I can't support this nomination all the way up to B- in one swing. You already admit that it needs a ton of support and sports a 4x weakness to rocks; sure it has a really solid offensive presence but it still has trouble getting in and out safely. While its a great wallbreaker, it struggles to find a lot of free turns to get kills with. With the other Pokemon that is 4x weak to rocks that is commonly used, Moltres, has reliable recovery so it can afford to switch into rocks if it gets a free turn, you have to play even harder with Yanmega as it absolutely cannot come in with Stealth Rock, getting KO'd even easier with its laughable defenses. I can support this thing to C, but I've yet to see it actually come in useful and break through a team. With all the options to get up Rocks and Rockers being pretty similar to blanket check, I find it a bit of a stretch to bring this all the way up to B-.

Hey man, thanks for the feedback, I'm definitely interested in what others have to say about Yanmega. I felt I was kinda low balling the suggestion to B- at first, because Yanmega is very effective as a breaker. Especially in a meta with Breloom, Gliscor, Hippowdon & Amoonguss running around, but ultimately decided that B- was fitting. I'd like to explain my reasoning and also include some replays to help justify my position here. Understand that my opinion is quite subjective, I've been able to use Yanmega on the ladder quite a bit, so others opinions are greatly appreciated.

You stated that Yanmega struggles to find free turns to come in and break, I somewhat agree with this, mostly due to the immense pressure that Stealth Rock applies. Yanmega has some really useful resistances and immunities that work really well in this meta, in particular coming in on some common 'mons that I mentioned above give it plenty of free turns. Sure you must be careful of U-turn from Gliscor, or Spore from Amoonguss and Breloom but that's Pokemon for ya, circumstances change through out the match.

Stealth Rock isn't impossible to remove, Defog is every where, obviously you're somewhat forced to prioritise their removal through out the game. As a bonus, Yanmega has the ability to offensively pressure most bulky Stealth Rock setters in UU, excluding Blissey of course. Offensive Stealth Rock setters can be managed by Yanmega's team mates, and that's where things do become tricky when trying to Defog, not impossible!

My main reason for suggesting a move to B- was when it came to looking at it comparatively to other 'mons within that bracket. I feel it's at least comparable to Aurorus and Alolan-Sandslash which must be ran together to achieve their objective. It's somewhat outclassed in its role, similar to Florges (Florges gets Defog, Yanmega has breaking power/U-turn, with unique/useful resistances as a breaker). I'd also consider it to be similar in level if not better than Pokemon such as Kommo-o, Talonflame, Toxicroak and Zygarde-10% as an offensive Pokemon.

Looking at Pokemon on offence that Yanmega is able to outpace we have: Breloom, Crawdaunt (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 242-286 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Heracross, Krookodile, Mamoswine (252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 195-229 (62.3 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO // 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 340-402 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) and Nidoking (252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 258-304 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). I agree Yanmega's Speed tier lets it down somewhat, but what on offence safely switches into Yanmega? And it's utilised as a breaker, not an anti-offence 'mon.

Yanmega has reasonable defensive bulk too, tanking hits from the likes of +2 Crawdaunt and Ice Shard Mamoswine are such examples. Heck its an offensive Pokemon that can take a Poison Jab from m-Beedrill, whilst quad resisting U-turn! +2 Iron Head from Cobalion fails to OHKO, nor does +2 Facade from Gliscor, and even +2 Extreme Speed from Lucario!

I'd like to see more discussion based on Yanmega, its clearly a viable threat in the metagame, maybe I'm being too subjective with B- suggestion, but I've tried to be as objective as possible. In short, its great typing lets it force switches, which is dangerous on a Pokemon with the capability to 2HKO a good portion of the metagame. Thanks for comments in advance!

Set

Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Giga Drain

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700952652 - lucky Air Slash flinch early game, although my opponent struggled to switch into Yanmega once the Golbat was weakned.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700950336 - once Hydreigon went down, and it was revealed that Scizor could counter, likely, Scarf Terrakion, my opponent realised they had nothing to switch into Yanmega after turn 10.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700949761 - no explanation necessary.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700911223 - early game Yanmega harassing switch-ins.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700907284 - no switch-ins.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700896158 - Yanmega sweep?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700891029 - early game damage by Yanmega is nice, weird Mach Punch play by opponent.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-702305221 - versus Kyurem, Diancie, Mantine, Scizor.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-701443966 - versus Cookeees clone, that was forced to switch into Blissey each time (Adamant Infernape made it easier too, LOL).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-701437962 - against semi-stall opponent is reckless with Blissey.

 

[billionbattler]

Hey man, thanks for the feedback, I'm definitely interested in what others have to say about Yanmega. I felt I was kinda low balling the suggestion to B- at first, because Yanmega is very effective as a breaker. Especially in a meta with Breloom, Gliscor, Hippowdon & Amoonguss running around, but ultimately decided that B- was fitting. I'd like to explain my reasoning and also include some replays to help justify my position here. Understand that my opinion is quite subjective, I've been able to use Yanmega on the ladder quite a bit, so others opinions are greatly appreciated.

You stated that Yanmega struggles to find free turns to come in and break, I somewhat agree with this, mostly due to the immense pressure that Stealth Rock applies. Yanmega has some really useful resistances and immunities that work really well in this meta, in particular coming in on some common 'mons that I mentioned above give it plenty of free turns. Sure you must be careful of U-turn from Gliscor, or Spore from Amoonguss and Breloom but that's Pokemon for ya, circumstances change through out the match.

Stealth Rock isn't impossible to remove, Defog is every where, obviously you're somewhat forced to prioritise their removal through out the game. As a bonus, Yanmega has the ability to offensively pressure most bulky Stealth Rock setters in UU, excluding Blissey of course. Offensive Stealth Rock setters can be managed by Yanmega's team mates, and that's where things do become tricky when trying to Defog, not impossible!

My main reason for suggesting a move to B- was when it came to looking at it comparatively to other 'mons within that bracket. I feel it's at least comparable to Aurorus and Alolan-Sandslash which must be ran together to achieve their objective. It's somewhat outclassed in its role, similar to Florges (Florges gets Defog, Yanmega has breaking power/U-turn, with unique/useful resistances as a breaker). I'd also consider it to be similar in level if not better than Pokemon such as Kommo-o, Talonflame, Toxicroak and Zygarde-10% as an offensive Pokemon.

Looking at Pokemon on offence that Yanmega is able to outpace we have: Breloom, Crawdaunt (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 242-286 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Heracross, Krookodile, Mamoswine (252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 195-229 (62.3 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO // 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 340-402 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) and Nidoking (252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 258-304 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). I agree Yanmega's Speed tier lets it down somewhat, but what on offence safely switches into Yanmega? And it's utilised as a breaker, not an anti-offence 'mon.

Yanmega has reasonable defensive bulk too, tanking hits from the likes of +2 Crawdaunt and Ice Shard Mamoswine are such examples. Heck its an offensive Pokemon that can take a Poison Jab from m-Beedrill, whilst quad resisting U-turn! +2 Iron Head from Cobalion fails to OHKO, nor does +2 Facade from Gliscor, and even +2 Extreme Speed from Lucario!

I'd like to see more discussion based on Yanmega, its clearly a viable threat in the metagame, maybe I'm being too subjective with B- suggestion, but I've tried to be as objective as possible. In short, its great typing lets it force switches, which is dangerous on a Pokemon with the capability to 2HKO a good portion of the metagame. Thanks for comments in advance!

Set

Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Giga Drain

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700952652 - lucky Air Slash flinch early game, although my opponent struggled to switch into Yanmega once the Golbat was weakned.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700950336 - once Hydreigon went down, and it was revealed that Scizor could counter, likely, Scarf Terrakion, my opponent realised they had nothing to switch into Yanmega after turn 10.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700949761 - no explanation necessary.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700911223 - early game Yanmega harassing switch-ins.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700907284 - no switch-ins.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700896158 - Yanmega sweep?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-700891029 - early game damage by Yanmega is nice, weird Mach Punch play by opponent.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-702305221 - versus Kyurem, Diancie, Mantine, Scizor.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-701443966 - versus Cookeees clone, that was forced to switch into Blissey each time (Adamant Infernape made it easier too, LOL).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-701437962 - against semi-stall opponent is reckless with Blissey.

How does yanmega outspeed mamo at all when every mamo in existence runs ice shard and 2HKOs yanmega and yanmega 2HKOs mamo with CSTLBB so yanmega loses that MU 1v1 always and yanmega would lose to every rocker except pert which could cripple yanmega with toxic.
Keep it UR or to C-

 

[sparrow]

How does yanmega outspeed mamo at all when every mamo in existence runs ice shard and 2HKOs yanmega and yanmega 2HKOs mamo with CSTLBB so yanmega loses that MU 1v1 always and yanmega would lose to every rocker except pert which could cripple yanmega with toxic.
Keep it UR or to C-

Did you see the Specs Giga Drain calc / read that post. It also recovers >54% of Yanmega's health. I'd appreciate an objective point of view here, especially when it comes to how important VR is to all players. It's sad people already don't want to post here, because they're afraid of being attacked personally instead of engaging in important discussion.

 

[billionbattler]

Did you see the Specs Giga Drain calc / read that post. It also recovers >54% of Yanmega's health. I'd appreciate an objective point of view here, especially when it comes to how important VR is to all players.

Yanmega would rather be locked into bug buzz than giga drain as bug buzz has a higher overall damage output than any of its other moves

 

[nlogax]

Yanmega would rather be locked into bug buzz than giga drain as bug buzz has a higher overall damage output than any of its other moves

I feel like that's a really big blanket statement to make. Why is it so special for Yanmega to always only be locked into its highest base power move? Why even carry giga drain if you believe Yanmega is always going to want to use bug buzz? Remember -- the Yanmega set being suggested here is tinted lens, not speed boost, meaning Yanmega isn't intended to be a sweeper that can steamroll through teams with its strongest moves. It just uses its good base speed to pick up KOs in a way that other mons in the tier can't quite do.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

I feel like that's a really big blanket statement to make. Why is it so special for Yanmega to always only be locked into its highest base power move? Why even carry giga drain if you believe Yanmega is always going to want to use bug buzz? Remember -- the Yanmega set being suggested here is tinted lens, not speed boost, meaning Yanmega isn't intended to be a sweeper that can steamroll through teams with its strongest moves. It just uses its good base speed to pick up KOs in a way that other mons in the tier can't quite do.

What? Its a true blanket statment. Why would Yanmega want to be locked into Giga Drain over Bug Buzz when it has great coverage already? It's pretty common sense that it wants to be locked into Bug Buzz and it will be most of the time because of Tinted Lens giving it little drawback. Also, haven't we established that Yanmega DOESN'T pick up OHKOs, but 2HKOs, and thats why its not really that good of an option on top of all the extensive support it requires to functionally run on a team?

Don't get me wrong, I know I'm really harping on the negatives on Yanmega but its actually not terrible. I wouldn't use it very often but I do see its merits on the right team - but the right team needs to be specifically tailored to it and thats why I don't think it should be all the way up at B- straight from being previously unranked.

 

[Hilomilo]

Let’s move on from discussion on Yanmega for now. The ranking council will consider its placement upon using it some more (meaning it’ll likely take another update before it potentially finds a rank), but this kind of discussion just isn’t productive. The update should be out later today. Be civil in the meantime please.

 

[Pearl]

Just dropping by to say that we have (finally) updated the thread's banner! Big shout out to HotFuzzBall for, once again, putting an amazing piece of art together for us

Banner

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
To start, we'll go over the placements of new Pokemon recently introduced to the tier:

Breloom -> A
Breloom has quickly emerged as a fearsome offensive threat since its reintroduction. Technician Mach Punch is a massive boon for teams looking to work around threats like Mega Sharpedo and Stakataka, while Swords Dance, Spore, and Breloom's typing all allow it to apply heavy pressure to the majority of popular team archetypes. Breloom can also work around a lot of its few defensive checks through the use of moves like Rock Tomb or Natural Gift if it's holding a Ganlon Berry. The main reason for its lack of placement in A+ is its lacking defensive utility. Breloom's horrible defenses allow faster Mach Punch resists, which are plentiful in the metagame, to prevent it from putting in a lot of work until later on in a match, while it can also struggle to comfortably set up. While its immediate impact after setup can be felt, the tier is slowly adapting to Breloom's presence through praying on its frailty, which justifies A for now.

Mega Houndoom -> B+
The ranking council ultimately decided that B+ was a good starting point for Mega Houndoom, as it has a few key tools over Salazzle to warrant a slightly higher ranking. Despite a worse speed tier, it has greater immediate power, more opportunities to set up due to better bulk, and a more spammable STAB attack in the form of Dark Pulse. Mega Houndoom also has the room to customize its fourth move slot to what it wants or needs most, and due to these perks is rationalized in being a rank higher than its main competition as a Fire-type late-game cleaner, a role it's quite consistent at.

Ambipom -> D
This shouldn't require an explanation, but I'll go ahead and make it clear that having a niche is not automatically synonymous with having viability in a metagame. As you should already know, discussion on this Pokemon is blacklisted, so please don't talk about it.

With that out of the way, it's time to go over the changes that are being put through. Here they are:
Rises

A+ -> S

C -> C+

C- -> C

UR -> C-

UR -> C-

Drops

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

B -> B-

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C -> C-

Reasons for Rises

Constantly fluctuating ranks, Azumarill is rising back to S on the basis of its stronger influence in the metagame than anything else in A+. It’s proven that it can abuse free turns incredibly well, be that through firing off a strong attack, setting up with Belly Drum, or trapping traditional switch-ins like Amoonguss and Tentacruel with its Perish Song set. It’s an incredible Pokemon that since dropping, has proven to be as consistent, important to prepare for, and influential as what else is in S.

Decidueye truly shines against stall builds thanks to its typing, access to Spirit Shackle, and the power its boosted Sinister Arrow Raid possesses. Stall’s recently increased viability is grounds for the additional boosted rank of Decidueye.

Cresselia rose on the basis of being a better dedicated Trick Room setter than Uxie, which is now in C-, due to its invaluable access to Lunar Dance. Uxie’s new placement in the rankings is justified as while not as strong a pick as Cresselia, it can still provide Trick Room teams with massive additional utility in the forms of Memento, U-turn, and/or Stealth Rock. While Trick Room hype has died down since Stakataka’s introduction, the archetype is still viable, which is why these Pokemon still deserve ranks.

Pyukumuku has a proven niche in the tier as a great trapper with Block, Soak, and Toxic. Its ability and colossal defensive stats can also prove useful in dealing with Pokemon that could otherwise annoy stall, like Perish Trapping Azumarill sets and Work Up Mega Pidgeot. Overall a Pokemon with a niche valuable enough to warrant a rank, which is why C- is fair.

Reasons for Drops

Providing teams with a defensive check to Azumarill, Cobalion, and Infernape among other Pokemon is certainly valuable, but Tentacruel’s susceptibility to being worn down in tandem with the prevalence of Pokemon that beat it 1v1 (Latias, Manectric, etc.) is also worth considering when trying to assess its viability. Right now, it’s about as consistent at its role as another Water-type remover in Empoleon, which further justifies its drop.

Gengar gives almost all of Nihilego’s sets a considerable amount of competition as a specially offensive Poison-type, leaving only Stealth Rock as a set it can pull off without facing fairly severe competition. Its typing and special bulk can justify its use when it comes to dealing with Pokemon such as Mega Pidgeot and Mega Manectric, though this is still not enough to maintain B+ due to Nihilego’s decrease in versatility.

This drop wasn’t discussed at all in the thread, though Bewear does face a fair amount of competition as a slower Fighting-type Swords Dance user given that Breloom is now in the tier. It’s also generally worse than what else is in B at this stage due to some of its niches, like checking Stakataka and Mega Sharpedo, having decreased urgence.

Zygarde-10% isn’t as viable as before on account of both the decreased viability of spikes offense and the tier’s loss of Rotom-W, which heavily influenced Zygarde rising in the first place. It can still put in work as a fast and strong Ground-type, and is particularly annoying for offensive teams to work around. However, its main niches over its competition aren’t as useful as they once were.

Azumarill gives Feraligatr significant competition as a Water-type sweeper/wallbreaker, especially considering that by virtue of its typing and bulk, Azumarill has a lot more opportunities to accumulate stat boosts. Feraligatr still has some niches over Azu, such as its Steel-type resistance and the ability to boost Speed, though this isn’t enough to keep it from dropping a subrank.

Nidoqueen is just a generally underwhelming Pokemon in the UnderUsed metagame. It can check a few select offensive threats, like Terrakion and Mega Beedrill, which justifies not going unranked. However, its several common weaknesses and huge competition as both a bulky Poison- and Ground-type prevent it from reasonably being ranked anywhere other than C-.

Rejected Nominations

Alolan Muk remains A
By virtue of its ability to handle the majority of UU’s special attackers, Alolan Muk is most definitely one of the tier’s more defining Pursuit trappers. However, it has a few notable flaws that prevent it from being A+ material. It’s very susceptible to being worn down, can sacrifice free turns to huge threats such as Gliscor and Cobalion, and is hampered by its poor Speed and Defense stats. Still an amazing Pokemon with several pros, but not enough so that its cons are sufficiently outweighed.

Moltres remains B+
Despite the outpouring of support for this nomination, Moltres is staying B+ for now. It continues to respond really well to metagame trends and has definitely proven its worth as both an offensive and defensive powerhouse. However, its Stealth Rock weakness and generally lacking consistency compared to the rest of A- is why staying where it is for now is fine. Certainly one of the better Pokemon in B+, but it just isn’t quite good enough for A- yet.

Krookodile remains B+
Krookodile has proven in recent tournament matches that it still has enough worth in the tier for B+ to be justified. While the Choice Scarf set may not be thriving right now, Taunt and Z-Move sets are proving their worth and Krookodile’s access to tools like Pursuit and a fast Earthquake certainly aid it in providing for its team. It hasn’t responded to some recent metagame trends super well, though due to its benefits this isn’t an automatic reason for a drop.

Quagsire remains B
Quagsire isn’t as much of a stall staple as Blissey or Alomomola, nor is it as splashable on other team archetypes. This, despite stall’s increased viability, is why refraining from rising to B+ is fair for it.

Mega Abomasnow remains B-
Mega Abomasnow has certainly improved with the recent rise in Trick Room viability, though Breloom’s introduction into the tier definitely hurts it in that it both faces competition as an offensive Grass-type and has a very shaky matchup against the very Pokemon it currently competes with. Trick Room hype is also dying down, which only furthers the argument for staying in B- for now.

Lycanroc-Dusk remains C
Another Pokemon that was close to rising, but is currently too hampered by Breloom’s introduction to do so. Not only does Lycanroc-Dusk lose to Breloom almost 100% of the time, but it also faces increased competition as a late-game cleaner with priority, especially considering that Mach Punch is generally the better priority attack at this stage of the meta.

Slowbro remains C-
Slowbro still has a few valuable defensive niches that despite being considerably worse than ever before, allow it to maintain its C- ranking. Its role as a defensive pivot on bulkier or balanced builds is valued thanks to its ability to check Cobalion and Infernape among a few other Pokemon, which justifies being just on the cusp of viability.

As for the Yanmega and Mega Glalie nominations that were made, the ranking council currently doesn't have enough experience with either Pokemon to determine whether or not they deserve placement right now. Somewhere in the B rankings is probably a little generous for the time being, though they'll likely have enough usage from our council to have a decided rank (or a decided lack of a rank) by the next update. Now it's time for my favorite part of our updates, the discussion points!

Discussion Slate

Amoonguss A -> A+
Its typing and ability give it amazing use as a blanket check to several top threats, including Azumarill, Primarina, Serperior, and the newly introduced Breloom, which could ultimately justify rising. However, Amoonguss is incredibly passive and also gives up a fair amount of free-turns, most notably against Gliscor. Whether or not it’s as good as the rest of A+ due to this is worth putting into question.

Stakataka A -> A-
Stakataka hype has definitely died down since it was first introduced to the tier. Initially seen as possibly unhealthy by some, Stakataka has proven to be a lot easier to stand up to in practice, especially now that Breloom is around. Whether it should drop is worth discussing, due to potentially being more on the level of the A- mons than the likes of Mamoswine and Cobalion.

Primarina A -> A-
Azumarill may not also be a special attacker, though its shared typing means that Primarina struggles more than before to find a place on teams. Regardless of its increased competition, Primarina still severely lacks reliable offensive switch-ins, which could absolutely warrant staying in A.

Mega Beedrill A- -> B+
Mega Beedrill is still a fantastic offensive pivot, though it struggles to keep up with a few metagame trends, such as the influx in Mega Aggron usage, stall’s increased viability, and Choice Scarf users like Latias, Infernape, and Hydreigon being fairly prevalent. Whether this is grounds for dropping is worth discussing, especially considering Mega Beedrill’s still incredibly useful Speed tier.

Doublade B+ -> B
Doublade is very lacking in usage, which keeps it from really being a proven threat. It also doesn’t fare well against a few popular Pokemon and playstyles, including Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, and stall. Despite this, it checks the likes of Breloom, Cobalion, and Mega Altaria among other threats quite well.

Rotom-C B -> B+
Rotom-C is a fairly consistent offensive defogger on account of the many switches it can force in order to remove entry hazards. Its typing is also incredibly useful for covering Water- and Ground-types more reliably than other Pokemon of similar types. The average stats do hurt it quite a bit, however, especially considering its poor matchup against a prevalent team archetype in stall.

Alolan Marowak B -> B-/C+
Alolan Marowak resides in a metagame that truly is not kind to it. Pursuit is very prevalent, it’s heavily worn down by both Stealth Rock and Flare Blitz recoil (this is assuming it’s running Lightning Rod, which in most cases is the preferred ability), and several top tier threats apply heavy pressure to it, some examples being Hydreigon, Azumarill, and Mega Aerodactyl, due to its poor typing and Speed. All of these flaws cause several other breakers to be worth considering before Alolan Marowak, which brings dropping from B into question.

(Discussion regarding the placements of new drops is also very much encouraged, since both Mega Houndoom and Breloom are still fairly new to the tier. Ambipom won't leave D however, so don't push it)

Hope you guys enjoyed. Let's have some more productive discussion this time around, please. Happy posting!

 

[explodingdaisies]

Amoonguss: I agree. A check to the 2 biggest threats in the meta right now, breloom and azumarill. Not something any mon can do.

Breloom: Disagree. This mon should be A+ at the minimum. It was a grievous mistake unbanning this thing. Everyone already knows why it's ridiculously strong so i won't list them.

Marowak-Alola: Disagree. While it is pursuit and rocks weak, this mon can still do plently of things. Complete stop to m-mane(prob the best mega in the tier atm) sets up rocks, has access to wil-o-wisp, and can soft check breloom due to its typing.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Amoonguss to A+ On the fence - Amoonguss is fantastic early game. Gliscor still has to activate toxic orb so, it can't switch-in on Amoon so easily, or else it'll go to sleep; which is big considering that could be the rocker, momentum, and/or check to the other threats on your team like guts heracross. Regenerator is fantastic too, especially paired with alomola, hydreigon, latias, or mega aggron. Considering how fat it is, it can take a flamethrower/fire blast from scarf volcanion from full (roll after rocks depending on the EV spread) then switch out to the fire resist while gaining back HP. It's incredible at what it can take from mons like Latias, Hydreigon, Azu, Breloom, Cobalion, Mega Mane, etc. The reason why I'm on the fence, though, is that it's not that great mid-late game. A lot of the times it doesn't have recovery (clear smog, spore, giga drain, and hp fire), leaving it to rely on regen recovery. The problem with that is it has to switch out to gain back HP a lot of the times or rely on getting back a low amount of HP from black sludge and/or giga drain. It relies heavily on spore to be dangerous, which doesn't last forever (as a threatening move). And relies heavily on teammates to pick up on it's slack. Breloom (natural gift) and Azu (trap set or ice punch) have a way of dealing with Amoon so, sometimes you have to scout what moveset they'll have which can be dangerous, as azu has belly drum and breloom has spore.

Mega Beedrill to B+ Agree - EDIT - My bad, had a brain fart and misunderstood the reasoning for the drop. Yeah, the scarfers being prevalent and mega aggron gaining usage are both good reasons for M-Bee dropping because that means more teams have more natural checks to M-Bee. (Bulky, Pursuit Banded, LO Pursuit/Bullet Punch) Scizor and Mega Aero (with roost or pursuit) can make M-Bee feel like a dead weight sometimes. Banded Azu heavily pressures M-Bee (A-Jet KO's it & banded doesn't have many switch-ins in the meta). Considering how the meta is, M-Bee is having a tough time fitting in. The speed is great and helps out VoltTurn a lot but, sometimes it can be a hindrance considering what's in the meta.

 

[yeezyknows]

some quick thoughts on the noms as i snooze through a 2 hour lecture

Amoonguss A -> A+

Disagree. While amoon is a great defensive mon, in no way should its viability be as high as A+, as even A-rank should be considered questionable. While it does counter several strong metagame threats, it's ultimately too passive and not near centralizing enough defensively to be worthy of an A+ rank.

Stakataka A -> A-

Agree. Numerous hard checks/counters exist, and it can be incredibly difficult to fit a devoted TR sweeper onto a large majority of builds. It's lack of usage in SPL affirms this.

Primarina A -> A-

Agree. Primarina's still a great mon, but in a meta where it's largely overshadowed and outclassed by azu, its VR should drop accordingly.

Mega Beedrill A- -> B+

Agree. While it's far from being a bad mon, being in a meta filled with nearly omnipresent steel usage and gliscors on every other team has done nothing but hurt drill's overall viability. Adding to this is the loss of washtom on volt-turn builds and the fact that drill is outclassed by megas like mane and maero on the offensive builds where it had previously thrived.

Doublade B+ -> B.

Agree. The emergence of new stall/semistall builds and techs, as evidenced by the recent suspect test, has drastically lowered doublade's overall viability. The mola-bliss-doublade defensive core that had been commonplace on defensive builds in earlier metas is a rarity in the current metagame. While doublade still retains strong overall utility, it's not nearly as good as it used to be.

Rotom-C B -> B+

Disagree. Admittedly, I haven't seen too much cuttom usage, but that in and of itself should be a sign that its viability shouldn't rise. Its utility on both defensive and offensive ends is limited, and it only really has a favorable matchup when playing against fully offensive builds. It's nowhere near good enough to warrant being at B+


A Marowak B -> B-/C+

Disagree. While its remained largely unnoticed recently, Alowak is subtly a solid mon. It has respectable versatility on a decent amount of builds, as having access to rocks, an electric immunity, and two immensely powerful offensive STABs should not go unnoticed. B is the perfect rank for the mon.


I want to toss out another nom too: M-Pidge to A. It's legitimately such a good offensive mon, as work up smashes through any build that errs even slightly on the passive end. An aggressive double with pidge is almost certain to either net you a kill or give you immense momentum against nearly every offensive build, and most balance builds too. Great offensive breaker, and i'm gonna keep plugging its viablity whenever possible.

 

[Freeroamer]

Im surprised Doublade is being plugged for a drop straight after Breloom has dropped. Admittedly it’s like everything else in that it has to work around Spore, but unlike pretty much everything once Breloom has got its Spore off it’s a complete stop, no Natural Gift bullshit or whatever (that’s viable anyway!). Hell you can even let it get spored, stay in and Iron Head+Sneak will do 98 min to every set apart from that Bulk Up set posted in the next best thing thread. SD will beat that set but you need to give something else up to sleep.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Amoonguss A > A+ Agree:
I think what could’ve backed Amoonguss down a long time ago would’ve been passivability. But Spore is a borderline broken move all by its self and forces the opponent to swap their mon out and try to force the sleep clause. The only things that really swap into it are grass types which most of them fear Amoonguss. Another thing that should be noticed is it’s defensive typing and stats with Regenerator. It allows it to consistently counter/check threats like Breloom, Serperior, Azumarill, and Mega-Mane.

Stakataka A > A- Agree:
I still think Stakataka is a great late game sweeper. However it’s biggest problem is getting the Trick Room up and taking a super effective hit. Most of our UU top threats have a way to hit Stakataka hard and they usually don’t have to be fighting or ground types. Latias can carry Surf, Band or Swords Dance Scizor carries Superpower, Gengar has Focus Blast, and M-Altaria can carry Earthquake. Meaning getting the trick Room up takes a lot of support.

Primarina A > A- Agree:
I do agree on this drop considering the meta isn’t too kind to it but I will say that it does have a niche over its blue rabbit and that is it’s matchup vs bulky waters. Azumarill fears getting Scald burnt and Tentacruel for the most part walls it (sort of), but Primarina is able to hit them hard while giving less of a worry of a little bit of boiling water unless Azu is running the Perish Trap set and that set is completely different to Primarina’s offensive sets. but yeah, I still agree on the drop.

Rotom-C B > B+ Agree:
I do believe that without Rotom-Wash, it is arguably the best Rotom form. USUM has been very kind to it lately with new threats such as Azumarill and getting access to Defog. It is a solid pivot and can provide a solid Volt Switch, ground immunity, and defogger in one package.

:Now for some noms of my own:

Talonflame B- > C+
Talonflame isn’t what it used to be. Azumarill and Mega-Mane can usually be a big problem and it has to keep itself fully healthy in order to make use of Gale Wings. B- isn’t good at representing it rn as it needs a lot of team support even with all the new defoggers in the meta.

Gigalith C- > UR
Why is this thing still ranked? It has gotten worse through time and time and I have been shocked it’s still ranked. It’s only niche over Hippowdon is the special defense boost it gets from Sand Stream but I don’t think that’s enough to warrant it a spot. It doesn’t even offer much considering of how much it loses in the meta especially with Azumarill, Serperior, and Breloom entering the tier.

Mega-Manectric A+ > S
Okay I know a lot of people might disagree on this one but this thing is incredibly hard to switch into unless you have Swampert, Hippowdon, or Alolan-Marowak, the rest get Volt-Switch’d. It also works as an great check to a handful of threats such as Scizor, Azumarill, and Cobalion. It brings this effect of having to bring in an bulky ground type not named Gliscor. I think it’s pivoting capability deserves an S ranking.

 

[Mysil]

Houndoom Mega B+ -> C or something

The opportunity cost of using up your Mega slot on houndoom is never worth it. Also it is objectively worse than Salazzle. Slower and worse typing. Ive been trying really hard to make doom work with a stallbreaker set with sunny day and NP or sunny day with heat rock provided by another member, but it sucks tbh. It never finds opportunities to set up twice even vs stall cause toxic, and when another teammate has sunny day its extremely obvious what youre trying to do. It was really good with ninetales, but without it I see no reason to ever use it over Salazzle.

Blastoise Mega B -> way lower

In a tier where Azu (or Primarina), Altaria and Amoongus are everywhere this pokemon will almost always be completely dead weight.

Jellicent B -> way lower

Grass types are very good right now and this mon just give them opportunities to come in and wreak havoc

Absol Mega B- -> lower

Its very bad. It does nothing to fairy types and is hard walled by aggron. Its also way to frail for its ability to be useful. As a trapper Muk or CB scizor are always preferred.

Rhyperior unranked -> C something

It is the only pokemon I can think of that counters Mega Manectric (blocks volt switch) and Mega Pidgeot in one slot. Both of those are huge threats to most teams. It also takes on all other flying types like crobat and talonflame. And since flying resists are hard to come by I think rhyperior deserves to be ranked. With ice punch it is not dead weight vs gliscor either like hippowdon is.

 

[Jade]

Houndoom Mega B+ -> C or something

The opportunity cost of using up your Mega slot on houndoom is never worth it. Also it is objectively worse than Salazzle. Slower and worse typing. Ive been trying really hard to make doom work with a stallbreaker set with sunny day and NP or sunny day with heat rock provided by another member, but it sucks tbh. It never finds opportunities to set up twice even vs stall cause toxic, and when another teammate has sunny day its extremely obvious what youre trying to do. It was really good with ninetales, but without it I see no reason to ever use it over Salazzle.

Whoa whoa whoa, what? B+ to C+ in one shift?

I strongly disagree with this nomination. I disagree with comparing Mega Houndoom to Salazzle at all. Unlike Salazzle, Mega Houndoom also has decent coverage, Sludge Bomb to hit Primarina and other Fairies, Taunt to annoy fat teams, or Flame Charge in conjunction with Nasty Plot. It also has better bulk than Salazzle, allowing it to set up easier. You probably arent using Mega Houndoom right, because if you use it correctly, it can be devastating. ¨It never finds opportunities to set up twice even vs stall cause toxic¨ what? Mega Houndoom actually 2HKOs Blissey at +4 after rocks:

+4 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 438-516 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And the aforementioned Taunt + NP annoys stall.

All and all, I completely disagree with this nomination. Mega Houndoom should maybe drop, but not all the way to C+. I think it should drop to B, if it does at all. As much as I like it and as much as it can be threatening, weakness to common priority Mach Punch and Aqua Jet hurts. It is also very frail, and weakness to rocks hurts it. A mixed set with Pursuit can be used to trap Lati, but its not as good as Nasty Plot imo.

 

[Mysil]

Whoa whoa whoa, what? B+ to C+ in one shift?

I strongly disagree with this nomination. I disagree with comparing Mega Houndoom to Salazzle at all. Unlike Salazzle, Mega Houndoom also has decent coverage, Sludge Bomb to hit Primarina and other Fairies, Taunt to annoy fat teams, or Flame Charge in conjunction with Nasty Plot. It also has better bulk than Salazzle, allowing it to set up easier. You probably arent using Mega Houndoom right, because if you use it correctly, it can be devastating. ¨It never finds opportunities to set up twice even vs stall cause toxic¨ what? Mega Houndoom actually 2HKOs Blissey at +4 after rocks:

+4 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 438-516 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And the aforementioned Taunt + NP annoys stall.

All and all, I completely disagree with this nomination. Mega Houndoom is fine the way it is, and it should stay B+.

You just die to earthquake from quagsire without Solar beam tho (Dark pulse isnt even a 2hko), wheras Salazzle has a good chance to ohko with hp grass after rocks. Also salazzle evades toxic by virtue of its typing which means it doesnt need taunt and can run coverage instead. Also what do you mean unlike salazzle houndoom has decent coverage? Do you think salazzles coverage is bad? They are both fast fire types with nasty plot but with different secondary stab. I think a comparison is fair

 

[Jade]

You just die to earthquake from quagsire without Solar beam tho (Dark pulse isnt even a 2hko), wheras Salazzle has a good chance to ohko with hp grass after rocks. Also salazzle evades toxic by virtue of its typing which means it doesnt need taunt and can run coverage instead. Also what do you mean unlike salazzle houndoom has decent coverage? Do you think salazzles coverage is bad? They are both fast fire types with nasty plot but with different secondary stab. I think a comparison is fair

Salazzle usually only runs Fire Blast/HP Grass/Sludge Wave. Doomer can run Sludge Bomb, Flame Charge, Taunt, or Solar Beam if you really love sun (though not that great) After chip, Quagsire goes down:

+4 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also, MDoom isnt just good on sun: it can fit on HO as well.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Salazzle usually only runs Fire Blast/HP Grass/Sludge Wave. Doomer can run Sludge Bomb, Flame Charge, Taunt, or Solar Beam if you really love sun (though not that great) After chip, Quagsire goes down:

+4 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also, MDoom isnt just good on sun: it can fit on HO as well.

I don't think Flame Charge, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, or Taunt in the 4th slot makes any difference when comparing the two (especially since Salazzle has access to Taunt and Encore too).

I'm inclined to agree with geeezer that M-Houndoom is too high for its rank right now. In all fairness, Fire Blast/Sludge Wave/HP Grass and Fire Blast/Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb all roughly hit the same things neutrally across the meta. Although Houndoom is marginally bulkier than Salazzle, Salazzle can switch into more things safely by virtue of its typing (mainly Grass and Fairy moves).

At +2, Salazzle pressures balance and more defensive team comps better because of a potential Acid Downpour and synergizes really well with a lot of the tier's top pivots for Offensive teams. This in no way means that Houndoom is bad; for certain team compositions, Houndoom's unique kit holds greater utility than Salazzle (i.e. Pursuit Trapping, priority, etc.). The best placement policy for Houndoom-Mega is for it to swap places with Salazzle, thus making Salazzle at B+ and Houndoom at B.

Some of the other Pokemon:
Beedrill: I think this Pokemon should drop now. As an offensive Pivot, it's in direct competition with Manectric. Manectric's utility with Intimidate pretty much outshines whatever Beedrill has to offer in raw power. The other point to note is that Beedrill's Speed tier means much less now because UU is packed with priority. Bullet Punches, Aqua Jets, or Ice Shards from some of the top Pokemon in the tier OHKO it after Rock, at the very least.

Stakataka: I personally see this Pokemon as a late-game sweeper with a Standalone Trick Room set that messes up Offense a lot. Even in practice, I think this Pokemon is fairly consistent in properly executing its job and snowballing into the late game by virtue of its bulk. Even CB Aqua Jet from Azumarill can't OHKO Stakataka. Breloom may be the only kink to this issue, but the addition of one Pokemon shouldn't be the sole reason for a drop in viability. Stakataka has many places where you can get a KO and beat the entire team because of Beast Boost. However, I think that the sole fault of this Pokemon is in its Rock/Steel typing, which makes it unreliable against a lot of things in the metagame (and also explains low usage in Tours).

Primarina: Primarina is still undoubtedly an A-rank Pokemon. It's biggest asset over Azumarill is its ability to also pressure the up-and-coming Amoonguss through Psychic, something Azumarill can't do. The uptick in stall does hurt it a bit, but I think it's still worthy of A-rank.

 

[Hogg]

I actually think MDoom has some significant advantages over Salazzle. While the lack of a poison immunity means MDoom is less reliable as a straight up stallbreaker, I find it significantly more useful against balanced and offensive teams, in particular because it pressures Latias and Gliscor in a way that Salazzle doesn't. Salazzle requires a Z crystal and a boost to beat either of these, and if it has Acid Downpour to break through Latias at +2, it finds itself revenged by Gliscor, while Inferno Overdrive sets that can break through Gliscor miss out on any possible chance to KO Latias even after a boost. Houndoom-Mega's typing and increased bulk and power helps it favorably in both of these matchups: +2 Fire Blast always OHKOs non-Careful Gliscor and has a 2/3 chance to OHKO Careful sets, while EQ does not OHKO in return, and +2 Dark Pulse blows Latias away while even Scarf sets need rocks down to revenge with Draco.

There are other instances where the bulk makes a big difference, too. For example, even CB Scizor will never 2HKO MDoom with Bullet Punch even after rocks (damage caps at 35%), so you can directly switch in if you know it's locked into BP, while Salazzle even has a chance to get 2HKO'd with no rocks. This also means that you can't use a Salazzle to revenge kill SD Scizor if rocks are down: at +2, you are guaranteed to drop to Bullet Punch. You also see this reflected in things like their abilities to break past bulky Waters such as Tentacruel and Empoleon, as MDoom's increased bulk allows it to stomach Scalds when healthy, which Salazzle cannot do.

Again, I'm not talking about edge scenarios: I'm talking about MDoom specifically being better against the biggest and most common threats in the meta.

Finally, Doom just has a much more reliable STAB. While their Fire Blasts are comparably strong (though again, matchups like Gliscor demonstrate why even that little bit of power difference can matter), Sludge Wave is just not anywhere near as spammable a move in UU as Dark Pulse. That means that Salazzle is forced to rely on a move with 85% accuracy as its main STAB, while in many matchups Doom can fall back on Dark Pulse.

So yeah, despite the fact that Salazzle is better at threatening common stall teams, I've been using MDoom a lot and find that outside of the stall matchup it's just straight up more reliable than Salazzle. I definitely wouldn't drop it lower than Salazzle, and think B+ is actually a fine place for it.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

Umbreon C+ -> B-

This guy is pretty slept on right now. Calm Umbreon eats most special attackers for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Foul play helps prevent Umbreon from becoming setup bait, and Synchronize is a sweet ability for dealing with other fat walls that want to abuse toxic like Hippowdon and Mantine. Wish and protect are also obviously great for stalling out trick room turns. Poison types pair very well with Umbreon as they cover the fighting/bug/fairy weakness and Umbreon deals with the psychics. Try it for yourself on the ladder and laugh when Specs Hydreigon fails to do 50% with draco meteor.

Blissey does the same thing with the special attackers, Seismic Toss does the same thing from the set up bait and although it lacks Synchronize, it does have Natural Cure which allows her to switch out with no need to worry about her poison or status as well. Toxic also allows her to poison the mons but she has to take a turn and get a hit or get poisoned prior. But she still has access to the reliable Soft-Boiled and Natural Cure so she doesn't have to worry as much. Blissey can also do the TR team stalling although she has to be weary of Stakataka and Alolan Marowak. Blissey still eats up Dreigon's moves as she can wall out all of its Draco Meteors unless if it runs Specs. Umbreon may also be able to eat up the hits as well but its a 2HKO on it and since most of the time its recovery is Wish, it won't make it. tl;dr I don't agree with the rise due to Blissey doing Umbreon's job better dispite her lack of physical defense.

 

[Et10/10du]

Breloom A -> A+ Disagree
Although it has a variety of offensive tools, its defensive presence is almost nonexistent. It's speed is pretty mediocre and therefore, relies on mach punch a lot. Most mons that resist mach punch and are faster than it either straight up ko it, or force a switch. Examples of this are latias, mega alt, and crobat. Also, due to it's frailness, it struggles to find opportunities to setup.

Amoonguss A -> A+ Agree
Unlike Breloom, Amoonguss finds alot more opportunities to use Spore due to its bulk. It has an amazing defensive typing along with an exceptional ability in Regenerator. It also checks top tier mons like Azumarill, Serperior to an extent, and Breloom.

Stakataka A -> A- Agree
Well, rip the Stakataka hype. In a meta where it's all about speed, using only one TR setter can really get you in predicaments.

Primarina A -> A- Agree
azumarill

Marowak-Alola B -> B- Agree
Admittedly, I really haven't explored Alolawak much since the drop. Recently, I tried it out on a Balanced Offense team and it was a decent mon. Although having to rely on alot of support, it's raw power is nothing to laugh at. But the fact that it gets worn down to the point where it only uses one or two attacks as well as having mediocre defenses really holds it back from being a factor in many of the games. Albeit being one of the most reliable checks to Mega-Mane and landing some burns here and there is way to generous for a mon that has unimpressive speed and HP, not to mention being weak to pursuit and many other top tier threats. Also, with the Stakataka hype dying, TR teams are alot less common as when it first dropped down to UU.

Florges B- -> C+
Sylveon is a far more superior choice of a cleric because of it's better physical bulk and pixilate to secure kills more effectively. There are some mons that Sylveon can switch into, for example Mega Shark, that Florges can't.

wall of calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 350-414 (99.1 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (93 BP) vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 362-428 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (62 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
204+ Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 386-456 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
204+ Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 192-226 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 218-260 (61.7 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 374-444 (105.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 326-386 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 173-204 (49 - 57.7%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 175-207 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 224 HP / 188 Def Florges: 369-437 (104.5 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 322-382 (81.7 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, there are some mons that Sylveon can switch into, for example Mega Shark, that Florges can't.


Mega Beedrill A- -> B+ Agree
With steel types like Mega Aggron and Scizor being slapped on every team, it certainly hasn't helped Mega Bee as they resist both stabs and are able to work around Drill Run. It faces stiff competition with Mega Mane which has intimidate. It also doesn't help that scarfers like Hydregon and Infernape are everywhere and they put Mega Beedrill's speed in the dirt. Although it stops Breloom from doing shit, priority is so omnipresent in the meta and it certainly doesn't contribute that Mega Beedrill has a dreadful 40 base defense.

Rotom-C B -> B+ Atree
With the departure of Rotom-W, Rotom-C finds itself in a good position. It is a good pivot with access to defog. It has Leaf Storm to secure kills versus water types like Azumarill. It's poor matchup versus stall can be patched up with support from other teammates. It's a fresh tool that can be used in voltturn and overall has decent utility.





Mamoswine -> *Special Rank*
Okay, so last time, users spammed Ambipom on the UU ladder. This time around, I don't think it will be any different. It deserves a special rank due to the fact that Aim's fans are thriving and spamming whatever "Mon" to the top mon that he is showcasing. I'm just hoping the tier shifts don't happen soon because I really enjoy using Mamoswine in the UU tier. It's versatile and has an amazing offensive typing with stabs that aren't resisted by any mon. It has superb and valuable priority in Ice Shard and boasts a huge 130 base attack.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

I don't really understand your calcs on the Florges nom; why are you calcing regular Beedrill poison jab, why are the gyro ball BPs so weird, what is Sylveon doing to a Mega Aggron or a Scizor or a Alomuk anyway? I agree that Sylveon generally outclasses Florges as a cleric but Florges is far more bulky on the special side as well as the fact that Florges has a definite niche in the fact that it gets Defog. Florges also gets immediate recovery in synthesis as well for an extra option. Sure - Florges isn't some great Mon, but it for sure has a viable niche that can keep it in B-.

I'm going to disagree with the Breloom point as well - part of the reason that makes Breloom so freaking dangerous is the mere THREAT of spore in tandem with its offensive presence. You can't send in your check to it immediately because Breloom can spore it and then Set up / switch out, or if you send something out for spore fodder and it clicks Swords Dance and you're pretty much left for dead at that point. Not to mention that Breloom needs very little support to be run effectively - all its counters are weak to alolan muk or rocks, both of which are pretty standard and splashable. The sheer unpredictability of Breloom plus the fact that it has a tendency to readily beat counters with setup and good sleep turns really points to it being in A+. You can't compare it to Amoonguss at all- they play completely different roles in the metagame.

 

[Jade]

Mega Absol to C+ or C

How I put this lightly: Mega Absol is absolutely trash. Not only does it suffer from one of the most severe cases of 4MSS, but its also terrible against most playstyles. Stall always carries an Unaware user that will wear it down, Bulky Offense commonly carries Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Hyper Offense has Pokemon that can just outspeed it, take a +2 Knock Off or Sucker, and revenge it, and is threatened by Mega Aggron and bulky Pokemon that can take hits on balance. Seriously, why would you even use Mega Absol over something else better? Its AOA set once again suffers from 4MSS, as it wants to run Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Play Rough, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Knock Off. Its SD set has to rely on Sucker Punch to kill faster mons, but the problem is Mega Absol is so frail it will hardly find any time to set up against a non-choice user. Overall, do not use Mega Absol, and please drop this thing to C+ or C. Its not good this gen, and never has been in this gen.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

View attachment 101989Mega Absol to C+ or CView attachment 101989

How I put this lightly: Mega Absol is absolutely trash. Not only does it suffer from one of the most severe cases of 4MSS, but its also terrible against most playstyles. Stall always carries an Unaware user that will wear it down, Bulky Offense commonly carries Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Hyper Offense has Pokemon that can just outspeed it, take a +2 Knock Off or Sucker, and revenge it, and is threatened by Mega Aggron and bulky Pokemon that can take hits on balance. Seriously, why would you even use Mega Absol over something else better? Its AOA set once again suffers from 4MSS, as it wants to run Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Play Rough, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Knock Off. Its SD set has to rely on Sucker Punch to kill faster mons, but the problem is Mega Absol is so frail it will hardly find any time to set up against a non-choice user. Overall, do not use Mega Absol, and please drop this thing to C+ or C. Its not good this gen, and never has been in this gen.

To be honest I kinda disagree with this nomination a lot, I don't think you've used Mega Absol enough to justify nomming this to drop. It's a mixed attacker with absolutely amazing coverage and the strongest Knock Off and Sucker Punch in the entire tier. Magic Bounce is an incredible ability and it gets Swords Dance to top it off. Sure - it's not a great Pokemon and it takes a lot of opportunity cost using up your mega, but by no means is it C material. Knock Off is a broken move and Absol hits hard as hell especially since Dark-type moves are a pretty spammable in the tier. It requires good prediction to use well but its definitely not a bad Pokemon.

Stall always carries an Unaware user that will wear it down

It's Knocking Off everything's Leftovers, making Quagsire and other stall Pokemon FAR easier to beat. Its not dead weight by any means vs stall, especially with Magic Bounce.

Hyper Offense has Pokemon that can just outspeed it, take a +2 Knock Off or Sucker, and revenge it

What Pokemon on Hyper Offense exactly are taking a +2 Knock Off or Sucker Punch? Also, what's revenging a base 115 speed Pokemon with STAB Sucker Punch? What Pokemon on Hyper Offense are outspeeding it in a relevant enough sense that they don't drop to Sucker? There's a few, but not many.

Seriously, why would you even use Mega Absol over something else better?

Because it has the second strongest Knock Off and Sucker Punch in the game. It also has the most powerful priority in the entire tier. Magic bounce is also one of the best abilities in the game. A physical attacker that can switch into a Will-o-Wisp or a Toxic? It also helps keep hazards off as the mere threat of it switching in and bouncing back hazards will have your opponents clicking attacks more often.

its AOA set once again suffers from 4MSS, as it wants to run Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Play Rough, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Knock Off.

Mega Absol has no need for Play Rough, idk where you're getting that from. It's also not a very good Pursuit trapper in all honesty, it's going to drop to a lot of stuff like a Latias Draco or Gengar Sludge Wave etc. It does on the other hand need to run Superpower to hit things like Cobalion. It doesn't really need to run Fire Blast to be honest. It gets all it needs from Knock Off / Superpower / Sucker Punch / Ice Beam.