UU Bold Suspect Nominations (Round 2)

[Fear The Pika]

I'm going to nominate Ambipom under Offensive characteristics. I don't have damage calculations, but Fake Out can effectively take away 1/3 of many pokemon's HP with Life Orb and Technician. It's faster than most UU Pokemon with it's 115 Base Speed so it can U-turn and run if there's anything that beats it since it'll just outspeed almost everything that isn't scarfed. Double Hit getting STAB, Technician and LO boosts is just wrong.

Yeah, my argument is kinda sucky, but it might get better later.

FearthePika: Rejected, yeah your argument is kind of sucky. I clearly don't have to tell you why when you already realize this yourself.

 

[macle]

Crobat fits the supportive characteristics perfectly. Crobat has the ability to stop Pokémon from setting up stealth rocks on the field with its quick taunts. This allows Stealth Rock weak Pokémon on his team to sweep easily like Moltres who has the bulk, speed, attack power to destroy teams but being weak to Stealth Rock prevents it from sweeping. Crobat is also able to set up rain effectively which is the most dangerous weather in UU. Swift Swimmers are able to sweep with ease under the rain with the help of Crobat. Crobat is able to continually switch in and set up rain which is why he is better at setting up rain then Electrode and Uxie, who have problems switching in. Crobat can easily stop walls from recovering hp and using status inducers then it can easily U-turn out to a teammate who can then boost its stats and then sweep. Crobat does this much better then other taunt users because it has the resistances that allow him to switch in and has access to roost to recover damage.

Macle: Really, Really, Really Borderline Accept. It was really brief, but you covered just barely enough for me to accept this. It could also be that it's 2:30 am and I forgot to read yours prior to this time unlike the others lol.

 

[franky]

I don't play much, but UU is my favorite tier and today I went 1500 which is a tough accomplishment for me in one day. After playing plenty of matches there is one that stuck out like a sore thumb.

Crobat - Support

This bat is mostly on everyone's nominations because its very obvious. It brings many things to the table and is downright handling a significant portion of the metagame.

"The Common Standard bat"

Crobat @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EV: 104 HP / 152 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

-Taunt
-Brave Bat
-U-Turn
-Roost

Crobat seen as a lead most of the time and it handles then nicely with the fastest Taunt in the UU Metagame. The thing that makes Crobat such an effective lead is that its not meant to be suicidal due to the fact it has a recovery move and it can keep a significant amount of pokemon in check mid-game. It can also be an excellent late-game sweeper.

Taunt: Self-explanitory and has enough bulk to take hits dished at it and still manage to use Taunt. The damage is easily replenished with Roost and 394 speed means it can recover health before getting damaged.

Brave Bat: A perfect move with 120 Base Power + STAB + Roost means Crobat can repeatedly use it and mend off HP loss. With the handy x4 resistance to the common type attacks such as Grass and Fighting, this guy can scare them off with a STAB Brave Bat. Brave Bat is an excellent move late-game also once its counters are removed. Brave Bat easily disposes fragile sweepers such as Espeon, Mismagius and Roserade.

U-Turn: A move usually performed early in-game to scout opponent's pokemon and can be used to switch out to an appropriate counter after coming in and focing out pokemon on a switch in to Fighting and Grass-type attacks.

Roost: Honestly, without Roost, Crobat is easily managable. Roost paired with 130 Base Speed is a tough task to take down. Paired with Taunt, you can't phaze it with Taunt or Whirlwind.

After explaining what these common move does to this metagame. It is quite obvious that its hard to manage this thing's standard set. Crobat also has an underrated defensive spread + handy resistances. Crobat is a force to be wreckened with.

Of course, Crobat is still managable by a couple of pokemon. Mainly Steel-types and Rock-types.

• Steelix
• Registeel
• Regirock
• Relicanth

Crobat's best counters in UU. 4 counters, and 1 uncommonly used which si Relicanth. Steelix is probably the best counter and can manage to use Gyro Ball. Stealth Rock is easily stopped by Taunt and with every pokemon, they need an appropriate partner. The thing that keeps Crobat a suspect is that these counters lack recovery move while Crobat has Roost to come back everytime and heal off the damage. These guys can be "bruised" the entire game with constant damage from other pokemon and has a hard time recovering. A nastyBat is still available and can really surprise these guys. Overall Crobat supports an entire team quite nicely while handling a significant portion of the metagame.

Notes/Conclusion:

• Handy x4 resistance to Grass (Shaymin and Roserade counter) and x4 resistance to Fighting (Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, Hariyama)
• 130 Base Speed + Roost is good. In general , the recovery move is Crobat's greatest asset imo. It is almost unbeatable without a strong Rock attack or a strong Psychic move.
• Toxic resistance
• Handle fragile sweepers with 130 base Speed
• Second fastest Taunt in the game means it can prevent set-ups the entire match (Rain Dance, Trick Room, etc.) when played correctly

franky: Rejected. While I appreciate the honesty that you don't play much UU, with an admission of that kind I can't truly accept this nomination in good faith.

 

[Friar]

I would like to nominate Crobat for BL.

Crobat was a suspect in the first nominations, and for good reason. An arguement can be for Crobat surpassing all three characteristics, but I feel the support characteristic is where the best arguement can be found.

For this analysis, we will be using the following set:

Crobat @ Leftovers
Jolly
168 HP/108 Sp. Def/232 Speed
Taunt
Brave Bird
Roost
U Turn

With this set, Crobat sets up a teammate for a sweep. By Taunting a wall, Crobat ensures a teammate can enter battle without concern. For instance, by Taunting an opposing Registeel, I ensure my Moltres can come in for free, because Registeel will not be able to use Thunderwave or Toxic, the only moves my Moltres would not like to come in on. By Taunting a Slowbro, Mismagius has gained easy set-up fodder. Mismagius is free to Calm Mind on Slowbro as Slowbro will not be able to Thunderwave Mismagius. After 3 or 4 Calm Minds, Taunt will have worn off, but it doesn't matter because Mismagius will be behind a Substitute and ready to sweep. One could argue that this supporting strategy could be defeated by switching out the wall that has been Taunted. However, Crobat ensures that his team is no worse off from that exchange. By switching, the team facing Crobat has taken entry hazard damage, and in UU there are many viable users of Spikes and Stealth Rock, so it will often be more than 20% damage. This weakens the opposing team so that a sweeper may break through later in the match. Not only that, but after Taunting, Crobat will U Turn to scout for a switch. If Registeel has switched out of Taunt to Azumarill, Crobat will know that because he used U Turn and will switch to Shaymin to keep his team in control of the match. In both instances, Crobat has easily kept his team in control of the match. It is not as if Crobat is only going to be able to do this maneuver a few times. Crobat has access to the fastest recovery move in UU. This gives Crobat the ability to stay alive throughout the match and come in repeatedly to give his team a guaranteed advantage.

This puts Crobat on the verge of surpassing the support characteristic. However, there is another supporting factor that Crobat brings to his team. This is "checking." Checking is the ability to threaten an opposing pokemon out, in other words, not allowing it to sweep Crobat's team. He is not sweeping, nor outstalling, so this does not qualify for the offensive or defensive characteristic. Instead, Crobat is supporting his team by not allowing the opponent to sweep Crobat's team. Here is a list of pokemon that Crobat checks. Again, I am not saying that Crobat counters these pokemon, I am saying they are not going to sweep as long as Crobat is alive.

Shaymin (#1 used in March)
Mismagius (#2)
Roserade (3)
Hitmontop (9)
Blaziken (11)
Ambipom (12)
Clefable (16)
Swellow (19)
Toxicroak (20)
Espeon (23)
Ludicolo sans rain (28)
Hariyama (31)
Feraligatr (32)
Venusaur (33)
Sceptile (37)
Hitmonlee (41)
Ninetales (45)
Primeape (47)
Scyther (48)
Houndoom (49)
Yanmega as well, not included in March statistics

Crobat checks 9 out of the top 20 pokemon, and 20 out of the top 50, plus Yanmega. These are the ones he can easily threaten after just Stealth Rock or a few turns of Life Orb recoil. Late game, after a lot of damage has built up, Crobat can KO most everything with its 120 base power STAB Brave Bird. Crobat ensures your team will not be swept or set up on, which makes Crobat the ultimate support pokemon, breaking past the Suppprt Characteristic.

Checking and the combination of Taunt and U Turn puts Crobat past the support characteristic in my opinion, and I hope I have defended that well.



Friar: Accepted.

 

[Morm]

Mismagius.

When I play against this thing, I am almost always left with one option, and that is outright attacking with whatever is in. It is imperative to get that sub down (should it be that set, but it is from my experience), otherwise the calm minding makes maggy a very real threat. This, at least in my experience, has made a pseudo- taunt effect whereby I am left with not option but to outright attack. This wouldn't be bad if she actually had to taunt to accomplish this, but she is so menacing that if given even a turn to set up she can run away with things rapidly. If I even suspect a missy is on a team, I will spam toxic/lava plume or whatever just to help bring her down should she switch in. I'd say, at least as far as my playing goes, that she's pretty rough to deal with. This isn't even considering the fact that honchkrow, who can bring her down with some basic prediction, may be banned. The only thing that would stop missy in her tracks is a taunt I suppose.

I'm not sure the formalities of the categorization for suspect test voting etc. I just simply wanted to relay my experiences with this UU monster in an attempt to at least test it. I'm not certain that my experience asserts any sort of actual brokenness, but she is most certainly one of the pokemon I am most concerned about when playing UU.


I suspect that this would put it in the Offensive characteristic, but it certainly does need a bit of set up. The thing is that the set up is relatively easy, so I'm not sure about specifics there.



Mormoopid: Rejected. The characteristic wasn't really tied into this and the discussion lacked overall implications of the greater metagame.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Moltres:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Moltres @ Leftovers [Bold]
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
-Flamethrower / Fire Blast
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Roost

Thanks to the fact that the great synergy of Toxic and Fire-type attacks, backed with a 125 base SpA, Moltres ruins its counters much too easily, greatly contributing to a sweep for Pokemon who share those counters. Toxic whittles away at the Pokemon's health, and if it is removed through Rest, the Pokemon in question has the potential to become much more ineffective as a counter thanks to the random factor of Sleep Talk and the fact that Sleep Talk takes up an otherwise possibly valuable moveslot.

The reason why this applies more to Moltres than any other Pokemon is that there are very few Pokemon that can switch in on Moltres without taking heavy, or moderate, irreparable damage from its STAB Fire-moves or being crippled by Toxic. Moltres can easily spam Toxic once it is granted a relatively safe entrance on Steelix's Stealth Rock or Roserade's Energy Ball, as about every Poison-immunity cannot safely switch in on its Flamethrower or Fire Blast. In fact, outside of using Rest, Muk, Miltank, Clefable are the only common exceptions in UU. (Chansey doesn't really work because it's basically dependent on guessing whether to Seismic Toss or Toxic on a Substitute or Roost.)

Stealth Rock may be a hinderance to Moltres, but Moltres really only needs one free switch-in to be able to cripple Milotic or Regirock with Toxic, to pave the way for a Honchkrow or Houndoom sweep. In addition, Hitmontop also happens to be the most commonly used Pokemon alongside Moltres, with 27.68% of teams with Moltres carrying it. 65.3% Hitmontops also ran Rapid Spin last month. These two facts suggest that Stealth Rock may not necessarily always be a "common battle condition" for a team using Moltres.

----

Honchkrow:

Honchkrow @ Life Orb [Adamant]
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Night Slash
-SuperPower
-Drill Peck
-Sucker Punch

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Dark (Night Slash/Sucker Punch) + Fighting (Superpower) is unresisted aside from Toxicroak. Throw in Drill Peck for perfect coverage and for bulky Fighting/Grass-types and you're set. This combined with 125 base Attack means that Honchkrow can easily take out massive chunks of HP from just about everything in UU.

Honchkrow doesn't necessarily beat Steelix or Regirock at full health, especially if they're switching into a Drill Peck, but it will tear a gaping hole in both with Superpower, enough to ripen them for the pickings of other Pokemon. Everything in UU will take 40 - 50+% damage from Honchkrow's assaults before being able to switch in and kill it. Max/Max Impish Steelix, a rare sight, takes 41.73% minimum from Night Slash + Superpower. Max/Max Impish Regirock takes 41.62% from Drill Peck + Super Power. Both are even factoring in Leftovers damage. Pokemon like Milotic who could normally outstall Honchkrow with recovery can easily be felled by a stray critical hit. The chance of a critical happening once in 3 attacks, the number of turns Milotic needs to switch in and Recover, is 57.8%.

The next time Registeel switches in, having taken a Drill Peck and SuperPower before bringing Honchkrow down with Ice Punch, it will not be able to survive a Swords Dance boosted Earthquake from Drapion. Crobat may have killed Honchkrow with Brave Bird, but a departing Sucker Punch means that Hitmontop will easily revenge kill it with Fake Out. Honchkrow's sheer power allows it to break walls effectively, easily opening up sweeps for other Pokemon, which is why I think it fulfills the Support Characteristic.



EUM: Accepted, would've like to to see a bit of elaboration on how they fit the clauses by looking back on them when you made specific points; but you got the job done so yeah.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

I am nominating Crobat for BL because of the support characteristic.

Crobat (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
- Roost
- U-turn

The standard Crobat set is very predictable, and yet it continues to retain high usage. Even as more and more countermeasures are taken against it, such as a large increase in rock and steel types, who even then are hard pressed to break Crobat, the standard set is still able to fulfill its purpose of setting up other sweepers.

The way Crobat is able to set up other sweepers is through the use of Taunt and U-turn. Taunt, backed by Crobat's 130 base speed, the second fastest in the UU tier, is able to prevent entry hazards, stat ups, and recovery moves from nearly every pokemon in UU, barring Electrode and possibly other Crobat. This, combined with the fact that the only pokemon able to consistently take Crobat's assaults are easily exploitable steel and rock type walls, allow for easy entry for many of UU's most threatening sweepers such as Blaziken and Shaymin.

With U-turn, Crobat further helps its team mates by repeatedly wearing down the opposing team while also preventing recovery, giving team mates a much easier time sweeping. The damage caused by entry hazards and U-turn can weaken enemy walls, while they are not able to accomplish much at all besides weather Crobat's attacks. These so called Crobat counters, such as Regirock, Registeel, Rhydon, or Kabutops, are forced to take damage from Crobat while not being able to accomplish the tasks they came in for such as setting up entry hazards, walling other pokemon, or significantly threatening the opponent's team. U-turn is also able to scout for switches, giving control of the match to the Crobat user no matter what.

Roost, it's excellent resistances to Bug/Fighting/Grass attacks, immunity to ground, and respectable defenses (able to take Ice Beams and some Stone Edges while Taunting and Roosting afterwards) gives Crobat the longevity it needs to do it's job consistently throughout the entire match. Also, Crobat's call for being put up for suspect once again is supplemented by the offensive characteristic. Crobat, through the use of only Brave Bird on the standard set, is able to take out a ridiculous amount of UU's most threatening sweepers, such as Blaziken, Shaymin, Mismagius, Swellow, Roserade, every single UU/NU fighter and Espeon in one shot. Crobat's sweeping abilities is helped by the fact that most of it's counters do not have recovery from residual damage and U-turn, so it is able to wear down the opposing team and pull of a sweep all by itself.

Shaymin



Peachfuzz: Crobat, Borderline Accepting. Would've liked to see a bit of elaboration on how each aspect fit into the characteristic.

 

[Caelum]

It appears 7 days have gone and past. We'll look these over sometime tomorrow and hopefully have results by Monday evening.

 

[Caelum]

Sorry for the delay. I looked them over, results are at the bottom. If it's listed as a "borderline rejection / accepted" I'll probably look over it tomorrow with a fresh-mind. I'll announce the suspects sometime in the next 2 days (you can figure it out yourself using the same method we used last time). I need to talk with Doug about some rating issues and RBG about some stuff. You should be able to get a good idea of which guys are gonna be suspects from the decisions I made here though, which is why I'm posting anyway.