VGC 17 Discussion Thread

[darkmaster1415]

This is my first attempt at a VGC Team. It's manly focussed on Electric Terrain and Rain. I hope this isn't to bad

Tapu Koko @ 'Lum Berry
Ability:Electric Surge
Evs: 4 HP/ 252 S Atk/ 252 S Def
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Protect
-Taunt (I am maybe considering replacing this)

One of the best Terrain settlers and has one of the best typings.

Pelipper @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Drizzle
Evs: 252 HP/ 132 Sp A/ 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Scald
-Hurricane
-Tailwind
-Wide Guard

The only good rain settler in the game and it's even better since it got a buff in this gen.

Garchomp @ Rockey Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Evs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Rock Slide
-Protect

It's a good counter to other electric Pokemon that try to take advantage of my terrain, flying types, and it's the best Dragon Pokemon in the Alola dex.

Celestella @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
Evs: 252 HP/ 252 Satk/ 4 Sdef
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Flash Cannon
-Air Slash
-Giga Drain
-Protect

From what I seen watching most VGC games it is a staple in most teams due to how much HP it has and It pairs well with Garchomp. On my team I am using it as a Offensive Tank.


Pheromosa @ Focus Slash
Ability: Beast Boost
Evs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
-Lunge
-High Jump Kick
-Ice Beam
-U Turn

The fastest Ultra Beast and is abit of a frail cannon and It's the sweeper of the team.

Raichu A @ Life Orb
Ability:Surge Surfer
Evs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Fake Out
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic
-Protect

I considered it a staple due to Surge being really good in Electric Terrain and Rain.

Thoughts or changes?

Alright after testing this team out I decided to make a few changes and replaced Raichu A with Persian A

Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
Evs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Rock Slide
-Protect

Persian A @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
Evs: 252 HP/ 4 Def/ 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Jolly Nature
-Fake Out
-Foul Play
-Parting Shot
-Dark Pulse

Do you guys think I should take out Pelipper?

 

[NECH]

Why don't you have Protect on Gyarados?

That's a very good point. Any other changes I should have?

 

[Maltrab]

That's a very good point. Any other changes I should have?

No clue, didn't look in depth. I just noticed that there's no protect on Gyarados

 

[Jash]

Just tried my team and it's really bad. It loses constantly to pretty much everything and I don't know what to do.

Togedemaru (M) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Spiky Shield
- Zing Zap
- Gyro Ball

Muk-Alola (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 164 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Protect

@ Todegemaru - I see what you're going for with this, but Gyro Ball is getting weaker with this build. Sure you're using it primarily for the Corkscrew Crush but that's a one-use tool that's really underwhelming. In addition, Lightningrod is a useful tool, but the SpA boost goes nowhere and if the opponent is Discharging (more common than I anticipated) you've got nothing to really give or get with that.

Consider the following:
Todegemaru @ Salac | Liechi Berry
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Sturdy
Jolly | Adamant
- Zing Zap
- Reversal
- Spiky Shield
- Fell Stinger | Fake Out

You bid a bit high with this, but with the prevalence of EQ in addition to Todegemaru not exactly being able to take a hit with its stats, this might be what you're looking for. I honored your EV spread since again, not exactly worthwhile to invest in defenses with it (especially Doubles). You can toggle between Fell Stinger or Fake Out depending on how often you find your opponents are in on low health, otherwise the disruption of Fake Out is still something to savor. Reversal over Gyro Ball because of Sturdy, in addition to the coverage it provides if dealing with Dugtrio. The Berries of course are 100% focused around Sturdy.

@ Muk - Very good, down-to-earth set. STAB, Taunt, Protect. But if you're going to run Gluttony, run with Aguav Berry (Sassy = Bitter). It will trigger at 50% health due to Gluttony and heal you by 50%.

 

[Project_Mars]

@ Muk - Very good, down-to-earth set. STAB, Taunt, Protect. But if you're going to run Gluttony, run with Aguav Berry (Sassy = Bitter). It will trigger at 50% health due to Gluttony and heal you by 50%.

Worth noting that unless it has changed since Sunday, Showdown has the incorrect heal value for the confusion berries, so testing with that is a little tricky. And why not Gunk Shot over Poison Jab, unless Gunk Shot doesn't pick up any important KOs that Jab misses it seems to be better.

Also Wolfe did do a video on Togedemaru that has some good advice, imo. I haven't tested anything from it yet though tbh. (And considering Z-Parting Shot is currently banned On cartridge due to triggering a bug, i'll be testing Togede over Alolan Persian now)

 

[CrimSonata]

How does Salamence stand in the current meta?

 

[Maltrab]

How does Salamence stand in the current meta?

I personally think it's underused but it's still good. Fast Special Attacking Dragon with Intimidate, Fire coverage, Water coverage if you need it, can go Scarf, Specs, Dragonium Z, Haban Berry, Yache Berry, Roselli Berry, great answer for Garchomp if it becomes super popular.

 

[darkmaster1415]

I personally think it's underused but it's still good. Fast Special Attacking Dragon with Intimidate, Fire coverage, Water coverage if you need it, can go Scarf, Specs, Dragonium Z, Haban Berry, Yache Berry, Roselli Berry, great answer for Garchomp if it becomes super popular.

That is true and one of the most popular Dragon Pokemon on a VGC Team besides Garchomp.

 

[NECH]

@ Todegemaru - I see what you're going for with this, but Gyro Ball is getting weaker with this build. Sure you're using it primarily for the Corkscrew Crush but that's a one-use tool that's really underwhelming. In addition, Lightningrod is a useful tool, but the SpA boost goes nowhere and if the opponent is Discharging (more common than I anticipated) you've got nothing to really give or get with that.

Consider the following:
Todegemaru @ Salac | Liechi Berry
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Sturdy
Jolly | Adamant
- Zing Zap
- Reversal
- Spiky Shield
- Fell Stinger | Fake Out

You bid a bit high with this, but with the prevalence of EQ in addition to Todegemaru not exactly being able to take a hit with its stats, this might be what you're looking for. I honored your EV spread since again, not exactly worthwhile to invest in defenses with it (especially Doubles). You can toggle between Fell Stinger or Fake Out depending on how often you find your opponents are in on low health, otherwise the disruption of Fake Out is still something to savor. Reversal over Gyro Ball because of Sturdy, in addition to the coverage it provides if dealing with Dugtrio. The Berries of course are 100% focused around Sturdy.

@ Muk - Very good, down-to-earth set. STAB, Taunt, Protect. But if you're going to run Gluttony, run with Aguav Berry (Sassy = Bitter). It will trigger at 50% health due to Gluttony and heal you by 50%.

@ Todegemaru - I see what you're going for with this, but Gyro Ball is getting weaker with this build. Sure you're using it primarily for the Corkscrew Crush but that's a one-use tool that's really underwhelming. In addition, Lightningrod is a useful tool, but the SpA boost goes nowhere and if the opponent is Discharging (more common than I anticipated) you've got nothing to really give or get with that.

Consider the following:
Todegemaru @ Salac | Liechi Berry
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Sturdy
Jolly | Adamant
- Zing Zap
- Reversal
- Spiky Shield
- Fell Stinger | Fake Out

You bid a bit high with this, but with the prevalence of EQ in addition to Todegemaru not exactly being able to take a hit with its stats, this might be what you're looking for. I honored your EV spread since again, not exactly worthwhile to invest in defenses with it (especially Doubles). You can toggle between Fell Stinger or Fake Out depending on how often you find your opponents are in on low health, otherwise the disruption of Fake Out is still something to savor. Reversal over Gyro Ball because of Sturdy, in addition to the coverage it provides if dealing with Dugtrio. The Berries of course are 100% focused around Sturdy.

@ Muk - Very good, down-to-earth set. STAB, Taunt, Protect. But if you're going to run Gluttony, run with Aguav Berry (Sassy = Bitter). It will trigger at 50% health due

@ Todegemaru - I see what you're going for with this, but Gyro Ball is getting weaker with this build. Sure you're using it primarily for the Corkscrew Crush but that's a one-use tool that's really underwhelming. In addition, Lightningrod is a useful tool, but the SpA boost goes nowhere and if the opponent is Discharging (more common than I anticipated) you've got nothing to really give or get with that.

Consider the following:
Todegemaru @ Salac | Liechi Berry
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Sturdy
Jolly | Adamant
- Zing Zap
- Reversal
- Spiky Shield
- Fell Stinger | Fake Out

You bid a bit high with this, but with the prevalence of EQ in addition to Todegemaru not exactly being able to take a hit with its stats, this might be what you're looking for. I honored your EV spread since again, not exactly worthwhile to invest in defenses with it (especially Doubles). You can toggle between Fell Stinger or Fake Out depending on how often you find your opponents are in on low health, otherwise the disruption of Fake Out is still something to savor. Reversal over Gyro Ball because of Sturdy, in addition to the coverage it provides if dealing with Dugtrio. The Berries of course are 100% focused around Sturdy.

@ Muk - Very good, down-to-earth set. STAB, Taunt, Protect. But if you're going to run Gluttony, run with Aguav Berry (Sassy = Bitter). It will trigger at 50% health due to Gluttony and heal you by 50%.

A problem is that both A, without lightning rod I might as well just use Marowak,and B, I have no out to Lele without corkscrew

 

[flargananddingle]

What nature is Muk running best with neutral speed? just got a POA one and was thinkin careful

 

[NECH]

Ugh maybe I should just use Tapu Lele and make a trick room team.

Unless There's a way to make a team of Tapu Fini and Nihilego work

 

[DaisukeLight]

Hey, guys! What do you think of Turtonator? I really like that poké. Do you think it could be usable?

 

[Jash]

A problem is that both A, without lightning rod I might as well just use Marowak,and B, I have no out to Lele without corkscrew

The Lightningrod argument is fair, but at that point Marowak would be out of its element.

@ Lele why do you care about that? Your only affected move is Fake Out and that's only if you target a ground-bound pokemon. Self-targeted moves and field moves like Tailwind wouldn't be blocked. As far as your comp goes, the terrain is just a new color scheme outside of Fake Out being blocked and Psychic attack type boosts.

Now granted, Lele would take two ZZs (three if HP invested). But with Jolly Tog you will always outspeed and unless your opponent doubles down on Tog, you'll wrap up that KO. If they do ddown on Tog, it's down to reads, but overall I think you have the right mentality.

 

[NECH]

The Lightningrod argument is fair, but at that point Marowak would be out of its element.

@ Lele why do you care about that? Your only affected move is Fake Out and that's only if you target a ground-bound pokemon. Self-targeted moves and field moves like Tailwind wouldn't be blocked. As far as your comp goes, the terrain is just a new color scheme outside of Fake Out being blocked and Psychic attack type boosts.

Now granted, Lele would take two ZZs (three if HP invested). But with Jolly Tog you will always outspeed and unless your opponent doubles down on Tog, you'll wrap up that KO. If they do ddown on Tog, it's down to reads, but overall I think you have the right mentality.

I mean in that case I just need to edit Tog's set...I wonder who I should give a z Crystal to though, if anyone

 

[Jash]

Hey, guys! What do you think of Turtonator? I really like that poké. Do you think it could be usable?

Turtonator doesn't run with my current team I'm testing, but I've been extremely curious because no site or post I've found has specified if Shell Trap works on only contact moves like I expected, or if it really is purely physical moves activate it. If it's any physical move, contact or not, I can see a Shuca Berry Shell Trap EQ punisher which removes Dugtrio from existence even with 0 defensive investment, even without Shuca it will survive. {252+ Atk Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 92-110 (68.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO}

If you were running Turtonator on a team with your mind set on a Tapu being in your team as well, Bulu isn't a bad idea, or even contrary to popular use if you're finding that Salamence, Garchomp, or somehow any other press Dragon to win monster is more popular than anticipated (especially special attackers), Fini can give you respite as Misty Terrain only cares about the targeted pokemon being ground-bound and that's a 50% decrease in damage {252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Turtonator: 151-179 (90.4 - 107.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO} which is more useful for vs. Garchomp, but if you banked on Turtonator doing something in that turn, that guarantees it'll live unless they ddown on it.

I personally think it's underused but it's still good. Fast Special Attacking Dragon with Intimidate, Fire coverage, Water coverage if you need it, can go Scarf, Specs, Dragonium Z, Haban Berry, Yache Berry, Roselli Berry, great answer for Garchomp if it becomes super popular.

Exactly, Salamence is another monster that doesn't mind lacking Mega one bit in this format, coupled with Intimidate it's going to sit pretty in the air. Even Koko won't OHKO it {252+ SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 108-128 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO} However, that air thing may work against it if it's paired with Lele since it won't get priority protection from Psychic Terrain, but regardless it will still constantly exude an aura of "I will murder at least one of your loved ones" like it did in D/P/Pt era VGC without careful focus.

I mean in that case I just need to edit Tog's set...I wonder who I should give a z Crystal to though, if anyone

Mind posting a WIP version of your team since a load of people have made suggestions? Depending on what suggestions you're inclined to take there's a few Z options that I feel you'd like to have available.

 

[CrimSonata]

Is a trickroom electric team possible? Also let say I wanna make a trick room team with also weather how many fast pokemon can i afford to have. I wanna somehow fit pheromosa and salamence into a trickroom team

 

[NECH]

Turtonator doesn't run with my current team I'm testing, but I've been extremely curious because no site or post I've found has specified if Shell Trap works on only contact moves like I expected, or if it really is purely physical moves activate it. If it's any physical move, contact or not, I can see a Shuca Berry Shell Trap EQ punisher which removes Dugtrio from existence even with 0 defensive investment, even without Shuca it will survive. {252+ Atk Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 92-110 (68.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO}

If you were running Turtonator on a team with your mind set on a Tapu being in your team as well, Bulu isn't a bad idea, or even contrary to popular use if you're finding that Salamence, Garchomp, or somehow any other press Dragon to win monster is more popular than anticipated (especially special attackers), Fini can give you respite as Misty Terrain only cares about the targeted pokemon being ground-bound and that's a 50% decrease in damage {252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Turtonator: 151-179 (90.4 - 107.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO} which is more useful for vs. Garchomp, but if you banked on Turtonator doing something in that turn, that guarantees it'll live unless they ddown on it.



Exactly, Salamence is another monster that doesn't mind lacking Mega one bit in this format, coupled with Intimidate it's going to sit pretty in the air. Even Koko won't OHKO it {252+ SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 108-128 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO} However, that air thing may work against it if it's paired with Lele since it won't get priority protection from Psychic Terrain, but regardless it will still constantly exude an aura of "I will murder at least one of your loved ones" like it did in D/P/Pt era VGC without careful focus.



Mind posting a WIP version of your team since a load of people have made suggestions? Depending on what suggestions you're inclined to take there's a few Z options that I feel you'd like to have available.

http://pastebin.com/wUgi9Mhy

Right here. I might end up dropping xurc and tog

 

[ElementOfSmash]

Definitely playing VGC this year. I actually had a lot of fun getting back into it last year! And giving Smogon another shot. I think it'll help a lot having a good community to be a part of.

I've been toying with the idea of a semi-TR team using Tflame, Mence, and Alolan Mwak. But...it wasn't very fruitful, and I'm wondering if maybe it would be more effective to just carry a slower mon for opposing TR setups?

 

[TotallyNotMikey]

Having some success with Alolan Ninetails, though curious if I should drop protect for encore, since it's mostly to support a Blizzard spamming Porygon-Z.

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect

 

[NECH]

I kind of want to toy with the idea of making a TR team featuring Tapu fini, since inner focus Oranguru wouldn't need Lele support and anti-status effects is great

 

[Jash]

http://pastebin.com/wUgi9Mhy

Right here. I might end up dropping xurc and tog

I don't see any staged changes when comparing it to your previous team post.

Dropping Xurkitree might not be a bad idea, but at the same time if you opt for Thunder over Tbolt you may get more bang for your buck, especially since currently having Pelipper on your team causing rain only benefits Gyarados Waterfall and weakens fire for those weak to it.

If you insisted on keeping things as they were, perhaps unless there was a specific calculation that Assault Vest kept Tapu Bulu alive, remove Horn Leech or Wood Hammer and put in Protect, then put in either Z-Psychium for Poison coverage (though won't help against Alolan Muk), or Z-Grassium for sheer murder potential.

Having some success with Alolan Ninetails, though curious if I should drop protect for encore, since it's mostly to support a Blizzard spamming Porygon-Z.

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect

This is almost identical to my own Ninetales, only my own runs Blizzard rather than Freeze Dry because water coverage already exists in my setup. I'd still keep Protect sheerly for doubles advantage as well as potential Z-move reduction since with enough experience, reading a ddown on Ninetales with Protect will definitely give you better payouts than Encore, unless you have encountered a lot of Encore use cases?

 

[NECH]

I don't see any staged changes when comparing it to your previous team post.

Dropping Xurkitree might not be a bad idea, but at the same time if you opt for Thunder over Tbolt you may get more bang for your buck, especially since currently having Pelipper on your team causing rain only benefits Gyarados Waterfall and weakens fire for those weak to it.

If you insisted on keeping things as they were, perhaps unless there was a specific calculation that Assault Vest kept Tapu Bulu alive, remove Horn Leech or Wood Hammer and put in Protect, then put in either Z-Psychium for Poison coverage (though won't help against Alolan Muk), or Z-Grassium for sheer murder potential.


This is almost identical to my own Ninetales, only my own runs Blizzard rather than Freeze Dry because water coverage already exists in my setup. I'd still keep Protect sheerly for doubles advantage as well as potential Z-move reduction since with enough experience, reading a ddown on Ninetales with Protect will definitely give you better payouts than Encore, unless you have encountered a lot of Encore use cases?

What I do wonder, is if perhaps I could drop Xurk, Pelipper, Gyara, switch Tog for Marowak, And add in Oranguru, Torkoal, and ??? And make it a trick room team instead?

 

[Proxied]

What are some good teammates for Mimikyu? I'd really like to find a good way to use it, but the thing's extremely frail and dies within two or three turns, one of which I need to use to set up.

 

[Kietharr]

Another picture compiled by analyst-anon, again, this is looking at the most used pokemon of the top 25 on the ladder (plus some niche picks and stuff that is common in lower brackets like Pheromosa). Apparently you just can't keep Gengar down. With Grassy Terrain nerfing EQ damage and Gengar being a solid Tapu killer he's still seeing use on successful teams. Nihilego also benefits from grassy and has good anti-tapu matchups. Fini is starting to see more use and Torkoal/Guru meme teams are falling off a bit. Decidueye is gone which should be no big surprise. It surprises me a bit to see Salamence in a 'niche' position in a meta thats seems to love intimidate users so much but I guess the large amount of fairy/steel types, rain and trick room really rain on his parade. All of the intimidates is a boon for Metagross though.

 

[CrimSonata]

how do i check the top teams on the ladder on showdown or battlespot, can someone give me a link?