Resource VGC 2019 Viability Rankings [Moon Series Update]

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
approved by blarajan .All ranks are based on usage, tournament performance, and community discussion.

Welcome all to a new and exciting year of Pokemon VGC! The 2019 season is underway and to go with it we will be creating once again a valuable resource for competitors alike to come to, partake in, and utilize for their competitive needs! This is an open discussion at all times and I will act as a bookkeeper to the VGC metagame and will compile any and all information I can track. I will be combining community suggestion, CP earnings, and online usage to determine ranking throughout the seasons. As of right now there will only be one Viability thread for all 3 seasons, changing as we shift to each new season. This is subject to change depending on demand but because tracking data for a metagame that has yet to exist within cartridge and tournament makes it as good as a guess. The changes made to this years format did not lend well to tracking data but I will do my best in providing the best VGC19 Tier list around!

To start this out we will not be using the +/- system and ranks will be purely in the letter and we will discuss all together those smaller changes and adjustments. If you'd like to make a suggestion or claim for a Pokemon moving rank, be sure to be thorough and show some calculations, if applicable. Sell to us why you believe it is deserving of rank. Credit to Maltrab, JashSmash, and Luckyboy123 for helping me to start this list!

UPDATED AS OF: March 10th, 2019




S-Rank


Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the VGC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
S
Incineroar
Xerneas

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the VGC metagame and can handle various field positions effectively or support multiple win conditions. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
A+

Groudon
Kyogre
Lunala
Yveltal
A

Amoonguss
Kartana
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele


A-

Crobat
Ludicolo
Smeargle
Stakataka
Tornadus
Tsareena
Venusaur




B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the VGC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. Their niches are often slightly smaller than those that are in A and S rank, which leads them to face some competition for a teamslot.
B+

Gengar
Landorus-T
Tapu Fini
Toxicroak

B

Heatran
Nihilego
Palkia
Raichu
Salazzle
Solgaleo
Talonflame
Whimsicott

B-

Bronzong
Clefairy
Ferrothorn
Hitmontop
Ho-Oh
Necrozma-Dusk Mane
Volcarona
Zygarde-Complete


C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the VGC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in VGC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
C+

Rayquaza
Scrafty
Shedinja
Suicune
Tapu Bulu
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Zapdos



C

Aegislash
Celesteela
Heliolisk
Lurantis
Mewtwo
Reshiram
Victreebel
Zekrom

C-

Araquanid
Dialga
Drifblim
Gothitelle
Kommo-o
Kyurem-W
Lugia
Naganadel
Ninetales
Pheromosa
D-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the VGC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.
D

Cherrim
Ditto
Giratina
Giratina-O
Kyurem-B
Necrozma-Dawn Wings
 
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Super excited for this season to get going! It seems like a lot of these ratings are based on previous gs cup seasons to some degree for a lot of reasons, so I'd like to provide some initial input based on meta changes and my personal experience laddering.

Rayquaza A -> C
If mega ray was available this would be a different story. But, as of right now, eliminating weather effects is nice yet not quite as important with only vanilla weather. A little too frail to really deal enough damage before getting knocked out.

Landorus-T A -> B
Not positive on this one, but crippling physical attackers doesn't seem as important in this meta with all of the big special attackers going around. Lando seems like more of a counter pick for dusk mane than anything else at the moment and isn't as splashable as in past seasons.

Smeargle A -> B/C
This one could change as well once Smeargle gets a more defined role or roles, but losing dark void was obviously very bad for our little painter.

Kartana B -> A
Both the sash and bulky assault vest variants of kartana seem really well positioned at the moment, being able to handle the weather duo quite well in addition to serving as a xerneas check if you can get in some damage before it wrecks you with geomancy.

Mewtwo B -> C
I had high hopes, but it just doesn't quite hit the calcs that it should and gets creamed by stuff like scarf kyogre, yveltal, and xerneas before it can do enough damage. Sounds weird, but maybe a bulkier psychic seed calm mind set could change this? Food for thought I guess.

Scrafty B -> C/D
Uuuuuh xerneas is a massive problem for our favorite young thug. Fighting coverage isn't quite as important in this meta, but it still serves a niche of being a solid dusk mane check with a strong knock off and intimidate.

Tapu Fini B -> C
I don't like it, but fini just gets way outclassed by kyogre which is looking to be one of the best mons in the format. Still good in some situations, but not looking so hot right now. Hoping someone can prove me wrong on this one.

Lugia C -> A/B
This one might be a little bold, but with multiscale being available from the Japanese event, seed lugia can tank just about anything this format can throw at it and can provide a few different speed control options while stalling out a lot of different things with toxic or going for a calm mind set. I've had a lot of success with this on ladder and I'd highly recommend it.

While these are the main points I wanted to mention, there are probably a few more changes that could be made. But, as of right now, there isn't really any data or results to go off of, so I'm mostly just using intuition and what I've experienced while laddering and discussing with Shivershaft and other friends. I could be completely wrong on a lot of these predictions and I can certainly be swayed on all of them with some good evidence.
 
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Mewtwo can potentially do some good work if psychic terrain is active. After all it boosts mewtwo’s pyshic.
Lugia is very powerful with seed, but that is a Japanese event so a lot of people don’t have access to multiscale lugia. I might be mistaken on that though...
 
Lugia is very powerful with seed, but that is a Japanese event so a lot of people don’t have access to multiscale lugia. I might be mistaken on that though...
Hey, just popping in to say that people do have access to that as it is a code event for the 21st movie, with them expiring a month from now. On top of that, that Lugia has access to Hurricane, but I'm not sure how that will fare in VGC.
 

Luckyboy123

Ironically Named
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey man, really happy that the thread got put up. Just wanted to makes a few more suggestions to add onto Jash’s.

Stakataka A->B
This pile of bricks may be a great trick room setter though it lacks the ability to take hits from the most notable special attackers bar xerneas which it notably deals with quite well, though dusk mane necrozma is quite good at the niche that stakataka fills, though it takes a restricted spot and it is somewhat more threatened by Incineroar. It’s premier item, focus sash, is also threatened by the multitude of fake out users like Incineroar and Hitmontop that also threaten a follow up like low kick or close combat. In addition the slight rise in usage of moves like low kick and don’t help it either.

Tyranitar B -> C
Tyranitar is in an awkward spot in this meta. It finds itself pushed around by the legendaries who often OHKO it such as xerneas, dusk mane necrozma or groudon and kyogre, both of which can remove sandstorm. It is a way to take out Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Girintina and Lunala. Though several of these mons can threaten a KO on Tyranitar should they have the right coverage or a burn in the case of Ho-Oh. The Tapus, rise in usage of grass types notably kartana, ferrothorn, tsareena and ludicolo and rise of weight related moves (i.e. grass knot and low kick) also do not help Tyranitar’s case.

As more information comes in from tournament results and the meta settles I’m sure we’ll see more shifts. The meta is still in flux and I’m sure that we’ll see some more standardized teams pop up.

Also on a side note can we mention the psyduck meme from the VGC discord here in the meme tier, I think it would be a great (albeit a tad early as primal aren’t out) addition. May I also mention that Lilligant is currently being represented by a Hippoptas sprite.
 
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Rayquaza A->C
Agree, this thing's typing is pretty atrocious atm and underspeeding Xerneas is really unfortunate. It can't even beat rain effectively which is what it looks to want to do bc it lacks the power to deal with ludicolo/scarf kyogre before it drops to an ice beam. As of right now, I just don't see any reason to use this mon beyond niche hyperoffense.

Landorus-T A->B
Agree, this thing doesn't have much of an impact on the game beyond beating Incineroar and doing decent work against Groudon, Necrozma-DM and Koko. It has enough utility against common mons that its justifiable running but not so much for A rank.

Scrafty B->D
Agree, imo there's no reason to play Scrafty, especially in a Xerneas meta, when Incineroar and Hitmontop are both far superior options.

Mewtwo B->C
Agree, its really frail and it just doesn't have the raw power it needs to give it a use over other more powerful and bulkier restricteds like kyogre and xerneas. The only real reason to play it is alongside Tapu Lele, and there's better Lele partners, ie Groudon or Lunala. Mewtwo offers next to nothing in terms of type coverage with Lele and is overall very underwhelming.

Lunala B->A
I've been super impressed by this thing, It's got so much versatility in the sets it can run and the roles it performs, I've been really impressed by the Bulu/Incineroar/Seed CM Lunala core where Lunala can set up calm minds super easily with roost+shadow shield and sweep at +1 or +2, but Lunala also functions amazingly with Tapu Lele as Wide Guard/Tailwind support and hard hitting Psyshocks, it works as a Trick Room setter, it stops Necrozma-DM in its tracks, immunity to fake out is huge, and shadow shield makes this thing bulky as hell, the CM variant does great work against Xerneas when played well.

Tapu Koko A->B
In every single game I've played with or against Tapu Koko, its done 1 thing, and that's die very quickly. No Z moves means this thing is already lacking in power, and the things its trying to beat, Yveltal, Kyogre, Ho-oh, and Lugia, are all bulky enough to shrug off anything Koko can throw at them. It still does good work as a support pokemon (a lot like crobat in vgc16) but it has enough flaws that I think it should get dropped to B.
 
Rayquaza A->C
Agree, this thing's typing is pretty atrocious atm and underspeeding Xerneas is really unfortunate. It can't even beat rain effectively which is what it looks to want to do bc it lacks the power to deal with ludicolo/scarf kyogre before it drops to an ice beam. As of right now, I just don't see any reason to use this mon beyond niche hyperoffense.

Landorus-T A->B
Agree, this thing doesn't have much of an impact on the game beyond beating Incineroar and doing decent work against Groudon, Necrozma-DM and Koko. It has enough utility against common mons that its justifiable running but not so much for A rank.

Scrafty B->D
Agree, imo there's no reason to play Scrafty, especially in a Xerneas meta, when Incineroar and Hitmontop are both far superior options.

Mewtwo B->C
Agree, its really frail and it just doesn't have the raw power it needs to give it a use over other more powerful and bulkier restricteds like kyogre and xerneas. The only real reason to play it is alongside Tapu Lele, and there's better Lele partners, ie Groudon or Lunala. Mewtwo offers next to nothing in terms of type coverage with Lele and is overall very underwhelming.

Lunala B->A
I've been super impressed by this thing, It's got so much versatility in the sets it can run and the roles it performs, I've been really impressed by the Bulu/Incineroar/Seed CM Lunala core where Lunala can set up calm minds super easily with roost+shadow shield and sweep at +1 or +2, but Lunala also functions amazingly with Tapu Lele as Wide Guard/Tailwind support and hard hitting Psyshocks, it works as a Trick Room setter, it stops Necrozma-DM in its tracks, immunity to fake out is huge, and shadow shield makes this thing bulky as hell, the CM variant does great work against Xerneas when played well.

Tapu Koko A->B
In every single game I've played with or against Tapu Koko, its done 1 thing, and that's die very quickly. No Z moves means this thing is already lacking in power, and the things its trying to beat, Yveltal, Kyogre, Ho-oh, and Lugia, are all bulky enough to shrug off anything Koko can throw at them. It still does good work as a support pokemon (a lot like crobat in vgc16) but it has enough flaws that I think it should get dropped to B.
I use a tapu Koko in a sun team, it’s scarfed and does a lot of damage to kyogre, but I see where you are going with this...
 
Even taking Multiscale into account for Lugia, I don't think it should be ranked higher. Lugia excels at setting up Tailwind with its gigantic bulk, but it becomes a gigantic sitting duck until Tailwind wears off so it can set up again. I suppose the Calm Mind set could work, but I'm skeptical about it and that's something that should be seen in practice.

Anyway, here is my nom.

Zygarde-Complete B >C/D
It's prone to being obliterated by Fairy- and Ice-type move, which is especially bad in a format filled with Xerneas, Kyogre, Lunala, and Tapu Lele, making its near perfect coverage from Thousand Arrows fairly useless, especially without any Dragon Dance boosts. I personally think it should be ranked D, but C-rank could work for the time being.

Thundurus (Incarnate) C > UR
The prelevance of Tapu Lele and Tapu Fini give Thundurus a harder time as they block any Prankster-boosted Thunder Wave. Even without them blocking its path, Thunder Wave having 90% accuracy means it will miss at crucial moments, making it unappealing in comparison to Tailwind (which it doesn't even get). And even pushing Thunder Wave aside, Thundurus' offensive capability isn't all that impressive at all outside of dealing Super effective damage to Kyogre or Yveltal.

Dialga B > C/D
Other Steel-types do the job of taking down Fairy-type better since being part Dragon-type is a huge drawback as Dialga doesn't resist Fairy-type moves.

Giratina (Both) B > D
Breaking protection with Shadow Force sounds nice on concept, but it takes 2 turns for the attack to execute, which is especially bad without Ghostium Z to deal consistent damage. Defensive tactic don't work in Doubles, and going for an offensive route is weird. Not only is its offensive is merely alright, its physical movepool is horrid, forcing it to go either mixed or special. Just stick with Lunala.

Tsareena C > UR
Why is Tsareena even ranked when you got Tapu Lele that also block priority move with Psychic Surge? I suppose Queenly Majestic extends to any ally that's Flying-type or has Levitate, but it's generally less useful other than that since Tapu Lele provide more offensive utility.
 
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Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
I don't believe Hitmontop is that high up.
I think it's around B/C
It is weak to both fairy and psychic, which are insanely common in this format.

I don't believe Tsareena should be ranked. Even if ranked, it should be D.
I don't see any merit of using Tsareena when you can use Tapu Lele.

If Tsareena is to be ranked, then Jynx should be ranked.
Jynx is immune to water, and does a decent amount to Kyogre with grass knot.
Jynx also resists psychic, which is really common in this format due to psychic terrain.
Access to skill swap to reset weather.
Access to fake out.
Damage calcs here
252+ SpA Jynx Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 104-124 (59.4 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 79-94 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Dry Skin recovery

(in psychic terrain) 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 86-101 (61.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(in psychic terrain) 252+ SpA Jynx Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko in Psychic Terrain: 148-175 (101.3 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx in Psychic Terrain: 78-94 (55.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Is the ranking solely for the Sun season right now? Anyway, here are my thoughts:<br />
<br />
Tapu Fini: Should go down to C. Xerneas and Kyogre do everything that Fini could do but better, setting up and attacking with spread attacks, such as Dazzling Gleam, Origin Pulse, Calm Mind, Geomancy, and Water Spout.

Dialga: B-Rank is fine for it. It’s one of the few settlers who aren’t weak to Dark and Ghost, and has a more powerful STAB combination than Necrozma-DM, not to mention resisting water and Electric and only taking neutral to ice is a huge advantage against Kyogre for a TR setter.

Rayquaza: A-Rank is too generous. It sits at an awkward speed tier, and not having Dragon Ascent really hurts it. Air lock isn’t as useful right now. B or C rank.

Palkia: I feel C is to low for it compared to Vensaur and Tsareena. One of the best offensive checks for Kyogre, and 100 Base Spd is amazing for this format. Can be a TR setter. Also, like Dialga, isn’t weak too Dark and Ghost types and can check Kyogre which is useful for a TR setter.

Lunala: Should go to A. Amazingly versatile. TR, Tailwind, Will o Wisp, Roost, Calm Mind, and wide guard to name a few. Not to mention Shadow Shield, which makes really Yveltal that can reliably Ohko it.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
Is the ranking solely for the Sun season right now? Anyway, here are my thoughts:<br />
<br />
Tapu Fini: Should go down to C. Xerneas and Kyogre do everything that Fini could do but better, setting up and attacking with spread attacks, such as Dazzling Gleam, Origin Pulse, Calm Mind, Geomancy, and Water Spout.

Dialga: B-Rank is fine for it. It’s one of the few settlers who aren’t weak to Dark and Ghost, and has a more powerful STAB combination than Necrozma-DM, not to mention resisting water and Electric and only taking neutral to ice is a huge advantage against Kyogre for a TR setter.

Rayquaza: A-Rank is too generous. It sits at an awkward speed tier, and not having Dragon Ascent really hurts it. Air lock isn’t as useful right now. B or C rank.

Palkia: I feel C is to low for it compared to Vensaur and Tsareena. One of the best offensive checks for Kyogre, and 100 Base Spd is amazing for this format. Can be a TR setter. Also, like Dialga, isn’t weak too Dark and Ghost types and can check Kyogre which is useful for a TR setter.

Lunala: Should go to A. Amazingly versatile. TR, Tailwind, Will o Wisp, Roost, Calm Mind, and wide guard to name a few. Not to mention Shadow Shield, which makes really Yveltal that can reliably Ohko it.
I think Tapu Fini's main usage is to disrupt the terrain.
Since Tapu Fini is slower than Lele and Koko, Fini grabs the terrain.

Lunala <-- I agree with Lunala going to A. It even has wide guard.
 

Darkmalice

Level 3
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I overall like the initial list.

I think Kyogre should be S rank. That appears to be the most common legendary, and at least for me, it always put in work with optimal play. It's also very difficult to check with Water/Ice/Electric coverage and its huge power.

Unsure about anything else going in S rank atm. The next best 3 legendaries imo are (in no particular order) Necrozma-DM, Xerneas and Yveltal. They are all also very good, but Necrozma-DM Xerneas can only put in little work more often, whilst Yveltal is consistently useful but is less likely to dominate games.

I support Ludicolo in A rank. Yes it's dependent on Kyogre, but it's also fairly consistent when used together. Fast Fake Out is great in this metagame, and it has good power in rain whilst being able to 2HKO much of the metagme and fairing well against Kyogre.

Going to comment on the other suggestions

Super excited for this season to get going! It seems like a lot of these ratings are based on previous gs cup seasons to some degree for a lot of reasons, so I'd like to provide some initial input based on meta changes and my personal experience laddering.

Rayquaza A -> C
If mega ray was available this would be a different story. But, as of right now, eliminating weather effects is nice yet not quite as important with only vanilla weather. A little too frail to really deal enough damage before getting knocked out.
I think Rayquaza should drop but unsure to B/C. Haven't really seen it being used.

Landorus-T A -> B
Not positive on this one, but crippling physical attackers doesn't seem as important in this meta with all of the big special attackers going around. Lando seems like more of a counter pick for dusk mane than anything else at the moment and isn't as splashable as in past seasons.
I agree with the rank drop, but disagree with your reasoning. Intimidate is still useful and there are big physical attackers like Necrozma-DM. Rather it fairs poorly against many of the top attackers like Kyogre, Xerneas, and Yveltal. It can do well against Necrozma-DM if it isn't holding Weakness Policy (+1 Adamant Necrozma OHKOes 4 HP / 0 Def Lando-T). On the other hand, Incineroar has a better match-up against the physical attackers and the common Pokemon, even Kyogre (it's got Fake Out).

Smeargle A -> B/C
This one could change as well once Smeargle gets a more defined role or roles, but losing dark void was obviously very bad for our little painter.
Not C, maybe B. It's definitely worse than before, but it's still good Xerneas support.

Kartana B -> A
Both the sash and bulky assault vest variants of kartana seem really well positioned at the moment, being able to handle the weather duo quite well in addition to serving as a xerneas check if you can get in some damage before it wrecks you with geomancy.
Abstain. I find it's shaky at checking Xern and Kyogr. Kartana cannot OHKO Xern who will always 2HKO after Geo with Dazzling Gleam and Moonblast irrespective of EV spread and item. +2 Moonblast will OHKO without AV so it can't afford to take a Fake Out which is often paired with it. Scarf Kyogre also OHKOes with Water Spout besides bulky AV spreads that cannot OHKO Kyogre.

Mewtwo B -> C
I had high hopes, but it just doesn't quite hit the calcs that it should and gets creamed by stuff like scarf kyogre, yveltal, and xerneas before it can do enough damage. Sounds weird, but maybe a bulkier psychic seed calm mind set could change this? Food for thought I guess.
Mixed between drop or not.

Scrafty B -> C/D
Uuuuuh xerneas is a massive problem for our favorite young thug. Fighting coverage isn't quite as important in this meta, but it still serves a niche of being a solid dusk mane check with a strong knock off and intimidate.
I would not use this over Incineroar. The only notable match-up where Scrafy is better that I can think of is against Groudon, and even that boosts Incineroar's STAB. I could see D rank but haven't really seen this, would like to hear from someone who's used Scrafty in terms of C vs D.

Tapu Fini B -> C
I don't like it, but fini just gets way outclassed by kyogre which is looking to be one of the best mons in the format. Still good in some situations, but not looking so hot right now. Hoping someone can prove me wrong on this one.
Fini should be used on teams that don't use Kyogre. Being outclassed by a legendary isn't enough for a drop with the GS 2 Pokemon rule.

Lugia C -> A/B
This one might be a little bold, but with multiscale being available from the Japanese event, seed lugia can tank just about anything this format can throw at it and can provide a few different speed control options while stalling out a lot of different things with toxic or going for a calm mind set. I've had a lot of success with this on ladder and I'd highly recommend it.
Have seen Lugia, I wouldn't oppose to a rise to B rank. Haven't seen it being used well enough for A, but I haven't seen it much.

While these are the main points I wanted to mention, there are probably a few more changes that could be made. But, as of right now, there isn't really any data or results to go off of, so I'm mostly just using intuition and what I've experienced while laddering and discussing with Shivershaft and other friends. I could be completely wrong on a lot of these predictions and I can certainly be swayed on all of them with some good evidence.
Hey man, really happy that the thread got put up. Just wanted to makes a few more suggestions to add onto Jash’s.

Stakataka A->B
This pile of bricks may be a great trick room setter though it lacks the ability to take hits from the most notable special attackers bar xerneas which it notably deals with quite well, though dusk mane necrozma is quite good at the niche that stakataka fills, though it takes a restricted spot and it is somewhat more threatened by Incineroar. It’s premier item, focus sash, is also threatened by the multitude of fake out users like Incineroar and Hitmontop that also threaten a follow up like low kick or close combat. In addition the slight rise in usage of moves like low kick and don’t help it either.
Abstain
Tyranitar B -> C
Tyranitar is in an awkward spot in this meta. It finds itself pushed around by the legendaries who often OHKO it such as xerneas, dusk mane necrozma or groudon and kyogre, both of which can remove sandstorm. It is a way to take out Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Girintina and Lunala. Though several of these mons can threaten a KO on Tyranitar should they have the right coverage or a burn in the case of Ho-Oh. The Tapus, rise in usage of grass types notably kartana, ferrothorn, tsareena and ludicolo and rise of weight related moves (i.e. grass knot and low kick) also do not help Tyranitar’s case.
Abstain
As more information comes in from tournament results and the meta settles I’m sure we’ll see more shifts. The meta is still in flux and I’m sure that we’ll see some more standardized teams pop up.

Also on a side note can we mention the psyduck meme from the VGC discord here in the meme tier, I think it would be a great (albeit a tad early as primal aren’t out) addition. May I also mention that Lilligant is currently being represented by a Hippoptas sprite.

Lunala B->A
I've been super impressed by this thing, It's got so much versatility in the sets it can run and the roles it performs, I've been really impressed by the Bulu/Incineroar/Seed CM Lunala core where Lunala can set up calm minds super easily with roost+shadow shield and sweep at +1 or +2, but Lunala also functions amazingly with Tapu Lele as Wide Guard/Tailwind support and hard hitting Psyshocks, it works as a Trick Room setter, it stops Necrozma-DM in its tracks, immunity to fake out is huge, and shadow shield makes this thing bulky as hell, the CM variant does great work against Xerneas when played well.
Abstain


Tapu Koko A->B
In every single game I've played with or against Tapu Koko, its done 1 thing, and that's die very quickly. No Z moves means this thing is already lacking in power, and the things its trying to beat, Yveltal, Kyogre, Ho-oh, and Lugia, are all bulky enough to shrug off anything Koko can throw at them. It still does good work as a support pokemon (a lot like crobat in vgc16) but it has enough flaws that I think it should get dropped to B.
I recommend Focus Sash in this metagame. You're right it's frail. You do underestimate its power though. Tapu Koko OHKOes your standard 4 HP Kyogre with Thunder or LO Thunderbolt. Same deal for 252 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal. AV Yveltal will always survive. I think it should be A
Even taking Multiscale into account for Lugia, I don't think it should be ranked higher. Lugia excels at setting up Tailwind with its gigantic bulk, but it becomes a gigantic sitting duck until Tailwind wears off so it can set up again. I suppose the Calm Mind set could work, but I'm skeptical about it and that's something that should be seen in practice.

Anyway, here is my nom.

Zygarde-Complete B >C/D
It's prone to being obliterated by Fairy- and Ice-type move, which is especially bad in a format filled with Xerneas, Kyogre, Lunala, and Tapu Lele, making its near perfect coverage from Thousand Arrows fairly useless, especially without any Dragon Dance boosts. I personally think it should be ranked D, but C-rank could work for the time being.

Thundurus (Incarnate) C > UR
The prelevance of Tapu Lele and Tapu Fini give Thundurus a harder time as they block any Prankster-boosted Thunder Wave. Even without them blocking its path, Thunder Wave having 90% accuracy means it will miss at crucial moments, making it unappealing in comparison to Tailwind (which it doesn't even get). And even pushing Thunder Wave aside, Thundurus' offensive capability isn't all that impressive at all outside of dealing Super effective damage to Kyogre or Yveltal.

Dialga B > C/D
Other Steel-types do the job of taking down Fairy-type better since being part Dragon-type is a huge drawback as Dialga doesn't resist Fairy-type moves.

Giratina (Both) B > D
Breaking protection with Shadow Force sounds nice on concept, but it takes 2 turns for the attack to execute, which is especially bad without Ghostium Z to deal consistent damage. Defensive tactic don't work in Doubles, and going for an offensive route is weird. Not only is its offensive is merely alright, its physical movepool is horrid, forcing it to go either mixed or special. Just stick with Lunala.

Tsareena C > UR
Why is Tsareena even ranked when you got Tapu Lele that also block priority move with Psychic Surge? I suppose Queenly Majestic extends to any ally that's Flying-type or has Levitate, but it's generally less useful other than that since Tapu Lele provide more offensive utility.
Tsareena deserves to remain ranked. Terrain wars are a thing, Feint is useful support, and Grass-type is good in this metagame thanks to Kyogre and avoiding sleep from Amoonguss or Smeargle.

Zygarde I think is C for the time being as it fairs poorly against many top dogs whilst it needs time to get going.

Abstain rest
I don't believe Hitmontop is that high up.
I think it's around B/C
It is weak to both fairy and psychic, which are insanely common in this format.

I don't believe Tsareena should be ranked. Even if ranked, it should be D.
I don't see any merit of using Tsareena when you can use Tapu Lele.

If Tsareena is to be ranked, then Jynx should be ranked.
Jynx is immune to water, and does a decent amount to Kyogre with grass knot.
Jynx also resists psychic, which is really common in this format due to psychic terrain.
Access to skill swap to reset weather.
Access to fake out.
Damage calcs here
252+ SpA Jynx Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 104-124 (59.4 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 79-94 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Dry Skin recovery

(in psychic terrain) 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 86-101 (61.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(in psychic terrain) 252+ SpA Jynx Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko in Psychic Terrain: 148-175 (101.3 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx in Psychic Terrain: 78-94 (55.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Abstain to Jynx.

I don't think Hitmontop is A rank currently mono-Fighting type and coverage is terrible, and its support moves are fairly predictable (Fake Out and Wide Guard are standard to the point that Wide Guard is easily maneoured around since Hitmontop can't do much more after staying on the field after Fake Out. Also it's not ideal having your Intimidate user OHKOed by Necrozma-DM. Then watch out for Feint or Helping Hand in the fourth slot) I. B seems decent though as it does has use support-wise though.
 
I believe Abomasnow should be ranked.
I think it's a very good Kyogre counter.
Grabs the weather since it's slower than Kyogre.
Resists water and electric moves.
STAB grass moves.
Blizzard deals with a decent amount of things, such as Landorus, Thundurus, Yveltal, Zapdos.
I second that. It’s typing is useful against Groudon and Kyogre and can hit the metagame surprisingly hard. Snow Warning is useful for breaking sashes, and has Ice Shard for priority. I think B rank is appropriate.
 
I think that you're all sleeping on Tsareena

Tsareena + Scarf Ogre is a really strong core, only weak to Ludicolo and faster scarfers.

Tsareena's ability is really great for Kyogre, as it makes Kyogre immune to Fake Out and other priority moves (such as Yveltal Sucker Punch) so it can spam Water Spout almost freely. Tsareena has access to Feint and Helping Hand, so it's really great for Water Spout (Feint breaking Wide Guard and HH making Water Spout stupidly strong).

Tsareena's offensive capabilities are nothing to laugh about: Power Whip KOes other Kyogre and does an immense amount of damage to Groudon; HJK is really great vs Ferrothorn; and Knock Off is a really good support move for the rest of the team.

Also, its ability is better than Lele's because it can't be counter-terrained.


Talking about other Pokemon, I think Incineroar might be good enough for making the S-cut. It's typing is great against Lunala and Suncrozma (which gets intimidated), it's also good vs Amoonguss, Ferrothorn and other steel mons, so it's the perfect teammate for both Kyogre and Xerneas.

Kyogre, Yveltal, Suncrozma and Xerneas are also a few mons that could be considered for S-rank, as they are the premiere threats in the Sun series.

Psychic seed Yveltal is insanely good, as it's just as a good old AV Yveltal but having access to Roost. It's a really good Kyogre check, and it's insanely good against Suncrozma. Xerneas isn't as big of a threat because it can "wall" it with Snarl + Roost at +1 SpDef.


Edit: Ludicolo is not only good with Kyogre, but is really good as a Kyogre check when your team is a bit weak to Kyogre. It's also good vs Groudon and is really good as a FO user
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
I think that you're all sleeping on Tsareena

Tsareena + Scarf Ogre is a really strong core, only weak to Ludicolo and faster scarfers.

Tsareena's ability is really great for Kyogre, as it makes Kyogre immune to Fake Out and other priority moves (such as Yveltal Sucker Punch) so it can spam Water Spout almost freely. Tsareena has access to Feint and Helping Hand, so it's really great for Water Spout (Feint breaking Wide Guard and HH making Water Spout stupidly strong).

Tsareena's offensive capabilities are nothing to laugh about: Power Whip KOes other Kyogre and does an immense amount of damage to Groudon; HJK is really great vs Ferrothorn; and Knock Off is a really good support move for the rest of the team.

Also, its ability is better than Lele's because it can't be counter-terrained.
I think an Abomasnow team would counter Tsareena + Scarf Ogre nicely.
So as Kyogre+ Lunala .

Both power whip and HJK aren't very reliable. It will also hurt itself if it uses HKJ onto Ferrothorn.

Very few Pokemon are used to counter terrain Tapu Lele on the first turn.

Tsareena also takes over 50% damage from opposing Kyogre, so the other Pokemon can just KO Tsareena if it's faster than Tsareena.
 
I think an Abomasnow team would counter Tsareena + Scarf Ogre nicely.
So as Kyogre+ Lunala .

Both power whip and HJK aren't very reliable. It will also hurt itself if it uses HKJ onto Ferrothorn.

Very few Pokemon are used to counter terrain Tapu Lele on the first turn.

Tsareena also takes over 50% damage from opposing Kyogre, so the other Pokemon can just KO Tsareena if it's faster than Tsareena.
I mean, Kyoreena usually runs Incineroar to have a nice matchup vs Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Abomasnow, and other grass types that Kyogre doesn't deal well with. I for sure know that Power Whip isn't reliable (joking, but yes, it can miss), but it KOes Kyogre, which is something not to laugh about.

Tsareena can also have an Assault Vest which gives it a really good SpDef. I don't like it because it's better with HH imo. I run a nearly max SpD set which almost walls opposing Kyogre, and runs a pinch berry.

252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 228 HP / 252+ SpD Tsareena in Rain: 63-75 (35.7 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Tapu Lele can be counter terrained in turn 1 just by having Koko in the back and switching in. Also, Tapu Lele doesn't have access to Feint or HH, and I think those are the reason for using Tsareena (you can also use Hitmontop, but you can get Fake Outed as Hitmontop is one of the slowest FO users).

I think that Tsareena is a really strong pick on a Scarf Ogre team. Don't get me wrong, it's not the perfect Pokemon, but it does its job really nicely.
 
Right, this is going to be a controversial one.
Ho-oh to A.
I really, really like this mon right now. It removes xerneas, necrozma dm, ferrothorn, groudon, etc, has an absolute ton of bulk, recover, a signature move that burns every other shot, real good offensive stats, and a sick offensive typing. I’m going to say ho-oh’s the best tailwind setter right now, especially since lando is like non-existent. Paired with ferrothorn and kyogre, this thing forms a real solid core. Just because enemy kyogres are everywhere doesn’t mean this thing can’t do some pretty serious damage, especially since the kyogres usually come out later into the game.
 
Right, this is going to be a controversial one.
Ho-oh to A.
I really, really like this mon right now. It removes xerneas, necrozma dm, ferrothorn, groudon, etc, has an absolute ton of bulk, recover, a signature move that burns every other shot, real good offensive stats, and a sick offensive typing. I’m going to say ho-oh’s the best tailwind setter right now, especially since lando is like non-existent. Paired with ferrothorn and kyogre, this thing forms a real solid core. Just because enemy kyogres are everywhere doesn’t mean this thing can’t do some pretty serious damage, especially since the kyogres usually come out later into the game.
Seconding this - Ho-oh is probably the best anti-metagame Pokemon right now having good matchups vs. everything relevant other than Kyogre. Sacred Fire is ridiculous, it tanks Xerneas all day, and it makes Necrozma-DM essentially irrelevant.

I've been using Mewtwo a lot lately, and while it's definitely not A-rank, I think C is too low for it. It's frail, but Psystrike boosted by Life Orb and Psychic Terrain is absolutely brutal, and 130 is an incredible speed tier. I think B or B- is a good rank for it.

Abomasnow should definitely be ranked due to its fantastic matchup against both Kyogre and Groudon - B or C would probably be good for it since it does depend heavily on Trick Room support.
 
Rayquaza A -> D
Rayquaza just loses to- xern, kyogre, dialga, dusk mane and many more mons in the meta including the tapus. It doesn't have a physical flying stab without Dragon Ascent bar fly- which is lackluster in the first place, so physical rayquaza sets are kinda out of the water immediately, at best i can see it being used as a Bulldozer next to Solgaleo or Metagross with a special AV set of like air slash overheat draco, but even then it gets competition from Salamence which doesn't take a restricted slot and gets intimidate.

Lunala B->A
Have to agree with what was previously said here, It has a lot of versatility in the sets it can run and the roles it performs, it's the best ghost move user in the format and the best at handling stuff like bronzong and standard tr cores- despite the 4x weakness to dark and ghost thanks to shadow shield it's going to be getting some kind of attack off- it can be a- trick room setter, tailwind setter, a set up sweeper with cm and it has a very wide range of move options that can surprise previous checks like incineroar and yveltal like- focus blast, tbolt, and moonblast most notably. Not to mention this thing gets wide guard to hinder common spread move abusers like kyogre and xern.

Araquanid UR->B
Araquanid is THE BEST tr abuser in the format, its Liquidations can do 70% to a Kyogre in rain, kos Incineroar even at -1 with mystic water and just chunks every mon in the format. Can also abuse moves like bug bite which are way more valuable without the existence of z moves and megas as most things just end up holding berries. It also can use Wide Guard along with other niche picks like Substitute and Sticky Webs

Giratina B->C/D
Lost it's niche of being the only big ghost type user in the format thanks to Lunala, doesn't really like xern incineroar and yveltal being this present in the meta either- can't really see it getting much use or use at all, but at least it can take a water spout from kyogre well.

Zygarde-Complete B->C
Really bulky, but takes to long to get going and gets melted by xern ogre well and barely does damage back to it or most mons for that matter- if only this man could go complete form while also having aura break.
+3 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 184-217 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (most xerns are way bulkier than this even)
-1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 102-122 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 154-183 (88 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

just to give an idea of how much set up this thing needs.

Abomasnow UR->C
Another good tr mon, strongly agree with what was said previously and with the sheer popularity of ogre archetypes/ being able to reverse that weather is really helpful and it being able to hit a lot of the metagame for at least neutral is a plus- though the amount of teams running incin and 1 or more steels is annoying for it.
 
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Postin thoughts on noms before class

Abomasnow -> Ranked
Strongly agree, Abomasnow beats the rain matchup easily and does really well against sun teams provided you can avoid a fire attack from Groudon, making it a great anti-weather mon that should be B or B- imo.

Giratina B -> D
No reason to play this mon, defensively its far worse than Ferrothorn, Lugia, Lunala or Amoonguss, and offensively its completely worse than its Origin counterpart.

Giratina-O B -> C
This mon has a niche in countering Necrozma-DM and weather teams (especially sun, where Groudon can't touch this), but unless your team's really weak to those there's better options for the restricted slot.

I don't think anything should be S rank right now, the meta's still fresh and while mons like Kyogre and Xerneas are everywhere its entirely likely counters to them emerge and lessen their viability (as we're seeing already with Ferrothorn being a staple pick to beat both of those). I strongly disagree with Incineroar to S, it's really easy to fit on a team but the more I use it the less impressed I am by it, it's main use is providing fake out support and beating Necrozma-DM and Ferrothorn/Amoognuss. imo it should be A- if anywhere.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
Super excited for this season to get going! It seems like a lot of these ratings are based on previous gs cup seasons to some degree for a lot of reasons, so I'd like to provide some initial input based on meta changes and my personal experience laddering.

Rayquaza A -> C
If mega ray was available this would be a different story. But, as of right now, eliminating weather effects is nice yet not quite as important with only vanilla weather. A little too frail to really deal enough damage before getting knocked out. Agree.

Landorus-T A -> B
Not positive on this one, but crippling physical attackers doesn't seem as important in this meta with all of the big special attackers going around. Lando seems like more of a counter pick for dusk mane than anything else at the moment and isn't as splashable as in past seasons. Agree.

Smeargle A -> B/C
This one could change as well once Smeargle gets a more defined role or roles, but losing dark void was obviously very bad for our little painter.
B, Agree.

Kartana B -> A
Both the sash and bulky assault vest variants of kartana seem really well positioned at the moment, being able to handle the weather duo quite well in addition to serving as a xerneas check if you can get in some damage before it wrecks you with geomancy.
Agree.
Mewtwo B -> C
I had high hopes, but it just doesn't quite hit the calcs that it should and gets creamed by stuff like scarf kyogre, yveltal, and xerneas before it can do enough damage. Sounds weird, but maybe a bulkier psychic seed calm mind set could change this? Food for thought I guess.
Abstain for now. Wait until people start pairing Mewtwo with Lele.

Scrafty B -> C/D
Uuuuuh xerneas is a massive problem for our favorite young thug. Fighting coverage isn't quite as important in this meta, but it still serves a niche of being a solid dusk mane check with a strong knock off and intimidate.
C, Agree.

Tapu Fini B -> C
I don't like it, but fini just gets way outclassed by kyogre which is looking to be one of the best mons in the format. Still good in some situations, but not looking so hot right now. Hoping someone can prove me wrong on this one.
Abstain for now.

Lugia C -> A/B
This one might be a little bold, but with multiscale being available from the Japanese event, seed lugia can tank just about anything this format can throw at it and can provide a few different speed control options while stalling out a lot of different things with toxic or going for a calm mind set. I've had a lot of success with this on ladder and I'd highly recommend it.
Agree to B.

While these are the main points I wanted to mention, there are probably a few more changes that could be made. But, as of right now, there isn't really any data or results to go off of, so I'm mostly just using intuition and what I've experienced while laddering and discussing with Shivershaft and other friends. I could be completely wrong on a lot of these predictions and I can certainly be swayed on all of them with some good evidence.
Hey man, really happy that the thread got put up. Just wanted to makes a few more suggestions to add onto Jash’s.

Stakataka A->B
This pile of bricks may be a great trick room setter though it lacks the ability to take hits from the most notable special attackers bar xerneas which it notably deals with quite well, though dusk mane necrozma is quite good at the niche that stakataka fills, though it takes a restricted spot and it is somewhat more threatened by Incineroar. It’s premier item, focus sash, is also threatened by the multitude of fake out users like Incineroar and Hitmontop that also threaten a follow up like low kick or close combat. In addition the slight rise in usage of moves like low kick and don’t help it either.
Agree.
Tyranitar B -> C
Tyranitar is in an awkward spot in this meta. It finds itself pushed around by the legendaries who often OHKO it such as xerneas, dusk mane necrozma or groudon and kyogre, both of which can remove sandstorm. It is a way to take out Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Girintina and Lunala. Though several of these mons can threaten a KO on Tyranitar should they have the right coverage or a burn in the case of Ho-Oh. The Tapus, rise in usage of grass types notably kartana, ferrothorn, tsareena and ludicolo and rise of weight related moves (i.e. grass knot and low kick) also do not help Tyranitar’s case.
Agree.
As more information comes in from tournament results and the meta settles I’m sure we’ll see more shifts. The meta is still in flux and I’m sure that we’ll see some more standardized teams pop up.

Also on a side note can we mention the psyduck meme from the VGC discord here in the meme tier, I think it would be a great (albeit a tad early as primal aren’t out) addition. May I also mention that Lilligant is currently being represented by a Hippoptas sprite. long live hippo meta. Thank you for catching this.
Right, this is going to be a controversial one.
Ho-oh to A. 1000%
I really, really like this mon right now. It removes xerneas, necrozma dm, ferrothorn, groudon, etc, has an absolute ton of bulk, recover, a signature move that burns every other shot, real good offensive stats, and a sick offensive typing. I’m going to say ho-oh’s the best tailwind setter right now, especially since lando is like non-existent. Paired with ferrothorn and kyogre, this thing forms a real solid core. Just because enemy kyogres are everywhere doesn’t mean this thing can’t do some pretty serious damage, especially since the kyogres usually come out later into the game.
Rayquaza A -> D
Rayquaza just loses to- xern, kyogre, dialga, dusk mane and many more mons in the meta including the tapus. It doesn't have a physical flying stab without Dragon Ascent bar fly- which is lackluster in the first place, so physical rayquaza sets are kinda out of the water immediately, at best i can see it being used as a Bulldozer next to Solgaleo or Metagross with a special AV set of like air slash overheat draco, but even then it gets competition from Salamence which doesn't take a restricted slot and gets intimidate.
Agree to C, not quite D though.

Lunala B->A
Have to agree with what was previously said here, It has a lot of versatility in the sets it can run and the roles it performs, it's the best ghost move user in the format and the best at handling stuff like bronzong and standard tr cores- despite the 4x weakness to dark and ghost thanks to shadow shield it's going to be getting some kind of attack off- it can be a- trick room setter, tailwind setter, a set up sweeper with cm and it has a very wide range of move options that can surprise previous checks like incineroar and yveltal like- focus blast, tbolt, and moonblast most notably. Not to mention this thing gets wide guard to hinder common spread move abusers like kyogre and xern.
I agree with this as the reasoning is spot on in this response. It's low A but it is definitely a top tier threat and fits better with the A mons.

Araquanid UR->B
Araquanid is THE BEST tr abuser in the format, its Liquidations can do 70% to a Kyogre in rain, kos Incineroar even at -1 with mystic water and just chunks every mon in the format. Can also abuse moves like bug bite which are way more valuable without the existence of z moves and megas as most things just end up holding berries. It also can use Wide Guard along with other niche picks like Substitute and Sticky Webs
Agree.

Giratina B->C/D
Lost it's niche of being the only big ghost type user in the format thanks to Lunala, doesn't really like xern incineroar and yveltal being this present in the meta either- can't really see it getting much use or use at all, but at least it can take a water spout from kyogre well.
Agree, but I think people forget that Giratina can survive Xern Moonblast and threaten decent damage back with Phantom Force. Toxic Hex Giratina is also something to be on the lookout for. Definitely C tier, but not D. Origin Forme could argue to stay due to the offensive pressure it provides.

Zygarde-Complete B->C
Really bulky, but takes to long to get going and gets melted by xern ogre well and barely does damage back to it or most mons for that matter- if only this man could go complete form while also having aura break.
+3 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 184-217 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (most xerns are way bulkier than this even)
-1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 102-122 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 154-183 (88 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

just to give an idea of how much set up this thing needs.
Agree.

Abomasnow UR->C
Another good tr mon, strongly agree with what was said previously and with the sheer popularity of ogre archetypes/ being able to reverse that weather is really helpful and it being able to hit a lot of the metagame for at least neutral is a plus- though the amount of teams running incin and 1 or more steels is annoying for it. Agree.
Thank you ALL for this massive influx of involvement here! I read every response but I quoted the ones that I feel drove the changes that we will be seeing added today! I will implement the above changes and they will be listed below when updated. The original post will also reflect the date it was updated so you can always quickly check the original post for an update before having to search to see if it has updated. Anyways, on to it:

Kyogre A -> A+

Incineroar A -> A+

Xerneas A -> A+

Kartana B -> A

Rayquaza A -> C

Landorus-T A -> B

Smeargle A -> B

Scrafty B -> C

Lugia C -> B

Stakataka A -> B

Tyranitar B -> C

Ho-oh B -> A

Lunala B -> A

Araquanid UR -> B

Giratina B -> C

Zygarde-Complete B -> C

Abomasnow UR -> C

That should be it for now! Keep on discussing. This is great! Also, Shoutout to AegisVGC for this awesome resource for usage tracked so far!
 
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Yuichii

umu!
is a Live Chat Contributor
Cresselia: A->B

I feel like this is generally outclassed by other more common trick room setters such as Stakataka, Lunala and Dusk Mane Necrozma in general. Dont get me wrong though, it is still a great mon but i feel like unlike most of the other trick room setters, it is kind of underwhelming due to the fact that it is not able to do enough damage under trick room and can only be used as a support option most of the time. It honestly just isnt in a great spot right now.

Hitmontop: A->B

Hear me out on this one, although having the combination of intimidate/wide guard/fake out is good and all, i feel like it isnt as doing as much as one would expect it to. Its damage output is really disappointing, not bring able to deal enough to incineroar sucks since incineroar is honestly one of the biggest mons in the format rn (incineroar can comfortably take close combats at -1). Its bulk isnt too impressive either, as most super effective hits still ko it despite the investment. Its speed tier is also kind of awkward. After testing out on several teams, i found that its inability to both deal damage and take hits really hurt a lot considering how fast paced the format is currently, thus i decided to explore an alternative option: Mienshao. This also leads me to my next nom.
-1 252+ Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mienshao: D->C/B

It basically gets the same moves that Hitmontop gets, with the exception of helping hand. However, instead of Intimidate, Mienshao gets inner focus, which i find is a much better ability in the current metagame due to the fact that physical attackers are not as prevelant and the fact that guarantees u that wide guard on t1 in the face of an opposing fake out user. Mienshao also have a much higher damage output as compared to Hitmontop, being able to ohko Incineroar with high jump kick even at -1 with life orb, and also outspeeds majority, if not all the common restricted mons with 252jolly. This is extremely beneficial as it also gets u turn, allowing it to pivot out quickly in the face of threats such as Xerneas and bring in something like Stakataka or Dusk Mane Necrozma to check it. After testing several teams, i found that Mienshao pairs extremely well with Lunala as it provides setup opportunities for Lunala and can threaten big damage on both Incineroar and Yveltel
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 148-175 (73.6 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 205-244 (101.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kyurem-B: C->B

With its absurdly high attack and its above average speed (outspeeding both ogre/don), it is able to carve itself a niche in the current metagame by dishing out incredible amounts of damage, especially with koko being on the field more often due to the absence of landorus-t, it basically gets a third stab with fusion bolt, allow it to chunk things such as Xerneas, Yveltel and Kyogre. Its dragon typing also does relatively well defensively in the current metagame, being able to take water spouts from Kyogre. I have been messing with two sets for the past two days and i think it has a pretty good spot in the metagame right now. The power herb freeze shock set, allows Kyub access to a (somewhat inaccurate but still devastating) pseudo Z move that is able to massively chunk anything that does not resist it. Its other set, the assault vest set, provides move coverage and is able to take on Kyogre better, eating water spouts more comfortably. It is also able to take on and check other mons such as Ho-oh with fusion bolt.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Drifblim: D -> C

Unburden + Seed is still really good; something Drifblim never had access to in a GS Cup format. As far as tailwind mons go, Drifblim's support movepool is second to none, and a lot of these options are arguably more relevant in GS Cup format than they were in VGC 17/18. It can set up sun to neuter Kyogre's damage output, it can Will-o-Wisp the mons that normally threaten it for heavy damage (e.g. Dusk Mane, Yveltal, Ferrothorn), and it also has access to Clear Smog to prevent itself from becoming setup bait for mons like Xerneas. The loan downside is that its damage output isn't great, but at least its Ghost typing allows it to somewhat threaten pokes like Tapu Lele and Dusk Mane for reasonable chip damage.

Salamence C->D, maybe even UR

Is there even a reason to use this mon w/o a mega evo? Like sure, it gets intimidate and Tailwind, but its typing leaves it vulnerable in a tier that's run by Xerneas + Tapus, and its damage output without Aerialate leaves a lot to be desired.

I have more thoughts that I'll be sure to give later when I'm out of class, but wanted to make a post on Drifblim because I think it's being slept on right now
 

ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Ok here's a fun one:

Parasect UR -> C/D

With access to all three of Spore, Rage Powder, and Wide Guard, Parasect can be a neat little toolbox mon for rain builds. It does pretty much all of the things that Amoonguss does, like spreading sleep on unprepared Trick Room teams and redirecting attacks with Rage Powder, but also comes with an ability to completely shut down Water Spout and Origin Pulse, allowing your partner to deal with opposing Kyogre. It is, however, very passive and prone to utter obliteration at the hands of a well-positioned Incineroar or Yveltal. Parasect is an alternative take on Amoonguss, nothing more and nothing less, so it definitely doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the same rank, but in a meta where rain and Trick Room are both very relevant, I feel it's worth a mention.
 

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