I admit I forgot it has Inner FocusFake out immunity + haze with the fairy resistance and 130 base speed makes it one of the most reliable Xern check
I admit I forgot it has Inner FocusFake out immunity + haze with the fairy resistance and 130 base speed makes it one of the most reliable Xern check
I disagree. Cresselia may not need Skill Swap, but it’s probably the most reliable trick room setter in the metagame. It’s almost never OHKOED by anything bar Yveltal, and doesn’t have to worry about Z-Moves currently. A Rank is fine for it.From looking at this tier list it is mostly accurate, but I am afraid it is too based on how mons have been used in previous generations. It doesn't seem to take into relevant changes. For example, Cress is listed as pretty high tier here, even though Cress was mostly good in 2016 because the Primal dichotomy was so common and could Skill Swap. Nowadays Skill Swap is pretty pointless as there is very little Groudon Kyogre dichotomy wars. I have carefully established all my tiers by testing and thinking about relevant changes and how mons have been used in the past rather than simply thinking of their previous tier and copy and pasting into this format. I am not too familiar with Smogon tiers, but I think listing Ho-Oh in the same tier as Dusk-Mane is crazy. My blog lists all of my tiers and they take into account many people's opinions on Showdown (where they are actually battling). http://deaglebeagle.blogspot.com/
I disagree with koko immensely, it could be that I run thunder with kyogre though. I’ve noticed no lack of power, and I consistently ko all sorts of kyogres and ho-ohs with 252 spA. That base 130 speed has saved me on multiple occasions, just slap a focus sash on it if items and bulk bother you.I disagree. Cresselia may not need Skill Swap, but it’s probably the most reliable trick room setter in the metagame. It’s almost never OHKOED by anything bar Yveltal, and doesn’t have to worry about Z-Moves currently. A Rank is fine for it.
On your blog, I don’t think saying Koko outclasses Zekrom is true. Zekrom, unlike Koko, can reliably take Advantage of its Gargantuan attack Stat thanks to its high BP moves like Bolt Strike and Dragon Claw, unlike Koko who has Wild Charge and no Physical Fairy STAB move. Teravolt is huge against Lightning Rod, which allows Zekrom to destroy Kyogre through lightning Rod support.
Speaking of Koko, it needs to go to B-Rank. The loss of Z-Moves hurts it, and 95 Base SpAtk is Awful. Things like Kyogre and Ho-Oh which it should be KOING can take a hit and retaliate back. It use comes from Electric Terrain and support options now.
I disagree with Dialga. The number one problem is that it can’t reliably check Xerneas outside of TR, as Xerneas can set up Geomancy, which turns Flash Cannon to a 3HKO. You could run iron head, but that leaves you vulnerable to intimidate. Checking Tapus, Ferrothorn, and Dragon types means running Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, which makes no room for TR it’s best set.I disagree with koko immensely, it could be that I run thunder with kyogre though. I’ve noticed no lack of power, and I consistently ko all sorts of kyogres and ho-ohs with 252 spA. That base 130 speed has saved me on multiple occasions, just slap a focus sash on it if items and bulk bother you.
Also, Dialga should move up, it’s an anti meta monster right now. Ferrothorn, kyogre, necrozma-dm, cress, tapus, etc. all can’t really touch it, xerneas fears it’s flash cannon, it has trick room, and no defensive stats under 100. It’s also a steel type that doesn’t have an incredibly terrible incineroar matchup, which is pretty valuable right now.
I disagree with 4mss. Protect is useful, but not 100% necessary. I run a set of dragon pulse, flash cannon, flamethrower, and trick room. While dialga is not a complete counter to xerneas, it is useful to discourage a switch, or at least make the enemy think a bit before pulling some shifty geomancy stuff.I disagree with Dialga. The number one problem is that it can’t reliably check Xerneas outside of TR, as Xerneas can set up Geomancy, which turns Flash Cannon to a 3HKO. You could run iron head, but that leaves you vulnerable to intimidate. Checking Tapus, Ferrothorn, and Dragon types means running Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Flamethrower, which makes no room for TR it’s best set.
Doesn’t Gyro Ball always 2HKO Xerneas with basically no investment and OHKO with 252 Atk investment? That’s a lot more than 20%Ferrothorn from A to B
Okay I suppose this is a drastic proposal, but I think Ferrothorn is extremely mediocre in this format. While its typing is wonderful, Ferrothorn suffers from a few things. The main one is its lack of utility. In a restricted format, you want to either deal lots of damage, or you want to support the damage dealers. Ferrothorn lacks either trait - its strong matchups against Kyogre and Xerneas are held back by its mediocre offensive typing and Incineroar being on virtually every team, giving players multiple ways to ignore its presence on the field. Its bulk is also nothing spectacular and Water Spouts and Moonblasts eventually wear it down. Basically, Ferrothorn takes 40% and deals like 20% back (not actual damage numbers, but rough estimates of taking such hits and the opponent responding to it / what it feels like), and offers very little to aid its high damaging partners.
It's an alright TR deterrent in rain spam but that's probably its best use.
first of all, the vr has been out for literally 8 daysI fear the meta is a bit stale. There are 6, count them, 6 non-restricted A rank Pokemon, far less than literally any other season.
Ho-Oh A --> B+
Mewtwo C+ --> B-
Toxicroak C --> B+
Now that you say it, heatran actually looks really usable. It has a niche over incineroar in it’s godly fairy and ferrothorn matchup as well as it’s immunity to intimidate, better speed, and flash fire. Then again it doesn’t get knock off, fake out, or intimidate.Is there any reason why Heatran is bad in this meta? It has such low usage. But I was thinking of using it tomorrow in an event as a Xerneas check, and I haven’t got time to extensively test it. Seems decent on paper
Not sure if it's actually bad, but rather Incineroar offers more because of Knock Off, Fake Out, or Intimidate as per RBY. Given those it's still very useful against Kyogre teams, where as Heatran is kinda deadweight in rain. Incineroar also has a better match-up against most Ubers in general - Necrozma-DM, Lunala, Solgaleo (blocks Heat Wave with Wide Guard), Yveltal, and even against Ubers they fair poorly against like Groudon thanks to Intimidate + Fake Out. Heatran only seems better against Xerneas and Ho-Oh, but Heatran ain't doing anything back to Ho-Oh without Ancient Power whilst Incineroar at least has Intimidate and Fake Out once again.Is there any reason why Heatran is bad in this meta? It has such low usage. But I was thinking of using it tomorrow in an event as a Xerneas check, and I haven’t got time to extensively test it. Seems decent on paper
Definitely not a top tier pokemon as it stands, but has a couple niches. It got a bit of use with Red Card back in 2016, being that its one of only a tiny tiny tiny proportion of Pokemon that can switch in on Xerneas almost completely safely, and force it out.Is there any reason why Heatran is bad in this meta? It has such low usage. But I was thinking of using it tomorrow in an event as a Xerneas check, and I haven’t got time to extensively test it. Seems decent on paper
Ferrothorn from A to B
Okay I suppose this is a drastic proposal, but I think Ferrothorn is extremely mediocre in this format. While its typing is wonderful, Ferrothorn suffers from a few things. The main one is its lack of utility. In a restricted format, you want to either deal lots of damage, or you want to support the damage dealers. Ferrothorn lacks either trait - its strong matchups against Kyogre and Xerneas are held back by its mediocre offensive typing and Incineroar being on virtually every team, giving players multiple ways to ignore its presence on the field. Its bulk is also nothing spectacular and Water Spouts and Moonblasts eventually wear it down. Basically, Ferrothorn takes 40% and deals like 20% back (not actual damage numbers, but rough estimates of taking such hits and the opponent responding to it / what it feels like), and offers very little to aid its high damaging partners.
It's an alright TR deterrent in rain spam but that's probably its best use.
Doesn’t Gyro Ball always 2HKO Xerneas with basically no investment and OHKO with 252 Atk investment? That’s a lot more than 20%
Apart from that, I do get what you’re saying. Plus Leech Seed is pretty useless in this meta.
As for the Cresselia debate discussed earlier, I think it’s still viable because of the bulk and typing and lack of Z moves to threaten it. Plus Taunt isn’t that common. I haven’t compared it directly to Necrozma DM and Porygon 2 in testing, but it does have a niche with Ally Switch which is a grossly underestimated move.
Ferrothorn's roles are checking common threats, most notably Kyogre + Ludicolo and Xerneas, providing a late-game win-con if you can out its threats. It should be used with Kyogre to check Incineroar, and being a TR-deterrant. It should be used with Kyogre since that makes it difficult to OHKO Ferrothorn, particularly alongside Intimidate.Oh in a straight 1v1 Ferrothorn absolutely bodies Xerneas outside of random stuff like HP Fire. WHat I'm trying to get at with those numbers was Ferrothorn in general being easy to respond to, since its coverage is relatively specific so switching into its attacks is easy, and an Intimidate can also put it out of 2HKOing range against Kyogre and Xerneas depending on how bulky they are, allowing them potentially an extra turn to threaten its partner.
Which somewhat relates to the point about Ferrothorn not contributing much when Incineroar is around. Much of the reason relates to the fact that the Pokemon it hits hard are either weak to its STABs or frail like Koko.In a restricted format, you want to either deal lots of damage, or you want to support the damage dealers. Ferrothorn lacks either trait
Mostly testing and viewing others results with these mons. Ho-Oh is good but not A material. an increase in Groudon use has made it harder for Ho-Oh to stick around without taking a rock slide. Granted it can burn Groudon, it is being cycled out. Still a good anti meta mon but not A material.I'm interested in what figures drove the following changes (the rest I think are unremarkable/self-explanatory):
I think B+ is a good call. Ferrothorn is always good at the beginning of the year but it fizzles out once people realize it can't just be slapped on any team thanks to typing. It requires specific matchups and specific conditions. When those conditions are met it's an amazing win condition but for the most part it can be beat pretty handily. As a side note, I absolutely love catching Ferrothorn on the Groudon switch in with HP fire. That is very satisfying.Ferrothorn's roles are checking common threats, most notably Kyogre + Ludicolo and Xerneas, providing a late-game win-con if you can out its threats. It should be used with Kyogre to check Incineroar, and being a TR-deterrant. It should be used with Kyogre since that makes it difficult to OHKO Ferrothorn, particularly alongside Intimidate.
This is the Ferrothorn set I like, with enough Atk to OHKO 4 HP / 4 Def Kyogre and Xerneas:
Ferrothorn @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Atk / 28 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
In response to your point about Intimidate putting it outside of 2HKO range, Xerneas and Kyogre need to be very bulky to avoid a 2HKO after Intimidate:
224 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (135 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def / 0 Spe Modest Xerneas: 150-176 (64.3 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In terms of bulk:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Ferrothorn: 93-109 (51.3 - 60.2%)-- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 69-81 (38.1 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
In practice it's very difficult to wear it down with resisted hits thanks to the Wiki berry. (Note whilst +2 Xern 2HKOes, you should not be placing yourself in a scenario where Ferrothorn is forced to take two boosted Moonblasts.)
Leech Seed I find is useful. It gives a win-con against certain teams, since many teams only have Incineroar as a counter and one other check that isn't an Uber, including many teams with 2 of the 3 most common Ubers (Kyogre, Xern, Nec-DM). Removing Incineroar can seal the game by with Ferrothorn and Leech Seed, with Wiki Berry helping if it needs to take much damage in the meanwhile. There's many Pokemon it can set-up on. In the A ranks this includes Necrozma-DM, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Cresselia, Yveltal without an item boost, and Lunala depending on its set (needs Focus Blast or an item boost).
I think it should move up to B+ or A-. The main reason I'm afraid to suggest higher is:
- it's somewhat match-up dependent. It fairs well against teams that have Ubers that don't threaten it, which is many teams, but is somewhat deadweight against those that do have one (Groudon and Ho-Oh being the main offenders).
- Incineroar is that common. Games can come down to does Incineroar or Ferrothorn fall first. But Incineroar tends to contribute more than Ferrothorn when either are alive in those games.
Which somewhat relates to the point about Ferrothorn not contributing much when Incineroar is around. Much of the reason relates to the fact that the Pokemon it hits hard are either weak to its STABs or frail like Koko.
- it loses its notable OHKOes after Intimidate. Though it can still 2HKO, that may not be enough to finish the job. In large part because Xerneas teams often have ample support for Xern.
- in contrasts with Amoonguss, who at least can use Rage Powder to do something in bad-match-ups whilst sharing many of Ferrothorn's roles, and is generally more reliable in the face of Incineroar.
I would have said easy A rank at the very start of the metagame, A- more recently. Today I'm seeing more Groudon teams than before, so i am leaning more towards B+.