Resource VGC 2019 Viability Rankings [Moon Series Update]

I feel like Aegislash should be on here as a B or C.
Wide guard stops Kyogre from dealing massive damage and forces switches on the scarfogres who are already locked in. Wide Guard also stops Groudon using its ground attacks and tempts contact with fire punch so creates King's Shield mind games, meanwhile shadow ball does reliable damage against its s.def. Steel type isn't hurting at all slowing down Xerneas most grass types and gives a hard time to Lele and Necrozma. It's an especially good option to hurt trick room teams with and shadow ball is still lethal with life orb.
I've been using it on the same team as fake tears + helping hand Whimsicott to guarantee KO's as prankster still works under trick room.
The main problem is dark types, especially Incineroar which it can't dent.
Though it is still handy having a steel wide guard user, immune to fake out and feint with decent firepower and can work well in and out of trick room.
 
I think heatran should go down to B or B-. Reason why is that although 4x resisting fairy type moves which is very good where tapus and xerneas are running around, but you would mainly see it in sun teams because it’s a fire type. Groudon is the most used sun setter in the format, and with resisting fairy by 4x, it’s weakness is 4x ground. Which it can easily be ohkoed by a precipice blades, unless you use focus sash, or air balloon.
 
Pretty simple.... Usage stats fluctuate regularly whereas updates here are not done hastily. Lurantis usage on the ladder seems to have spiked but that doesn't mean we have to immediately move it up here until it's proven to be actually good rather than just a phase.

I took a quick look on vgcstats and could only find one team featuring Lurantis, so i'm inclined to believe it's still D rank
That makes sense. I was just shocked to see Lurantis of all things in Top 30 on Global Link despite never really making any headway in any metagame until now. Regardless of rank the surprise Superpower tutor seems to have helped a lot.

How often does Global Link usage update anyway?
 

DreamPrince

Formerly Leader Wallace
That makes sense. I was just shocked to see Lurantis of all things in Top 30 on Global Link despite never really making any headway in any metagame until now. Regardless of rank the surprise Superpower tutor seems to have helped a lot.

How often does Global Link usage update anyway?
Once every Monday
 
Can we add Cherrim on the list? Somewhere around C- seems appropriate.

It's a good Groudon support thanks to Flower Gift, Helping Hand, Heal Pulse, Sunny Day, and Worry Seed and chips opposing Don/Ogres with Grass Knot.

Flower Gift + Helping Hand deals insane amounts of damage coming from Groudon or Yveltal(with Dark Aura boost even more) and if predicting well can heal its ally with Heal Pulse.


Has also started to get some CP now as seen here and here
 
Can we add Cherrim on the list? Somewhere around C- seems appropriate.

It's a good Groudon support thanks to Flower Gift, Helping Hand, Heal Pulse, Sunny Day, and Worry Seed and chips opposing Don/Ogres with Grass Knot.

Flower Gift + Helping Hand deals insane amounts of damage coming from Groudon or Yveltal(with Dark Aura boost even more) and if predicting well can heal its ally with Heal Pulse.


Has also started to get some CP now as seen here and here
I’d like to say that I really like Cherrim... but whenever I test it it dies really quickly before it can actually do anything. Amazing in theory but all of its stats (defensive, offensive AND speed), are horrible. But otherwise, I support it :p
 
Tornadus should also move up. It's really good in Ogre teams now that Groudon is popular for prankster rain dance, TW support, and killing grass types that are common switch-ins.

Also just noticed Excadrill is ranked... It probably shouldn't be, I can't think of a single use for it. Maybe in moon but for now it's straight trash (this coming from someone who loves Excadrill too).
 
2 mons that I think really need to be ranked are Togedemaru and Talonflame.

So to me Togedemaru is a slightly slower steel Raichu with a cooler moveset. It has moves like Endeavour, Helping Hand, Super Fang and Gravity. Steel typing is good and bad, it takes hits from Xerneas and Lele better (able to live a +2 Moonblast from Xern), but it has a tougher time with Incineroar and Kartana (though Kartana doesn't want to be Nuzzled). Having spiky shield instead of protect might be slightly better for potentially breaking a sash on Kartana but other than that the chip's not that relevant. Something that kind of sucks about Togedemaru is that it underspeeds Xerneas, so if you're opponent's running Timid Xern you can't nuzzle and encore it after it geos as comfortably as you could with Raichu.

Talonflame obviously isn't as good as it was in VGC16, but it's still somewhat viable. Priority/fast Tailwind, fast Taunt, 1 priority brave bird opportunity and other options like Will-o-wisp, Quick Guard and Snatch. It can outspeed the AV Koko's that are just outspeeding base 110s, though that's not all that relevant. But I mean...it's pretty frail and pretty weak.

Not sure where I'd put them, probably B- for Togedemaru and err...C/C- for Talonflame?

And yeah I definitely agree with Torn moving up. It's had quite a bit of usage on showdown and it just won Frankfurt regionals if I'm not mistaken? I'd say it's a solid B.
 
Okay, I ran talonflame to top 8 at Frankfurt bringing it in 17 out of my 25 games. I can honestly say it is being slept on as a support option within Xerneas teams.

The bird may have been nerfed but it still does its job outstandingly: that being setting up tailwind, dishing out some damage, being generally pesky, and then committing suicide to allow a partner to take the field in the now hopefully advantageous situation.

With a wide array of support moves including Will-o-wisp, quick guard, tailwind, taunt, whirlwind, and others this Pokémon can be tinkered to support any team in need of a better matchup against Solgaleo and Xerneas/Groudon. Flare Blitz and Brave Bird both deal respectable damage, particularly when paired with a Life Orb or with the likes of Drought from Groudon.

A lot of recoil is involved but you *want* this bird to die once it's done its job to maintain momentum. Once you've prevented opposing setup, blocked the likes of roar, or setup speed control in a format which lacks it you want to have this bird go down. And simply ignoring it does not work due to the fact it does actually hurt.

Gale Wings being nerfed is a shame but isn't the largest of issues, you still get priority tailwind and have a speed stat that allows you to comfortably outspeed the vast majority of the metagame. Priority bravebird remains threatening upon switch-ins through u-turn or other means.

A lot of the Venusaur teams running about have a significant weakness to well supported Groudon with speed control, talonflame packages all of this as well as doing good to huge damage to most opponents such as Kartana, Groudon, Xerneas, Amoongus, etc.

It is by no means an amazing Pokémon, but it is a great support that has a niche within the metagame.

I would rate it for B- or B personally.

Okay looking at the other Pokémon I would place it in B+ or A-.
Toxicroak had its niche in a specific point of the metagame and remains good, just it isn't A- worthy. It should be dropped to B+ or B.

Also Tornadus should be B.

It's doesn't function independently but can make specific teams scary for the common groudon archetype. A good support.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
Hi All!

Seen some good discussion so far and I'd like to add a note that I do use a combination of things to determine ranking, with a heavy lean towards actual success stats such as VGCstats to determine ranking. Success on showdown is just about as good as theory until it proves itself in a tournament setting. It will help your cause with replays to show what it does in action otherwise it's just reading theory. I'm not responding to anyone in particular with this but again, successful tournament results speak much louder than words here. Regardless I do see some opportunities to add some Pokemon to this list as the metagame has added some fun little quirks to it. The general core of this list is entirely spot on now and I feel the top tier is almost locked down until the next big regional introduces something new.

One way I like to mentally break down this list is as follows and this will help you see some of my decisions:

S Tier (Stop it please this is hurting my soul)

A+ (Is this 2016? butterfly meme)

A (Best non restricted/secondary restricteds)

A- (Quality staples to teams)

B+ (Situational staples/supports)

B (Situational creative options that can be successful or are pending a meta shift in their favor)

B- (Same as above but lacking in the proven success)

C Tier as a whole (Theoretically viable but pending success or very limited success/use)( I see you klefki/giratina-o)

D Tier as a whole (Niche that isn't splashable at all. Very specific roles that can work but are often not worth the effort put into it)

I hope this helps! And with this being said there is changes to be made:



Ludicolo A- --> A

Toxicroak A- --> B+

Bronzong B+ --> A-

Drifblim B+ --> B

Heatran B+ --> B

Solgaleo B+ --> B

Stakataka B+ --> A-

Tsareena B+ --> B

Abomasnow B --> B-

Araquanid B --> B-

Crobat B --> B+

Ferrothorn B --> B+

Dialga B --> B-

Palkia B --> B-

Celesteela B- --> C+

Clefairy --> C

Gothitelle B- --> C-

Lugia B- --> C

Zapdos C+ --> B-

Ditto UR --> B-

Talonflame UR --> C

Togedemaru UR --> C

Cherrim UR --> C+

Nihilego UR --> C

Let me know if any of these moves were questionable or if I missed anything! Discuss!

- Netherious
 
I would honestly put Talonflame at B- at least, it single handedly takes on many XDon variants.

It has seen ladder success and a regional result.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
I would honestly put Talonflame at B- at least, it single handedly takes on many XDon variants.

It has seen ladder success and a regional result.
Ladder success from who? And what are you defining as success? I'm not seeing it "singlehandedly" beating xerndon. That statement isn't convincing at all without some serious proof. It fits right in at C tier, and if it's going to go any higher I need to see more successful usage from high ladder players and even then so, I don't really care much for ladder usage. Ladder usage =/= success. I see you and the top cut with it at a Frankfurt but seeing as it was the only talonflame to make it? I'm not convinced it's a thing, yet. Maybe it'll make it there but I'm not believing it yet.
 
I would honestly put Talonflame at B- at least, it single handedly takes on many XDon variants.

It has seen ladder success and a regional result.
It's only merritt is Gale Wings, meaning you can easily get screwed over by any fakeout+setup mon core. Even if you protect on the first turn, there's still the chance you won't take out the setup mon such as Xern or a TR setter and then you get screwed over regardless. Hell, Feint Tsar+Kyogre completely shuts you down if Ogre is scarf.
Fire bird=/=good bird.
I've been gone from the meta for months and even I know that, and I'm the dumbass running leek duck.
 
Flare Blitz and Brave Bird both deal respectable damage, particularly when paired with a Life Orb or with the likes of Drought from Groudon.

A lot of the Venusaur teams running about have a significant weakness to well supported Groudon with speed control, talonflame packages all of this as well as doing good to huge damage to most opponents such as Kartana, Groudon, Xerneas, Amoongus, etc.

It is by no means an amazing Pokémon, but it is a great support that has a niche within the metagame.

I would rate it for B- or B personally.

Okay looking at the other Pokémon I would place it in B+ or A-..
Look, everybody knows I'm all for giving any old shitmon a red hot go in VGC, but I just struggle to see where this "huge damage" is coming from. I ran the calcs for a 252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Talonflame against the two Legendary Pokemon you listed and got this:

Against 252 HP Groudon in Sun: Brave Bird did a maximum of 46.8% and Flare Blitz did a maximum of 70.5%.
Against 4 HP Xerneas: Both Brave Bird and Flare Blitz do a maximum of 60.3%.

And obviously Talonflame can kill a Kartana with Flare Blitz. A Magby with Ember could probably threaten Kartana.

Therefore I'm not convinced. It gets Tailwind up and then just... dies? It doesn't seem to accomplish anything offensively. Certainly doesn't threaten Xerneas or Groudon which can both OHKO back (+2 Moonblast or Rock Slide respectively). There's way better Tailwind users that aren't as frail, are more threatening offensively, or who have Prankster which is way more reliable than Gale Wings (because Fake Out is a thing).

EDIT: you know what? I damn well looked it up. A 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magby with Ember does 262.6 - 313.4% to 4 SpD Kartana. That's OP AF. Let's just put Magby in B+ Rank as well?
 
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Ace Emerald

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Therefore I'm not convinced. It gets Tailwind up and then just... dies? It doesn't seem to accomplish anything offensively. Certainly doesn't threaten Xerneas or Groudon which can both OHKO back (+2 Moonblast or Rock Slide respectively). There's way better Tailwind users that aren't as frail, are more threatening offensively, or who have Prankster which is way more reliable than Gale Wings (because Fake Out is a thing).
Yeah, that's what you want Tailwind users to do on a hyper offense team. Set up tailwind and get out of the way to bring in a heavy hitter. It threatens Xerneas and Groudon for 50% of their HP, which again is the whole point of the Pokemon. It doesn't need to threaten an OHKO: if it threatens a 2HKO, Xern/Don have to waste a turn killing it in order to not die themselves. Rock Slide is not really what Groudon wants to do with its time, and Xerneas would rather Moonblast something more crucial to your win con, or Dazzle for the spread damage. But they can't do that because they need to remove Talonflame, which gives you turns to do things with the partner and get a free switch to something more threatening when the bird does bite the dust. FWIW I haven't used Talonflame and don't really care what rank its listed in, but wgeurts is making some pretty valid arguements and has a pretty decent regional finish to back up their claims. Right now, the meta is largely XDon teams that have XDon + setup Pokemon + counters to other XDon teams, so I can see Talonflame being pretty good if it checks both boxes of assisting setup and checking XDon.
 
Yeah, that's what you want Tailwind users to do on a hyper offense team. Set up tailwind and get out of the way to bring in a heavy hitter. It threatens Xerneas and Groudon for 50% of their HP, which again is the whole point of the Pokemon. It doesn't need to threaten an OHKO: if it threatens a 2HKO, Xern/Don have to waste a turn killing it in order to not die themselves. Rock Slide is not really what Groudon wants to do with its time, and Xerneas would rather Moonblast something more crucial to your win con, or Dazzle for the spread damage. But they can't do that because they need to remove Talonflame, which gives you turns to do things with the partner and get a free switch to something more threatening when the bird does bite the dust. FWIW I haven't used Talonflame and don't really care what rank its listed in, but wgeurts is making some pretty valid arguements and has a pretty decent regional finish to back up their claims. Right now, the meta is largely XDon teams that have XDon + setup Pokemon + counters to other XDon teams, so I can see Talonflame being pretty good if it checks both boxes of assisting setup and checking XDon.
Yes but... I don't think it actually checks XDon. At least not reliably. It sets up Tailwind while Xerneas and Groudon set up on the same turn. Then you probably go first and deal 60% damage. Then you get GUARANTEED OHKO'd by a +2 Fire Punch after your recoil damage, or a +2 Moonblast. In fact an unboosted Moonblast is a guaranteed 2HKO so Xern doesn't even need to set up. I realise there's 2 other Pokemon on the field to consider, and you could argue about double targeting or your teammate setting up or redirecting attacks or whatever else could happen in theory, but that's all unpredictable and not admissible as an argument. By itself, Talonflame doesn't check XDon. To say that is does is an oversimplified, wishful thinking concept that basically relies on surprise factor to pull it off because the XDon user doesn't know the damage calcs. It probably does work sometimes, and hey, I've never tried Talonflame in this meta. But it's not going to win a big tournament. Not against prepared players.

That's just how I see it. Be happy Talonflame got a ranking at all if you ask me. C seems perfectly suitable, I don't see how B+ can be seriously considered for it...
 
Yes but... I don't think it actually checks XDon. At least not reliably. It sets up Tailwind while Xerneas and Groudon set up on the same turn. Then you probably go first and deal 60% damage. Then you get GUARANTEED OHKO'd by a +2 Fire Punch after your recoil damage, or a +2 Moonblast. In fact an unboosted Moonblast is a guaranteed 2HKO so Xern doesn't even need to set up. I realise there's 2 other Pokemon on the field to consider, and you could argue about double targeting or your teammate setting up or redirecting attacks or whatever else could happen in theory, but that's all unpredictable and not admissible as an argument. By itself, Talonflame doesn't check XDon. To say that is does is an oversimplified, wishful thinking concept that basically relies on surprise factor to pull it off because the XDon user doesn't know the damage calcs. It probably does work sometimes, and hey, I've never tried Talonflame in this meta. But it's not going to win a big tournament. Not against prepared players.

That's just how I see it. Be happy Talonflame got a ranking at all if you ask me. C seems perfectly suitable, I don't see how B+ can be seriously considered for it...
That's not the flowchart though. You taunt the Xerneas, and unless they have Rock Slide you don't get KO'd. Then you set up tailwind and die. Meanwhile your other mon swaps out for a heavy hitter like CB Groudon and CB Don + Brave bird can KO a decent chunk of the meta, even at -1. As soon as TFlame goes down you bring in Xerneas under TW and get the Geomancy up while TW + CB boosted Groudon basically kills any Xerneas counter. I've been playing around with it on the ladder, and it's actually surprisingly good on HO teams.
 

Ace Emerald

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Yes but... I don't think it actually checks XDon. At least not reliably. It sets up Tailwind while Xerneas and Groudon set up on the same turn. Then you probably go first and deal 60% damage. Then you get GUARANTEED OHKO'd by a +2 Fire Punch after your recoil damage, or a +2 Moonblast. In fact an unboosted Moonblast is a guaranteed 2HKO so Xern doesn't even need to set up. I realise there's 2 other Pokemon on the field to consider, and you could argue about double targeting or your teammate setting up or redirecting attacks or whatever else could happen in theory, but that's all unpredictable and not admissible as an argument. By itself, Talonflame doesn't check XDon. To say that is does is an oversimplified, wishful thinking concept that basically relies on surprise factor to pull it off because the XDon user doesn't know the damage calcs. It probably does work sometimes, and hey, I've never tried Talonflame in this meta. But it's not going to win a big tournament. Not against prepared players.

That's just how I see it. Be happy Talonflame got a ranking at all if you ask me. C seems perfectly suitable, I don't see how B+ can be seriously considered for it...
Seconding everything ck49 said. Also adding that the proposal was for B- rank. Here are the other Pokemon in B- rank right now: Abomasnow, Araquanid, Dialga, Ditto, Hitmontop, Landorus-T, Palkia, Tapu Bulu, Zapdos. Talonflame fits perfects with this group. Niche Pokemon that either have some potential, or have had a small amount of success in Top Cut finishes. A bunch of those Pokemon don't have any regional finishes.
 
I’m officially bowing out of this debate. We’ll see how it goes in future events. I’m still skeptical about how good it is because your explanations don’t factor in what your opponent is doing while Talonflame is Taunting/Tailwinding. If they set up their own Tailwind, Trick Room, etc, or lead with Lele or a Fake Out user... then your strategy doesn’t really work as well. It relies on them leading Xerneas/Groudon specifically but does that mean it’s dead weight on your team if they don’t? But you all have more experience with Talonflame so I’m giving you benefit of the doubt, and perhaps it’s B- worthy after all?

However I don’t see Talonflame being better than Dialga, Tapu Bulu, Araquanid, Landorus, Zapdos, Hitmontop.... I mean Hitmontop alone is a very solid and commonly used Pokémon with actual usage at numerous events. So B- is the absolute highest it should go
 
Okay, wait, lemme get this straight: Y'all are effectively saying that talonflame needs to be moved to B or B+, and by saying that you are also saying that Talonflame is a better Tailwind setter than Whimsicott, which resides in C+ and has plethora more options?

I uh...
I don't know about that, chief.

You talk about how talonflame's job is to set up, damage something, and then die. Whimsicott does this exact job even better with moves such as endeavor (and you could make an arugment for memento, since it forces a switch)
 
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Ace Emerald

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Okay, wait, lemme get this straight: Y'all are effectively saying that talonflame needs to be moved to B or B+, and by saying that you are also saying that Talonflame is a better Tailwind setter than Whimsicott, which resides in C+ and has plethora more options?

I uh...
I don't know about that, chief.

You talk about how talonflame's job is to set up, damage something, and then die. Whimsicott does this exact job even better with moves such as endeavor (and you could make an arugment for memento, since it forces a switch)
What does Whimsicott offer against Kartana, Ferrothorn, Solgaleo, Dusk Mane, or other misc Steel type? Talonflame offers Tailwind + Taunt to beat the Xerneas mirror, and also offers Flare Blitz to cripple potential Steel counters. And LO Flare Blitz does a lot of damage in the sun, actually OHKOs standard Crobat. And while both Pokemon are pretty frail, Talonflame's typing gives it a better defensive matchup again Xerneas, Groudon, Inciniroar, and all Steel Pokemon. I think its pretty safe to say Talonflame is a more effective Pokemon than Whimsicott.
 
edit: Here's the link to wgeurts team writeup.

I’m officially bowing out of this debate. We’ll see how it goes in future events. I’m still skeptical about how good it is because your explanations don’t factor in what your opponent is doing while Talonflame is Taunting/Tailwinding. If they set up their own Tailwind, Trick Room, etc, or lead with Lele or a Fake Out user... then your strategy doesn’t really work as well.
You're taunting their setup, and probably being fast enough to set up TW next turn. It's still weak to Crobat/Tornadus/Blimp because those three can match your setup, so it's ends up being kinda dead weight, at least from my experience. But on a HO team I was bringing it every single game unless my opponent had one of those three. The flowchart for me was lead incineroar + TFlame, fake out and taunt, tailwind and uturn into either CB Don or Specs Ogre depending on the team, or Xerneas if it made more sense given their board state. Then Brave Bird to die and bring in the other one, or if they bring in Fake Out to try to stop it you can quick guard. However, that was just my team, I don't know if other teams play the same way.

Tapu Lele usually isn't an issue because your opponent will normally either attack the Talonflame or having a flying type out for you to target once you bring Groudon in. Or you just switch out, which kinda defeats the purpose but if their gameplan is to not attack talonflame you're essentially getting a free switch.


However I don’t see Talonflame being better than Dialga, Tapu Bulu, Araquanid, Landorus, Zapdos, Hitmontop.... I mean Hitmontop alone is a very solid and commonly used Pokémon with actual usage at numerous events. So B- is the absolute highest it should go
Ignoring PCs (which vary greatly in quality) Tflame has more CP than Dialga and Landorus-T, as well as abomasnow, palkia, and ditto, which are also in B-. It feels way more useful than the Pokemon around it, and B- seems about right.

Okay, wait, lemme get this straight: Y'all are effectively saying that talonflame needs to be moved to B or B+, and by saying that you are also saying that Talonflame is a better Tailwind setter than Whimsicott, which resides in C+ and has plethora more options?

I uh...
I don't know about that, chief.

You talk about how talonflame's job is to set up, damage something, and then die. Whimsicott does this exact job even better with moves such as endeavor (and you could make an arugment for memento, since it forces a switch)
Pretty sure the argument is it should be in B-. Whimsicott feels a little underrated too tbh, since prankster sunny day is a really cool niche. I'm not going to make that case since I haven't tested it, and I'm sure at times it feels like deal weight.

That being said the big reason I was testing talonflame was because it threatens grass types that are commonly used to beat Groudon/Kyogre. If you're relying on Venusaur to win the mirror match, you're in for a long day, which can't be said for any other fast TW user. Same for Ludicolo against Kyogre, although after testing that I felt like Tornadus was better in that teamslot if you have a tsareena on your team.

Speaking of which, Tornadus should probably move up quite a bit. It's currently in C- and just won a regional.

The other two Pokemon I think should move up are Pheromosa and Rayquaza. Rayquaza would obviously be exclusively paired with Kyogre, but can KO most Kyogre counters with flamethrower/arial ace. E-speed is a fantastic move on top of that. It also can support Kyogre with tailwind. I'm not 100% sold on it but it has better results than any of the Pokemon around it. I feel like C+ is appropriate for it.

Pheromosa is a Pokemon I've also seen popping up on Kyogre teams, including the one Ricardo used to top cut Frankfurt. It can outspeed Ludicolo in the rain, which is a cool niche. It also deals with other common counters such as Dialga/Ferrothorn, although losing your sash is questionable. With Tsareena/Lele everywhere you can avoid priority and while getting it requires a slow Fake Out or sacrificing something, it's not as susceptible to priority. The Tsareena pairing is particularly potent since you can feint + HJK to guarantee it comes off (90% of the time). In a meta where some of your Pokemon are going to be for exactly one matchup, Pheromosa is great at patching up the Kyogre mirror.

Finally, some Pokemon I think should drop:

Excadrill - it does literally nothing right now and has 0 CP. It's unviable.

Necrozma-DW - it's not terrible, per se, but it's outclassed in every respect by Lunala

Giratina-O - what does this thing even do? I guess you switch in on Groudon and Ogre but then you don't do anything. Maybe someone else can make a case for it not being a waste of a restricted slot?

Oranguru - gets one-shot by too much stuff to be a reliable TR setter. I guess it's not terrible once you get set up but it's only niche over Bronzong is not getting one-shot by lunala and not getting Faked out. but if you partner can get Faked Out, it's not really doing much. given that incineroar is everywhere and everyone's restricted already does a ton to it, I'm not convinced it should be used. Also it has 0 CP, which is remarkable given how many bad Pokemon have CP.

Tyranitar - unless you're AV you can't come in on Ogre, and you can't come in on groudon either way. Not to mention Xerneas bodies you as well. Also Solgaleo/DM outspeed and KO you. I'm just not sure what this is supposed to come in on, and if it does switch in it doesn't really put any offensive pressure on most things.
 
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Yes I said I was bowing out, but I just want to make the point that Whimsicott not only has Prankster, but also Helping Hand, Fake Tears and Encore (as well as Tailwind, Memento and Taunt already mentioned). As far as team support goes, it beats Talonflame hands down and is far more versatile. Yes it can’t do anything offensively to Steel types, but that’s not its role. Which we have established isn’t Talonflame’s role either (as it sets up Tailwind for hyper offense teams and dies). Yes the Fire/Flying typing can be advatangeous in certain matchups, but so can Grass/Fairy. You resist Water and can’t be Spore’d for example.

So they should at least be in the same tier, and not Talonflame higher than it.
 
So I thought it would be useful to have the CP that each Pokemon has earned next to their ranking so I compiled the information from vgcstats.com in to a spreadsheet. I also took the mean and median CP for the Pokemon in each tier and for the most part there is a downward trend between ranks as you'd hope. I also calculated the % deviation of the CP earned for each pokemon compared to the average CP earned by mons in their rank. italicised the restricteds (not sure if cosmog is restricted, I assume it is?) as competing for a restricted slot really should affect a mon's viability. On the right hand side I have reordered the table in order of CP earned, in the same order as is listed on vgcstats.com to get a better picture.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing

So at first glance the Pokemon that deviate the greatest from their average viability ranking seem to be:

Bronzong (-)
Arcanine (-)
Drifblim (-)
Heatran (+)
Raichu (-)
Tsareena (+)
Abomasnow (-)
Tapu Bulu (+)
Mewtwo (-)
Necrozma-DW (-)
Oranguru (-)
Whimsicott (+)
Zygarde (+)
Clefairy (+)
Klefki (-)
Kyurem-B (-)
Kyurem-W (-)
Lugia (-)
Nihilego (+)
Porygon-2 (-)
Togedemaru (+)
Tyranitar (-)
Excadrill (-)
Cresselia (-)
Giratina (-)
Rotom-W (-)
Scrafty (+)
Thundurus-I (-)
Tornadus-I (+)
Everything in D tier both up and down

And for mons that are unranked I just chose an arbitrary cut off point of 90 CP for mons which should be ranked somewhere which are:
Salazzle
Gengar
Aegislash
Heliolisk
Victreebel
Lumineon
Sableye
Togekiss
Blaziken
Volcarona


I think these Pokemon should be the one's that we focus on discussing. I don't necessarily agree with all of the changes I've suggested, I just think they should help direct the discussion.

The worst offenders I would say are the following:
Tornadus
Clefairy
Salazzle
Arcanine
Abomasnow
Nihilego
Scrafty
Pheromosa
Lurantis
Gengar
Aegislash
Heliolisk
Victreebel
And of course all of the ranked Pokemon that haven't earned any CP, particularly the ones in the C tier.
 
So I thought it would be useful to have the CP that each Pokemon has earned next to their ranking so I compiled the information from vgcstats.com in to a spreadsheet. I also took the mean and median CP for the Pokemon in each tier and for the most part there is a downward trend between ranks as you'd hope. I also calculated the % deviation of the CP earned for each pokemon compared to the average CP earned by mons in their rank. italicised the restricteds (not sure if cosmog is restricted, I assume it is?) as competing for a restricted slot really should affect a mon's viability. On the right hand side I have reordered the table in order of CP earned, in the same order as is listed on vgcstats.com to get a better picture.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing

So at first glance the Pokemon that deviate the greatest from their average viability ranking seem to be:

Bronzong (-)
Arcanine (-)
Drifblim (-)
Heatran (+)
Raichu (-)
Tsareena (+)
Abomasnow (-)
Tapu Bulu (+)
Mewtwo (-)
Necrozma-DW (-)
Oranguru (-)
Whimsicott (+)
Zygarde (+)
Clefairy (+)
Klefki (-)
Kyurem-B (-)
Kyurem-W (-)
Lugia (-)
Nihilego (+)
Porygon-2 (-)
Togedemaru (+)
Tyranitar (-)
Excadrill (-)
Cresselia (-)
Giratina (-)
Rotom-W (-)
Scrafty (+)
Thundurus-I (-)
Tornadus-I (+)
Everything in D tier both up and down

And for mons that are unranked I just chose an arbitrary cut off point of 90 CP for mons which should be ranked somewhere which are:
Salazzle
Gengar
Aegislash
Heliolisk
Victreebel
Lumineon
Sableye
Togekiss
Blaziken
Volcarona


I think these Pokemon should be the one's that we focus on discussing. I don't necessarily agree with all of the changes I've suggested, I just think they should help direct the discussion.

The worst offenders I would say are the following:
Tornadus
Clefairy
Salazzle
Arcanine
Abomasnow
Nihilego
Scrafty
Pheromosa
Lurantis
Gengar
Aegislash
Heliolisk
Victreebel
And of course all of the ranked Pokemon that haven't earned any CP, particularly the ones in the C tier.
I like your work. I've seen a lot of Nihilego, Tornadus, Salazzle and Pheromosa usage recently. And I've also thrown my support behind Gengar and Victreebel (see the Underrated Sets thread in this forum).

I also think Heatran should move up.
 

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