Resource VGC 2019 Viability Rankings [Moon Series Update]

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
edit: Here's the link to wgeurts team writeup.



You're taunting their setup, and probably being fast enough to set up TW next turn. It's still weak to Crobat/Tornadus/Blimp because those three can match your setup, so it's ends up being kinda dead weight, at least from my experience. But on a HO team I was bringing it every single game unless my opponent had one of those three. The flowchart for me was lead incineroar + TFlame, fake out and taunt, tailwind and uturn into either CB Don or Specs Ogre depending on the team, or Xerneas if it made more sense given their board state. Then Brave Bird to die and bring in the other one, or if they bring in Fake Out to try to stop it you can quick guard. However, that was just my team, I don't know if other teams play the same way.

Tapu Lele usually isn't an issue because your opponent will normally either attack the Talonflame or having a flying type out for you to target once you bring Groudon in. Or you just switch out, which kinda defeats the purpose but if their gameplan is to not attack talonflame you're essentially getting a free switch.




Ignoring PCs (which vary greatly in quality) Tflame has more CP than Dialga and Landorus-T, as well as abomasnow, palkia, and ditto, which are also in B-. It feels way more useful than the Pokemon around it, and B- seems about right.



Pretty sure the argument is it should be in B-. Whimsicott feels a little underrated too tbh, since prankster sunny day is a really cool niche. I'm not going to make that case since I haven't tested it, and I'm sure at times it feels like deal weight.

That being said the big reason I was testing talonflame was because it threatens grass types that are commonly used to beat Groudon/Kyogre. If you're relying on Venusaur to win the mirror match, you're in for a long day, which can't be said for any other fast TW user. Same for Ludicolo against Kyogre, although after testing that I felt like Tornadus was better in that teamslot if you have a tsareena on your team.

Speaking of which, Tornadus should probably move up quite a bit. It's currently in C- and just won a regional.

The other two Pokemon I think should move up are Pheromosa and Rayquaza. Rayquaza would obviously be exclusively paired with Kyogre, but can KO most Kyogre counters with flamethrower/arial ace. E-speed is a fantastic move on top of that. It also can support Kyogre with tailwind. I'm not 100% sold on it but it has better results than any of the Pokemon around it. I feel like C+ is appropriate for it.

Pheromosa is a Pokemon I've also seen popping up on Kyogre teams, including the one Ricardo used to top cut Frankfurt. It can outspeed Ludicolo in the rain, which is a cool niche. It also deals with other common counters such as Dialga/Ferrothorn, although losing your sash is questionable. With Tsareena/Lele everywhere you can avoid priority and while getting it requires a slow Fake Out or sacrificing something, it's not as susceptible to priority. The Tsareena pairing is particularly potent since you can feint + HJK to guarantee it comes off (90% of the time). In a meta where some of your Pokemon are going to be for exactly one matchup, Pheromosa is great at patching up the Kyogre mirror.

Finally, some Pokemon I think should drop:

Excadrill - it does literally nothing right now and has 0 CP. It's unviable.

Necrozma-DW - it's not terrible, per se, but it's outclassed in every respect by Lunala

Giratina-O - what does this thing even do? I guess you switch in on Groudon and Ogre but then you don't do anything. Maybe someone else can make a case for it not being a waste of a restricted slot?

Oranguru - gets one-shot by too much stuff to be a reliable TR setter. I guess it's not terrible once you get set up but it's only niche over Bronzong is not getting one-shot by lunala and not getting Faked out. but if you partner can get Faked Out, it's not really doing much. given that incineroar is everywhere and everyone's restricted already does a ton to it, I'm not convinced it should be used. Also it has 0 CP, which is remarkable given how many bad Pokemon have CP.

Tyranitar - unless you're AV you can't come in on Ogre, and you can't come in on groudon either way. Not to mention Xerneas bodies you as well. Also Solgaleo/DM outspeed and KO you. I'm just not sure what this is supposed to come in on, and if it does switch in it doesn't really put any offensive pressure on most things.

I too have seen a lot of Phero and Ray, enough to entirely relate to these remarks. I can agree with everything else except for my true love, Giratina-O.

Giratina-O is absolutely slept on as an anti meta threat. I am not at a point where I will be revealing my calculations with Giratina-o but I can confirm as the only restricted I've used on all of my teams this season, it has a role that has yet to be abused (which of course I intend to do >:))

So I thought it would be useful to have the CP that each Pokemon has earned next to their ranking so I compiled the information from vgcstats.com in to a spreadsheet. I also took the mean and median CP for the Pokemon in each tier and for the most part there is a downward trend between ranks as you'd hope. I also calculated the % deviation of the CP earned for each pokemon compared to the average CP earned by mons in their rank. italicised the restricteds (not sure if cosmog is restricted, I assume it is?) as competing for a restricted slot really should affect a mon's viability. On the right hand side I have reordered the table in order of CP earned, in the same order as is listed on vgcstats.com to get a better picture.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing

So at first glance the Pokemon that deviate the greatest from their average viability ranking seem to be:

Bronzong (-)
Arcanine (-)
Drifblim (-)
Heatran (+)
Raichu (-)
Tsareena (+)
Abomasnow (-)
Tapu Bulu (+)
Mewtwo (-)
Necrozma-DW (-)
Oranguru (-)
Whimsicott (+)
Zygarde (+)
Clefairy (+)
Klefki (-)
Kyurem-B (-)
Kyurem-W (-)
Lugia (-)
Nihilego (+)
Porygon-2 (-)
Togedemaru (+)
Tyranitar (-)
Excadrill (-)
Cresselia (-)
Giratina (-)
Rotom-W (-)
Scrafty (+)
Thundurus-I (-)
Tornadus-I (+)
Everything in D tier both up and down

And for mons that are unranked I just chose an arbitrary cut off point of 90 CP for mons which should be ranked somewhere which are:
Salazzle
Gengar
Aegislash
Heliolisk
Victreebel
Lumineon
Sableye
Togekiss
Blaziken
Volcarona


I think these Pokemon should be the one's that we focus on discussing. I don't necessarily agree with all of the changes I've suggested, I just think they should help direct the discussion.

The worst offenders I would say are the following:
Tornadus
Clefairy
Salazzle
Arcanine
Abomasnow
Nihilego
Scrafty
Pheromosa
Lurantis
Gengar
Aegislash
Heliolisk
Victreebel
And of course all of the ranked Pokemon that haven't earned any CP, particularly the ones in the C tier.
I also greatly appreciate seeing this; this helps me to do the thing I do on an almost bi weekly basis by eye and puts it into a much cleaner format. I will be going through this tomorrow morning October 11th, to do a large update. If nobody has responded by this post I will simply update through this one. That chart is so thorough and is very impressive so many thanks. One thing to note is currently the list orders based on Tiers, than Alphabetically whereas in your list it shows a variance as a result of their name placing within the list. I can reorganize the lists to reflect that style of organization but I think generally it's been fine alphabetically. Anyone say otherwise?
 
I'm not quite sure what you mean when it comes to the ordering. The list on the left should be the same exact order as used in your post. The one on the right is just literally the same order as vgcstats, and that is just to show visually how your list compares to theirs. So seeing blue and purple (indicating they are ranked low on your list) so high on their list suggests a change in rank is probably warranted. I certainly see nothing wrong with ordering them by rank, then alphabetically how you have done already and I believe every other VR thread has done, I think it's easier on the eyes that way. And also the variance is not calculated by a result of their ordering. It's simply calculated by the taking difference between the CP the individual Pokemon earned and the mean CP earned by all the Pokemon within its tier and dividing it by that mean. The order within those tiers makes no difference to that calculation.

I also need to point out that all of this will be outdated after any rank changes as well as changes in tournament usage. I'll need to update the CP earned statistics, reorder the Pokemon by rank and redo the means and variances.

Also I would try to avoid using this too heavily. We should kind of try to avoid creating a list that is exactly the same as vgcstats.com's, otherwise what's the point, people could just use theirs.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
I think keeping VR pokemon sorted by name is the best way to do it, because otherwise we get down to arguing about what order they should be in instead of moving things up and down tiers.
I agree 100% with both your statement and the one prior. This is not supposed to be an exact replica of VGCstats. VGCstats will not and hasn't been my only source of tiering material as I understand prof. will not always be able to update it; just as I won't always be exactly following events to the day. I have some other resources i've been shuffling through to compile some changes for this week. I think most changes you'll see below aren't too dramatic and will be more tidying up the list.
It's amazing but it feels like this meta has been around a lot longer but looking at the CP counts it's extremely divided still. This does make it hard to remove certain mons (Lugia, Kyurem-B) as people experiment less early on in the meta.

See below:


The big one. Here she is.

Xerneas A+ --> S-

The CP justifies it. The description justifies it. Usage, success, everything justifies it going up. It is not quite at the level Cini is at but it is DEFINITELY more successfully used than any other restricted legendary.

Tapu Lele A- --> A

Lots of high ranking usage, Regional success throughout.

Bronzong A- --> B

It's good, but not A good quite yet. It is on an upward trend and it may very well be back to A soon but it isn't in line with its actual stats.

Tapu Fini B+ --> A-

Arcanine B --> C+

Drifblim B --> B-

Raichu B --> B-

Tornadus C- --> B

Scrafty C- --> B-

(lol)

Nihilego C --> B-

Salazzle UR --> B-

Abomasnow B- --> D

Araquanid B- --> C+

Landorus-T B- --> C+

Palkia B- --> C+

Dialga B- --> C

Gothitelle C- --> C+

Rayquaza C- --> C+

Gengar UR --> C+

Giratina-O C+ --> C-

Celesteela C+ --> C

Cherrim C+ --> D

Gastrodon C+ --> C-

Mewtwo C+ --> C

Necrozma-Dawn Wings C+ --> D

Oranguru C+ --> UR

Snorlax C+ --> UR

Suicune C+ --> C

Clefairy C --> B-

Klefki C --> D

Kyurem-B C --> D

Kyurem-W C --> C-

Lugia C --> C-

Porygon2 C --> UR

Talonflame C --> C-

Togedemaru C --> B-

Tyranitar C --> UR

Thundurus C- --> UR

Excadrill C- --> UR

Cresselia C- --> UR

Giratina C- --> D

Lurantis D --> C

Victreebell UR --> C

Accelgor D --> UR

Lucario D --> UR

Lilligant D --> UR

Mienshao D --> UR

Mimikyu D --> UR

Pheromosa D --> C+

Staraptor D --> UR

Volcarona UR --> C-

Lumineon UR --> D

Sableye UR --> D

Togekiss UR --> D

Aegislash UR --> C

Cosmog UR --> Meme

(get in the bag)

Ninetales-A UR --> D

Naganadel UR --> C-


I may have missed some changes but a lot are these are based on early evaluations and predictions that fell through/ mons that got CP that weren't ranked. Some will not exactly match their CP based on showdown usage to match, and whether their CP was just one person using it or several people. I do definitely value multiple wins from different sources rather than 1 big win for one person. (sorry nebby, lumineon). Please discuss these changes in particular and let me know what was done right and what needs work!

Thanks again!

-Neth
 
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I have updated the sheet that I made with the rank changes. The difference between the mean and the median averages of the CP earned within the tiers are much closer now, suggesting there are far fewer extreme cases.

I do want to mention that the changes for Togedemaru and Victreebel don't seem to have been made yet.

I do think Heliolisk needs to be put on the list somewhere considering it has earned more CP than anything in both the D and C+ tiers. I really don't think it's a solid mon, and considering the majority of the CP were earned in PCs and not regionals, with only one regional finish I think that needs to be taken in to consideration. That being said, it still deserves to be ranked somewhere. Considering I just went through all the PC top cuts to find the ones with Heliolisk I'll just put them here for reference:

9/15/2018 - Barcelona, Spain
8) Aaron Ventura

9/23/2018 - , El Salvador
2) Pablo Aldana (for some reason he has two teams listed?)

10/1/2018 - , Guatemala 2
4) Mario Hernandez


The teams of the other players in top cut seem relatively solid compared to a lot of PC cutting teams, but I'm not sure that can be a good indicator of the calibre of player they were against to get their cut.

And here's the link to the new sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
I have updated the sheet that I made with the rank changes. The difference between the mean and the median averages of the CP earned within the tiers are much closer now, suggesting there are far fewer extreme cases.

I do want to mention that the changes for Togedemaru and Victreebel don't seem to have been made yet.

I do think Heliolisk needs to be put on the list somewhere considering it has earned more CP than anything in both the D and C+ tiers. I really don't think it's a solid mon, and considering the majority of the CP were earned in PCs and not regionals, with only one regional finish I think that needs to be taken in to consideration. That being said, it still deserves to be ranked somewhere. Considering I just went through all the PC top cuts to find the ones with Heliolisk I'll just put them here for reference:

9/15/2018 - Barcelona, Spain
8) Aaron Ventura

9/23/2018 - , El Salvador
2) Pablo Aldana (for some reason he has two teams listed?)

10/1/2018 - , Guatemala 2
4) Mario Hernandez


The teams of the other players in top cut seem relatively solid compared to a lot of PC cutting teams, but I'm not sure that can be a good indicator of the calibre of player they were against to get their cut.

And here's the link to the new sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you for doing this, I've updated the missed changes and I think Heliolisk should be ranked as well. For the sake of discussion before I just add it in, anyone else have any insight on Heliolisk? I have zero experience using it and I'll only be judging based off of its placing. I've honestly never ever seen it.

Discuss!
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Ok so after seeing the Talonflame discussion on here, I decided to try it myself, and it’s actually way better than I thought it would be.

As a partner for Xerneas, it’s so useful. It protects it from Fake Out, can often dispose of Kartana and Ferrothorn without issue, and also can help in the Ludicolo matchup as well. I’ve been using it on a XernOrge team and it’s definitely pulling it’s weight. Tailwind + Scarf Orge is surprisingly helpful as a last-ditched strategy to beat a Xerneas that has already set up. It’s also just so good at eliminating the threats to Ogre and Xern, and can easily be EVd to live attacks from +2 Xern.

Definitely a lot better than I thought it would be. I’d move it up for sure (it’s easily a lot better than Shiftry for example).
 
I think, that Empoleon should be ranked, because it is pretty good Xerneas counter and an okay Ogre check. Thanks to his hidden ability defiant, it can go physical to punish Incineroar and intimidate spam.
 
I think, that Empoleon should be ranked, because it is pretty good Xerneas counter and an okay Ogre check. Thanks to his hidden ability defiant, it can go physical to punish Incineroar and intimidate spam.
How does empoleon check ogre? It literally only has access HP Grass and HP electric as supereffective moves and those aren't even gonna do squat. In addition to this, a large percentage of ogre run scarf, and those ogre also happen to run thunder, a combination which completely bodies empoleon. Hell, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it 2hkos at +1 using EQ against ogre (but I don't have access to calc at moment). And EQ IS it's only option as ogre resists BOTH its STABS.

Let's talk about Xern, can we talk about Xern?
Now, let me remind you that I'm in a position without access to calc at this point (damn web filters) but if I were a betting man (and I play mons, so you know I am) I'd assume that with full SPA investment, flashcannon is a 2hko or a 3hko against most Xern after geomancy. Now, empoleon has some okay spdef, but in order to invest in that, you have to either
a) not invest in HP and have your bulk be lessened
or
b) not invest in SpA and opt for a more bulky build, and at the same time making your special attack not nearly where it needs to be to even 2hko.

"Overloud, just run physical empoleon and hope they bring kitty or lando."

No, that's a bad argument because if you know something's going to be defiant, then you're most likely not to switch an intimidator into it. Also, in that situation, you're boned regardless. Kitty gets a fakeout/you have to protect, Xern sets up. You're then forced to then target down Xern as it's the much bigger threat, and then that leaves kitty open to either flareblitz or lowkick you, and xern d-gleams and even if you're still alive after that, you're not gonna live that next turn. You might've done a chunk to Xern, but not enough to kill in the majority of scenarios.

And, in conclusion, there's no reason to run a water type that isn't Ogre in this meta
(maybe suicune, but there are better tailwind setters out there).

(and I'd love to know how much CP empoleon has before we rank it as well, if someone could inform me on that).
 

Ace Emerald

Minimal effort with maximum profit
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
How does empoleon check ogre? It literally only has access HP Grass and HP electric as supereffective moves and those aren't even gonna do squat. In addition to this, a large percentage of ogre run scarf, and those ogre also happen to run thunder, a combination which completely bodies empoleon. Hell, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it 2hkos at +1 using EQ against ogre (but I don't have access to calc at moment). And EQ IS it's only option as ogre resists BOTH its STABS.

Let's talk about Xern, can we talk about Xern?
Now, let me remind you that I'm in a position without access to calc at this point (damn web filters) but if I were a betting man (and I play mons, so you know I am) I'd assume that with full SPA investment, flashcannon is a 2hko or a 3hko against most Xern after geomancy. Now, empoleon has some okay spdef, but in order to invest in that, you have to either
a) not invest in HP and have your bulk be lessened
or
b) not invest in SpA and opt for a more bulky build, and at the same time making your special attack not nearly where it needs to be to even 2hko.

"Overloud, just run physical empoleon and hope they bring kitty or lando."

No, that's a bad argument because if you know something's going to be defiant, then you're most likely not to switch an intimidator into it. Also, in that situation, you're boned regardless. Kitty gets a fakeout/you have to protect, Xern sets up. You're then forced to then target down Xern as it's the much bigger threat, and then that leaves kitty open to either flareblitz or lowkick you, and xern d-gleams and even if you're still alive after that, you're not gonna live that next turn. You might've done a chunk to Xern, but not enough to kill in the majority of scenarios.

And, in conclusion, there's no reason to run a water type that isn't Ogre in this meta
(maybe suicune, but there are better tailwind setters out there).

(and I'd love to know how much CP empoleon has before we rank it as well, if someone could inform me on that).
To be fair, Empoleon counters Xern via Roar, not KO. But yeah, I don't see how it takes on Ogre (though +1 Liquidation does threaten a 3HKO vs Ogre which was better than I expected). VGC stats has current CP at basically nothing (28 CP), so it'd be nice to see a higher placing or high profile team before ranking it.
 
I'm not disagreeing with the core sentiment here, but I just want to clear up some inaccuracies in your post.

Firstly, Empoleon gets Grass Knot which does 2HKO no bulk Kyogre with a bit of investment.
60+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 88-104 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Naturally you'd assume you wouldn't run this on a physical set, and it can't really afford to run a mixed set comfortably without compromising on bulk or the ability to speed creep Incineroar. On a physical set there would be no reason to run EQ, as it doesn't hit anything relevant that its stab options don't already hit for at least neutral, other than croak which bodies you anyway. If you really wanted a filler physical coverage move, I guess Knock Off would be a better option. But I digress, basically EQ Empoleon wouldn't be a thing, so pointless to mention it.

In terms of checking Xerneas (or sorry, "countering" Xerneas), I'm assuming the person was getting at resisting the moonblast/gleam and Roaring it out. If this is the case it's definitely a better solution than just wittling away at it with Flash Cannon, but Roar techs are pretty common and Xerneas teams are likely to play around that possibility. Even if 1v1, Empoleon is able to consistently get rid of Xerneas' boosts, it needs to worry about its partner going for a fast Taunt (e.g. one of the Tapus), redirection (e.g. Smeargle, Clefairy, Amoonguss) or simply KOing it with a super effective attack (e.g. Groudon, Koko) or the combination of a strong neutral attack and a +2 Moonblast (e.g. specs Lunala). So yeah, I wouldn't say Empoleon is a particularly consistent check to Xerneas, not to mention a counter.

But just some minor things that 0verloud said, Incineroar never runs Low Kick. It always has U-turn or Roar in the fourth slot, very occasionally Snarl. It just doesn't have room for Low Kick. And as for no other waters being worth running...Ludi and Fini are ranked A and A- for a reason. Araquanid and Palkia also have their niches but yeah.

(Btw just noticing I've repeated what others have already said, I wrote this before the others posted :P )

And finally, I have updated the google sheet. I have formatted it to highlight mons who's deviation from the mean is +/- 40%
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing
 
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Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
Alright everyone. Not a whole lot of movement that I see justifying an immediate change but I see some great conversation pieces:

Zygarde C+ --> B-/B?

A steep incline of uses tells me people finally realized what Zygarde can do in this metagame. Is this just new toy syndrome or is this viable?

Tornadus B --> B+?

Again, a lot of top cut performance recently and has a great niche in checking most anti rain checks/counters.

Ho-oh B+ --> B?

Groudon teams have adapted and a rise in Stakataka usage is making it harder to live. As well as more Tapu Koko becoming physical?

If there's any other discussion points that are already on this list, lets talk about them.

I'd also like to add that from November 5th to November 25th I will be entirely away from the internet, enjoying Japan for vacation! This thread will not be updated during that time but will be updated immediately before and immediately after. This disclaimer will be posted on the main header as well but feel free to post any findings you find during this time that I am away.

Thanks everyone!

Neth
 
I'm not disagreeing with the core sentiment here, but I just want to clear up some inaccuracies in your post.

Firstly, Empoleon gets Grass Knot which does 2HKO no bulk Kyogre with a bit of investment.
60+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 88-104 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Naturally you'd assume you wouldn't run this on a physical set, and it can't really afford to run a mixed set comfortably without compromising on bulk or the ability to speed creep Incineroar. On a physical set there would be no reason to run EQ, as it doesn't hit anything relevant that its stab options don't already hit for at least neutral, other than croak which bodies you anyway. If you really wanted a filler physical coverage move, I guess Knock Off would be a better option. But I digress, basically EQ Empoleon wouldn't be a thing, so pointless to mention it.

In terms of checking Xerneas (or sorry, "countering" Xerneas), I'm assuming the person was getting at resisting the moonblast/gleam and Roaring it out. If this is the case it's definitely a better solution than just wittling away at it with Flash Cannon, but Roar techs are pretty common and Xerneas teams are likely to play around that possibility. Even if 1v1, Empoleon is able to consistently get rid of Xerneas' boosts, it needs to worry about its partner going for a fast Taunt (e.g. one of the Tapus), redirection (e.g. Smeargle, Clefairy, Amoonguss) or simply KOing it with a super effective attack (e.g. Groudon, Koko) or the combination of a strong neutral attack and a +2 Moonblast (e.g. specs Lunala). So yeah, I wouldn't say Empoleon is a particularly consistent check to Xerneas, not to mention a counter.

But just some minor things that 0verloud said, Incineroar never runs Low Kick. It always has U-turn or Roar in the fourth slot, very occasionally Snarl. It just doesn't have room for Low Kick. And as for no other waters being worth running...Ludi and Fini are ranked A and A- for a reason. Araquanid and Palkia also have their niches but yeah.

(Btw just noticing I've repeated what others have already said, I wrote this before the others posted :P )

And finally, I have updated the google sheet. I have formatted it to highlight mons who's deviation from the mean is +/- 40%
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing
This sounds really dumb, but I honestly forgot it got roar, and I see how that makes it much better now. Didn't even know it got grass knot, so thank you for correcting me there. As for low kick, I've been using an old ass kitty spread, so that's why i said that. But thank you for clarifying that up. Regardless, I still don't think it should be ranked.
 
Alright everyone. Not a whole lot of movement that I see justifying an immediate change but I see some great conversation pieces:

Zygarde C+ --> B-/B?

A steep incline of uses tells me people finally realized what Zygarde can do in this metagame. Is this just new toy syndrome or is this viable?

Tornadus B --> B+?

Again, a lot of top cut performance recently and has a great niche in checking most anti rain checks/counters.

Ho-oh B+ --> B?

Groudon teams have adapted and a rise in Stakataka usage is making it harder to live. As well as more Tapu Koko becoming physical?

If there's any other discussion points that are already on this list, lets talk about them.

I'd also like to add that from November 5th to November 25th I will be entirely away from the internet, enjoying Japan for vacation! This thread will not be updated during that time but will be updated immediately before and immediately after. This disclaimer will be posted on the main header as well but feel free to post any findings you find during this time that I am away.

Thanks everyone!

Neth
I agree with all of these changes. I would say B- for Zygarde, mostly due to the usage and the fact that I don't think it has been used all that much outside of the Solgaleo/Zygarde/Fini/Incineroar/Toxicroak/Venusaur squad and a much less used squad I saw a bit on showdown of Groudon/Zygarde/Fini/Venu/Kartana/Stakataka. Clearly it can work very well but it really does require a lot of building around, and unexpected Roars can really set you back a couple of turns.

Togedemaru really needs to be moved down to C+/C. Don't think it's seen any use since it rose.

Togekiss and Sableye deserve a rise to at least C-, probably C for Sableye.

I've been testing Scizor recently seeing its usage an it's pretty good in certain matchups. It's nice piece of mind having Scizor in the back late game considering even intimidated it does over 50% to no bulk Xerneas, and on the hyper offensive teams that it's featured in getting that prior damage is pretty easy. Then again, it's only top cut 3 times with two of them being variants of the same team. Still I think it deserves a C- rank at least.

And btw the google sheet is up to date.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DZY4bKpqizeLjI9ZwuMUUYo4gp5vLstx2nCBVaPkKh8/edit?usp=sharing
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I don’t really like the idea of dropping Ho-oh, Groudon only threatens it by locking itself into a rock move (I don’t like rock coverage on non choice sets, I’d rather have sub or SD or Stomping Tantrum) and the sun boosts its Sacred Fire. Stackataka beats it, but only if it has a rock move and not Wide Guard (which, to be fair, is not uncommon). It’s also just not that hard to remove, or protect yourself with a Wide Guard of your own.

Beyond all of that though, it consistently top cuts bigger events, which I think says something about its viability.
 
I think Zygarde should move up to B or even B+. It's really good, topped Portland and Memphis, won multiple MSSs (Chicago, Minneapolis, probably others), and has topped the showdown ladder as well. It's everywhere on showdown above 1600. It fits a weird place in the viability rankings since it's not really a great mon on its own but Fini + Zygarde can beat pretty much any common team that doesn't have Xerneas/Roar/Haze on it's own if you play it right. The latter two things are relatively easy to play around and you end up stacking your team against the former so even if they bring Xern you probably beat it since you have 3 Xern counters.

I think Lunala moves up to A by nature of winning Memphis, getting 2nd place at Memphis + Portland, and also being the key to the fling team that was the flavor of the week for a while.

I think Ho-oh is fine where it's at. If it gets burns it can 1v4 teams that don't have Ogre. It's better than Dusk Mane and more versatile that Zygarde/Solgaleo - it's cut events next to Zygarde, Ogre, and Xerneas, and honestly I'm shocked it hasn't cut next to Groudon or Yveltal since I think both those combos have potential.

Also this is probably irrelevent but Torracat should fall into D. Fast FO, fast uturn, and can take a Xern moonblast and roar it out. Not a great Pokemon by any means but it's got something of a niche.
 

Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
And I've returned! Time for an update. Not much to change, but there is definitely some smaller movement. Here's the changes:


Kartana A --> A+

Ho-Oh B+ --> B

Tornadus B --> B+

Tsareena B --> B+

Drifblim B- --> C+

Scrafty B- --> C+

Zapdos B- --> C+

Togedemaru B- --> C (again, good in theory, unsuccessful in practice)

Zygarde C+ --> B-

A larger update will follow after Roanoke! Discuss!
 
Lunala should definitely move up to A and Yveltal should probably drop to A-. The former won Brazil, Memphis, and probably should have won Portland too if not for an unlucky confusion.

I've seen a lot less smeargle, probably related to the rise in Koko/Fini. I'd drop it to B+.

Bulu should drop to C+ by nature of being non-existent.

I think recent results from Brazil show that Talonflame (Angel Miranda, Nick Navarre), Moltres (Paul Ruiz), and Volcorona (Melvin Keh) should move up to C, if not higher. I know I've seen a lot more volc recently but that might be more of a local meta shift.

As I pointed out in the post two posts above, Torracat is worth ranking, even if it's just D. It did just cut internats.
 

PikachuVincent

Banned deucer.
Wynaut UR-Meme
Why?
Wynaut?
Raichu A UR-D
It offers a fast, but not very powerful fake out. It also can work with both Lele and Koko. Koko is recommended for Surge and Lele provides power to it's Psychic. I can see it work in D/C- RN but I'm still testing
 
Sorry just wondering, wouldn't psychic terrain block fake out from Raichu-A? I believe that Raichu's niche would be in it's untouchable speed tier, and you would just need koko for that.

Edit: Yeah ok the pun was really neat
 
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Netherious

formerly Shivershaft
is a Pre-Contributor
Hi all! I've got some interesting movements to make tonight! Based on recent usage and success ratios, The biggest move will be dropping Xerneas down to A and moving some others around to show the current metagame a little better. Please see the below changes and feel free to nominate/discuss these changes:

Xerneas S- --> A+

Groudon A+ --> A

Ludicolo A --> A-

Yveltal A --> A-

Lunalalalala A- --> A

Tornadus B+ --> A-

Tsareena B+ --> A-

Toxicroak B+ --> A (Thank Ashton/Jeremy for the CP on this bad boy absolutely skyrocketing, also it has only gotten better as the meta has gone on..)

Ho-Oh B --> B+

Solgaleo B --> B+

Nihilego B- --> B

That's it for now! Open to any other suggestions as always! We will be transitioning soon to a moon series viability which will stay in this thread but will slowly shift as we see the metagame change!

Thanks all!

Netherious

Talonflame C- --> B-
 

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