Project Victim of the Week

Level 56

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Chansey (Counter)
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Chansey @ Evolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Heal bell

Chansey is very solid counter to Thundurus-Therian as it is blessed with great special bulk + HP and with access to Evolite, it can easily deal with Thundurus-Therian. None of Thundurus-Therian's moves do big damage to Chansey, while Chansey can just damage it with Seismic Toss, making Chansey a solid counter.
 
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Counter


Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

SDef Fabio or Mega Ampharos is a fantastic counter to Agility Thund-T as it avoids the 2HKO from any of Thund-T's moves even after rocks, and with RestTalk, Fabio can recover off any damage taken. It then retaliates with one of its STABs, both of which 2HKO (Dragon Pulse 2HKOs without rocks or a LO hit unlike Volt Switch). p.s Mold Breaker ignores Volt Absorb.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 38-45 (9.9 - 11.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 138-162 (36 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 
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Name : Raikou
Status: Check




Raikou @ Assault Vest
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
- Shadow Ball

Raikou can switch in on any move except Focus Blast and 2HKO Thundurus with Hidden Power Ice. If Thundurus-T doesn't hold a Life Orb, Raikou avoids the 2HKO from any move from Thundurus-T.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 134-159 (41.7 - 49.5%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 75-90 (23.3 - 28%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 103-122 (32 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 58-69 (18 - 21.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 146-174 (48.8 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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SpDef Hippowdon as a Counter


Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Toxic

SpDef Hippowdon isn't 2HKOed by any move from Thundurus-T while it simply Slacks Off its health back and Toxic/LO stall it to death. However, if Thundurus-T manages to hit two max rolls with Focus Blast in a row or two of the best rolls in a row with HP Ice after Hippowdon switches into SR, Hippowdon will be KOed, but the chances of this happening are less than those of a crit, so I won't take that into account (and that's if Thundurus-T is even carrying LO). Also, Hippowdon doesn't care of Agility since it's already pretty darn slow. I guess Hippowdon could run Rock Slide to 2HKO Thundurus-T, but I prefer using Toxic on SpDef variants.
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 134-160 (31.9 - 38%) -- 33% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (0.4% chance to 2HKO after SR)
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 179-213 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (2.3% chance to 2HKO after SR)
 
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Swampert @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

SpeDef Mega-Swampert is unrated. It can take on Kyurem-B, Weavile and our victim of the weak Thundurus-T. It takes nothing to Thundurus-T s'attacks.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Swampert: 136-161 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Swampert: 103-122 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

8 Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Albacore

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Hard Check


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Body Slam / Toxic
- Wish
- Protect

Can swicth in on Modest LO Thunderbolt and proceed to stall Thundurus-T out, unless it gets paralyzed by Thunderbolt or a SpD drop from Focus Blast :

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 168-199 (41.5 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If Thundy is LO, Jirachi can just keep spamming Wish+Protect until it goes down from LO recoil. If Thundy is Leftovers, can spam Body Slam. Can even run Toxic to beat it more reliably.
 

(check)

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower

nite is a fine check to thundy-t, as it can switch into agility, survive the following attack (even HP Ice) and destroy it with outrage. if thundy-t has HP Flying instead, it can also switch into Focus Blast, then survive a Thunderbolt and OHKO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 50-59 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 203-239 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 444-523 (148.4 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Check

Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear
- Knock Off/Superpower

A very underrated wallbreaker in Banded mamoswine which can 2hko most of the meta. Mamo can use priority ice shard to pick off thunderus-T most of the time. eq for stab, icicle crash is more consistent and can flinch, but spear is 100% accuracy and can do more if it hits enough and breaks through subs. Knock off and superpower hits rotom-w hard. Basically don't switch in focus blast and you win. A couple hp flying will kill you also.


Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. Mamoswine: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 230-270 (63.8 - 75%)
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 177-208 (49.1 - 57.7%)
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 59-70 (16.3 - 19.4%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 77-91 (21.3 - 25.2%)

In return

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 288-342 (96.6 - 114.7%)
 
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Nominating Meloetta as a Counter


Meloetta @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

With an Assault Vest, Meloetta laughs at anything Thundurus-T can do to it. Maximum Speed investment and Timid Nature allows Meloetta to outspeed and 2HKO Thundurus-T. Other coverage moves are standard.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 122-146 (35.7 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 94-112 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 177-208 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

(check)

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower

nite is a fine check to thundy-t, as it can switch into agility, survive the following attack (even HP Ice) and destroy it with outrage. if thundy-t has HP Flying instead, it can also switch into Focus Blast, then survive a Thunderbolt and OHKO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 50-59 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 203-239 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 444-523 (148.4 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That is a very situational check because it does not factor in Stealth Rock, which is more often than not, set on the field. If Stealth Rock is set, than Dragonite can no longer check it, as HP Ice has a good chance to OHKO and Thunderbolt a notable enough chance to OHKO:

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 227-269 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
That is a very situational check because it does not factor in Stealth Rock, which is more often than not, set on the field. If Stealth Rock is set, than Dragonite can no longer check it, as HP Ice has a good chance to OHKO and Thunderbolt a notable enough chance to OHKO:

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 227-269 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
if it's set up only on nite's side then yeah. however assuming it's set up on both sides, nite can still switch into focus miss and OHKO with espeed after one round of LO recoil:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 198-233 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
if it's set up only on nite's side then yeah. however assuming it's set up on both sides, nite can still switch into focus miss and OHKO with espeed after one round of LO recoil:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 198-233 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No Thundurus-T is going to stay in on Dragonite, since almost all Dragonite carry Extreme Speed. They would switch out almost immediately to another Pokemon.
 
Counter
Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 220 SpD
Calm Nature
- Moonlight
- Psychic
- Ice Beam / Skill Swap
- Thunder Wave / Toxic

Cresselia's mixed bulk is simply too massive that it just takes an attack and shrug it off. Life Orb Gengar's Shadow Ball cannot even 2HKO most of the time Life Orb Thunderbolt is only managing a 4HKO on Cress while Cress can easily heal back with Moonlight. Psychic or Ice Beam each hits pretty hard in return, Ice Beam guaranteeing a 2HKO after LO recoil, whereas Psychic can KO in 3. Skill Swap is a huge asset Cress has to defeat common problems to stall like Sableye, Diancie, Clefable, Reuniclus etc.
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Cresselia: 140-165 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 124-148 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 93-111 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- 79.4% chance to 3HKO
 
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Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Careful Nature
- Ice Punch
- Recover
- Toxic
- Scald/Protect

Nominating the quag god as a Hard Check/Counter
Immunity to electric type moves is a big problem for Thunderus-T, knocking off its strongest STAB and leaving it with Focus Miss and Hidden Power Ice/Flying, all of which Quagsire can just recover stall and throw back a toxic with ease. Even if Thunderus-T decides to keep firing Focus Blasts, Quagsire can just eat them up as the Life Orb wears down Thunderus-T's HP or even PP stall the Focus Blast. The Nasty Plot variants of Thunderus-T aren't even an issue since Quagsire comes with unaware, an extremely useful ability that basically laughs at set up moves. Below are some calcs I've put up for the match up.

Calcs
vs.

Leftovers

Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. Quagsire: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Quagsire: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Quagsire: 163-192 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Life Orb (Just toxic/recover stall)
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Quagsire: 107-126 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- 49.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Quagsire: 212-250 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs.

0 Atk Quagsire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 126-150 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
 
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Check

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Scald
- Discharge
- Confuse Ray

252+ SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 133-157 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
SpDef Mew as a counter/hard check.


Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Soft-Boiled
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off

Avoids the 2HKO from any move other than Modest LO Thunderbolt, which has a very slight chance to 2HKO from full after SR. Easily heals off any hit with Softboiled. From there you can proceed to knock off the item and burn it, and you can easily stall it out after that.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 168-199 (41.5 - 49.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
A bit off the beaten path, but:


Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 52 HP / 232 Def / 224 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Safeguard / Destiny Bond

Role: Check

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 52 HP / 224 SpD Wobbuffet: 259-305 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)

Using Wobbuffet against any setup mon requires some prediction, but if you do it right, you can either KO it back with Mirror Coat or Encore it into Agility so that something else can come in.
 

DarkNostalgia

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Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire
- Synthesis

Due to Thick Fat, Mega Venusaur is an outstanding counter to Thundurus-T as it can take its BoltBeam coverage very well, and also boasts a resistance to Focus Blast. In return, Mega Venusaur deals great damage back with Sludge Bomb, and can heal up any damage sustained with Synthesis, making it a counter. However, Mega Venusaur loses to variants carrying Hidden Power Flying. Defensive variants of Mega Venusaur check Thundurus-T better, but it is to be noted that both variants viably beat Thundurus-T.

Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 97-114 (27 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 88-104 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 260-307 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 187-222 (62.5 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Soft check


Swampert @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rain Dance


Due to Mega-Swamperts natural bulk after Mega Evolving and great typing, Swampert can come in, easily live 2 hits and KO Thundurus-T back with Ice Punch after some prior damage. Swampert can be beaten by Grass Knot Thundurus-T and can't repeately switch into it as it lacks a reliable recovery move other than Rest.

Also, Swampert can only check Leftovers variants (which is the set on the Pokemon Calculator, oops) Thanks Vinc608

Calcs:
Thundurus-T to M-Swampert:

Timid Thundurus-T:
Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. Mega Swampert: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 99-117 (27 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 78-92 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 130-154 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-T Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 412-488 (112.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Modest Thundurus-T:
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 143-169 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thundurus-T to regular Swampert (before mega evolving):
Timid Thundurus-T:

252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 155-183 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Modest Thundurus-T:
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 170-200 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO (3HKO after Mega)

M-Swampert to Thundurus-T:
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 270-318 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (100% with Stealth Rocks)

 
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Cleric Sylveon as a counter :


Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 140 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell/Toxic

The classic Wish/Protect set, this bulky Sylveon may come on any Thundurus move and immediately recover its life with multiple wishes.
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Sylveon: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If Thundurus runs Life Orb, several wishes will be necessary to get rid of thund, if this last runs leftovers, Sylveon can start attacking with Hyper Voice right after a wish.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Sylveon: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%)
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Sylveon: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%)
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
It kind of bothers me how liberally people are using the term 'hard check' in this thread. As far as definition is concerned, I dont even think 'hard check' as a term exists. In this very week, there are 2 very distinct cases where the use of the term 'hard check' doesnt seem justified. Jirachi and Sylveon take very similar percentages from Thund-T, both with semi-reliable recovery, yet the former is proposed as a 'hard check', where the latter was listed as a counter, even though both can switch into Thund-T and win 100% of the time. In the same vein, comparing Raikou and Quagsire, in a context where both can switch into any move except Focus Blast, yet the former was listed as a check, whereas the latter as 'hard check'. Ultimately what perplexes me is what fundamentally put a 'hard check' into a different classification as the rest?

At the current state, the vibe I'm getting is either people are not confident enough to call their mon a counter; or just to make their checks stand out amongst the others. I propose that we should at the minimum actually define what it really constitutes, so that people can classify their proposals for what they are really worth.
 
People use the term hard check because if a pokemon beats something 9 times out of 10 but loses the 1 time it takes a random coverage move or changes it set to specifaclly beat said counter then I think its fair to label something as a hard check. In terms of this thread tho it is debatable since its more or less about countering the specific set more then anything but I'm just explaining why people including myself use the term hard check
 
Definitions are a bunch of speculation disregarding real scenarios anyways. Unless you are entirely new they are pointless in the grand scheme of things. It is already subjective just makes it worse to call it "hard" check
 
In the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter, especially when all counters are a subset of checks. I also understand why some things are harder checks than the rest. And I probably dont see the harm of declaring a check as a hard check. However, for the purpose of this thread, where the aim is to find distinct counters and checks for a set, the fact that there are numerous cases where counters are declared as hard checks, seem to ultimately stray away from what is expected.
 

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