Victreebel (OU) QC: 1/2

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Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
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[OVERVIEW]
In a metagame filled to the brim with threatening Psychic-types, Ice-type coverage nearly everywhere, and special walls galore, one might question why they would select the slow and not particularly bulky Psychic weak Victreebel. However, there's more than meets the eye, as Victreebel packs a colorful support movepool that allows it not only to arguably be the second-best dual status inducer behind Exeggutor, but also be one of the best Wrap users. Victreebel also distinguishes itself from Exeggutor as a fast sleep inducer, outspeeding opposing Exeggutor and Lapras while Speed-tying Cloyster. With support from teammates such as Starmie, Chansey, and Alakazam, Victreebel can immobilize and wear down slower foes with Wrap. Victreebel can also self-sufficiently induce status upon faster foes as they switch in, although this strategy is more prediction-reliant. Victreebel's glaring weaknesses to Psychic and Ice cannot be ignored, however, as the wide majority of the metagame specifically runs Psychic, Blizzard, and Ice Beam as coverage moves. Furthermore, Victreebel becoming paralyzed itself completely neuters its role as both a status inducer and Wrap user. Lastly, Victreebel's coverage selections consist of Razor Leaf and Normal-type attacks, leaving it almost completely walled by Gengar.

[SET]
name: Status + Wrap
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Razor Leaf
move 3: Wrap
move 4: Stun Spore / Swords Dance / Hyper Beam

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Sleep Powder puts switch-ins asleep and is more effective against foes such as Chansey putting up Reflect or a double-switched Exeggutor already naturally slower than Victreebel than paralysis. Razor Leaf nails Water-types such as Slowbro, Starmie, and Lapras, Normal-types such as Tauros and Snorlax, and Rock / Ground-types such as Golem and Rhydon. Wrap is arguably Victreebel's most dangerous move, immobilizing a foe for two to five turns. A foe cannot attack Victreebel back during Wrap's duration, making it incredibly difficult for a slower Pokemon to break free from Victreebel cycling through Wrap, especially if its foes are paralyzed. Wrap also works well in tandem with Sleep Powder, as Wrap takes advantage of the paralyzed foes that would otherwise want to switch into Sleep Powder. It should be noted, however, that bulkier paralyzed Pokemon not weak to Razor Leaf such as Exeggutor, Chansey, and late-game Zapdos, as well as faster unparalyzed threats with a teammate sleep foddered in the back such as Alakazam or Articuno can switch into Victreebel's Wrap relatively safely. This is the primary reason Victreebel doesn't see consistent success, as it requires several if not all of its checks to be weakened and status-inflicted for Victreebel to optimally clean up. Chansey in particular can pivot into Sleep Powder, get hit by Wrap and then switch out to something faster like an unparalyzed Alakazam or Starmie. This way strategy prevents Victreebel from beating a paralyzed mon with Wrap or putting your faster mon to sleep, and is the main reason why Victreebel is more threatening on paper then in practice. Stun Spore paralyzes fast switch-ins to Victreebel such as Alakazam, Starmie, and Zapdos, crippling them and making them easier to clean up against later. Victreebel can also potentially paralyze Tauros in a one-on-one situation, although Victreebel would lose a lot of health and would risk itself getting paralyzed by Body Slam. However, it's usually still a favorable trade for the Victreebel user. Alternatively, Victreebel can take advantage of an asleep foe trying to wake up such as Exeggutor by boosting its Attack by two stages with Swords Dance. This makes Wrap an extremely hard attack for the opposition to switch into. Yet another option is Hyper Beam, which again cleans up against weakened foes late-game and is slightly more accurate than Wrap. Victreebel is incredibly frail and vulnerable to Ice- and Psychic-type attacks, so one should try to secure opportunities for Victreebel to come in predicting non-attacking moves such as Amnesia Snorlax going for Rest or a paralyzed, low-health Starmie going for Recover. Victreebel should then try to pick off each of the opponent's remaining Pokemon with Wrap. If Victreebel is running Swords Dance or Hyper Beam, it can use those when opportune to boost Wrap's power or finish a foe off quicker.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Although Victreebel has severe difficulty making room for both Swords Dance and Hyper Beam on the same set, it would allow Victreebel to act more efficiently as a late-game cleaner. Body Slam is another option in Victreebel's fourth moveslot that has the chance to paralyze foes and acts as a more accurate Normal coverage option than both Wrap and Hyper Beam. However, fishing for paralysis with Body Slam is less efficient at spreading status than Stun Spore, and Body Slam cannot paralyze Tauros and other Normal-type Pokemon.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Gengar**: Gengar resist Razor Leaf and is immune to Victreebel's Normal-type coverage moves, making it one of Victreebel's most reliable switch-ins, despite it susceptibility to paralysis and being put asleep.

**Faster Pokemon**: An unstatused Zapdos, Alakazam, Jynx, and Articuno can all switch into Wrap, wait for Wrap's duration to end, and force Victreebel out with either STAB Drill Peck, Psychic, or Blizzard. Starmie can do this also, but is incredibly susceptible to Razor Leaf if it predicts wrong.

**Paralysis Inducers**: Thunder Wave and Stun Spore users such as Zapdos and Chansey take very little from Razor Leaf due to their Grass resistance or their above average Special and can easily paralyze Victreebel, severely limiting its effectiveness as a status inducer and Wrap user. These foes can also induce paralysis if Victreebel happens to miss Wrap due to its shaky accuracy.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Aaronboyer, 239454]]
- Quality checked by: [[The Idiot Ninja, 265630], [, ]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
 
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While the Wrap set is the best and definitely most common set, I think a pure Swords Dance set should also be mentioned. It forgoes Wrap for Swords Dance. Sleep Powder and Razor Leaf remain unchanged, and the last slot usually is Hyper Beam. After putting something to sleep (depending on what the opponent has left) Victreebel gets a free turn to set up SD and can threaten a lot of damage onto the opposing team that way.

To put it simple.
Set1: Wrap
Razor Leaf
Sleep Powder
Wrap
Stun Spore / Hyper Beam (/ Swords Dance / Body Slam)
(unsure about what deserves to be slashed after Stun Spore. All of the 3 moves have their merit. Whichever don't make it into the slashes should definitely be mentioned as other options, I'd probably put SD and Slam in OO personally, which is why they are in parenthesis)

Set2: Swords Dance
Razor Leaf
Sleep Powder
Swords Dance
Hyper Beam
(Body Slam as an OO over Hyper Beam, but generally with SD you want the power of Hyper Beam to actually threaten kills.)
 
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Amaranth

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Overview:

  • With paralysis support from teammates such as Zapdos, Slowbro, and Alakazam, Victreebel can easily trap and abuse the mechanics of Wrap and Hyper Beam to clean up late-game.
  • Furthermore, Victreebel's poor physical bulk alongside its below average Speed doesn't mean Victreebel just appreciates paralysis support: it mandates it.
This is not how Victreebel usually functions in-game. It appreciates faster things being paralyzed sure, but it also loves being able to sleep powder freely and one of its main draws is super consistent access to sleep. Zapdos and Slowbro on a team together with Victreebel are very rare, replace them with Chansey and Starmie maybe. In general, rephrase these two points and merge them in one: Victreebel is very frail, it can prevent slower things from hitting it thanks to Wrap, but most fast Pokemon in the tier deal too much damage to it, so you have to have a plan for when they come in.

In the 'glaring weaknesses' bullet point, it should also be mentioned that Paralysis completely invalidates Victreebel.


Set Description:

Some bad wording in the bullet point about Sleep Powder ("foes already naturally slower than Victreebel than paralysis." - I assume the second 'than' is meant to be a 'without'?)

Razor Leaf is a strong STAB that threatens much more than the three things you mentioned. Just barely misses the 3HKO on Snorlax, chunks Tauros heavily, Starmie is one of the biggest targets for it as well, other Water-types (Lapras, Cloyster) take large amounts of damage too. Even Alakazam doesn't really like taking a Razor Leaf.

Articuno does not deserve a mention in the Stun Spore paragraph, it's a ridiculously niche and rare presence. Should mention paralyzing Zapdos on the switch-in and should mention the potential to paralyze Tauros in a 1v1 instead.

Swords Dance bullet point needs rewriting, it doesn't really help with lategame cleanup. The point of Swords Dance is to be able to sleep slower mons like Exeggutor and punish them if they choose to stay in and try to wake up, since powered up wraps make pretty quick work of it. Once you're set up switching into Wrap is hellish too, the doubled damage stacks up really quickly and it can decimate a team if the opponent allows you to get that SD turn.

Calling Hyper Beam 'the strongest move in its arsenal' is a bit misleading because of the connotations of the word 'strong'. Maybe highest base power, but it's not its strongest move in any other sense of the word.

Your point about Victreebel staying hidden until the field is ready is pretty much just wrong. One of Victreebel's main draws is that it can come in on whatever field and put some huge pressure on, since it can sleep things that are not paralyzed and it can wrap down things that are. Replace that bullet point with a mention of how Victreebel is really frail and vulnerable so you should try to secure opportunities for it to come in on something like a Resting Snorlax or a Recovering Starmie.


Team Options:

This section shouldn't exist. See the RBY analysis skeleton.


Other Options:

Body Slam is very bad on Victreebel. Don't mention it.


Checks and Counters:

Rather than Psychic-types and Ice-types as separate entries, make a single entry for 'faster Pokemon'. Zapdos, Alakazam, Jynx, Articuno, can all switch in on a Wrap and just wait it out. Starmie too but it takes massive damage back from Razor Leaf.

In 'Paralysis Inducers' don't mention Exeggutor as it would rather Psychic it, do add that Victreebel in general is incredibly frail and if it happens to miss a Wrap most things in RBY can punish it heavily via either damage or status.


When these changes are all properly implemented I'll give my check.
 
A trapped foe cannot attack Victreebel back during Wrap's duration nor can a foe switch out
The "trapped" pokemon is able to switch out so I would even use the term "trapped" here as it can be misleading since Wrap actually traps foes in later gens.
Sleep Powder puts switch-ins such as Chansey, Lapras, and Snorlax asleep and is more effective against foes already naturally slower than Victreebel than paralysis.
I wouldn't mention specific pokemon that can be hit by Sleep Powder. Lapras doesn't really want to switch into Victreebel as it is slower and threatened by either status move or Razor Leaf.

I don't know how effective Body Slam on Vic is but I would still mention it in OOs, even if it's mainly for explaining why it is rarely used as it could be an option to consider.
 

Amaranth

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I know, I'm not on an official QC team or anything, and The Idiot Ninja is. But Body Slam is definitely an "Other Option" worthy move.
No it isn't. If you want to paralyze things you run Stun Spore 100% of the time. It being sometimes useful does not mean it has an actual niche over other moves.
 
It most certainly is. In situations when Vic did put something to sleep, usually you cannot really use SD right there, because it is early in the game and stuff is healthy. Starting to Wrap is also not great because it makes waking up easier. Normally the stuff you just slept is not hit super hard by Razor Leaf so you don't really wanna go for that either. Stun Spore is obviously cool to catch something that could typically come in then, like Eggy or even an Alakazam or Zapdos. But it is prediction reliant. Body Slam gives you a cool glue move here. Of course you don't get the para 75% of the time, like with Stun, but you get something out of the turn no matter what. (damage the sleeping mon better than with anything else on that turn, chipping Eggy or Zapdos or whatever came in (PAR is fantastic, and even a possibilty. As is a critical hit). It's kinda like EQ on Tauros, you don't need it by any means, if you can predict every turn correctly, but it's a nice safe button to click as a midground. also, it allows you to not have to click (and hit) Wrap as often vs certain opponents, which is always nice. (hitting Eggy or whatever on the switch with it, makes you have to do less chip with Wrap)
 

Amaranth

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It most certainly is. In situations when Vic did put something to sleep, usually you cannot really use SD right there, because it is early in the game and stuff is healthy. Starting to Wrap is also not great because it makes waking up easier. Normally the stuff you just slept is not hit super hard by Razor Leaf so you don't really wanna go for that either. Stun Spore is obviously cool to catch something that could typically come in then, like Eggy or even an Alakazam or Zapdos. But it is prediction reliant. Body Slam gives you a cool glue move here. Of course you don't get the para 75% of the time, like with Stun, but you get something out of the turn no matter what. (damage the sleeping mon better than with anything else on that turn, chipping Eggy or Zapdos or whatever came in (PAR is fantastic, and even a possibilty. As is a critical hit). It's kinda like EQ on Tauros, you don't need it by any means, if you can predict every turn correctly, but it's a nice safe button to click as a midground.
Decent point, but you can definitely SD early on. The whole point of SD+Wrap is chipping healthy things down quick, it's not like you save it for lategame like you would with SD HBeam.

I guess it's a fine enough move to be OO worthy, I'll leave it for the 2nd QC check to rectify it. Thanks for the contribution
 
Victreebel can also potentially paralyze Tauros in a one-on-one situation, although Victreebel would lose a lot of health and would risk itself getting paralyzed by Body Slam.
Usually it is a very favourable trade for the Victreebel user to paralyse an opposing Tauros, even at the risk of getting Victreebel rendered almost useless. A paralysed Tauros is much, much easier to handle. I would just add something along the lines of "but usually that is still a favourable trade for the Victreebel user".

Additionally I still recommend to find a different word for "trapping with Wrap" as it actually prevents opposing mons from switching in future generations while in RBY it only prevents them from moving. I think the term "trapping" can be misleading but I don't really know the best way to replace it.

In my opinion the analysis should point out how great the synergy between Sleep Powder and Wrap is. Sleep Powder can be blocked by paralysed pokemon but said pokemon have their speed reduced which allows Victreebel to outspeed them and do damage with Wrap.
At the same time it should be mentioned that a bulky enough pokemon like paralysed Chansey can pivot into Sleep Powder, get hit by Wrap and then switch out to something faster like unparalysed Alakazam, Starmie or Zapdos which then can threaten Victreebel. That way you can prevent it from beating your paralysed mon with Wrap or putting your faster mon to sleep.
Victreebel could obviously still use Sleep Powder after Wrap end, but that means it has to take an attack in exchange for it which makes it way less useful for the remaining duration of the game.

Overall it looks pretty good.
 
Victreebel can trap slower foes with Wrap
I still don't like that wording as "trapping" implies preventing them from switching. I guess you could also just say "immobilize and wear them down" or something along the lines.

In my opinion the analysis should point out how great the synergy between Sleep Powder and Wrap is. Sleep Powder can be blocked by paralysed pokemon but said pokemon have their speed reduced which allows Victreebel to outspeed them and do damage with Wrap.
At the same time it should be mentioned that a bulky enough pokemon like paralysed Chansey can pivot into Sleep Powder, get hit by Wrap and then switch out to something faster like unparalysed Alakazam, Starmie or Zapdos which then can threaten Victreebel. That way you can prevent it from beating your paralysed mon with Wrap or putting your faster mon to sleep.
Victreebel could obviously still use Sleep Powder after Wrap end, but that means it has to take an attack in exchange for it which makes it way less useful for the remaining duration of the game.
Still this. The first part you did mention (that Vic can Wrap para'd mons who block sleep) but you still should adress how having a bulky paralysed pokemon not week to Razor Leaf and an unparalysed pokemon faster than Victreebel that can threaten it can be used against the Sleep and/or Wrap strategy as this is in my opponent one of the major flaws of Victreebel that prevents it from having success more consistently.
 
It should be noted, however, that bulkier paralyzed Pokemon not weak to Razor Leaf such as Zapdos and Snorlax, as well as faster unparalyzed threats with a teammate sleep foddered in the back such as Alakazam can switch into Victreebel's Wrap relatively safely.
I am not sure if you understood what I meant or if you/I explained it badly, but if I were a beginner and new to RBY, I wouldn't learn from this sentence what I think should be added to the analysis, namely how the counterplay vs the dangerous "Sleep an unparalysed mon and Wrap the paralysed ones" often is done. Sometimes Victreebel is unable to put an opposing mon to sleep (or needs to take huge risks to do so by staying in vs a faster pokemon that can hit it super-effectively).
Besides that, the most common paralysed pokemon used for this strategy is Chansey (due to sometimes absorbing the TWave turn 1 while the Victreebel player aimed to paralyse the lead Starmie/Alakazam). Zapdos would also work well for this strategy in general but is less likely to get paralysed in the early game. Basically any paralysed pokemon could be used with the right prediction but Snorlax still takes quite a bit if takes a Razor Leaf on the switch and doesn't have instant recovery so itsn't a very great example. I'd probably just use Chansey as specific example while explaining how the strategy works in general (mentioning Alakazam in the back is fine, so would be the entire "faster pokemon" from the C&C section).
At the same time it should be mentioned that a bulky enough pokemon like paralysed Chansey can pivot into Sleep Powder, get hit by Wrap and then switch out to something faster like unparalysed Alakazam, Starmie or Zapdos which then can threaten Victreebel. That way you can prevent it from beating your paralysed mon with Wrap or putting your faster mon to sleep.
I still don't know a better way to describe what I meant.
 
Sleep Powder puts switch-ins asleep and is more effective against foes already naturally slower than Victreebel than paralysis
It would be better to mention classic examples and Pokemon Victreebel is likely to try to sneak in on in the context of a game. Those include: Chansey and Snorlax on turns where you predict an move like Softboiled (Chansey) or Reflect , Rest (Snorlax) and Exeggutor on a switch-in (for example [no need to put this specifically into the analysis] when you have Rhydon out, opposing Exeggutor is expected to come in which gives Victreebel an opportunity to switch inon the predicted Exeggutor.

that bulkier paralyzed Pokemon not weak to Razor Leaf such as Zapdos and Chansey
Definitely mention Exeggutor here as well!

Chansey in particular can pivot into Sleep Powder, get hit by Wrap and then switch out to something faster like an unparalyzed Alakazam
Definitely mention Starmie here as well!

In general, I think it would be best to at least once somewhere explicitly mention that Victreebel outspeeds Exeggutor and Lapras. This is important since, as opposed to Exeggutor itself (the "natural" sleeper of most teams) Victreebel is faster than opposing Exeggutor, giving it the edge should it come to a situation where both players put in their sleeper at the same time. (This sometimes happens, for example in the case where Eggy switches into Rhydon and the Vic player predicts it.)
Bottomline of this paragraph: Outspeeding opposing Exeggutor and Lapras (and speedtying Cloyster) is definitely one of the selling points of Victreebel over Exeggutor as a sleeper and surely has a place in a Victreebel analysis. This big selling point is also that paralyzed Starmie does not sleep block it as easily as Exeggutor, which ,I think, is not explicitly mentioned in the analysis either but should be.
 

wyc2333

A=X+Y+Z Y: Hard Work
not a qc but sleep powder may not be a given on vic as the old analysis is edited. mie, zam, and jynx are often put into sleep, so being more effective against foes already naturally slower than Victreebel may not happen.
 
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Wait wtf why is SD not its own set? It's definitely good, functions very differently to Wrap and I'd argue that a large part of Bel's ability to threaten teams comes from its ability to run distinctly different sets that demand very different responses
 
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Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
This analysis has been updated up unto the point where a QC member can decide whether we take Sleep Powder off the set. QC I believe already decided way back when that Victreebel's analysis should have one set. However, I'm sure some metagame development has taken place during SPL XI and we can come to a decision there also.
 
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