Just a nitpick on that Bulky Swords Dance Virizion, would Sacred Sword be the better option over Close Combat? Seeing as how its defenses get compromised after a Close Combat. Just saying that after a Close Combat Virizion becomes a slower version of the standard offensive set. I would say that Sacred Sword may, in fact, be better as it differentiates the bulky Vizirion, more, from the standard offensive set and keeps Virizion bulky past the set up period.
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Virizion
- Thread starter Garganator
- Start date
Another idea for the Bulky SD set - Substitute could work as you can now avoid Scald burns and Toxic, thus allowing you to set up on many walls that it would have to be wary of otherwise. It is better than Lum Berry in that it will protect you from status more than once and may save you from being revenge killed. The obvious drawback is losing a coverage move which Lum Berry doesn't force you to do.
There are much better ways to deal with terrakion than using virizion. When you focus on giving virizion too much speed you can no longer use a mixed virizion effectively. I don't really like that ev spread since virizion needs the special attack more than the attack in order to power up giga drain. Close combat is already so powerful you don't need much attack. I also disagree with you when you say close combat should be its main move. With all the rain teams out there giga drain is much more useful. Since both virzions attack and special attack are so low you should only be attacking with it using an expert belt powered up super effective attack.
One virizion that I really enjoy using is a physically bulky calm mind set.
Virizion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 244 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
This virizion fares much better against pokemon like scizor taking under 50% from a Choice band U-turn(iirc) letting it either setup more calm minds or attack. With its naturally high special defence, this pokemon can tank hits from both spectrums and threaten with its strong STABs and coverage. This virizion is really nice against most volt-turns, as it can tank/threaten most of the common volt turners(i.e. lando/rotom-w/scizor).
Virizion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 244 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
This virizion fares much better against pokemon like scizor taking under 50% from a Choice band U-turn(iirc) letting it either setup more calm minds or attack. With its naturally high special defence, this pokemon can tank hits from both spectrums and threaten with its strong STABs and coverage. This virizion is really nice against most volt-turns, as it can tank/threaten most of the common volt turners(i.e. lando/rotom-w/scizor).
@gbagcn First things first. If you are not running as much speed as possible on an offensive, non-boosting pokemon with a good speed stat like Virizion, then you may aswell not bother using it because you will get KOd before you can KO the opposing pokemon. I wasn't saying that Virizion is the ideal way to deal with Terrakion, I was merely saying that if it is 1 vs 1, then you will die because you no longer have the 50:50 chance of winning the speed tie when using HP Fire.
Secondly, I was under the impression that the point of using this was taking out some physical walls so you will be able to spam Close Combat. Why would you invest in SpA any more than is neseccary? You can't compare the 75 Base power of Giga Drain to the 120 of Close Combat. If you run the calcs, you will see that investing in SpA any more than in my spread is not worth it for Giga Drain. All calcs use Life Orb, which you need. Expert Belt is unreliable on many threats and gives a lower power boost. Giga Drain will regain any recoil damage.
56 SpA Virizion Giga Drain vs 252/4 Politoed - 53.12 - 63.02%
252 SpA Virizion Giga Drain vs 252/4 Politoed - 64.58 - 76.56%
You still can't OHKO with full investment. And don't say use a +SpA nature because A- you lose your speed and B - you still don't get the OHKO. The extra damage only matters on Politoed with no investment in HP, which is 27% of Politoed currently, and you are still going to severely harm them, Scarf can't 2HKO when it's 1 vs 1 with both at full health because of the health you will regain from Giga Drain, and you outspeed Specs and 2HKO, and it can't OHKO you. 56 SpA cripples Rotom which can only burn you, so all you have to do is find out if it is choiced or not and go from there, or wear it down slightly with a few Stealth Rock switch ins. Both SpA EVs get the OHKO on Starmie with Stealth Rock. Both only get the 2HKO with Stealth Rock on physically defensive Jellicent, the extra SpA only matters on specially defensive versions which are used much less. Both spreads 2HKO Vaporeon with Stealth Rock. And that is pretty much it as far as water types go in OU. Of course there is nothing stopping you from running max SpA, but I would much rather invest more in Atk for doing stuff like 2HKOing Jirachi and OHKOing Heatran and Blissey with Stealth Rock.
On another note, I'm thinking that HP Ice than HP Fire might be better because Close Combat 2HKOs Scizor so it can't switch in to you twice, and Forretress is much rarer than Gliscor and Dragonite. Plus when the opponent sees Close Combat or Stone Edge they may assume it is purely physical and send Gliscor in which you can take out and also, you can max out your speed for those important speed ties.
Secondly, I was under the impression that the point of using this was taking out some physical walls so you will be able to spam Close Combat. Why would you invest in SpA any more than is neseccary? You can't compare the 75 Base power of Giga Drain to the 120 of Close Combat. If you run the calcs, you will see that investing in SpA any more than in my spread is not worth it for Giga Drain. All calcs use Life Orb, which you need. Expert Belt is unreliable on many threats and gives a lower power boost. Giga Drain will regain any recoil damage.
56 SpA Virizion Giga Drain vs 252/4 Politoed - 53.12 - 63.02%
252 SpA Virizion Giga Drain vs 252/4 Politoed - 64.58 - 76.56%
You still can't OHKO with full investment. And don't say use a +SpA nature because A- you lose your speed and B - you still don't get the OHKO. The extra damage only matters on Politoed with no investment in HP, which is 27% of Politoed currently, and you are still going to severely harm them, Scarf can't 2HKO when it's 1 vs 1 with both at full health because of the health you will regain from Giga Drain, and you outspeed Specs and 2HKO, and it can't OHKO you. 56 SpA cripples Rotom which can only burn you, so all you have to do is find out if it is choiced or not and go from there, or wear it down slightly with a few Stealth Rock switch ins. Both SpA EVs get the OHKO on Starmie with Stealth Rock. Both only get the 2HKO with Stealth Rock on physically defensive Jellicent, the extra SpA only matters on specially defensive versions which are used much less. Both spreads 2HKO Vaporeon with Stealth Rock. And that is pretty much it as far as water types go in OU. Of course there is nothing stopping you from running max SpA, but I would much rather invest more in Atk for doing stuff like 2HKOing Jirachi and OHKOing Heatran and Blissey with Stealth Rock.
On another note, I'm thinking that HP Ice than HP Fire might be better because Close Combat 2HKOs Scizor so it can't switch in to you twice, and Forretress is much rarer than Gliscor and Dragonite. Plus when the opponent sees Close Combat or Stone Edge they may assume it is purely physical and send Gliscor in which you can take out and also, you can max out your speed for those important speed ties.
Just posting to say that HP Fire should almost never be considered on Virizion. If you have to go Hidden Power, then HP Ice is best. If you don't care about the IV drop and want a different Hidden Power then you can go with HP Rock I guess (this is speaking generally not in regards to any particular set) which still hits Nite / Mence and now hits Gyarados and Volcarona decently hard.
Hidden Power Fire however, just has basically no real use, especially when a +1 Fist Plate Focus Blast from CM Virizion OHKOs Scizor (at least with SR iirc maybe even without), and everything you might use HP Fire on gets handled by Focus Blast anyway. Swords Dance Virizion doesn't need HP Fire either since CC gets a solid 2KO on Scizor and again, HP Ice and Stone Edge are more attractive options in the last slot than for HP Fire. Don't use HP Fire, like....ever
Hidden Power Fire however, just has basically no real use, especially when a +1 Fist Plate Focus Blast from CM Virizion OHKOs Scizor (at least with SR iirc maybe even without), and everything you might use HP Fire on gets handled by Focus Blast anyway. Swords Dance Virizion doesn't need HP Fire either since CC gets a solid 2KO on Scizor and again, HP Ice and Stone Edge are more attractive options in the last slot than for HP Fire. Don't use HP Fire, like....ever
Yeah, that's what I realised in my last post, I was trying to suggest it to the original creator rather than force it on him. HP Rock is not something I would use in general for Virizion (the only times I've ever used HP Rock is with certain sun sweepers) but I do understand why others would. Btw +1 Focus Blast without a boosting item against CB Scizor does 78.71-93.29% so you have a 37.5% chance to KO with Stealth Rock. Life Orb KOs without Stealth Rock.
I think the fall of Virizion's usage has been completely justified. I would argue that rain stall has fallen out of usage as of late due to one thing: the complete fall of the use in Chansey. Chansey was used exclusively on rain stall teams instead of Blissey due to the ability to prevent Sand damage with rain. Chansey's usage is pretty much tied to the usage in rainstall: so a fall in Chansey is a fall in rain stall. Essentially, Virizion's niche isn't in demand anymore.
Competition with other fighting types that can do its job almost as effecetively drove its usage down to. Terrakion can give stall teams headaches, rain included, with just its STAB and power alone. Breloom too could break rain stall with ease once Skarm is out of the way or weakened (to then be promptly spored). What Terrakion and Breloom do though is offer more than just the package of (breaking up rainstall).
Competition with other fighting types that can do its job almost as effecetively drove its usage down to. Terrakion can give stall teams headaches, rain included, with just its STAB and power alone. Breloom too could break rain stall with ease once Skarm is out of the way or weakened (to then be promptly spored). What Terrakion and Breloom do though is offer more than just the package of (breaking up rainstall).
So in other words, it's just time for Virizion to take its talents to UU?
I have no idea why people have opted to use Breloom over Virizion, to be honest. The two sets (Calm Mind and Swords Dance) have not lost any potency whatsoever. While I admit Bulk Up Breloom is good, I see no reason why you'd use it over Virizion, since everything that it beats gets destroyed by Virizion anyway, while Virizion beats even more. Sure, it gets status immunity, but Virizion gets a lot more speed and can beat more things (Dragonite, Gliscor, Salamence, Heatran, etc).
I agree with you completly, but I guess like you said the two main reasons too use Breloom> Virizion is Spore and Poison Heal. With Spore you essentially make one of their pokemon useless, giving you a distinct advantage. With Poison Heal you get status immunity and recovery, giving Breloom a lot more survivability. Also with Breloom being status'd already, he makes a more reliable switch in to scalds(i.e. rain teams) while something like SD Virizion(and even CM) does not enjoy getting burned. But I do agree Virizion is so good and its a shame it doesnt get more usage :'(
Figure this thread could use a bump after the discovery of what Tutor Moves Virizion gets in BW2.
Virizion Seed Bomb, Bounce, Block, Superpower, Zen Headbutt, Snore, Synthesis, Giga Drain, Worry Seed, Helping Hand, Sleep Talk
Virizion Seed Bomb, Bounce, Block, Superpower, Zen Headbutt, Snore, Synthesis, Giga Drain, Worry Seed, Helping Hand, Sleep Talk
Zen Headbutt means it isn't walled by Toxicroak, but Croak is already rather frail so that isn't too big.
It won't work. What STAB will you have? You also don't have good physical bulk...
Virizion could be good in Sun teams, since it threatens the other weather starters with it's STABs and helps with the weather war. Too bad it didn't get Stealth Rock like it's brothers (but they're Steel and Rock, so I guess it makes more sense). Maybe a set like Leaf Blade / Close Combat / Synthesis / filler with max SDef / max HP or something similar? It could help vs Keldeo in the sun.
Choice Specs Timid Keldeo's Secret Sword versus 4/0 Virizion: 83.64 - 99.07% - 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I wouldn't say with much certainty that Virizion can beat Keldeo.
I wouldn't say with much certainty that Virizion can beat Keldeo.