In Progress Visual Indicator for RBY Recover Failure

[Plague von Karma]

For details on the mechanics, go here and here. This does not occur in Stadium.​

A fairly notorious bug in RBY causes your recovery moves to fail if you reach a certain number. Almost every Pokemon in the game is affected by it in some form. Currently, it's difficult to tell if your recovery move will fail without having some kind of spreadsheet up, doing the math literally every turn, or being a psychopath that's memorized it all. I personally believe it's unreasonable to have to do any of these, as it's a very rare scenario with few lines of play where you can actually set it up...and even then, you're hitting ranges unless it involves Seismic Toss I guess? It's just one of those "why" moments I'm sure every player has experienced a few times.

I was discussing the possibility of there being some kind of visual indicator being implemented on the PS client. In my hypothetical implementation, if you have Soft-Boiled, Recover or/or Rest in your moveset, and your HP is at a point where the move will fail, an indicator will come up. I personally think having a hint message for the player afflicted should come up in the battle log, stating that your HP has reached that number and will fail if used. Of course, this message should be invisible to the opposing player, as they should not have that information. An alternative would be maybe making your HP number in the tooltips red, I guess.

Having the knowledge and memory of these numbers is, in fact, a skill, and I don't believe that should be argued. However, I believe it is inconvenient to waste timer just to make sure your Chansey isn't about to fail using Soft-Boiled and subsequently get assblasted by Hyper Beam Snorlax. No, I didn't have that happen today, what are you on about? Besides, there are times where you're going to use Recover multiple turns in a row - sometimes for many turns, remember that recovery moves have a LOT of PP in Gen 1 - and many of these turns may involve checking your HP. That time adds up, and depending on how you're checking, it could be a lot. Of course, not all turns require checking, and you can easily say "it's around 60% for X" and check at those points, but it's definitely going to add up. The bottom line is: this mechanic is inconvenient management-wise, and since the perfect player "would already know", an indicator would greatly assist everyone. Not to mention that if you really don't want these hints, you can just turn on "Hardcore Mode" and only go off of cartridge information.

This would be of massive help to many RBYers and would increase the generation's accessibility by a good margin. We already have sleep turn counters, "you may be trapped", etc as indicators, and I don't think it's a stretch to add something like this. So long as this is non-invasive, I believe there's nothing stopping this from being a thing.

 

[phoopes]

This would be such a great quality of life improvement oh my lord. Every RBY player has been there at some point where the obvious play is to just click Recover/Softboiled/Rest and you do and then it fails and gives your opponent the game pretty much. If there's PP indicators and Sleep turn indicators to keep people from having to memorize a lot of information, I think that having some kind of indicator for when recovery moves will fail is fair game. Like I cannot stress enough how much of an inconvenience it would be to have to memorize HP values or do math on the fly, so something that pops up to the affected player only like the "you might be trapped" message would be so appreciated

 

[DaWoblefet]

A variant of this suggestion was already rejected. Quoting from myself there:

If you're talking about prompting the player when they select their action for the turn, I would be strongly against this. We're not trying to hand-hold players into "whoops, you didn't know about this mechanic before you clicked the move! here you go!". For example, we don't prompt a player to nudge them away from clicking Thunderbolt if your ally has LightningRod, or Fake Out on a grounded target in Psychic Terrain, or a non-super effective attack into Wonder Guard, or Poltergeist if the opponent's item has already been removed, or Substitute if your HP is below 25%, or dozens and dozens of other situations. Part of the skill of competitive Pokemon is understanding battle mechanics, and Gen 1 is full of unintuitive quirks. If the player doesn't understand the mechanics and chooses a move that would fail, that's on them.

Having the move indicate a visual change via color or something is likely a better solution than a popup suggested in the other thread, but what is the functional difference in this suggestion from the myriad of other mechanics that are unintuitive and not advantageous for the player to select across multiple generations?

To take yet another example: clicking Sleep Talk on the final turn of Rest, when you're guaranteed to wake up and Sleep Talk is guaranteed to fail. The only functional difference I see between this and the Recover failure in Gen 1 is that Gen 1 requires you to do math. I would argue that implementing hand-holdy solutions for each mechanic like this, however unintuitive, takes away from the fact that as a player, you just need to learn mechanics like this; it's a part of the game to know them.

 

[Plague von Karma]

A variant of this suggestion was already rejected.

That's fine, feel free to close this in that case.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

To take yet another example: clicking Sleep Talk on the final turn of Rest, when you're guaranteed to wake up and Sleep Talk is guaranteed to fail. The only functional difference I see between this and the Recover failure in Gen 1 is that Gen 1 requires you to do math. I would argue that implementing hand-holdy solutions for each mechanic like this, however unintuitive, takes away from the fact that as a player, you just need to learn mechanics like this; it's a part of the game to know them.

I don't see how this is any more hand-holdy than keeping track of PP and other tooltips like that.

 

[Plague von Karma]

DaWobletfett asked me to bring up some more stuff rather than just put the thread down, so I'll put some stuff forward.

If you're talking about prompting the player when they select their action for the turn, I would be strongly against this. We're not trying to hand-hold players into "whoops, you didn't know about this mechanic before you clicked the move! here you go!". For example, we don't prompt a player to nudge them away from clicking Thunderbolt if your ally has LightningRod, or Fake Out on a grounded target in Psychic Terrain, or a non-super effective attack into Wonder Guard, or Poltergeist if the opponent's item has already been removed, or Substitute if your HP is below 25%, or dozens and dozens of other situations. Part of the skill of competitive Pokemon is understanding battle mechanics, and Gen 1 is full of unintuitive quirks. If the player doesn't understand the mechanics and chooses a move that would fail, that's on them.

--

[22:44:11] &DaWoblefet: what I would respond with, so you can preempt me
[22:44:43] &DaWoblefet: is that other tiers would ask for each of their unique mechanics to implement some sort of "warning, this is probably a bad move!"
[22:45:09] &DaWoblefet: you can use the example of Sleep Talk Rest, as it's very comparable, but there were a few others listed
[22:45:49] &DaWoblefet: you can generate a much of those
[22:46:04] &DaWoblefet: I think you could go one of two ways
[22:46:13] &DaWoblefet: 1) argue that the math is a good enough difference
[22:46:29] &DaWoblefet: or 2) argue that those sorts of "you shouldn't do this" scenarios are perfectly fine to tell the player
[22:46:58] &DaWoblefet: I don't think hardcode mode is a good argument fwiw, no SPL player or even any competitive VGC player will use that on Showdown

I don't believe this is a slippery slope sort of deal as you said in DMs, and I would argue that this is in fact fallacious use of the term. I ask you this: why would you go down that slope? Why would giving a hint for a rare mechanic - that can potentially lose you the game outright, I might add - lead to you suddenly giving hints for when Fake Out would fail every turn? This is a mechanic that has lost even high-level players tour games because, again, it's not your regular low ladder mistake. This isn't more hand-holdy than being told the sleep counter.

Every single mechanic you are citing here, while it can be compared to RBY Recovery Failure...I wouldn't say it's a simple rookie mistake. Again, this is something even high-level RBYers get wrong. Hell, on SmogTours it's common to joke during RBY games about possibly seeing the bug come up. What you're showing are all extremely basic interactions that you would know simply through viewing tooltips. Like, if you use Thunderbolt while your Lightningrod Raichu is out, christ, that is an extremely basic mistake and a case of you not even knowing your own team. Hell, in this scenario, you ARE told that this is a bad move simply by mousing over your Raichu.

This, on the other hand, is a generation-exclusive mechanic that beginners often find out by accident, or when someone is specifically talking about the woes of RBY. It's not something that has been around in every game since the inception of abilities. You have to know an obscure 3-digit number for well over 30 Pokemon if you're the perfect player...possibly even in number and percentage if you're dedicated. Hell, this isn't even going into UU or Ubers where you have even more to remember. For a mechanic like this, it is perfectly reasonable to give a hint message in the Battle Log. Hell, even for someone like me, who remembers Chansey's Soft-Boiled fails at 448 and 192 HP - around 65% and 25% respectively - I can't remember Alakazam's numbers without doing Ctrl+F on my spreadsheet. I main this game and play no other generation, and have for many years. I really don't think it's as simple as going "just learn the mechanic". Hell, we're not even getting into level-limited formats yet where the numbers change, and you are absolutely doing math for those! You're losing timer for the sake of knowing if your recovery move is going to fail or not! Like, god, Random Battles are hell to check for...

(I also agree that Hardcore Mode isn't a great argument, since not only would this be taken away, but a lot of other QoL features)

To take yet another example: clicking Sleep Talk on the final turn of Rest, when you're guaranteed to wake up and Sleep Talk is guaranteed to fail. The only functional difference I see between this and the Recover failure in Gen 1 is that Gen 1 requires you to do math. I would argue that implementing hand-holdy solutions for each mechanic like this, however unintuitive, takes away from the fact that as a player, you just need to learn mechanics like this; it's a part of the game to know them.

The ResTalk comparison feels like a reach, but I can see why you're bringing it up. You have very real alerts to this; namely the sleep turn counter and the move description. For RBY Recovery Failure, you have your HP number, which you have to actually recognize as the bad one. You have to remember a highly specific percentage (down to decimals, in fact) for not one, but multiple Pokemon. Alternatively, you remember a highly specific 3-digit number. There are many Rest users - even more obscure builds like Rest Rhydon which was used in SPL earlier - and this does affect them. This isn't a simple case of "just learn lol". I highly doubt someone playing RBY UU is remembering the recovery failure number for Aerodactyl.

Having the move indicate a visual change via color or something is likely a better solution than a popup suggested in the other thread, but what is the functional difference in this suggestion from the myriad of other mechanics that are unintuitive and not advantageous for the player to select across multiple generations?

The big difference here is the scope. There is no accessible resource for recovery failure numbers anywhere on Smogon: not on the strategy dex, not on any Smogon article (like the CH one), zippo, nada, goose egg. Those two pages in the OP - which are largely reserved to people who go through my resource hub - are the only ones, and it wasn't until I made them a few months ago that there was a comprehensive resource. The only one beforehand was an obscure forum post on Pokemon Perfect which has had the sprites poof out of existence with no Pokemon names, so to use it, you have to quote the message and view the names. This is extremely obscure info, and as you say later on, you have to get out a calculator and put the numbers together. This is extremely different from any other unintuitive mechanic.

Generally, a lot of the scenarios you're putting forward simply don't compare to our problem. This is a QOL change that would take the edge off of one of the most controversial, unintuitive and universally despised mechanics in Pokemon history. Even top players despise this thing and there have been small cliques of people who would even argue its removal (don't actually do that). This, in my opinion, would be the perfect compromise.

 

[Zarel]

I'm definitely split on this. I think it's fine to provide convenience features, but "things that most people would not be able to figure out on the fly at all" seem a bit iffy. It's the same reason we don't provide detailed HP pixel analysis (if you could count the number of pixels in your opponent's HP bar and do perfect math inside your head, one attack is usually enough to calculate your opponent's HP and defensive IVs and EVs). This is "technically possible but practically no one does it", which I think crosses a line that "help count how many times your opponent clicked Close Combat" doesn't.

So the big question is: How realistic is it for someone to be able to calculate: max HP - current HP = 1 (mod 256) on the fly, every time they use a healing move? Probably not.

BUT: how realistic is it for someone to memorize all the HP values that satisfy this equation, for every pokemon that they have recovery moves on? I think that's pretty realistic.

For that reason, I would support if the tooltip on the healing move showed a list of which HP values would cause move failure for the current pokemon. I think this would be more similar to "did the math on a calculator ahead of time" (plausible) than "reliably does perfect math before every time you use the move" (implausible).

I think anything that changed depending on whether or not the move was about to fail, would be going too far, though.

 

[meloyy]

I can't speak for everyone, but I feel like many RBY players have a list of recovery fail numbers somewhere in a .txt file or google doc that they can refer to during important games like this:

Example

Alakazam: 19% - 58 HP
Starmie: 22% - 68 HP
Chansey: 64% - 448 HP | 28% - 192 HP
Snorlax: 52% - 268 HP | 3% - 12 HP
Jynx: 24% - 78 HP
Cloyter: 16% - 48 HP
Jolteon: 24% - 78 HP
Slowbro: 36% - 138 HP
Lapras: 46% - 209 HP

I think it is certainly a good idea to make something like this available in the RBY resources, possibly with a short article just like the one that exists for critical hit rates. However if you want this information available in a battle then implementing a command might be a good way of going about it. Typing /(command name) (Pokemon name) would display the numbers that would cause a recovery move to fail. This way the player is not being fed knowledge about the tier's mechanics while also not having to make their own reference sheet. I honestly think just a list like the one above on the RBY articles page would be enough, but a command could be nice if quality of life is the main goal.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I should point out that I'm not asking for anything to be done when you use the move, no "warnings" when clicking anything, none of that. I'm asking for some sort of indicator - be it text in the battle log, a colour change or whatever else. I don't know where that got lost in translation, but I want to clarify as it seems I'm being misinterpreted.

For that reason, I would support if the tooltip on the healing move showed a list of which HP values would cause move failure for the current pokemon. I think this would be more similar to "did the math on a calculator ahead of time" (plausible) than "reliably does perfect math before every time you use the move" (implausible).

While I disagree with what you're defining as realistic, this change would be amazing. It largely serves the same purpose as what I'm suggesting: giving people some kind of information that shows when your recovery move will fail. So long as it would consider levels for non-L100 Pokemon in play, I would be in full support of this change.

So just to ensure I'm getting this right, this (could) be the long description for Soft-Boiled if it's implemented:

The user restores 1/2 of its maximum HP, rounded down. Fails if (user's maximum HP - user's current HP + 1) is divisible by 256.

Will fail when user is at X HP.

Or something like that? If so, I think this is perfect and much less invasive than my ideas. It takes away the need for the spreadsheets while not "backseating" for any player.

I can't speak for everyone, but I feel like many RBY players have a list of recovery fail numbers somewhere in a .txt file or google doc that they can refer to during important games like this:

Example

Alakazam: 19% - 58 HP
Starmie: 22% - 68 HP
Chansey: 64% - 448 HP | 28% - 192 HP
Snorlax: 52% - 268 HP | 3% - 12 HP
Jynx: 24% - 78 HP
Cloyter: 16% - 48 HP
Jolteon: 24% - 78 HP
Slowbro: 36% - 138 HP
Lapras: 46% - 209 HP

I think it is certainly a good idea to make something like this available in the RBY resources, possibly with a short article just like the one that exists for critical hit rates. However if you want this information available in a battle then implementing a command might be a good way of going about it. Typing /(command name) (Pokemon name) would display the numbers that would cause a recovery move to fail. This way the player is not being fed knowledge about the tier's mechanics while also not having to make their own reference sheet. I honestly think just a list like the one above on the RBY articles page would be enough, but a command could be nice if quality of life is the main goal.

Right, in the OP I gave two extensive articles with tables featuring the recovery failure numbers you're speaking of. Both of these aren't the most well-known: I rarely see the Google Sheet in use and the web article doesn't have high access stats. I believe this due to obscurity, and that's fine.

However, I don't see how a simple QoL change on PS can be seen as spoonfeeding mechanics when it's something literally known for even top players getting wrong semi-regularly. Wouldn't a command serve literally the same purpose as a notification, only more obscure? I don't see why this is any different from my proposal, only more anti-user.

 

[meloyy]

I was kind of thinking that the player should be aware of the mechanic by learning about the tier, but given that the mechanic is explained in the chat whenever it happens I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference. The comparison I was making in my head was with the Sleep Talk + Choice item mechanic in DPP since it is something kind of obscure you just have to learn about, but I see how they are different now. I agree with the tooltip idea.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I was kind of thinking that the player should be aware of the mechanic by learning about the tier, but given that the mechanic is explained in the chat whenever it happens I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference. The comparison I was making in my head was with the Sleep Talk + Choice item mechanic in DPP since it is something kind of obscure you just have to learn about, but I see how they are different now. I agree with the tooltip idea.

I'm glad we see eye to eye on this.

--

It's hard to find someone who isn't at least aware of this mechanic's existence, it's almost guaranteed to be mentioned when someone starts ranting about RBY's low points. We've all seen it. But to make use of that knowledge, well...it's far different to your everyday Doubles mechanics. It goes a bit beyond simply evaluating game state when explicit resources for an extremely specific HP number have to be used, this is time that should ideally spent calcing damage and the like. This is why a tooltip with the failure number noted would be effective.

 

[Endeby]

As I said in the RBY chat on Discord, I have literally decided against going on the RBY ladder after staying months away from the game due to how annoying this bug is. It's not hard for a dedicated RBY battler to remember which HP values are unsafe to recover at (or just have a spreadsheet up, as OP wrote), but for us fun/multi-gen players, it's just a major inconvience that makes RBY less attractive as a metagame overall.

I understand that a purist argument can be made against making a tooltip with that info, obviously. It's not like the carts provide such information. Then again, most cart metas also don't remember which Pokemon the opponent sent in for you, yet it's a part of the Showdown interface for every metagame. This would be a big quality of life change for players such as myself.

 

[Zarel]

This is approved to be implemented in the way I outlined earlier: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/visual-indicator-for-rby-recover-failure.3677391/#post-8738188

It's always possible to convince me otherwise, but I think that way represents the best compromise approach and I don't think anyone would be upset by it.

 

[Luigi]

This is approved to be implemented in the way I outlined earlier: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/visual-indicator-for-rby-recover-failure.3677391/#post-8738188

It's always possible to convince me otherwise, but I think that way represents the best compromise approach and I don't think anyone would be upset by it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-660803

Arguably the best player in the game just messed the interaction up in Classic finals, to illustrate that it's still very much a problem even at the absolute highest level of competition and skill. If having a message similar to the trapping message is out of the question, could the tooltip at least say the specific HP numbers for each pokemon instead of the current tooltip which just states the mechanic exists and isn't very useful.

IE: if you hover over Chansey's softboiled it says "Move will fail if user has 448 or 192 HP" etc