Mafia vs Village Weeb Mafia: GAME OVER! Postgame in #504-505

Killing twin wasn't that big compared to yeti taking over + pseudo cleaning US + getting rid of two PR.
yeti taking over: mistake by Nomark. nbd

US pseudo-cleaned: no one's fault. shaky interaction caused by a transporter. people really shouldn't have claimed though to US immediately and might've been better to be more cautious but can't really blame anyone for that.

getting rid of two pr - no idea what this is referring to. vig'ing oddish was bad and that was a mistake yeah. i will accept some blame for mithril but nobody worked with me. like i said i should've been more assertive and just gone with what i felt but i was swayed i guess by what sam thought. my b
 
some good critiques by yeti that i didn't think of. yeah in hindsight it was a really winnable game for village. that makes me feel bad just thinking about the game tho :x

i think alts are really [bad word] and i will be posting a thread about them shortly but first i need to gather my thoughts regarding them. i just don't think they are very fun / good for "the spirit" of the game. take that as you will.
 
expert killer is bad because there are roles that can accomplish the same thing that don't make me auto-die as soon as i claimed my role name or nomark sheeted yeti. the way in which it interacts with other roles in a non-standard way makes the game unclear and is unfair to villagers. how is shubaka supposed to explain why his role doesn't work? how am i supposed to prepare for a role that i don't expect to be in the game and have no reason to expect it to be in the game? i don't focus on expanding leadership because there is no reason to expect a kill to bypass 3 types of protection.

the role also only works based on an element of surprise. if i know it's in the game then i never claim my role name or no one else ever talks about their role name. the role is now useless and a waste of space for the most part.

theoretically the trade-off to a village leader should always be that more important roles are not protected. obviously things don't work out that way because as you would have it, smarter players tend to be more valuable than good roles come late game due to situations where you have people who don't know what they're doing or don't make correct choices that a different player would make correctly. i liked mithril's bg role because it added an element of doubt to things. that's good.

i think it's totally fine if you want to go the route of nerfing the village leader so they don't live forever but expert killer is not the way to go. don't put any protection roles in the game. don't put in a BG or limit it from protecting the same person one night. but when i can't counterplay it or have no expectation of it being in the game, then it just removes my agency and makes planning useless.

also there weren't lots of surefire ways to clean people and expand leadership efficiently. this is kind of like sam saying in metagame "yeti add more kids to the sheet" but there were no roles to clean anyone with so we were left to guessing. DLE had a mole role, and there was one alliance checker. role name checker doesn't really mean much because flavor is fairly arbitrary although i admit that it's close. it's totally reasonable that people won't get sheeted quickly or at all due to a lack of real ways to clean people and there definitely weren't. maybe i am a bit of an outlier because i am more paranoid than a lot of ppl on this site, but if you look at my sheet day 2, who on there reasonably deserves the sheet? rssp1? could be wolf.. flyhn? role isn't really proven etc. The person I considered adding the most was kirsche and as we all know that would've been a mistake LOL!
The mafia roles in this game were so brazenly mafia that the Rolecop was basically an alliance check. The tracker is also really strong in a game with no role safeclaims. Empoof dying night 1 was a matter of circumstance, but you were a backup and you could have picked Alliance check if you didn't want to step up. Testing people with the SG and the decoy worked wonders, and HAS cleaned people in this game.

I hate mole roles so I specifically made it so that DLE getting sheet wouldn't inherently damage town because while he won alone his quests were town aligned in the early game. As long as he had protection, he wouldn't in the endgame when suddenly prisoner's dilemma games and redirection crop up at the same time someone discovers Mithril or whatever is town. He would have to fight his way out of that and sheet access was nowhere near guaranteed for him even in the beginning. Outside of that single exception all inspections were reliable.

Putting the protective roles in the game and having an expert killer as opposed to no protection, no Ekiller means that the village gets rewarded for finding the Ekiller. which is an upside I wanted in addition to allowing more protection for other reasons (DLE, every night vig, etc)

You did have agency, and you planned well. While you were alive you scumhunted and negotiated, you lynched and you progressed the general information level of the village.

Ekiller was unclear, but so were a lot of other mafia aligned roles. I firmly believe in having the mafia work in ways town may not expect. People don't expect to have results stolen, or get their kill reversed, or suffer a dictatorship in which you have to take the inspector's word that everyone needs to vote, or having a Safeguard effect have hook flavor, or having a truck pass by them notifying targets that they were the locations of transportation instead of notifying the people that were redirected. But all these things gave you a hint after the first time it happened to you as to what was going on, and the village had the numbers to absorb mistakes. You weren't supposed to be able to guess beforehand whether or not it was in the game, you were supposed to be surprised and afraid when you saw someone important die, and be wary that it might be you next if you talk to the wrong person. You talk about traditional balance being WIFOM protection but in practice other people really just don't get involved or learn about the game at all.

Plus I made the design parallel RWBY mafia as closely as possible. My faction there had a Decoy-BG combo and Ozpin had an Expert killer to get around it. There was precedent, even in the result shubaka got that others could relate to.

I don't really get what making it hookable does either. If a hooker got Nico they would have seen she was too skilled and then Nico gets quicklynched lmao.shub was supposed to be a regular martyr as I've said and that would have done the same thing.

I don't think in context it's "inherently unbalanced", however it is unfun for the person that gets killed and I am sorry about that.
 
The mafia roles in this game were so brazenly mafia that the Rolecop was basically an alliance check. The tracker is also really strong in a game with no role safeclaims. Empoof dying night 1 was a matter of circumstance, but you were a backup and you could have picked Alliance check if you didn't want to step up. Testing people with the SG and the decoy worked wonders, and HAS cleaned people in this game.

I hate mole roles so I specifically made it so that DLE getting sheet wouldn't inherently damage town because while he won alone his quests were town aligned in the early game. As long as he had protection, he wouldn't in the endgame when suddenly prisoner's dilemma games and redirection crop up at the same time someone discovers Mithril or whatever is town. He would have to fight his way out of that and sheet access was nowhere near guaranteed for him even in the beginning. Outside of that single exception all inspections were reliable.

Putting the protective roles in the game and having an expert killer as opposed to no protection, no Ekiller means that the village gets rewarded for finding the Ekiller. which is an upside I wanted in addition to allowing more protection for other reasons (DLE, every night vig, etc)

You did have agency, and you planned well. While you were alive you scumhunted and negotiated, you lynched and you progressed the general information level of the village.

Ekiller was unclear, but so were a lot of other mafia aligned roles. I firmly believe in having the mafia work in ways town may not expect. People don't expect to have results stolen, or get their kill reversed, or suffer a dictatorship in which you have to take the inspector's word that everyone needs to vote, or having a Safeguard effect have hook flavor, or having a truck pass by them notifying targets that they were the locations of transportation instead of notifying the people that were redirected. But all these things gave you a hint after the first time it happened to you as to what was going on, and the village had the numbers to absorb mistakes. You weren't supposed to be able to guess beforehand whether or not it was in the game, you were supposed to be surprised and afraid when you saw someone important die, and be wary that it might be you next if you talk to the wrong person. You talk about traditional balance being WIFOM protection but in practice other people really just don't get involved or learn about the game at all.

Plus I made the design parallel RWBY mafia as closely as possible. My faction there had a Decoy-BG combo and Ozpin had an Expert killer to get around it. There was precedent, even in the result shubaka got that others could relate to.

I don't really get what making it hookable does either. If a hooker got Nico they would have seen she was too skilled and then Nico gets quicklynched lmao.shub was supposed to be a regular martyr as I've said and that would have done the same thing.

I don't think in context it's "inherently unbalanced", however it is unfun for the person that gets killed and I am sorry about that.
i don't think there's any situation in which i pick alliance checker because late game it's nowhere near as useful as kill hooker but meh maybe if the roles that die day 3 are trash + empoof dies then i go alliance checker. is pretty unlikely though

TBH i haven't looked too closely at what dle does so i'll have to take your word for it in terms of how his role is setup and what not. mole roles do suck tho agreed

finding any given mafia role is all luck though. expecting a role to be found early or late is not very reasonable. well, unless you expect certain players to be inspected. i guess in that case that would make sense but still not really.

yeah i think it's fine for the mafia to have unexpected things but the problem takes place when the role just doesn't interact with most roles in the game. do you really feel there was a reasonable hint that there existed an expert killer after twin died (or even i died?)? i don't think so. it was way more reasonable to assume shubaka was mafia which isn't fair to him or I IMO. luckily that didn't matter but still. the roles you all mention work because they have ways to figure them out or play around them. i had no reason to suspect expert killer until i died and it's too late by then. what's the point of including mithril's or shubaka's role if you just have a role that straight bypasses them and doesn't interact with them in any way. if mafia is a logic game, then an ekiller removes all logic from that puzzle which kinda makes useless the point of mafia (aka smogon mafia)

yes "in practice" people don't get involved which leads to people who care about the game doing all the work. sure maybe that's bad i dunno but expert killer isn't a good solution to the problem. the solution is through letting players know that they don't have infinite protection, whether that is through having no protection, protection with a caveat a la mithril's role or no same target protect two nights in a role, or a jailkeeper.

the role being in two walrein games i wouldn't really call "precedent" if only because it's a niche role that doesn't really have much of a foundation in logic. it's a cheap way to get around protection when there are other equally valid ways to do so which don't require frustrating and confusing players.

i don't know what you mean by making it hookable i didn't mention anything about that but i agree that making it hookable makes no difference.

you're right, it's not an unbalanced role (although it comes unblockable kills come close). what it is is a flat out bad role that only works due to its surprise factor. and that surprise factor makes cheap. it incentivizes people to hide information and a certain piece of information that normally people can talk about. you take that away and there's literally no reason to talk to anyone in any game of mafia if they aren't aggregating information. if you want to punish me for claiming and aggregating information, then do so in a way in which i can respond to that by preparing for my death by getting others involved/making there a trade-off for being publicly claimed.

e: when given a choice between vig and tracker there is no world in which you pick tracker. unless for some reason that is a world in which you are stuck with 12 vanilla townies. yeah.
 
Mithril i honestly felt really bad mislynching you, i could tell you weren't mafia from your behavior and if i was town i dont let jalmont mislynch you, ever. but... as mafia it behooved me to let jalmont flail between shubaka, sunny iirc and nico and stay on yourself. then we had to pick eagle4 to mislynch next and force the poor guy into a tough position too =\ this game required so many mislynches on our part to get the win...
I screwed up by claiming to Sam, and I don't really have a good reason for it. I'm normally more cautious than that. Even so though, I just don't understand how people thought I was mafia. My claim just doesn't work as a fake claim. I still can not think of a scenario where I would ever claim that instead of just a normal BG considering the target it pulls onto me.

On top of that, Sam somehow got away with throwing my name in the fire and best I can remember never posting the rest of the day. That just isn't normal Sam behavior.
 
I screwed up by claiming to Sam, and I don't really have a good reason for it. I'm normally more cautious than that. Even so though, I just don't understand how people thought I was mafia. My claim just doesn't work as a fake claim. I still can not think of a scenario where I would ever claim that instead of just a normal BG considering the target it pulls onto me.

On top of that, Sam somehow got away with throwing my name in the fire and best I can remember never posting the rest of the day. That just isn't normal Sam behavior.
Smogon Miller claims are like 100% true. I can't remember any game I've read on this site where someone fakeclaimed miller
 
Ok, I admit it is my fault for being stubborn as fuck and not using my actions, but in my head I was really annoyed no one really approached me these last 2 OC games. Although Twin did ask me for a claim I was in no way letting my role get leaked and Twin just annoyed me for some reason. Since I had talked to no one really I had no idea of who could be who therefor I didn't use my abilities because I wanted to use it on a correct person. Iirc I attempted to use a Vig like ability on Nico? but then I got blocked but I had no idea who I could trust so I kept it to myself ( sheet wasn't leaked yet iirc ). Another time I attempted to use my ability it was on Yeti but then she died so I gained the props of the ability. Now at this point the sheet is leaked and I'm looking at Rssp's role and I felt he was Mafia so I didn't approach him. Although I did approach UncleSam I didn't really approach anyone else because I felt that if I had claim no one would believe me since I had used no actions on anyone therefore no one else could collaborate with my ability. Also I felt that I was already autoscum by everyone still alive at the time.

TLDR . I suck I know I played bad.
 

Yeti

dark saturday
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
?????????? I tried to talk to you several times in Dead Mafia, you said "sheet?" and I said "uh no?" because you hadn't done a single thing to earn it like tell me your claim or results for several cycles so I stopped wasting my time on someone unresponsive.

idk how you can look at the sheet and the 3 kill nights and think rssp1 was mafia... lol you can see that rssp1 was who killed Oddish on the village sheet
 
Honestly at the time I was just hoping the people that were still alive would just realized how stupid I'd be If I was Mafia doing that and realize that I was a stubborn asf town.
 
?????????? I tried to talk to you several times in Dead Mafia, you said "sheet?" and I said "uh no?" because you hadn't done a single thing to earn it like tell me your claim or results for several cycles so I stopped wasting my time on someone unresponsive.

idk how you can look at the sheet and the 3 kill nights and think rssp1 was mafia... lol you can see that rssp1 was who killed Oddish on the village sheet
Yeah I got annoyed at you just asking for my role so I got pissy with you.
 
FWIW I understood what you were doing. Like it seemed clear to me that you had a role that would lose its potency if it were revealed and being bugged to claim was annoying (it was a little to me too). Very early on I thought you might have been on kids, but I figured out pretty quickly you were town and would have tried to stop the lynch.

But I was mafia so I had to allow the lynch to happen.

I mean, "Doesn't claim = mafia" is a pretty dumb rule to go by, King_ case in point.
 
Like, you gotta prove yourself in Mafia. I WANTED you to talk to people and have sheet this game which is why I gave you the most provable role in the game. You'd make an item for someone, it would be clearly beneficial, you'd tell them what it was, and you'd get sheet because people would have reason to trust you.

It's a two way street, and you gotta give to receive.
 
Like, you gotta prove yourself in Mafia. I WANTED you to talk to people and have sheet this game which is why I gave you the most provable role in the game. You'd make an item for someone, it would be clearly beneficial, you'd tell them what it was, and you'd get sheet because people would have reason to trust you.

It's a two way street, and you gotta give to receive.
Yeah I kind of got annoyed early on at other people and myself because I knew I was being an ass. I don't think OC games aren't my forte as I find it hard for myself to trust other people even on OC games.
 
A small blurb

Well my noob ass really enjoyed this! gg to everyone and to my team, honestly, jokes aside, I don't think I would have lasted very long without them!! It certainly has me excited for future games, I'm even curious to see how I'd fare as a villager, but boy was it fun to be bad! Mmmm not sure what else could be added that hasn't been written already. Great art source material haha there was a moment when I had "the entertainer" song stuck in my head for a while. That aside, yeah, I'd for sure feel more confident about potential future games, do I have a 100% grasp yet? hell nah lol

I really thought the theme was cool, but thats my weeb side talking, honestly what I'm most disappointed about was the serious lack of naruto jokes P: (i kid)
I was even inspired to put together a list of recommendations in the spirit of anime and sharing! Jokes aside anime can be a great visual art form for storytelling, and there are so many!


Not sure if I should put the list here or in the postgame thread, in the meantime



EEEYYY haha thanks Empoof honestly I should've seen it XP (might be time for me to sleep lol )
 
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