What have we learned from Gen. V?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Desolate

Banned deucer.
This is my first thread in DST, so let's hope it goes over well, or at least doesn't get locked.

The main idea of this thread is to discuss exactly what the title implies: what have we learned from Gen. V? This question stretches across a broad spectrum, so I'm not going to specify what you can't post, but give you ideas on some things to post.

Some intelligent and interesting discussion topics might be:

  • Have game mechanics drastically changed from Gen. IV to Gen. V? How? Does this make a difference for competitively, or just casual in-game play?
  • How does the metagame reflect the new generation?
  • With the introduction of new moves (along with Pokemon, abilities, etc.), should we consider classifying them in tiers like we do Pokemon?

I'll start off the discussion with a question that's been on my mind: are we making policies because we are anticipating a new generation; if a new generation is announced, how should we plan for it?
 
Without having too much experience, I can definitely point out two key words: "Power creep".

Or rather, GameFreak can't just keep making new copies of old Pokémon moves (for instance, Scratch/Pound which share everything but name, distribution and animation, or Charizard and Typhlosion which have identical stats), they have to pump out something new each generation. And in that basket of new moves and new Pokémon, a solid percentage will be quite usable in the metagame. With more toys to select between, the bar for usability rises. The features that differentiate the new stuff from the old will inevitably make some sort of impact. Be it the tremendous base offensive stats of Excadrill or Haxorus, the metagame-scrambling Team Preview, or the surprise factor of the Air Balloon, if it stands out and can be used, some people will use it to make a splash. GameFreak aren't intentionally trying to overthrow the metagame, they're trying to make something new. And if there is a lack of powerful moves/Pokémon of a certain type, an easy way to make something new and interesting would be adding what's lacking.

A consequence of this would be the fall of defensive strategies, though. Now, there are hard-hitting moves of almost every type out there, there are more fast attackers than ever and a plethora of ways to use them. Sure, Blissey can take special hits just as well as ever, but now there are several more viable Fighting types that make life rather sour for pink blobs. The metagame has become so big that there is impossible to prepare for everything. However, one strategy never goes out of style: Knock your opponent out before he knocks you out. You have plenty of tools to do that with. And more will come pouring in each generation. We might have to put several more restrictions in place in the future, unless we want every tier to be as fast-paced as Ubers.
 
The wealth of common and rare threats does make the game so much more complex. It seems like teams are forced to focus more on practicality; one Pokemon that can adequately cover a number of others instead of specialized counters. The more specific mons might even run a niche move that can help with something the rest of the team can't fit.

It's unbelievable how common Tyranitar is after the plethora of new and common Fighting-types that most sets literally can't beat! Not to mention that Sand's arguably most lethal sweeper is gone. I suppose Tyranitar is important with the Latis in OU and plenty of Ghosts, but as much as I love him I find it tricky to run traditional Sand.

Just a couple thoughts since my time is limited. But... how would a "move tier list" even work? It'd have to be an unofficial thing?
 
The wealth of common and rare threats does make the game so much more complex. It seems like teams are forced to focus more on practicality; one Pokemon that can adequately cover a number of others instead of specialized counters. The more specific mons might even run a niche move that can help with something the rest of the team can't fit.

It's unbelievable how common Tyranitar is after the plethora of new and common Fighting-types that most sets literally can't beat! Not to mention that Sand's arguably most lethal sweeper is gone. I suppose Tyranitar is important with the Latis in OU and plenty of Ghosts, but as much as I love him I find it tricky to run traditional Sand.

Just a couple thoughts since my time is limited. But... how would a "move tier list" even work? It'd have to be an unofficial thing?

Personally, I wouldn't see it very practical to classify moves into tiers, seeing as though it provides no background on which Pokemon is using it, which can change the way a move works altogether. But if I had to class them, I would obviously look at the BP, accuracy, and a value that correlates a bunch of data that considers what Pokemon's popular in the metagame at that time, what abilities, etc.
 
I think quite a few mechanics have really changed how us as players battle in BW as opposed to DP. Dead strategies aside, Team Preview is arguably one of the biggest, if not the biggest change going into this generation aside from the massive influx of Pokemon and moves. Leads, as a whole, aren't nearly as specialized or even viable as they were in DP; I mean, yeah you do have Pokemon like Azelf and weather Pokemon which can lead easily, but just that general concept has really just been thrown out the window since you can pick and choose which Pokemon to lead with each and every match. Teams needed to be able to rely not on the surprise factor of a Pokemon itself, but more and how the lead matchup ends up turning out. At the same time, you could also make the argument that Team Preview made things easier, since a few inferences can allow you to tell when and where the opponent is going to make a move, especially if both you and the opponent know where the holes in your armor & their defenses are at that moment.

tl ; dr team preview is something to learn from, as it forces teams to work without surprise factor which could be used in Gen IV.
 
I think that this generation really made players think more about synergy and how teams intertwine. What I'm saying is, in generation IV, there was a rather popular formula for building a good team, and it served as a cookie cutter. The most used formula consisted of one lead, two special attackers, two physical attackers, and one wall, physical or special.

The Uber tier also seems to have been impacted by the introduction of Politoed and Ninetales' DW abilities; many of the Uber players played primarily because of Kyogre and Groudon, or the Pokemon that summoned permanent weather.
 
But there are still cookie cutter teams in Gen V. Volt turn shells with Tyranitar and terrakion, rain offense, rain stall, sun offense, sun stall, baton pass with espeon...

It was already said before, but I'll just have to restate that this gen showed us that we can't prepare for everything. We give up way too much by running specific counters for top tier threats rather than simply running amazing utility Pokemon or sweepers who can take out your opponent's team before you lose your own. Checks are popularized to the point of having a higher precedence than counters. Scizor is ran because he checks plenty of Pokemon (terrakion being the most important one) and still has many uses aside from doing just that. Golurk counters terrakion...but what else can he do in OU that makes him shine? A few things, but hardly enough to justify a team slot unless your strategy demands it.

I'm also going to outright say this here. Gen V has made more players carefully think about their turns than any of the previous gens did before. I am not saying that players did not think about making careful plays in previous gens. I am simply saying that Gen V makes us consider it more and is causes us to make decent predictions instead of random guesses.

Gen IV scenario: "Oh man, I have my choice scarf heatran out. I can outspeed his gyarados and go with hp electric...BUT WAIT! My opponent may just happen to have a heatran on his team as well, so shouldn't I go with earth power? What do I do..."

You either use earth power as your opponent switches in heatran, who was everywhere, and then you credit yourself for your great predictions skills. Or you use earth power against gyarados and your opponent questions your skill because you made a guess about something your opponent never had on his team to begin with.

Team preview eliminates these random guesses and by already letting you know what you should be looking for, allowing you to build your strategy from there.
 
But there are still cookie cutter teams in Gen V. Volt turn shells with Tyranitar and terrakion, rain offense, rain stall, sun offense, sun stall, baton pass with espeon...

It was already said before, but I'll just have to restate that this gen showed us that we can't prepare for everything. We give up way too much by running specific counters for top tier threats rather than simply running amazing utility Pokemon or sweepers who can take out your opponent's team before you lose your own. Checks are popularized to the point of having a higher precedence than counters. Scizor is ran because he checks plenty of Pokemon (terrakion being the most important one) and still has many uses aside from doing just that. Golurk counters terrakion...but what else can he do in OU that makes him shine? A few things, but hardly enough to justify a team slot unless your strategy demands it.

I'm also going to outright say this here. Gen V has made more players carefully think about their turns than any of the previous gens did before. I am not saying that players did not think about making careful plays in previous gens. I am simply saying that Gen V makes us consider it more and is causes us to make decent predictions instead of random guesses.

Gen IV scenario: "Oh man, I have my choice scarf heatran out. I can outspeed his gyarados and go with hp electric...BUT WAIT! My opponent may just happen to have a heatran on his team as well, so shouldn't I go with earth power? What do I do..."

You either use earth power as your opponent switches in heatran, who was everywhere, and then you credit yourself for your great predictions skills. Or you use earth power against gyarados and your opponent questions your skill because you made a guess about something your opponent never had on his team to begin with.

Team preview eliminates these random guesses and by already letting you know what you should be looking for, allowing you to build your strategy from there.

But there are still cookie cutter teams in Gen V. Volt turn shells with Tyranitar and terrakion, rain offense, rain stall, sun offense, sun stall, baton pass with espeon...

There's some variation and preference there though, whereas in the sets I mentioned it was pretty static with no wiggle room.
 
I think the crippling of Explosion/Self Destruct had a noticeable effect on the metagame. Band Snorlax and Metagross can't rely on it now to have a almost guaranteed KO and Blissey/Chansey are completely safe switch-ins to offensive Heatrans and Gengars (although Toxic and Sub-Pain Split versions respectively, are a pain).

I think this crippling may have been because, with Team Preview, no one is going to click Explosion/Self Destruct early on if they see a Ghost/Defensive Steel on the opposing team. Had they not been crippled Explosion and Self Destruct would have been very strong this generation I think.

Anyway... To reiterate alphatron's point, this neuteuring of Explosion/Self Destruct makes people play less recklessly, they are less likely to throw about exploding 'mons like we did last generation.
 
Going off on a tangent, Gen V made side metagames, such as CC and Clear Skies much more popular, and those tiers turned out to be really enjoyable.
 
i think theres one big lesson here.

"dont judge a book by its cover"

or

"dont judge a pokemon by its stats"

we saw that chandelure and haxorus were very hyped. with 140 and 147 respectable attacking base stats, they seemed sooooo broken. however, these turned out in UU and bottom of OU.
 
I think overall we have learned to handle a lot more threats at once and consider them part of the standard metagame as opposed to thowing them all into uber. If we had the mentality we had last gen, Latias, Latios, Reunicles, Dragonite, Salamence, heck even Terrakion, Haxorus might of all been banned long ago. This may be in part to do with the power creap, but I think it is just us expanding out perception of what is allowed in OU.
 
I think that this generation really made players think more about synergy and how teams intertwine. What I'm saying is, in generation IV, there was a rather popular formula for building a good team, and it served as a cookie cutter. The most used formula consisted of one lead, two special attackers, two physical attackers, and one wall, physical or special.

o.0

Ummm no. That's what noobs did. The better players all had much more diverse approaches to team building.
 
i think theres one big lesson here.

"dont judge a book by its cover"

or

"dont judge a pokemon by its stats"

someone never got excited about rampardos

Desolate said:
I think that this generation really made players think more about synergy and how teams intertwine. What I'm saying is, in generation IV, there was a rather popular formula for building a good team, and it served as a cookie cutter. The most used formula consisted of one lead, two special attackers, two physical attackers, and one wall, physical or special.

The Uber tier also seems to have been impacted by the introduction of Politoed and Ninetales' DW abilities; many of the Uber players played primarily because of Kyogre and Groudon, or the Pokemon that summoned permanent weather.

i really disagree with whoever says that all gen IV teams were "cookie cutter" and based off that formula. I mean, first off that formula is the most simplistic thing i've ever seen and no one thinks like that when building a team, the really basic tenets for 4th gen team building have always been offensive / defensive synergy and a unifying strategy.
secondly ttar, landorus, scizor, rotom w, terrakion, celebi. hows that for ccokie cutter / 90% of smogon ladder, that shit never really happened in gen iv. except maybe stall teams were always the same but whatever

also the uber tier wasnt impacted by ninetales and politoed, i dont get what your saying there at all, people play ubers because its a whole different kinda metagame.

anyway,

5th gen teaches us that gamefreak is getting closer and closer to making our little scene here a bit of a mess with its power creep

edit: ninjad
 
Nowhere in my post did I say all IV teams were based off that, and in no way am I trying to discard any hard work that players did in generation IV.

I'm saying from experience that I've noticed a change in the Uber tier, I'm not being definitive or basing anything off of usage statistics. Please read posts more carefully beforehand.
 
yeah alright, in any case i also think your conclusion that synergy has become more important this gen is also kinda off. if anything with all the new extremely heavy hitters, terrak/hax etc, and outrageous set up mons like dragonite, this gen is in fact less about synergy and more centered around momentum and enforcing your game plan on the opponent (this would be a playstyle i guess ive learned from gen v). weather wars and volt turn being the most obvious examples. obviously synergy is still there and necessary and stuff but yeah, less prevalent id say.
 
yeah alright, in any case i also think your conclusion that synergy has become more important this gen is also kinda off. if anything with all the new extremely heavy hitters, terrak/hax etc, and outrageous set up mons like dragonite, this gen is in fact less about synergy and more centered around momentum and enforcing your game plan on the opponent (this would be a playstyle i guess ive learned from gen v). weather wars and volt turn being the most obvious examples. obviously synergy is still there and necessary and stuff but yeah, less prevalent id say.

debate me hard i love it

I'm not going to entertain you if you're going to say things unconstructive like "debate me hard", then it just makes it obvious you're trolling. For future reference to other posters as well, this thread's goal was to be a compilation based off of discussions in this forum. Intelligent discussions, not ones that facilitate two people bickering back and forth about semantics.
 
DREAM WORLD. I had to get that off my chest. But seriously, that and Team Preview were the biggest changes. Also the new Pokemon. (there were a lot of them, 156?)
 
Garchomp ~ When you see this bastard in hell Ubers, tell him he's still a douche!

Suspect ~ We still argue. A lot.

Excadrill ~ Maybe 604 speed during sandstorm, Swords Dance, and STAB EQ was too good after all...

Team Preview ~ HUG ME BROTHER (Seriously, team preview prevented a bunch of Pokemon from going to ubers. Dealing with shit like Volcorona or Terrakion with team preview? Yuck)

Mew ~ Mew is NOT Uber. Hey alright ♪

Wobbuffet ~ Wobbuffet is NOT Uber. Nobody cares

Dream world abilities ~ Some Pokemon got a reason for living (Cloyster, i'm looking at you bro) some Pokemon got fucked (R.I.P. Blaziken) and some Pokemon just got trolled (Chandelure)

Haxorus ~ They took everything that was wrong with Rampardos, and took it in the right direction.

Rotom-W ~ Equal parts awesome, Equal parts bastard.

Blissey / Chansey ~ Way, way, way less common than before. No problems here.

Evolite ~ An awesome item that makes 1st or 2nd stage pokemon viable in a bunch of tiers.

Latios & Hydreigon ~ Clearly they metaphorically represent Mario & Luigi. Think about it.
 
But there are still cookie cutter teams in Gen V. Volt turn shells with Tyranitar and terrakion, rain offense, rain stall, sun offense, sun stall, baton pass with espeon...

It was already said before, but I'll just have to restate that this gen showed us that we can't prepare for everything. We give up way too much by running specific counters for top tier threats rather than simply running amazing utility Pokemon or sweepers who can take out your opponent's team before you lose your own. Checks are popularized to the point of having a higher precedence than counters. Scizor is ran because he checks plenty of Pokemon (terrakion being the most important one) and still has many uses aside from doing just that. Golurk counters terrakion...but what else can he do in OU that makes him shine? A few things, but hardly enough to justify a team slot unless your strategy demands it.

I'm also going to outright say this here. Gen V has made more players carefully think about their turns than any of the previous gens did before. I am not saying that players did not think about making careful plays in previous gens. I am simply saying that Gen V makes us consider it more and is causes us to make decent predictions instead of random guesses.

Gen IV scenario: "Oh man, I have my choice scarf heatran out. I can outspeed his gyarados and go with hp electric...BUT WAIT! My opponent may just happen to have a heatran on his team as well, so shouldn't I go with earth power? What do I do..."

You either use earth power as your opponent switches in heatran, who was everywhere, and then you credit yourself for your great predictions skills. Or you use earth power against gyarados and your opponent questions your skill because you made a guess about something your opponent never had on his team to begin with.

Team preview eliminates these random guesses and by already letting you know what you should be looking for, allowing you to build your strategy from there.

I think alphatron has made a great point here.

I didn't play much competitively in gen 4 OU and have dabbled in gen 5 OU while focusing mostly on RU.

As RU has no seemingly direct comparison to gen 4 metagames, it can be hard to have a strong comparison perspective. However, I've mostly stuck to RU because some of my favorites are a little more competitive and the general lack of weather.

I've noticed the following:

Weather! it was pretty much Sandstream before, which just helped undermine the opponent's bulk slightly... now weather wars are a constant extra aspect to prepare for

Team Preview. This affects every tier and is honestly my least favorite change from DPP. I prided myself on surprise pokemon and sets which could be more easily worked around if the opponent knew/could intelligently guess what was coming. This is now much harder to pull off, although admittedly I appreciate the ease of prediction from a defensive perspective.

Eviolite. This really makes a difference in RU because there are more things that can use it and some of the most potent defensive threats are actually eviolite users. Not a huge change of the metagame per say, but I like the additional diversity.

Volt-Turn abuse. U-turn was very important for scouting, now it's mostly for offensive pressure and to gain momentum (not to mention somewhat annoying). Not that u-turn wasn't effective and widely used back in DPP, but I think it is far more widely abused now.

Power (and speed creep) pretty self explanatory here.


-As alphatron described, I often had immense satisfaction by predicting a switch to a pokemon that I didn't even know the opponent had (much like the Earth power Heatran scenario). While still nice, I don't enjoy nailing the (known) predicted Gligar switch with ice beam, for example, quite as much...

And hard counters aren't always as important because team preview can help avoid the situation when you know you have a disadvantage.
 
Nowhere in my post did I say all IV teams were based off that, and in no way am I trying to discard any hard work that players did in generation IV.

I'm saying from experience that I've noticed a change in the Uber tier, I'm not being definitive or basing anything off of usage statistics. Please read posts more carefully beforehand.

And I'm saying that your formula is still off base. This formula that you described basically did not apply to anyone that made it to the shoddy leaderboard on a consistent basis.
 
And I'm saying that your formula is still off base. This formula that you described basically did not apply to anyone that made it to the shoddy leaderboard on a consistent basis.

Being lower on the leaderboard is not relevant whatsoever. I'm saying overall; I'm not specifically talking about those who have higher ranks.
 
Being lower on the leaderboard is not relevant whatsoever. I'm saying overall; I'm not specifically talking about those who have higher ranks.

It just seems very odd to me. Why would we want to define and analyse a generation through tactics that don't work? Lesser players do a lot of things, they use creative sets that don't work, they use cute pokemon that fail hard on the ladder... the list goes on. That's all well and fine of course, it's their decision afterall, but it would be weird for anyone to say that this was a defining element of 4th gen for example. There might have been formulaic trends in 4th gen that changed with the meta, but the type of formula you listed was only really used by players who have just started playing the game for a few weeks. I honestly think that your observation just stems from you being a better player than you were in gen 4. You're just describing your internal changes and mistaking it for the external world.
 
It just seems very odd to me. Why would we want to define and analyse a generation through tactics that don't work? Lesser players do a lot of things, they use creative sets that don't work, they use cute pokemon that fail hard on the ladder... the list goes on. That's all well and fine of course, it's their decision afterall, but it would be weird for anyone to say that this was a defining element of 4th gen for example. There might have been formulaic trends in 4th gen that changed with the meta, but the type of formula you listed was only really used by players who have just started playing the game for a few weeks. I honestly think that your observation just stems from you being a better player than you were in gen 4. You're just describing your internal changes and mistaking it for the external world.

As I said, I'm taking it as a whole and not excluding players, it just happens that the bulk of players are inexperienced and stick to a rigid set of protocols that work for veteran players.
 
One of the biggest things to happen this generation, more than DPP, was the huge list of suspects. There were the obvious ones like Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Blaziken, and Garchomp, but then there were the more unexpected ones:

-Reuniclus - a mono-Psychic-type with a very precise movepool and somewhat middling defenses. Upon further inspection you find its ability Magic Guard, Calm Mind, Recover, perfect neutral coverage with Psychic / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball, the ability to support itself with Trick Room AND hit hard with a drawback-free Life Orb (OTR Bronzong ain't got nothing to show)... the list goes on.
-Volcarona - First you see that Bug/Fire typing offers a disgusting 4x Stealth Rock weakness. Look closer and you'll find one of the most ridiculous boosting moves in the game in Quiver Dance, powerful dual STAB with Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Fiery Dance and Bug Buzz, Hidden Power of choice for coverage. If it really wanted to, it could recover off that 50% with Synthesis. This thing got faster and bulkier each turn and the only hope of beating it was stalling it or making a ton of sacrifices that eventually unraveled your whole team.
-Dragonite - Excellent typing, stats and mixed movepool but outclassed by its Dragon brethren (insert cliché Dragonite overview here), unfortunate Speed Tier. Oh wait, Multiscale prevents it from getting mauled by a single Ice Beam, bulky spreads can be used to help get some Dragon Dances under its belt, Outrage is ridiculously powerful, Roost reactivates Multiscale... again, the list goes way beyond that.

The Gen 5 metagame put us into a ban mentality. Suspects for the sake of suspect tests (and, one can argue, for the sake of check marks and TC badges!). It can be argued that the craze that this metagame started eventually led to the downfall of suspect tests! It seems that we are finally learning to cope with what Gamefreak handed us - power creep, great new abilities, Dream World, reviving mediocre Pokemon (Politoed, Ninetales, and Cloyster I'm looking at you), buffing great pre-existing Pokemon, abilities, and moves, and Team Preview. We have learned to send in our Scarf Terrakion the second your opponent's Volcarona tries to Quiver Dance. We have learned to muscle through Reuniclus (Choice Band Scizor is great at this). We have realized just how important Stealth Rock is for breaking Dragonite's Multiscale.
We have learned that we should just start playing DW but that's neither here nor there :-p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top