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What is the best set for a Pokemon?

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I think people are getting their wires crossed, this isn't a thread about whether or not people should be playing with pokemon/teams that aren't geared to win-at-all-costs, or be derided for not doing so. The real message of this thread is that people should think about what an individual Poke is best at if they want to use it in a competitive team (as opposed to a team of favourites), not merely slapping an existing set on it that something else can do it better anyway.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I saw a thread a while ago in which people said you shouldn't take other Pokemon into account when determining a good set, and I say that's incorrect. If another Pokemon can do the same job better, why not use that other Pokemon?
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Sometimes it's because you need multiples. People played Golduck (and on some occasions Poliwrath!) in RBY simply because Amnesia was a game-winner, despite Golduck being more or less strictly-worse-than-Humiliator.

I don't quite agree with Fish's post in that this thread isn't slamming the use of unorthodox sets at all, rather, it's about using standard sets on unorthodox Pokemon. As stated in the OP:
Those sets may be powerful, but they are outclassed by other Pokemon with the same set, so there's no reason to use them on Vileplume, except in some rare cases ("I like Vileplume's better defenses on my Swords Dancer!"). However, Vileplume does have some interesting moves in Aromatherapy, which can be combined with other moves to make sure your Vileplume isn't just a worse Blissey / Celebi
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obi i totally agree with you, i mean whats the point of using a pokemon that is not competetive when there is a stronger one out who acn do the same job for you. This doesnt mean that oh yeah if we want to win and use powerful pokemon lets fill the team with tyranitar and many 600base powered pokemon. It just means that if you are trying to use a combo and there are pokemon who can use it better, use that one. meaning combos doesnt mean i am comparing an aroma soft bliss with a heal bell recover celebi! well people can use their favorites in other servers or there are battle styles such as uu where they can use it. in competetive battlin ur words bring up the real way how should it be.
 
Prio said:
Having Gengar, Skaramory, Blissy, Slalamence, Gyarados, and Tyaranitar on the same team gets dull and repetitive, same for those that only use their top 6 favorites, mix it up, you don't have to use the same shit over and over too win. Which was the point of my last post.
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But who says that is a strong team? Individually yes, each of those pokemon is among the best available, but a Pokemon is only as strong as it's counter will let it be - and almost everyone building a team will try to counter all of these Pokes.
 
Player A favors pokemon X over pokemon Y. They share a commonly used moveset 1, and pokemon Y pulls off the set more effectively than pokemon X. However, pokemon X also has a second moveset, 2, that cannot be used by pokemon Y. So, in competitive gaming, pokemon X is usually seen using moveset 2. However, player A runs a pokemon X with moveset 1, for whatever reason.

Meanwhile, player B has a pokemon Z, using moveset 3, which is the best counter to pokemon X to counter the more commonly used moveset 2. However, moveset 3 falls to moveset 1.

Players A and B battle, and eventually, player A's pokemon X with moveset 1 is pitted against player B's pokemon Z with moveset 3. Player A has observed that pokemon Z almost always carries moveset 3, and he knows that, if player B's pokemon Z is carrying moveset 3, his pokemon X will beat it. Player B (incorrectly) assumes that player A's pokemon X is carrying moveset 2, and this causes his pokemon Z to get fainted, and down one pokemon, player B loses the match.
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I have to absolutely agree with this. As I'm not fully integrated into D/P I give an ADV example:

For instance, we all know that Blissey is 99% of the cases far better than Miltank in TWaving and Seismic Tossing. It's been said in Smogon NOT to use Miltank as an inferior Blissey.

HOWEVER, it's not correct to assume then that the only set Miltank should use is Body Slam/Curse/Milk Drink/Heal Bell (or variations). Someone might then bring in Gengar or Shuckle to exploit this, simply to get crippled with TWave in Gengar's case or with Seismic Toss in Shucle's case.

What I want to say is, though someone cannot state that Miltank is close to Blissey in said terms, I also think we should avoid saying "Miltank is useless with said set because Blissey outclasses her", because she's not SO useless, it could catch some people off-guard.
 
RiCHaN said:
I have to absolutely agree with this. As I'm not fully integrated into D/P I give an ADV example:

For instance, we all know that Blissey is 99% of the cases far better than Miltank in TWaving and Seismic Tossing. It's been said in Smogon NOT to use Miltank as an inferior Blissey.

HOWEVER, it's not correct to assume then that the only set Miltank should use is Body Slam/Curse/Milk Drink/Heal Bell (or variations). Someone might then bring in Gengar or Shuckle to exploit this, simply to get crippled with TWave in Gengar's case or with Seismic Toss in Shucle's case.

What I want to say is, though someone cannot state that Miltank is close to Blissey in said terms, I also think we should avoid saying "Miltank is useless with said set because Blissey outclasses her", because she's not SO useless, it could catch some people off-guard.
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This is true for a certain extent. Nobody expects a blissey-type moveset on Miltank at all, and you can get some surprise cripples/kills this way.

However, as I stated before, relying on the element of surprise is bad. In this case, if someone has never played a miltank before and has no idea what moveset it is, it will play cautiously, expecting everything. This ruins your plan of surprise.
 
relying on the element of surprise is bad
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I find this to be quite a drastical statement. Fully relying on surprise will quite sure lead you to loss, but the same could be said for fully relying on the standards. I've seen lots of RMTs composed of the most common Pokémon with the most common movesets asking why they didn't work as good against experienced players. Well most of the times simply changing a single move to a surprise move could be decisive. Is Gyarados coming into Vaporeon all the time and ruining your fun? Instead of changing most of your team you can simply add the nasty Hidden Power Electric in Vappy.

I once won in a tourney (not from Smogon .-.) using a Baton Pass team, which 6-0ed most of the all so common defensive teams who didn't expect this at all. I'm pretty sure that if I had chosen standard pokemon with standard movesets I wouldn't have gone too far, because I wasn't as experienced as those people in battling.

I consider that the clue to success is combining surprise with standard. If you read the Warstories, most of the times the player who got an edge over the other one was either by catching the other one off-guard or either by getting a favourable hax (and nobody wants to rely on hax, is there?).
 
RiCHaN said:
HOWEVER, it's not correct to assume then that the only set Miltank should use is Body Slam/Curse/Milk Drink/Heal Bell (or variations). Someone might then bring in Gengar or Shuckle to exploit this, simply to get crippled with TWave in Gengar's case or with Seismic Toss in Shucle's case.
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Miltank separates itself from Blissey in DP thanks to Scrappy though, which ensures that it can paralyze any pokemon in the game on the switch (besides Hitmonlee and Persian) and deal STABbed, respectable damage with one move, so it really doesn't need Thunder Wave and Seismic Toss as much as one could argue it did in Advance.
 
The original post gave several examples of why you should never use a certain set on a pokemon if another pokemon does it better, but that only works when you're considering sets by themselves. For all practical purposes, you can't take a certain set in a vacuum. For example, in Advance Loki had a team that led with a Sunny Day Tyranitar, which set up for Moltres. Obviously, all by itself that Tyranitar is useless, but, as someone else said, pokemon is 6v6, not 1v1.

Another example mentioned in the first post is the Aromatherapy Vileplume vs Heal Bell Celebi. You stated that Celebi does the job better, but most Aromatherapy Vileplume carry Sleep Powder, which Celebi doesn't learn. In addition, Heal Bell can't cure the status of Soundproof pokemon such as Mr. Mime, AND Celebi is 4x weak to Bug wheras Vileplume isn't weak to it at all.

While I like the concept of a "best set" for a pokemon, there are too many things to consider for it to be useful.

EDIT: Also, the Tangrowth/Heatran combo topic right next to this one is also a good example; surely having two fire moves on Heatran can't be its best set!
 
COalex said:
The original post gave several examples of why you should never use a certain set on a pokemon if another pokemon does it better, but that only works when you're considering sets by themselves. For all practical purposes, you can't take a certain set in a vacuum. For example, in Advance Loki had a team that led with a Sunny Day Tyranitar, which set up for Moltres. Obviously, all by itself that Tyranitar is useless, but, as someone else said, pokemon is 6v6, not 1v1.

Another example mentioned in the first post is the Aromatherapy Vileplume vs Heal Bell Celebi. You stated that Celebi does the job better, but most Aromatherapy Vileplume carry Sleep Powder, which Celebi doesn't learn. In addition, Heal Bell can't cure the status of Soundproof pokemon such as Mr. Mime, AND Celebi is 4x weak to Bug wheras Vileplume isn't weak to it at all.

While I like the concept of a "best set" for a pokemon, there are too many things to consider for it to be useful.

EDIT: Also, the Tangrowth/Heatran combo topic right next to this one is also a good example; surely having two fire moves on Heatran can't be its best set!
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That Hearan set is supposed to be a Fire equivalent of Choice Specs Salamence, I suppose, and Salamence runs two Dragon moves. :)

(Although Fire is worse than Dragon, it gets the Sunny Day boost)
 
But what if a pokemon does every set better than another? You'd be saying there's pretty much no reason to use the second pokemon except in UU. I can't think of a situation like this right now, but I'm sure there is one.
 
General Tso said:
But what if a pokemon does every set better than another? You'd be saying there's pretty much no reason to use the second pokemon except in UU. I can't think of a situation like this right now, but I'm sure there is one.
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Yep. No reason to use Manectric except in UU when Raikou exists. We went over this in the thread already -- read.
 
I'm sure there's something that Manectric learns that Raikou doesn't, otherwise, there would be no point for Manectric to have been even made. I meant to say what if a pokemon learns every move another pokemon learns but can put them to better use. Raikou sure doesn't have all the Fangs (Though I can't say that Manectric puts them to really good use) So there's at least something for Manectric to use that Raikou can't.
 
General Tso said:
I'm sure there's something that Manectric learns that Raikou doesn't, otherwise, there would be no point for Manectric to have been even made. I meant to say what if a pokemon learns every move another pokemon learns but can put them to better use. Raikou sure doesn't have all the Fangs (Though I can't say that Manectric puts them to really good use) So there's at least something for Manectric to use that Raikou can't.
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Being attainable for most is something Manectric did. Game Freak does not create this game soley for competitive players.
 
Miltank is much more physically bulky, not to mention fast. It's nothing like Blissey, even using the exact same set. You have to look at stats as much as you do movesets. ;/
 
I believe there are three factors that affect a team's chance of success if the creator's favorite Pokemon is in it. 1: The Pokemon's tier, 2: How it fits in the team and 3: Features that another similar Pokemon doesn't have.

If your favorite Pokemon happens to be OU, you may have a decent chance of success regardless. I mean, Lucario's my favorite Pokemon. Am I gonna lose if I use him? If he doesn't have a proper purpose, then yes. Every Pokemon in a properly built team has a reason for being there. If it has no good purpose, what's the point of having it? Here's an example to make things less confusing. I have a team of Tyranitar, Heatran, Metagross, Alakazam, Porygon2 and a missing space. I'm looking for a mixed sweeper for the final slot. I shouldn't pick Lucario because he's my favorite. I've already got 3 ground weaknesses and Lucario doesn't alleviate it. He just makes it worse. Salamence is a much better choice for the slot, as he gives the team a much needed Ground immunity. As for the features bit, here's another example. We all know Infernape outclasses Blaziken. Why? Because he's faster. But what does Blaziken have that Infernape doesn't? Higher offensive stats, Reversal, Baton Pass and Agility. It has to be played to its strengths though, because if you don't, you might as well pick Infernape.
 
Ahhhh please please please don't thread necro, its really frustrating!

Although your post was actually decent, although to actually add something to this now unburied thread, I'm gonna re-iterate a point made earlier. Just because Infernape does a certain set better then Blaziken for example, doesn't mean that Blaziken HAS to be an AgiliPasser/Reversal Sweeper. If a pokemon is outclassed using a certain set, but is more well known for another set then the element of surprise actually is something it has over the other pokemon in terms of usability.

P.S Please please please let the dead R.I.P in future, if a thread is this old start your own discussion based on the same topic, and link to this one if you wish.
 
I feel this thread (or at least the original point of this thread) ties in very closely to a recent Dragonite Thread. What that threat pointed out is that Dragonite's most common set was a Jolly Dragon Dancer. It then went on to mathematically show how that Dragonite was worse than Dragon Dance Salamence in every single respect. So while, in a vacuum, Dragon Dancer seems like the best set for Dragonite, in practice it is not, due to the presence of Salamence. This makes Dragonite's ACTUAL best set something like SubPuncher or Aromatherapy/Thunderwave/Light Screen Supporter.

The problem with this thread, however, is that the number of cases in OU where there are two incredibly similar Pokemon and one does a certain job much better than the other, thus making an alternate set better for that other Pokemon, is quite rare. Generally there is some sort of attribute that makes it worthwhile to run that other Pokemon. For example, Gyarados versus Salamence. If you look at both of their Dragon Dancing sets, it might appear that Salamence always outclasses Gyarados - they are both X/flying, where x is a great offensive and defensive type, and they both have intimidate. Salamence has higher Attack and Speed stats and access to a stronger STAB move (Outrage), as well as the Special attack to run Fire Blast to help deal with its counters and better Physical defense giving it more opportunities to switch in with Intimidate. However, in practice, Gyarados has several attributes that make him sometimes superior: resistance to Bullet Punch, neutrality to Ice Shard, and access to Taunt.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see this was a nerco'd thread. Feel free to ignore this.
 
I think the only instance to use another inferior pokemon to run X set is because of the unexpected factor which should never be underestimated as it can easily turn the favour in a battle. Other than that i would assume it was common sense to use the best pokemon for the job. I view pokemon as tools for accomplishing certain roles ie if you need a Dragon resist and a problem with swampert as well as mix mence you would use the mixrachi set. But if youre problem was slightly different i.e. you did not need to outspeed mence but needed a more reliable dragon resist you would use mix metagross.

Edit: Did not realise this thread had been the subject of thread necromancy.
 
What's so wrong with posting in a thread that's been around for a while? I didn't read this thread the first time around, and the person who brought it back up did so with a well-thought and contributory post. Is it fair to rail on him for continuing a discussion, just because no one had added to it in a while?
 
wildfire393 said:
I feel this thread (or at least the original point of this thread) ties in very closely to a recent Dragonite Thread. What that threat pointed out is that Dragonite's most common set was a Jolly Dragon Dancer. It then went on to mathematically show how that Dragonite was worse than Dragon Dance Salamence in every single respect. So while, in a vacuum, Dragon Dancer seems like the best set for Dragonite, in practice it is not, due to the presence of Salamence. This makes Dragonite's ACTUAL best set something like SubPuncher or Aromatherapy/Thunderwave/Light Screen Supporter.
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When this thread was made, Platinum didn't exist, so Salamence did not have access to Outrage (and the OU Garchomp doesn't have Dragon Dance).
 
All right then, I use a Scarf'ed Scyther with Reversal and an odd HP.
I thrive on SR, as if I come in on two SRs, I get down to 1 HP and I start throwing around Reversals.
This is, of course, a late game tactic.
I don't believe that there are any pokemon that can do the "2 SR 1 HP Scarf'ed reversal" set.
Correct me if I'm wrong, however. It does catch people off guard, and can do wonders in the late game.


EDIT: I feel to the necro post as well. I should really start reading the time of the first posts of a thread.
 
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