When did Pokémon lose its way?

[GarchompPit]

I enjoyed every single main pokemon game..Hell I even liked the Ranger series and even today I like from time to time to play a Mystery Dungeon Game..
I have to admit the anime is nothing to be proud of but after 800+ episodes,16 movies and a lot of specials what more do you expect..It's far from perfect but it's decent nonetheless...
So imo Pokemon never lost its way..

 

[noobcubed]

Pokemon has just changed IMO, not lost its way.

Incoming massive wodge of text that probably goes a fair way towards confirming my Nintendo fanboyism.

Interesting you should say that. IMO Pokemon has not changed, and that is exactly why it has lost its way. So, pretty much exactly the opposite opinion. The formula has remained the same forever - get some badges, fight off the bad guys (which apparently can be done just through Pokemon battles, it's not as if they ever turn round and say "So what? Our pets got beaten up by some cocky ten-year-old's pets? How does that foil our plan for world domination exactly?"), beat the E4. You're basically playing the same game over and over again, the only thing different is the Pokemon, and even then several of them are becoming clones of previous-generation Pokemon (though in fairness this is markedly less true of gen VI). It just doesn't seem like Game Freak are ever going to offer us anything different in terms of game design, their efforts go mostly into Pokemon design and battle mechanics.

I will readily admit that deviating from the formula or doing something different might produce a worse game. The example I always give is Pikmin 2, which to me, was not nearly as fun to play as its predecessor. For me, Pikmin 2 felt a lot like playing Diablo, but with Pikmin (hopefully anyone else who has played both these games will understand what I'm talking about), as most of the game was spent crawling through underground dungeons, fighting off monsters with your Pikmin, and there was relatively little of the puzzle solving / exploration / multitasking / resource management elements that made the first game so fun for me. The fact it was largely underground also took away from the bright, even slightly trippy feel of the Pikmin overworld. But still, I welcome that Nintendo developed it. Rather than just remaking the first game with different puzzles they decided to throw wholly new gameplay elements into the mix. What's the point in remaking the first game when I could just play through that again? (Then again, what's the point in making Pikmin 2 when I could just play Diablo?)

On the other hand, take Super Mario Sunshine. This game was more different to Super Mario 64 than anyone expected, and, while I know it's sometimes thought to be a bit of a black sheep, it's honestly bucketloads of fun. In fairness I feel the reason that it isn't as universally lauded as 64 and Galaxy is because it is so different that people don't know what to make of it. Obviously FLUDD has the biggest effect on the game, and most of the levels are designed with it in mind, but the number of ways it can be used stop it being too repetitive; it also allows you to think outside the box and look for less obvious routes through levels, in a way that I never really got again in any game until Portal came along. Voice acting schmoice acting, that seemed out of place, but even the attempt to go beyond "Peach has been kidnapped? Oh noes!" is pretty laudable. After Super Mario 64 basically invented the 3D platformer it might have been tempting to make a clone. And if they had, we would never have got to fling Mario around with his water-filled jetpack and the world would be a poorer place.

If Game Freak did this? Well they might produce another Pikmin 2, a game that totally misses the point of the franchise it represents (yeah, maybe I should stop bashing this particular game, it's not that bad). Or they might create something really cool and innovative. If the former happens? Well, it's still different, it might appeal to somebody. If it's a success? Great, I would hope that would give them the confidence to play things a little less safe in the future.

However, I won't hold my breath. Pokemon X and Y are getting good reviews and healthy sales. Maybe if Pokemon were not a third-party series then Nintendo would take a few more risks, as they would still have other franchises to fall back on should they turn out an unsuccessful experiment. But, since nobody would have even heard of Game Freak if it weren't for Pokemon, they really need every game to sell. And so far it seems they will achieve that most reliably if they don't change a winning formula. So Pokemon games will forever remain the same. Which is a shame.

 

[farranpoison]

Incoming massive wodge of text that probably goes a fair way towards confirming my Nintendo fanboyism.

Interesting you should say that. IMO Pokemon has not changed, and that is exactly why it has lost its way. So, pretty much exactly the opposite opinion. The formula has remained the same forever - get some badges, fight off the bad guys (which apparently can be done just through Pokemon battles, it's not as if they ever turn round and say "So what? Our pets got beaten up by some cocky ten-year-old's pets? How does that foil our plan for world domination exactly?"), beat the E4. You're basically playing the same game over and over again, the only thing different is the Pokemon, and even then several of them are becoming clones of previous-generation Pokemon (though in fairness this is markedly less true of gen VI). It just doesn't seem like Game Freak are ever going to offer us anything different in terms of game design, their efforts go mostly into Pokemon design and battle mechanics.

I will readily admit that deviating from the formula or doing something different might produce a worse game. The example I always give is Pikmin 2, which to me, was not nearly as fun to play as its predecessor. For me, Pikmin 2 felt a lot like playing Diablo, but with Pikmin (hopefully anyone else who has played both these games will understand what I'm talking about), as most of the game was spent crawling through underground dungeons, fighting off monsters with your Pikmin, and there was relatively little of the puzzle solving / exploration / multitasking / resource management elements that made the first game so fun for me. The fact it was largely underground also took away from the bright, even slightly trippy feel of the Pikmin overworld. But still, I welcome that Nintendo developed it. Rather than just remaking the first game with different puzzles they decided to throw wholly new gameplay elements into the mix. What's the point in remaking the first game when I could just play through that again? (Then again, what's the point in making Pikmin 2 when I could just play Diablo?)

On the other hand, take Super Mario Sunshine. This game was more different to Super Mario 64 than anyone expected, and, while I know it's sometimes thought to be a bit of a black sheep, it's honestly bucketloads of fun. In fairness I feel the reason that it isn't as universally lauded as 64 and Galaxy is because it is so different that people don't know what to make of it. Obviously FLUDD has the biggest effect on the game, and most of the levels are designed with it in mind, but the number of ways it can be used stop it being too repetitive; it also allows you to think outside the box and look for less obvious routes through levels, in a way that I never really got again in any game until Portal came along. Voice acting schmoice acting, that seemed out of place, but even the attempt to go beyond "Peach has been kidnapped? Oh noes!" is pretty laudable. After Super Mario 64 basically invented the 3D platformer it might have been tempting to make a clone. And if they had, we would never have got to fling Mario around with his water-filled jetpack and the world would be a poorer place.

If Game Freak did this? Well they might produce another Pikmin 2, a game that totally misses the point of the franchise it represents (yeah, maybe I should stop bashing this particular game, it's not that bad). Or they might create something really cool and innovative. If the former happens? Well, it's still different, it might appeal to somebody. If it's a success? Great, I would hope that would give them the confidence to play things a little less safe in the future.

However, I won't hold my breath. Pokemon X and Y are getting good reviews and healthy sales. Maybe if Pokemon were not a third-party series then Nintendo would take a few more risks, as they would still have other franchises to fall back on should they turn out an unsuccessful experiment. But, since nobody would have even heard of Game Freak if it weren't for Pokemon, they really need every game to sell. And so far it seems they will achieve that most reliably if they don't change a winning formula. So Pokemon games will forever remain the same. Which is a shame.

Pokemon did something different in Colosseum and XD: Gale of Darkness. Also the Mystery Dungeon series and Ranger. None of them got a lot of positive reviews.

It was, though, as you say, different. I personally loved Colosseum and the Mystery Dungeon series (never got to play GoD sadly, or touch the Ranger series at all). They were a bit more interesting than the tried and true formula simply because they were different. Now, Mystery Dungeon is starting to fall into the same pattern as the main games: same ish gameplay, plot, etc. Colosseum and GoD, though, is something I'd like to see more of in the future. Hell, the 3DS can basically do Gamecube graphics (sort of) and with Pokemon now in 3D, something like Colosseum coming out in the future isn't so Farfetch'd.

 

[ANinyMouse]

The point about useless Gen 5 team is true. I'm looking at all my teams in this gen, I barely used one pokemon from gen 5, now yes I use HO exclusively but I'm sure many will agree with me that in most teams, gen 5 isn't there period.

I don't know about you, but many, many of my all-time favorites are from Gen 5. Scolipede, Volcarona, Golurk, Serperior, Galvantula, Terrakion, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Chandelure, Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Conkeldurr... Some are top-tier battlers, most have beautiful colors and interesting concepts.

If anything, Gen 4 had the greatest dearth of new, viable and intreresting pokemon, pre-Platinum. Even so, Gen 4 has it's own group of A-1 Pokemon and is by no means totally devoid of quality.

Generation 3 is pretty much all over the map, as far as balance and concept strength are concerned. Anybody on here remember the 202 metagame? Wow, now that was an awkward time in Pokemon (before the physical-special split, too). While there are several powerful/awesome Pokemon, and a good amount of boring/terrible ones as well, most of them are kind of middling, so I never had strong opinions about Gen 3. Kinda "meh."

I applaud Game Freak for generation 5. Before everybody figured out that all the old Pokemon were coming back after all, it was a showcase of their skill level. If Black & White 1 had only ever had Unova Pokemon (with previous gens returning in Black & White 2), it still would have been a fantastic and interesting game, since so many paradigms were challenged... Even the storyline of BW1 was and is still the best of any Pokemon game. BW2 are the most content-rich games to date... So many daily events, grottos, the battle tree/city, PWT for pure fanservice overload...

I agree with many here that Pokemon games have remained largely the same over the years, however. If the games have failed to keep your interest at this point, it's probably because you outgrew them. The core experience has always been there.

I will say, however, that the story of Gen 6 has many serious problems, and is a huge step back from Gen 5.

 

[Hrothgar]

Pokemon lost its way?

Have you played through gen 1 recently?

I'm sorry but, while extremely flavorful and nostalgic, rby were utterly terrible from a technical/balanced standpoint. While the designs were overwhelmingly solid (don't get me wrong, it still had its jinxes and hitmons) the stats and moves given to most pokemon made them completely unusable at the time. And then there were the damn golbats with confuse ray...

The point is, the 6th gen is a technical marvel. The games are vastly improved gen by gen. You can say 6th gen pokes are lame (literally the only 6th gen pokemon I'm raising is yveltal; the 5 others I've raised are old pokes that have improved like scolipede and mawile), but 5th gen was by far the gen that I've raised the most pokemon from (it still had its stinkers).

So I don't understand how it's lost it's way. These are some of the greatest games ever made and they are still fun as hell at any age. I've personally been playing since blue; some of my pokemon are from sapphire and I bought that game the day it was released, making my gardevoir older than my youngest sibling. And I still played Y with the same zeal I've always had.

Tldr: these games are friggin awesome, I don't get the op.

 

[noobcubed]

Pokemon lost its way?

Have you played through gen 1 recently?

I'm sorry but, while extremely flavorful and nostalgic, rby were utterly terrible from a technical/balanced standpoint.

RBY was from a different era. It's like saying that the special effects in old Star Wars, Doctor Who, etc, aren't on a par with modern Star Wars, Doctor Who, etc. There's far more to a game than technical wizardry, much like any other artform.

The point is, the 6th gen is a technical marvel. The games are vastly improved gen by gen.

I really don't believe that XY is particularly impressive from a technical standpoint considering the era it came from. I mean, come on, it's taken until 2013 just to have battles with genuine animations, not sprites, and a continuous overworld map rather than a grid-based one. Hardly revolutionary.

 

[WildShot]

because she still gives me sex and I don't have sons to carry on my name yet

Then just kill her and marry somebody else. Or just systematically subdue and force the horizontal hula on every single woman in Los Angeles. All of them will give you what you want, and a good number of them will give you sons to carry on your name.

This method would enable you to enjoy change instead of facing your wife's imminent and irrepressible mutation into unfamiliarity. It would also land you in prison for a long time, which I like to think of as a very excellent bonus.


EDIT: ...So by my logic, GameFreak should dump Pokémon and replace it with an attempt to spam a bunch of new game series that are set in Los Angeles. They would succeed with a different audience, but old Pokémon fans would find a way to sue them and land them in prison (probably by enlisting the aid of 4chan).

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Does anyone find some merit in the anime, especially the Kanto and Sinnoh episodes. I actual love the Kanto episodes more as a young adult than as an adolescent. Perhaps as a socially isolated autistic woman, I wanted to have friends like Ash, Misty, and Brock.

Again, I like (and still do) watching some select anime episodes more than competitive battling.

 

[lucariomaster2]

I would have to agree; The only episodes of the anime that I truly enjoyed were the Kanto arc (Nostalgia, and actual plot) and the Sinnoh arc (because it's just so bloody hilarious).

And in my eyes, Pokemon hasn't lost its way; I doubt it ever will. Game Freak knows what they're doing.

 

[CJorex]

RBY was from a different era. It's like saying that the special effects in old Star Wars, Doctor Who, etc, aren't on a par with modern Star Wars, Doctor Who, etc. There's far more to a game than technical wizardry, much like any other artform.

Have you even tries looking at the number of glitches that effect gen 1? I seriously doubt any other game has that many.
On another note, I believe the only generation that has truly been lackluster was gen 4. Diamond and Pearl are probably the most boring games in the series. Honestly, we rant about 5th gen stuff like Vanilluxe and Klinklang being crap designs, but then we ignore the fact that gen 4 gave us stuff like Lumineon, Pachirisu and Lopunny, which are both aesthetically and competitively horrible. And then there's the legenaries. While previous gens have produced gems like Ho-oh and the Lati twins, what we got on the boxes of diamond and pearl were a pair of wierd-looking dinosaurs with spikes all over the place. Then you go on to Regigigas and Phione; Fortunttely we got Giratina-O , Heatran and Manaphy to make up for them. And then there's the regular Pokemon. All the emphasis seems to have gone into the new evolutions for old mons. While Togetic, Piloswine, Roselia and Yanma certainly didn't mind theirs, you have to wonder what they were thinking when they designed things like Electivire, Magmortar, Dusknoir and, Porygon-Z, whose sole competitive purpose seem to be allowing their pre-evolutions ton use Eviolite

 

[SpaceNarwhal]

I kinda agree with what's been said many pages ago, the franchise hasn't lost direction, we're just not the target demographic anymore.
I bet if you gave a seven year old a copy of X or Y, they'd still get the same enjoyment that I did when I played Yellow.
I suppose the face that we've grown up has sort of isolated us. Instead of everyone around us playing the games, we end up on our own, or going online to find people who share the interest.
Trading a Pidgey for a Ekans meant a whole lot more when you were trading with an IRL friend than it does with a stranger on the internet.

That being said, perhaps GameFreak or whoever could do more to cater for us older fans.
In XY, I really enjoyed the Looker quests and postgame content, far more than I had in previous generations. It's just a shame that I managed to get through them all in an hour or two, and now I can't replay them without starting over or paying another £40 for the other version of the game.

Personally, I'd like there to be more replayability in the games. If I decided to drop all my lv100s in my PC, and start over with new things, I could still fight all the gyms again, and beat the crap out of challenge all the youngsters and bug catchers again.
Thinking about it, I'm not sure why they haven't ever implemented infinite gym rematches. We can do the elite four over and over to farm money and exp, but why can't we do the same with the gyms?

I really only decided to get into competitive breeding/battling because I'd pretty much 100%ed the game, I've "caught 'em all" and thoroughly beaten all the trainers in Kalos, but still want more.
Without meaning to offend the competitive community, I'd prefer there be more stuff I can do in single player rather than having to socialise with other humans.

I'm not too sure that all those horrific looking pokemon (looking at you Aromatisse) are really such a bad thing, I -will- try to catch each one, no matter how bad it looks or performs, but I'll still end up playing with my old favorites.
I guess it's just up to what you want out of the game, be it the story, collecting, or battling.

I'm currently watching the whole anime from the start, I watched the first season or two as a kid, but was never really "into" watching TV religiously, so didn't really care about missing an episode or four, there was always someone at school who'd fill me on on what happened (or not as the case may be.)
Now (I'm on the second season of Black/White) I just seem to be shouting at my PC about how Ash introduces Pikachu and says where he's from EVERY DAMN TIME (nobody cares Ash, just stop already), and getting annoyed that he never evolves his pokemon until right near the end of a season before leaving them with a professor forever.
Of course, this is against because I'm not the target audience, and I bet a seven year old would enjoy it a lot more than I do.

Like so many others here, I too collected the old trading cards (almost completed the first three sets :D ) but because none of my friends were really into them, the only person I had to play against was my mum, so I never got much of a chance to -play- the game.
I got more into playing YuGiOh and MTG (call me a heretic if you will) since I could actually play those against my friends, but my local gaming shop still holds regular pokemon tournaments, and a lot of people seem really into them, just not me.

In all honesty, the franchise seems to be a fantastic money making machine.
Yeah, the genwunners and die hard fans will still complain about the new games, but I bet they'll all still buy them, name a franchise where that doesn't happen. The kids will still collect the trading cards, and as long as the anime is on TV, people will watch it.

It hasn't lost it's way, we've just grown outgrown it.

 

[Hrothgar]

I really don't believe that XY is particularly impressive from a technical standpoint considering the era it came from. I mean, come on, it's taken until 2013 just to have battles with genuine animations, not sprites, and a continuous overworld map rather than a grid-based one. Hardly revolutionary.

Except when you realize that there are fully animated sprites for like 720 different models. That's impressive to say the least. But what I was trying to say was they are marvels compared to the glitchy pile of glitches that was rby.

 

[noobcubed]

Have you even tried looking at the number of glitches that effect gen 1? I seriously doubt any other game has that many.

Sonic '06. Nuff said.

In addition, I don't really think that glitches can ruin a game unless the game is so glitchy that they occur unintentionally during normal gameplay. For Pokemon RBY, they don't, they only happen when you know how to activate them - in fact several glitches took years to find, because they only happen after a sequence of actions that nobody would ever perform by chance.

Except when you realize that there are fully animated sprites for like 720 different models. That's impressive to say the least. But what I was trying to say was they are marvels compared to the glitchy pile of glitches that was rby.

Fair point about having full animations on so many different models, performing any number of moves each. That would have taken a lot of work.

About how much the games have improved from a technical standpoint, you do realise that this is not special to Pokemon right? There are a ton of glitches in Super Mario Bros related to poor collision detection, most infamously the Minus World, but also Mario's ability to walk through walls and kill enemies from underneath. Super Mario Galaxy is, technically, far better. But while Super Mario Bros was unquestionably the best game of its time, resurrecting the video game industry single-handedly, Super Mario Galaxy has a lot of competition to be considered the best game of the seventh console generation. It is simply unfair to compare the technical aspects of games over ten years apart - you can only judge their technical aspects in relation to other games of similar vintage.

 

[Lord Ghetsis]

I feel like OP lost his way.
These games were intended for a younger audience.

 

[ANinyMouse]

Have you even tries looking at the number of glitches that effect gen 1? I seriously doubt any other game has that many.
On another note, I believe the only generation that has truly been lackluster was gen 4. Diamond and Pearl are probably the most boring games in the series. Honestly, we rant about 5th gen stuff like Vanilluxe and Klinklang being crap designs, but then we ignore the fact that gen 4 gave us stuff like Lumineon, Pachirisu and Lopunny, which are both aesthetically and competitively horrible. And then there's the legenaries. While previous gens have produced gems like Ho-oh and the Lati twins, what we got on the boxes of diamond and pearl were a pair of wierd-looking dinosaurs with spikes all over the place. Then you go on to Regigigas and Phione; Fortunttely we got Giratina-O , Heatran and Manaphy to make up for them. And then there's the regular Pokemon. All the emphasis seems to have gone into the new evolutions for old mons. While Togetic, Piloswine, Roselia and Yanma certainly didn't mind theirs, you have to wonder what they were thinking when they designed things like Electivire, Magmortar, Dusknoir and, Porygon-Z, whose sole competitive purpose seem to be allowing their pre-evolutions ton use Eviolite

>Terrible designs
>Lopunny

Seriously? I mean really? Wow, okay.

>Gen 4 evolutions of old worthless Pokemon
>Because of a Gen 5 item.

Yeah ok

 

[Mr. Munchlax]

Designs were never better. Because of a basic principle of psychology, we tend to blot out the bad parts of our past and keep the good things. In reality, Grimer (a literal pile of goop) is a worse design than Lopunny. One is a pile of toxic waste with eyes, while the other is a bunny colorfully re-imagined into a human-like, lithe warrior form.
There were all ways terrible side games, just look past these attempts at a quick buck, because they are guaranteed parts of any large franchise.
As far as anime, look me dead in the face and tell me that saying shocking Onix's horn makes it weak to Electric moves, while shocking its body won't, is a better lie than the trash on the "anime" today. (For those who don't recall, that was in Ash's battle against Blaine.)
The TCG is still going strong and largely the same, it was just a fad.
Pokemon hasn't changed. Keep the spirit alive.

 

[Codraroll]

^Actually, the Onix battle was won by activating the Gym's sprinkler system, and a wet Onix apparently conducts electricity. It was a (Blaine's?) Rhydon that started the "Aim for the horn!" meme.

 

[Mr. Munchlax]

wet Onix apparently conducts electricity. (Blaine's?) Rhydon that started the "Aim for the horn!" meme.

Looks like I messed up the facts. Now my post is more like the anime from across all the years.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Perhaps something could be done with the linearity of the gameplay (having "defeat eight gyms in any order you desire" as a main stoyline, and have all the rest be included as a ton of sidequests, for instance), or changing the story so it isn't always the same (professor sends you out on quest, defeat eight gyms, beat evil team),

This.

Gamefreak needs to pull a move like Nintendo did with the new Zelda game. Open it up to be a "small sandbox" where you're allowed to choose which way you go in the game, like those choose your own adventure books. It would be fairly simple to just have the game adjust gym leaders difficulty by the order defeated. This is part of what made the post-game of gen 2 really fun for me. You basically could collect the badges in any order except for Blue, but the short length was disappointing.

They also should move away from the hand holding of previous games. They started moving in that direction in XY, with the vastly shorter opening sequence. But they still stop you at almost every turn for 5 minutes of text. The biggest thing pokemon has going for it is the level of immersion from such a simple concept, and gamefreak has kind of dulled that by holding your hand through the entire adventure.

 

[Stale FIsh]

Pokemon just hit a "fad" status when it came out. People dug it because it was the cool thing to do and those of us that really did enjoy it stuck around because we got a big kick out of it. The card game was huge when it first came out and you couldn't even find any packs in the stores. It was big but when something is around for so long it starts to lose its bang. Best thing they did was make the games more competitive and that gives gamers the longevity they're seeking with their games.