Serious when is violence acceptable?

[Myzozoa]

my question, or the question you keep telling me I'm asking? Idon't like going in too many different directions in one post, but I don't think violence is ever justified. That's just me, though.

really you don't support violence under any circumstances, huh?

lol, i cant even.

I guess the people who resist violence through violence rather than just rolling over and dying are doing it wrong then in your view?

What about fighting against Germany in WW2, that wasn't justified to you?

I guess in your view we shouldn't arrest any white-wing terrorists in case they get hurt resisting arrest through violence .

Or wait no, I have it now, you're the type who is always protesting the carceral state right? Out there in the rough streets taking down the prison industrial complex. through non-violence of course.

 

[Myzozoa]

I don't think the president should be making jokes about telling people to kill his opponents, I don't think the president should be making jokes at all actually given his track record with them. but thats not what hes doing. Killing and punching somebody is definitely different. However he's clearly joking.

The people in this thread want to see trump as a hitler x2 because it makes them feel justified. the right wing nutjobs don't want that and they're in it for their own shit because they clearly have a warped mind. a psychopath will still be a nutjob regardless if somebody makes a comment to them jokingly or not.

rounding up illegal immigrants who are literally breaking the law is significantly different from taking an innocent ethnic group and literally mass killing them.

seriously, do you think that trump is just like hitler? genuine question because I think thats preposterous but I think you might actually believe it? do you think that trump is legitimately going to end up committing genocide or something smaller because honestly I don't see any indication of it anywhere but the delusional left wing. most democrats don't actually think trump is hitler and can hold an honest conversation about it

im also ethnically jewish and almost offended by the comparison


dunno what this shit means so i guess we dont have an issue with it

also heres a pm u sent me two years ago lol

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you seem to have the false assertion that people are significantly more extreme then they are

yeah separating children from their families and losing track of them, while simultaneously killing the process for asylum-seekers ('illegal immigrants') largely seeking safety from the death squads of right-wing regimes and gangs exported from the U.S, that we (white americans) prop up to keep food prices low, isn't outrageous at all. i guess you're right, since Trump isn't literally Adolf Hitler, and since some people compare him to Hitler, we should just ignore what goes on under his administration, especially if it helps any of us pay our bills and as long as we can go to bed at night with our privilege to keep us warm.

 

[earl]

I don't think the president should be making jokes about telling people to kill his opponents, I don't think the president should be making jokes at all actually given his track record with them. but thats not what hes doing. Killing and punching somebody is definitely different. However he's clearly joking.

"Clearly Joking" is just a way to remove any responsibility he has in inciting violence. Even if it is a joke that doesn't mean it can be easily interpreted as not being one and acted upon.

As a person with that much sway over his supporters, and with a known subset of extremists, you really just shouldn't be saying stuff like that as a rule of thumb. Intent ultimately doesn't matter when he actually does have partial responsibility in inciting something such as a serial bombing

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

"Clearly Joking" is just a way to remove any responsibility he has in inciting violence. Even if it is a joke that doesn't mean it can be easily interpreted as not being one and acted upon.

As a person with that much sway over his supporters, and with a known subset of extremists, you really just shouldn't be saying stuff like that as a rule of thumb. Intent ultimately doesn't matter when he actually does have partial responsibility in inciting something such as a serial bombing

i definitely agree, but intent does matter when people are comparing him to hitler and saying he is purposely inciting violence

yeah separating children from their families and losing track of them, while simultaneously killing the process for asylum-seekers ('illegal immigrants') largely seeking safety from the death squads of right-wing regimes and gangs exported from the U.S, that we (white americans) prop up to keep food prices low, isn't outrageous at all. i guess you're right, since Trump isn't literally Adolf Hitler, and since some people compare him to Hitler, we should just ignore what goes on under his administration, especially if it helps any of us pay our bills and as long as we can go to bed at night with our privilege to keep us warm.

lol your "asylum-seekers" are ILLEGALLY IMMIGRATING to the united states and the flawed process definitely needs to be improved but thats not what I'm arguing here. im not exactly how sending out people who didn't go through the ACTUAL process to come to the greatest country on earth legally makes him hitler regardless of what these people are fleeing from, but you're more than welcome to tell me. we live in a nation of laws and that is what allowed our country to become how it is today. letting people break those laws and come in however they want isn't a good thing, especially when there are people who wait forever to get in the legal way.

 

[vonFiedler]

lol your "asylum-seekers" are ILLEGALLY IMMIGRATING

So you're arguing that anything that's going to come is okay because these are the bad minorities doing bad things to us. Where have I heard that before?

I was a conservative before this insanity took root and we had a president "joking" about murder and "joking" about all the problems minorites cause us. I don't know if I can be one after this is all over, but it's not a case of "dems think this because republican", I don't remember the same comparisons as en-masse with Bush or any other prospective presidential candidate (although conservatives will jump at the chance to call anyone a communist). I can't be a conservative when so many others are too cowardly to stand up to this crap. If you can rewrite reality to not see Trump's comments as a call to arms that has exactly coincided with mass shootings moving away from acts of islamic terrorism and towards acts of the alt-right, if you can't even eat that little crow but keep trumpeting the party line, then how could you see the larger historical parallels? Too bad we didn't have this history shoved down our throat for the last 60 years explicitly so we wouldn't repeat it. That would have been a grand idea.

 

[atomicllamas]

i definitely agree, but intent does matter when people are comparing him to hitler and saying he is purposely inciting violence

lol your "asylum-seekers" are ILLEGALLY IMMIGRATING to the united states and the flawed process definitely needs to be improved but thats not what I'm arguing here. im not exactly how sending out people who didn't go through the ACTUAL process to come to the greatest country on earth legally makes him hitler regardless of what these people are fleeing from, but you're more than welcome to tell me. we live in a nation of laws and that is what allowed our country to become how it is today. letting people break those laws and come in however they want isn't a good thing, especially when there are people who wait forever to get in the legal way.

“Illegally immigrating” is often necessary to seek asylum to the US, because for affirmative asylum you need to physically be in the US and for defensive asylum you need to be in the process of being deported. https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

Basically “illegal immigration” is a legal aspect of seeking asylum because asylum seekers are allowed to be illegal immigrants. (Which makes sense considering for a lot of cases you would be seeking asylum because you you are escaping an emergency situation and can’t afford to wait for a US court case to play out in your situation).

 

[vonFiedler]

Also re: "you think there are so many extremists"

No, I'm scared that there are so many more people who won't do anything about extremists. I'm sure most conservative politicians are too afraid of Trump and losing their money and position if they stood up to him, because he does bully those who don't fall in line and it is effective. I'm scared that in 20 years so many will say with a straight face that nobody saw this coming, while in the meantime there are a myriad of reasons they just ignore it. I'm scared that a guy like you is only crossing his fingers hoping things don't get out of hand, but gambling that anyway just for every year of Rep control they can get (and that's entirely theoretical, not to mention generous). I keep hearing conservatives say they don't like Trump, that he's not their man. If being honest, then do something about it. Because Trump is defining your party right now, and it's not a good look. You can't claim to be of the party of morality and truth when your party has lost those things. Help me fix it. Down with Trump.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

quite a speech but trump is doing a lot of good for the country and i think that is more important then all the dumb things he keeps spewing out of his mouth and his twitter feed. i don't think trump is evil like you do and hey, in 20 years if you're right I'll look like a complete fucking fool, but thats something I don't think will happen.
i definitely agree about the republican politician thing however from the perspective of everybody that voted for trump thats not that bad of a situation (the alternative being that the conservatives in congress are openly against trump and nothing gets done)

anyway this has derailed from the thread topic and i dislike discussing politics on pokemon forums but good talks

 

[Lou]

Answering the title's question: Never.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

really you don't support violence under any circumstances, huh?

lol, i cant even.

I guess the people who resist violence through violence rather than just rolling over and dying are doing it wrong then in your view?

What about fighting against Germany in WW2, that wasn't justified to you?

I guess in your view we shouldn't arrest any white-wing terrorists in case they get hurt resisting arrest through violence .

Or wait no, I have it now, you're the type who is always protesting the carceral state right? Out there in the rough streets taking down the prison industrial complex. through non-violence of course.

God damn, no. I don't think violence to further a political goal is ever justified. This is a thread about political violence, isn't it???

 

[Ace Emerald]

I've been trying to think of what to post here as I process the events from this last weekend. I think I'll stick with this: violence against Nazis is justifiable self defense. These people would kill me if they could. An important part of their ideology is scapegoating me for the world's problems. Its me or them, and I didn't start this. That's all I've got in me to write at the moment.

 

[Myzozoa]

God damn, no. I don't think violence to further a political goal is ever justified. This is a thread about political violence, isn't it???

what form of violence isn't political in your view? it seems that based on your responses that you do accept that some violence is justified (the example we have discussed is WW2) if that violence is intended as a means to prevent or counter some greater violence, but then you go on to contradict yourself when you assert violence should never be used to further a 'political' goal. Violence is necessarily 'political' to the victims that are harmed and the perpetrators who perceive some benefit, and more importantly, stopping violence is a 'political' goal because the violence intended to be stopped emerged as a political goal or as a means to a political end. If I said 'self defense' is justified to prevent violence no one would say thats controversial, but self defense can be political or politicized, counter-violence has a political goal: preventing violence is a political goal. The way you talk in your last reply implies counter violence/ self defense fails justification.

 

[Steel With It]

"These people, like the Antifa, they better hope that the opposition to Antifa decides not to mobilise. Because if they do, they’re much tougher, much stronger, potentially much more violent. And Antifa’s going to be in big trouble." - Donald Trump today.

*waits for denouncements that aren't "FALSE FLAG," "SATIRE" or "NO U"*

*dies of old age*

 

[termi]

Political violence to me is justified under some conditions, the most important conditions being that it needs to clearly be in service of preventing greater acts of violence, fatalities (and major physical harm in general) should be minimized, and if fatalities do occur the people in question are actually culpable for whatever it is the violent action is perpetrated against and/or it's in direct self-defense. I do not endorse lethal terrorist attacks because killing innocents to further a political cause remains despicable. Also, anyone who goes "I oppose all violence" is a coward, of course most people do not actually think violence is good, but in a world rife with violence there are things that cannot be sufficiently opposed using strictly non-violent means.

I just wanted to say that so this post isn't just me responding to Smogon's Finest Reactionary Ideologue. Here comes the part where I respond to Smogon's Finest Reactionary Ideologue:

The issue is the left tries to intellectualize Antifa. They're just punching the people who deserve to be punched. They're just silencing the people who deserve to be silenced. "No Organization is perfect."

Here's the reality on left wing vs right wing violence in the last two years:
At Trump's inauguration Antifa is smashing in windows and causing mayhem.
Multiple mobs of Antifa and other Democrat activists were tearing down public property consisting of statues of historical figures they don't like.
In Charlottesville Antifa shows up with clubs to intimidate and threaten the remaining 1000 white supremacists in America that had all gathered with their tiki torches. One of the white supremacists panicked in the battle, got into a car and ran someone over. If Antifa hadn't showed up hiding behind their masks, weapons in hand Heather Heyer would probably be alive today.
Rand Paul's ribs were broken by a disgruntled neighbor because of his political differences.
A Bernie Bro shot up a congressional baseball game and nearly killed Republican House Majority Whip Steve Scalise.
Countless incidents of Antifa violence occur on a regular basis. Every time they show up they pick a fight with the city police department because they are on the "cops are pigs" and "law enforcement is racist front to back (A gem from my Senator, Elizabeth Warren)" trains.
At least 4 Republican officials are harassed in restaurants with the tacit endorsement of this tactic from Maxine Waters.

I count: one failed attempt at killing, a few instances of harassment (of politicians who have blood on their hands, that is), property damage (one big boohoo for Starbucks and General Lee's statues, so sad!), some mean words about cops, and one actual killing perpetrated by a nazi which you mysteriously blame on antifa??

Meanwhile, this year alone already counts 4 lethal right wing terrorist attacks in the US, one of which being the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting of a few weeks ago in which 11 people died. When's the last time left wing extremists got remotely this dangerous in the USA? If you're going to address "left wing violence vs right wing violence", maybe don't omit the vast majority of right wing violence from your post. The only right wing violence you explicitly mention is the MAGAbomber, probably the easiest one to dismiss because he fucked up and didn't actually get to murder anyone, unlike the dozens (yes, dozens) of American right wingers who committed acts of terrorism in the last couple of decades alone.

During and after all of this, Hillary Clinton and Eric Holder call for"not when they go low, we go high. When they go low we kick them." and "you can't be civil with people who oppose what you stand for politically."

Hillary Clinton may be a demon in the flesh but I'm pretty sure she never coined that phrase, more importantly though, neither of these people have anything to do with antifa or the Berniebro shooter to our best knowledge, so I don't know why you're bringing this up.

At no point in any of these incidents does the press say that Democrats really ought to tone down the "get in their face" and "don't let them eat in peace" style rhetoric.

The right does have it's own problem in this:

They truck way too easily in conspiracy theories because our media shows every single indicator that it has an explicit political bias willing to suppress anything that counters the preferred Democrat narrative. That's why Donald Trump's "The Fake News media are the enemy of the American people" resonates so much. The media have been manifestly awful and one-sided since Bill Clinton was President and his routine roughing up of women and other abuses of status / privilege needed cover.

I like how it looks like you'll actually criticize the right for once but then immediately backpedal by going "well honestly people who believe the earth is flat and jews are the puppetmasters of the world are only like that because leftists control the media"

Even I was willing to jump of the false flag train if this guy - who was so obviously incompetent and whose targets explicitly included nearly all the Democrats most vocally supporting violence over the last 4 weeks - wasn't caught in a short period of time. Fortunately he was. We found out he was a nutjob whose record of threats, intimidation, and violence long predate Barack Obama's election.

The bolded part is really funny because it almost seems like you're trying to justify why he did what he did, even after calling him a wackjob. You have a lot more patience and understanding for this guy than for some antifa dude who smashed a window, it appears.