Which games had good level curves?

[Just A Seaking]

In a way Johto's level curve says something deep about life which may hit too close to home to be appreciated.

I don't necessarily agree that this is a good thing, but I do agree that Johto's level curve is at least somewhat intentional in its design. When factoring in the clock and the day/night system, the way I see Johto is that it's encouraging to play the game slowly, taking it one day at a time. In a sense, it's kinda similar to how modern mobile games handle daily events - play a little bit each day, check for any new events like trainer rematches or swarms, and either progress more through the game or set it down for the next day. You're not meant to play it in large sittings, but take it one step at a time, training and catching over a long stretch of time.

I don't think it works well in practice, granted - I think it's too slow and your options too limited - but I think any discussion of Johto's level curve needs to take the ethos of it into account. I'm not saying you should check all your opinions at the door, just that it's not meant to be played in the same way as the games that came after it. HGSS preserved these elements, and arguably enhanced them by virtue of the Pokewalker, which gave you another means of connecting with the game on a daily basis and weaving it into your daily life. There's also a few more mechanics like the Safari Zone, but the Pokewalker mostly stands out to me in this way. It's a bit tangential to the level curve itself, of course, but I think the same broad idea applies - you're not meant to go through the game with a rigid team of 6, marching towards your goal of beating the Champion, but slowly building up strength one day at a time. There's merit to that, even if I find the execution shaky.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I would say that's also a realistic part of life, it's not like you can become a master of anything just by competing with random people you meet on the street, and the practice isn't always going to be exciting or rewarding. A lot of trainers are ordinary people just living their own life like the pokefans or the fishers, and sometimes they call you about it. If they were all super competent I think it would defeat the point the story is making up to that point.

The idea that Johto trainers are fodder reminds me of when Silver says that he hates battling weak trainers, and his viewpoint is supposed to be proven wrong by the narrative. The Dragon's Den quiz also points out that you have to be willing to fight anyone, not just the strong. I think the other games have just forgone the nuance of gameplay story integration in favour of a more approachable power fantasy where you and everyone else just linearly get stronger as you reach each new location. I don't think it was the wrong decision in terms of making the games more approachable, but I think the question of what it really means to live as a trainer and become champion is lost when there's no pushback to pursuing such a prestigious goal.

Even at the start of the game, you can choose to leave money to your mother or leave home without talking to her, a choice that wouldn't be given to you again in future games. It's a powerful piece of emergent gameplay that really gives meaning to leaving home, another very realistic life event.

EDIT: Also regarding wild levels, this is something I feel like Unova does terribly in terms of worldbuilding by just adding postgame parts of the region that are higher level than everything else for no particular reason other than being postgame. I think the Pokemon world would realistically look more like the Johto games in terms of wild level distribution not suddenly being higher in a new place just because it's after other places.

Kanto Route 1 across Kanto to Johto has the same level 2 Pidgey and Rattata. This makes sense.
Unova Route 1 goes from having level 2 Unova native mons to invasive Level 50 Jigglypuffs in B2W2. I think this is a travesty and is never explained.

I understand what you mean, but first and foremost, this is a game.

Games are supposed to be fun. Johto's wack level curve issues directly impact that aspect, so, to me, they're problematic.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Imo Platinum and BW2 are the most fair games. XY is actually really fun and interesting with Exp share turned off until the E4 where you need to grind extensively if you've been playing with Off. SV is pretty well done too but a little easy to accidentally overlevel and the game is so dull if you do. Sword Shield this is even easier if you grab the Exp charm

 

[Axiemeister]

I understand what you mean, but first and foremost, this is a game.

Games are supposed to be fun. Johto's wack level curve issues directly impact that aspect, so, to me, they're problematic.

corollary to this: gen2/4 kanto having wild mons with their same old (now terrible) levels is just not the best game design, as much sense as it makes

 

[doipy hooves]

I disagree completely. In fact, my opinion is pretty much the polar opposite of yours.

It seems we have different perspectives on this subject. For me, levels are purely a gameplay element, they do not add to worldbuilding or realism in any way whatsoever. In addition, realism is one of the last things I look for when I play Pokémon, I find the Pokémon games to be very unrealistic (and I consider that to be a very good thing). I think B2/W2 Unova does the levels of the post-game areas much better since they are altered to fit the player's progress in the new way you explore the region, they were not kept from how they were in B/W just to make it “realistic”.

Kanto Route 1 in the Johto games having level 2 Pidgey and Rattata just like in the Kanto games makes no sense whatsoever. Why should you be fighting wild Pokémon at level 2 when you have already beaten the Champion with a level 50 Dragonite, and when you are right next to the city where the Gym Leader has a level 60 Pidgeot? To me, that’s nothing but a prime example of bad game design. I assume it was that way in G/S/C to match how it was in R/B/Y, but that's not a good reason since it makes the games worse. The fact that it wasn't fixed in HG/SS is a complete and utter travesty.

Meanwhile, Unova Route 1 having high-leveled Pokémon in B2/W2 makes sense because at that point, the player has already beaten the Champion with high-leveled Pokémon, so the levels were increased from how they were in B/W to match the player’s progress. To me, this does not need an explanation, it is simply that way because the levels increase as the game progresses. In contrast to the Johto games, I think this is an example of good game design.

All in all, I think this is just one of the many instances where B2/W2 succeeded at being sequels, while the Johto games failed.

Regarding your other opinion about Johto having the “most realistic portrayal of gaining experience in real life”, I disagree about that as well (or at least I don’t see it as something good), but I’m having a hard time formulating a counterargument towards it without getting too personal or subjective, so I’ll pass for now. Maybe another time.

I also agree with Volt about the low levels in the Johto games making grinding a chore. In fact, my biggest issue with the Johto games isn’t the level curve, but the lack of good training spots (which is partly caused by the bad level curve). When I played Crystal earlier this year, I just gave up trying to grind in the post-game since there are no good training spots anywhere. This wasn’t that much of an issue when I played G/S/C as a kid, but nowadays, I can't do it. I think I have been heavily spoiled by the great training spots in the generations after Gen 2, especially Gen 5 and 6, but also 3-4 and 7-9 to some extents.

I think we do just have to agree to disagree here but I will expand on a few points.

I don't think that either Route 1 is particularly relevant to have high or low level encounters on because ultimately they're just callbacks that you're probably Repelling through and not actual challenges. But as sequels to a previous game, I think it undermines the narrative to treat Route 1 as this endgame level threat when you have a whole Memory Link event of talking to Bianca on Route 1 about the memories of taking their first steps together at the very start of the duology. If Blue had an event where he talked about training on Route 1 as a kid to start his journey and it was full of Level 50 Raticates, it would be hard to relate if you had never played a Kanto game before.

While looking back, I was reminded of N's Pokemon and how a bunch of them are locked behind postgame. On Route 2 you find his Level 7 Purrloin which is exactly how it was from BW1, but in Wellspring Cave his Woobat (from the intro cutscene) is inexplicably Level 55 to match the other wild Woobat. I like the former reference and it would have lost its meaning if it was a level 55 Purrloin or even Liepard, but I think the latter is a glaring hole where they didn't have a trainer battle to pull from so they just didn't really think about what would make sense in context with the rest of N's Pokemon they added.

I also think having more time and patience as a kid is also a part of Johto's gameplay story integration based on childhood experiences that I like, but that's more part of my earlier point about the narrative. Adding onto Just A Seaking's good point about the Pokewalker, I would even argue that the intended endgame training spot is supposed to be the Trainer House to represent training with the highest level with other players, and that a lot of player interaction was probably intended in the context of GS's release.

I understand what you mean, but first and foremost, this is a game.

Games are supposed to be fun. Johto's wack level curve issues directly impact that aspect, so, to me, they're problematic.

corollary to this: gen2/4 kanto having wild mons with their same old (now terrible) levels is just not the best game design, as much sense as it makes

To expand on Just a Seaking's post, I think discussing the idea of what makes a game fun or well designed is dependent on a lot of cultural context, and if GSC was released today with no story or relation to Pokemon at all then I would probably agree, but personally I value that combination of mechanical and narrative integration highly when considering what makes a game stand out from just purely reading a story or only playing for the gameplay. A take on Johto that's purely about the boss combat would be Stadium 2's campaign where everyone is level 50 and the level curve is completely flat, or if you just cheat in rare candies to skip the grind. But I think making either of these the official approach to play GSC would feel wrong and I can't imagine a hero's journey playing out like that. Even most of the GSC manga isn't even about the gym challenge and is mostly just people losing one on one and learning something from it, having to work together to face a greater threat.

I also think of postgame Kanto as an overall bonus like when Mario references 1-1 or Kirby brings back Green Greens, it may not be part of a greater difficulty curve but it's a fun reference.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I also think of postgame Kanto as an overall bonus like when Mario references 1-1 or Kirby brings back Green Greens, it may not be part of a greater difficulty curve but it's a fun reference.

Yeah, tbh, postgame Kanto is whatever. Mt. Silver needed higher-level wilds to prep for Red, but that's another thing entirely.

My gripe is with the main game and the blatant gameplay issues the level curve causes.

I think we do just have to agree to disagree here but I will expand on a few points.

It's alright, it's always fun to be able to hear about different perspectives, even if we disagree.

 

[Hugin]

XY is actually really fun and interesting with Exp share turned off until the E4 where you need to grind extensively if you've been playing with Off.

I'd forgotten that aspect of XY that made it work well. Go through the game with the Exp Share off, and then when you do need to grind you can turn it on and speed through that part. It's not a perfect solution, obviously, but it makes it far easier to get past level hurdles than in games that are technically smoother.

 

[FloopThePig]

I'm surprised to see BW with so many votes despite its awful postgame leveling, as mentioned by some people in this thread. While I did enjoy the difficulty, I don't think the average player would have fun healing after every NPC battle against level 60+ teams. It felt like the developers got lazy to calculate an appropriate level curve for both Unova games so they just copypasted the B2W2 levels onto the BW games. For reference, Iris's Haxorus is at level 59 while Ghetsis was at 54. The transition to the B2W2 postgame was very smooth.

I would also say that the Pokémon League to Ghetsis level (or rather difficulty) curve is pretty bad because you go from a level 46/48 Elite Four with only four Pokémon to a level 50 Zekrom/Reshiram catch into two very difficult and well-balanced 6v6 battles. There is a six level jump just from the Elite Four to Ghetsis. Meanwhile after battling Iris/Drayden (level 43), you battle Cheren (level 45) and a bunch of trainers before facing the Elite Four.

And funnily enough, DP's levels for the Gyms were perfect for me until I got to the Pokémon League where it became very grindy. But for BDSP, I got overlevelled just by playing the story until I got to the Elite Four where I was even with them.

As for the discussion on difficulty vs levels, I think it should be noted that there are two common ways boss battles are designed. One is a "David and Goliath" type where the protagonist is supposed to be seen as the weaker character overcoming a greater opponent. Bosses having massive level spikes (Red, Ghetsis, the progressing E4 levels in the first 4 gens, Cynthia in gen 5) is normal, so I wouldn't fault some of them for having "bad" level curves as I think it is part of the difficulty (tho DP Pokémon League level curve still sucks). The other is a battle of rivals/equals where it comes down to one climactic fight determining who among the two is the strongest. I think that the BDSP Pokémon League actually handled this type of boss battles best (at least for the first match; I can't remember how difficult the rematches were). In a battle of "equals", there should be some way for the game to make up for its difficulty since the AI cannot match a person's thinking. Giving optimized sets is a smart way of increasing difficulty while still maintaing an atmosphere of "fairness" in level curve. It also teaches new players that levels aren't everything.

 

[Kurona]

I'm surprised to see BW with so many votes despite its awful postgame leveling, as mentioned by some people in this thread. While I did enjoy the difficulty, I don't think the average player would have fun healing after every NPC battle against level 60+ teams. It felt like the developers got lazy to calculate an appropriate level curve for both Unova games so they just copypasted the B2W2 levels onto the BW games. For reference, Iris's Haxorus is at level 59 while Ghetsis was at 54. The transition to the B2W2 postgame was very smooth.

In fairness, I think most are just looking at the main game aside from GSC/HGSS

 

[Basedwell]

I don’t think that level curves should be directly based on avg trainer levels or wild pokemon levels. The games clearly have a lot of content and attention to detail in them, you’re meant to take your time and explore. There isn’t infinite content to explore, and you need to determine if engaging with some sort of average amount produces the proper levels for boss fights. In some games this will lead to extremes.

Aside from a slow start, I kept going in Crystal at a good pace. I may have went overboard training my Scyther because I used it to explore the island where Lugia was, but aside from Wobbuffet my team was well leveled for the league. I forget, but I may have had access to a Lucky Egg which helped with grinding.

The only time I struggled was with Ruby, specifically at the end. I maintained the same team throughout the game, and had a lot of trouble with catching Groudon, and with the Elite 4. I fought almost every trainer and used a team of 6, where I only used and gave up on Shedinja, who tbf was an xp sink. I hadn’t picked the best mons but I legit ground for hours beating the first few E4 fights and massacring the Victory Road pokemon. I think they fixed this in Emerald, but it gave me a negative view of R/S/E lol

 

[Basedwell]

To add onto this, for Johto, in G/S/C it’s not as bad as it seems, because you get two badge boosts, and the EV system allows for a lot of extra stats compared to in-game trainers. And let’s be real, the AI back then wasn’t the best, and nor was the movesets for enemy pokemon.

In HGSS, the power level has increased, enemy pokemon now have better movesets, abilities, and are slightly better controlled, and you don’t have any of those stat advantages that helped in G/S/C. Aside from EVs ofc. That makes the Elite 4 harder.

If you do a focused play through with exactly 5ish members throughout and explore plenty of areas, taking your time as you do so, HGSS isn’t that bad. But they did need to improve the situation or give you a lucky egg after Morty lol. Or more realistically add more areas to explore.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Looking at the way Hoenn's level curve was handled just makes me more annoyed Johto's level curve wasn't fixed at all in HGSS.

In RSE, Brawly and Winona can be skipped, but because Wattson and Tate&Liza respectively are way, way ahead of their predecessors (story-wise and geographically) they're fittingly ahead in levels and you still have to progress to fight them.

Meanwhile in Johto you have beat Jasmine, who caps out at level 37, to access the Radio Tower... which is full of opponents using Pokemon as low as level 17. Make it make sense.

They needed to gate Pryce behind Jasmine somehow (at the very least by keeping the NPC who blocks his gym in place until she's defeated) and then boost his team up to the late 30s to fit. The opponents in the Radio Tower should then have all correspondingly been beefed up to the mid-30s, with the Executives capping out in the early 40s; this would justify Clair's gym getting a boost too. The surrounding routes also needed an upgrade; Route 45 should not be full of Pokemon around level 23 when I'm about to face a level 40 gym leader.

The knock-on effect of this doesn't cause the rest of the game to be wildly out of reach; even a boost of 5 or 6 levels apiece would have sufficed. And the silver lining of that would be that everyone stops bitching about Lance's level 50 Dragonite! See? Everyone's a winner.

 

[Bakugames]

dppts level curve is mid, gets really bad with the elite four and cynthia. I agree with people who say cynthia is a mid as fuck champion, she's got the same problems as red but on a lower scale: higher levels with a pretty mid regional dex meaning your available pokemon is pretty ass.

honestly, the fact that most of the "good bosses" in pokemon games are like that just makes me think gamefreak doesnt know how to make good bosses lmfao

 

[Basedwell]

dppts level curve is mid, gets really bad with the elite four and cynthia. I agree with people who say cynthia is a mid as fuck champion, she's got the same problems as red but on a lower scale: higher levels with a pretty mid regional dex meaning your available pokemon is pretty ass.

The difference is with Red, it’s not meant to be completed in a natural order in the same way the Elite 4 is. It’s meant to be some end of game, I’ve logged hour after hour into it, one of the last things I do in the game, type fights. You aren’t supposed to beat Red after running through Kanto once, but after 100 percent-ing the game, or close to it. If you could train for the fight in an afternoon, it defeats the purpose.

honestly, the fact that most of the "good bosses" in pokemon games are like that just makes me think gamefreak doesnt know how to make good bosses lmfao

They clearly do because the battle facilities has tougher fights with tougher opponents. If the game starts getting too easy for you, that’s because it’s meant to be beaten by children without them having to think too hard or get challenged too much.

Levels are the easiest way to establish minor difficulty: with good strategy you can overcome the gap, if not, get to the same level and you will win.

 

[Bakugames]

They clearly do because the battle facilities has tougher fights with tougher opponents. If the game starts getting too easy for you, that’s because it’s meant to be beaten by children without them having to think too hard or get challenged too much.

the battle facilities are even worse, the team composition on them is god awful and most are based on extreme rng cheese, such as double team spam or dungeon modes that rely on rng to get by. Ive done pretty much all of them and very few are well designed imo

 

[Basedwell]

the battle facilities are even worse, the team composition on them is god awful and most are based on extreme rng cheese, such as double team spam or dungeon modes that rely on rng to get by. Ive done pretty much all of them and very few are well designed imo

I play Gen 5 PWT and Subway, and for the most part it’s fair. Sometimes there’s a snow team which tries to get freezes, and one time I ran into this weird paralyze/attract/double team bliss that I almost struggled to death against, but most teams use the in-game mechanics or better movesets. Not as tough as real humans, but honestly felt less contingent on rng than Showdown feels sometimes.

 

[Altissimo]

the battle facilities are even worse, the team composition on them is god awful and most are based on extreme rng cheese, such as double team spam or dungeon modes that rely on rng to get by. Ive done pretty much all of them and very few are well designed imo

What's your highest streak?

 

[Bakugames]

What's your highest streak?

For which one? I mostly played gen 3 and gen 4, never had a big interest in gen 5s. Gen 3 ive had varying streaks of 40s, 50s, highest one was somewhere around 63, though i found myself too frustrated to hit 100 as i originally planned. Gen 4s was a lot lower, i think my highest was around early 40s before i decided i didnt have much fun either.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

dppts level curve is mid, gets really bad with the elite four and cynthia. I agree with people who say cynthia is a mid as fuck champion, she's got the same problems as red but on a lower scale: higher levels with a pretty mid regional dex meaning your available pokemon is pretty ass.

honestly, the fact that most of the "good bosses" in pokemon games are like that just makes me think gamefreak doesnt know how to make good bosses lmfao

"DPPT" as an umbrella is a fallacy here bc the situation was improved so much in platinum in both regards. Adding everything that got a new evolution in gen 4 to the Sinnoh dex makes the sinnoh dex much stronger so you can make better teams, enemy trainers more often have evolved pokemon so higher exp yield, and the e4 in platinum don't have nearly as extreme a level jump as they do in DP - 48-62 across all trainers in platinum, 53-68 in DP.

 

[Bakugames]

"DPPT" as an umbrella is a fallacy here bc the situation was improved so much in platinum in both regards. Adding everything that got a new evolution in gen 4 to the Sinnoh dex makes the sinnoh dex much stronger so you can make better teams, enemy trainers more often have evolved pokemon so higher exp yield, and the e4 in platinum don't have nearly as extreme a level jump as they do in DP - 48-62 across all trainers in platinum, 53-68 in DP.

I don't think it mitigates the problem that well. The added pokemon are pretty mixed in quality, ignoring that many would need to be traded which, if playing the game as intended and not on an emulator where i cheat all traded pokemon in, makes the new dex even weaker. I've played with some of the new guys and some are fine, but others don't really pull through that much. I think scizor was the biggest improvement overall, magmortar is a fine replacement if you're not running infernape, the rest i feel dont pull their weight as much which is genuinely sad, i really like some of their designs (I still drag yanmega in all my teams though just because i love that thang)

The levels improve more than dp though, but i still think it comes out as a pretty mid experience curve with a less bad e4 and cynthia

 

[Basedwell]

"DPPT" as an umbrella is a fallacy here bc the situation was improved so much in platinum in both regards. Adding everything that got a new evolution in gen 4 to the Sinnoh dex makes the sinnoh dex much stronger so you can make better teams, enemy trainers more often have evolved pokemon so higher exp yield, and the e4 in platinum don't have nearly as extreme a level jump as they do in DP - 48-62 across all trainers in platinum, 53-68 in DP.

Those Gen 3-4 E4 level curves are odd. Now that I think about it lol. It’s like, most of the time I’m slightly under the first/second member, and during the last member, the experience differential starts catching up to me.

If I have a bad matchup with the champion, things can get challenging. Because ofc even best case scenario I’m only gaining a few levels between the first fight and the last. And it’s weird. Like the level that makes the first Elite 4 member challenging is going to make someone 12 levels higher extremely hard. Like make it go from 48-54 or 56, is fine!! But if I’m at a level where I can beat the Champion, I’m probably sweeping the first two Elite 4 fights with no deaths.

 

[Karxrida]

Both SwSh and SV have the design issue of catering to people who are just bumrushing through the game.

Those level curves are designed for speedrunners. You really can't explore at all or the game is cooked.

Kind of a shame, really. They invested so much in building these worlds, but if you interact with them, you'll break the game.

So I was catching up on stuff, stumbled onto this thread, and this reply specifically made me laugh because of a video I watched semi-recently about how Scarlet and Violet is not a good speedgame at all for Any%.

The run is over 5 hours long -- which I believe is the longest of any mainline Pokémon game -- and plagued with too many issues to make it fun. What unskippable cutscenes and forced battle animations can do. The still unpatched memory leak and other technical issues don't help.

 

[Hugin]

At some point I want to do an analysis of game balance in various Pokemons based on how many different non-HM users the speedrun requires in order to beat the game(all badges). Because if you can rush through with a single early catch or making 1 swap, that's probably a bad sign.

 

[Basedwell]

So I was catching up on stuff, stumbled onto this thread, and this reply specifically made me laugh because of a video I watched semi-recently about how Scarlet and Violet is not a good speedgame at all for Any%.

The run is over 5 hours long -- which I believe is the longest of any mainline Pokémon game -- and plagued with too many issues to make it fun. What unskippable cutscenes and forced battle animations can do. The still unpatched memory leak and other technical issues don't help.

I don’t think they meant speedrunning in a literal sense, but moreso that Pokemon games used to reward exploration with extra items, and occasionally necessary ones too, and now exploring feels like it trivializes the games because you level up too quickly and the rewards aren’t worth the time it takes.

Some things in the video rubbed me the wrong way, and I think a lot of their issues with the game are real, but idc that they affect speedrunners, but hearing about speedrunning strats is always fun.

 

[Omastar68]

Well, I wouldn't know core games which one. I mean I've played them tons, even on reruns some, but I just don't pay attention. I CAN say explorers of dungeon games(that I've played) are good about it. But ofc not what it's about presumably but...why no? Why can't it be them? It takes forever to get "overleveled," but I never felt under leveled in stories.