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Whimsicott
- Thread starter Manaphy
- Start date
^Because you're sapping the same amount of health either way, and you need to have 1/4 of your health be as low as possible, so that you can keep setting up subs and profitting on health.
It's a bad set. A good cott doesn't want efficient subseeding at the cost of it's bulk, it wants to prank stuff with Encore, Taunt and Stun Spore, and needs bulk to do it.
Stop running these asinine subseeding sets. You want Encore / Leech Seed / U-turn / filler that isn't sub. Whimsicott is supposed to switch in and steal momentum from setuppers and scare out walls, scouting with U-Turn.
Stop running these asinine subseeding sets. You want Encore / Leech Seed / U-turn / filler that isn't sub. Whimsicott is supposed to switch in and steal momentum from setuppers and scare out walls, scouting with U-Turn.
for that filler i recommend taunt, stun spore or worry seed.
worry seed really helps if you are against a toxiced reuniclus who is the last pokemon on the opponents team, calm minding away and u have no way to break through it. encore calm mind and worry seed. done.
also works with gliscor.
u might think its situational but its great.
worry seed really helps if you are against a toxiced reuniclus who is the last pokemon on the opponents team, calm minding away and u have no way to break through it. encore calm mind and worry seed. done.
also works with gliscor.
u might think its situational but its great.
Are you kidding?
Substitute is a great move on Whimsicott. Granted not for the sole purpose of subseeding, but it has a great deal of use for scouting, stalling, etc. which Leech Seed helps it do longer. Substitute easily over U-turn. Does just as good a job of scouting, if not better, as well as makes prediction much easier.
Substitute is a great move. If you get one up, your opponent has much raegy times ahead.
What people don't seem to realize is there isn't any one set Whimsicott can run- they have the best and worst case of four-move-supporter-syndrome in the game, which means they can be as unpredictable as they want. U-Turn scouting, Subseeding, Doubles setup, even the semi-offensive Specs+Switcheroo. People need to stop trying to neatly fit Whimsicott into a box and realize that it's impossible (for good reason- have you seen all that puff?!)
What people don't seem to realize is there isn't any one set Whimsicott can run- they have the best and worst case of four-move-supporter-syndrome in the game, which means they can be as unpredictable as they want. U-Turn scouting, Subseeding, Doubles setup, even the semi-offensive Specs+Switcheroo. People need to stop trying to neatly fit Whimsicott into a box and realize that it's impossible (for good reason- have you seen all that puff?!)
Substitute is one of the worst moves you could have on whimsicott, mostly because subseeding is one of the weakest strategies you could employ in a competitive environment. I'm not going to go into detail and explain why for the 75th time....it's all over this thread, and the argument is what the majority of this thread has been about, so go back and read it and stuff.
The strategy is not subseeding. The strategy just uses Substitute and Leech Seed. It's a support Pokémon that runs both moves. With Encore and Prankster, you come in on an opponent who just used a stat boosting or other such move, and you force them to predict. Odds are they switch to escape being Encored, and you get up your Sub. You're so much more dangerous behind that Sub. You get the ability to Stun Spore, Leech Seed, or Taunt whatever comes in, possibly force another switch, and really just torment your opponent as well as scout. It's not a subseed set, it's a support set that's augmented by Substitute.
I don't see the point of Substitute. Your wasting 25% of your health when just straight up Leech Seeding or Taunting would accomplish much more. Also, pretty much all of the things that can take care of Whimsicott are Grass-types, and those are much more easily handled by Taunt and Encore.
If they switch out while you maintain a sub up then nothing happens do you know why?
'Cause the opponent will be switching into one of his counters for this thing.
You know any grass type,Reuniclus,Tentacruel etc...
So you will still switch out having lost 25% of ur health thx to sub,without having accomplished anything.Congrats!!!
Sub is surely a good move for every poke and if the green pixie could afford to run it it would,because sometimes subseeding has its merits.Some LITTLE times.
But unfortunately it has 4 moveslot syndrome.4 slots are merely enough even without sub for it.It wishes it could have all of Worry Seed/Stun Spore/Taunt in the last slot but it can't.
So before even speaking about sub let's talk about which of these 3 moves fit better in the 4th slot...
I have been trying one with Worry Seed and it has been working greatly!
Gliscor is one of the most annoying pokes to face right now and Worry Seed takes care of him so nicely!!!
It also screws Reuniclus,Excadrill,Venusaur and Breloom so much!!!I love it!
Although Stun Spore is very useful for stopping everything that threatens ur team(a little bit unreliable though)and Taunt is great if your team lacks a good spinner or it hates status from foes like Jellicent or Rotom-W.I am not mentioning boosting moves because Encore already takes care of them...
I guess it really depends on what your team needs and there is no all around best option for this 4th slot.
That's the problem though. There are so many pokemon that Whimsicott just flat out cannot handle. A good opponent will force cott out, regardlesss of it's sub. What are you going to do to Ferrothorn? If you're not running Taunt, it'll set up Spikes, and Encore won't stop it.
What you want to do is U-turn. Just seeing Whimsicott switch in is an indicator to switch out, and U-turn gives you the momentum, which is why you're using it in the first place. Subbing as a go-to strategy is just goin to drain your health, and a smart opponent won't let you get your mileage out of Leech Seed. That noob set that just sits behind subs and annoys you might be effective against stall, but offensive teams have a field day with it.
It's actually one of the most efficient and reliable switch-forcers that pokemon has ever seen...you just have to know how to play it right. And playing it right is never, ever using substitute. All you have to do is this:
1) look at the OU usage list
2) notice how 90% of it laughs maniacally at subseeders
3) realize that using sub is throwing 25% of your health away when you could have done something useful instead
4) learn to encore/u-turn
5) profit
1) look at the OU usage list
2) notice how 90% of it laughs maniacally at subseeders
3) realize that using sub is throwing 25% of your health away when you could have done something useful instead
4) learn to encore/u-turn
5) profit
I would believe you if I hadn't used Whimsicott extensively myself, and my set is always the MVP in my battles.
As was said before, you're not focusing on Subseeding. You sub as they switch, Lefties heals, you throw out Leech Seed if they aren't immune to it, and you have chortles as Leech Seed heals pretty much all the health you used on Sub and drive your opponent bonkers with Encore/Taunt as appropriate. Taunted a Ferrothorn? Time for your set-up sweeper to have a field day. Encored a set-up sweeper into setting up? ...I shouldn't have to explain what happens next.
As was said before, you're not focusing on Subseeding. You sub as they switch, Lefties heals, you throw out Leech Seed if they aren't immune to it, and you have chortles as Leech Seed heals pretty much all the health you used on Sub and drive your opponent bonkers with Encore/Taunt as appropriate. Taunted a Ferrothorn? Time for your set-up sweeper to have a field day. Encored a set-up sweeper into setting up? ...I shouldn't have to explain what happens next.
Yeah, which setup sweeper is this? Do they enjoy gyro balls to the face?
No setup sweepers is stupid enough to switch in AND set up on a whimsicott.
Plus,without worry seed you now have many more counters, and you lose hp.
Seriously, sub is not a good move on whimsi. It has enough hard counters and trouble with getting outstalled without sub adding to the problem.
No setup sweepers is stupid enough to switch in AND set up on a whimsicott.
Plus,without worry seed you now have many more counters, and you lose hp.
Seriously, sub is not a good move on whimsi. It has enough hard counters and trouble with getting outstalled without sub adding to the problem.
Many setup sweepers don't care about taking a move from a support pokemon, yes. Nevermind that about a million things resist steel.
Yes, no setup sweeper is going to switch in and set up on Whimsicott. Whimsicott comes in on the setup sweeper as it sets up, obviously.
...Quite frankly, I don't find Worry Seed effective. At all. It deals with Reuniclus, and that's pretty much it. But you don't want Whimsicott to have to deal with them- Whimsicott's purpose is to help other pokemon KO, not to do the KOing themselves.
I can understand not running Sub on a U-turn Whimsicott. That's basically an oxymoron. But the thing is that Subsicott IS effective. You don't switch out when you still have the sub up- that's just stupid. You use one of your crippling moves as they break your sub, then switch.
I understand that U-turn+Encore works extremely well for stealing momentum. But what I can't stand is that you can't seem to accept that Whimsicott can do things other than steal momentum just as effectively. I prefer to use my Whimsicott for crippling my opposition, and it excels at that. Also, I would like to mention that Sub is a great move for scouting what your opponent will do. Everyone goes 'blablaLose25%blabla' but, in my experience, this has been a non-issue. Even if you switched out immediately after using each Sub (which would make you a massive idiot), you can still Sub 5 times, thanks to Lefties. That's assuming you get no turns where you can just sit safely behind your sub and restore health. It's also assuming you never get off a Leech Seed. As you can see, you're near guaranteed to get more than 5 Subs. Much, much more. Also, I would like to point out that Subsicott can outstall or defeat ST Chandelure. And come out alive. Even if Chandelure has a Scarf.
Sub has nothing to do with encore.
Worry seed beats reuini AND breloom AND tenta, not to mention gliscor.
And that's assuming that SS isn't up.
And which setup sweepers are you talking about exactly? Volcarona and lucario seem alright, but lucario needs to not have a balloon and is pretty damn rare these days too. Exca resists it but has high speed, low def, and often carries a balloon anyways, so he's taking almost half his health. If he's got an LO, you could just gyro ball again and finish him. If he's got a balloon, then you've already screwed him out of it. Mence has intimidate but high speed, DDnite is irrelevant because breaking his multiscale is good enough, so on and so forth.
And against any competent team that's a safe assumption, thank you very much.
Worry seed beats reuini AND breloom AND tenta, not to mention gliscor.
And that's assuming that SS isn't up.
And which setup sweepers are you talking about exactly? Volcarona and lucario seem alright, but lucario needs to not have a balloon and is pretty damn rare these days too. Exca resists it but has high speed, low def, and often carries a balloon anyways, so he's taking almost half his health. If he's got an LO, you could just gyro ball again and finish him. If he's got a balloon, then you've already screwed him out of it. Mence has intimidate but high speed, DDnite is irrelevant because breaking his multiscale is good enough, so on and so forth.
And against any competent team that's a safe assumption, thank you very much.
The thing is that Whimsicott doesn't need a sub to succesfully cripple the opponent.
If you have Leech Seed/U-Turn/Encore/Stun Spore for example you do the following:
Switch in on a setupper or on a recovering move and use Encore if u predict them attacking or Stun Spore if you predict them switchin out.
If they stay in and get encored then you just use Stun Spore on their switch-in,or on the encored poke if it so stupid to stay still,and then you safely switch out with U-Turn.
With Sub what are you doing better?Considering that you said that u-turn with sub is counterproductive i take it that you are using sub over u-turn right?
So you switch in on the setupper,encore if you predict them attacking,or sub if you predict them switching out right?
And after the next poke comes in you are behind a sub ok?
So what can you do behind a sub?
Leech Seed or Stun Spore them!
So you spend a turn using one of these 2 moves while they break the sub and then what?You keep using sub till they die from Leech Seed?That's not going to happen against any competitive player.And yes that is subseeding.The only reason you are running sub is to rack up leech seed damage not to ease prediction since Whimsicott doesn't need any help to predict from sub.
So in both situations you aqquire the same thing(assuming equal predicting skills in both situations)except that with u-turn you keep the momentum in case they switch or you do sone little damage in case they don't.
So with u-turn you gain more while not even accounting for the situations which u-turn helps you with greatly in case you must switch out immediately after you encore something.
Finally you can escape from ST Chandy anyways with u-turn so you are fine!
Wrong. With U-Turn you actually lose out on momentum more often then with Sub. Say you are facing a Tyranitar. This is first turn, lead against lead. What are you going to do? If you run Sub you will obviously Sub. This allows you to scout the opponents move and strategy, and then take appropriate action. If the attack with Fire Blast it is a good idea to go to a fire resist. If they switch, unless the switch is too a Grass type (rare in this Meta) You have the option to SubSeed, and rack upresidual damage while they try and break your strategy. Name one pokemon that is in the Top 20 (Outside Reuniclus who is a Hard counter to any Whimsicott) that can then gain back momentum without losing health? No one? Thought so. If they do happen to run a grass type, or they bring out their Reuniclus, you can hit them with a Stun Spore, the only status that really effects Reuniclus. Then you switch to an appropriate counter. Behind that Sub you have the opportunity to wear down pokemon much faster and more efficiently then the pitiful damage U-Turn causes.
Now let us see U-Turn. You can't risk staying in because of the Fire Blast so this is your only option on the set. So you u-Turn. Yay SE hit! then he proceeds to roast whatever comes in, or set up Rocks, or Dragon Dance, or Ice Beam, or Crunch, or basically whatever it really wanted to do. Oh they switched you say? To what? Celebi? and now you need to bring out your Scizor to continue the momentum with u-Turn. No Celebi in its right mind stays in on Scizor. Except all those ones that run HP Fire. Then what about Heatran? Tyranitar will just come back in and set up, and you will be back to square one.
Now I do realize U-Turn can be useful, but on a Pokemon that can SubSeed almost anything to death it really is an inferior option.
I have some bad news about Ferrothorn. You might wanna sit down for this...
I didn't mean in terms of single Pokemon usage. Overall Grass types are rare, more pokemon of other types are used overall then Grass. I did forget about Ferro though, it was late at night and I had just finished getting my thumb glued back together after cutting it.
Wrong. T-tar gets up rocks, but then instead of facing down, say, an excadrill, it's up against a subbed whimsicott. Cue the hard counter, whimsi is gone again.
And many celebis DO run hp fire, including the NP set, which is the best set around at the moment. Besides, your strategy required you to switch in 2 pokemon, so you just lost 12% on both w/rocks, while he didn't. If you u-turned at least you do some damage and can bring in something to threaten t-tar. Besides, who sais you have either of those pokemon? And what if you mispredict? Maybe you bring it in on a rotom-wash switchin and suddenly heatran has to run to something. If you say whismsicott it won't enjoy taking a hydro pump, then a volt switch.
First of all you are referring to a specific situation,when i am referring to a general situation.
Anyone knows that Whimsicott is switching-in when some set-up is involved.
You can always lead with him but it is up to you depending on the opponents team.
Because the green pixie works better as a lead with sub doesn't mean u should run it 'cause leads are not staple.
What is staple though is the ability to make any setup useless and that is what you should try to capitilize on!
So with u-turn you are in a better position when doing your usual job(forcing out setup sweepers),while with sub you are in a better position when leading which is a specific and not generic situation.
Chose whatever fits better to you then.
To me it seems that having the better result in the usual situations is better than having the upper hand in some specific situations.
Finally what do you mean when saying that grass types aren't common ?
In which metagame where you playing?
Ferrothorn is in every 4th team...There are also Virizion,Reuniclus,Gliscor,Breloom,Celebi,Espeon and some more that i may forget,which can shut down every attempt for subseeding.There is also Scizor which can simply u-turn out to get rid of leech seed and break your sub at the same time!!!Scizor,Ferro and Gliscor are in the top 10 of usage!Hoping that you don't see any of these complete counters to Whimsi in a team means that you are clearly hoping for a miracle...
So yes subseeding is very unviable and very situational and not worth over the momentum that U-turn gives you...
If you want Whimsi to act as a dedicated lead then by all means,use sub.But the role of the lead poke is almost dead,'cause of team preview,so i don't really know how good of a choice is to have a dedicated lead poke...
But if you want him to do his main job better,meaning stealing momentum,then u-turn is better.