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Whimsicott

tehy said:
Wrong. T-tar gets up rocks, but then instead of facing down, say, an excadrill, it's up against a subbed whimsicott. Cue the hard counter, whimsi is gone again.
And many celebis DO run hp fire, including the NP set, which is the best set around at the moment. Besides, your strategy required you to switch in 2 pokemon, so you just lost 12% on both w/rocks, while he didn't. If you u-turned at least you do some damage and can bring in something to threaten t-tar. Besides, who sais you have either of those pokemon? And what if you mispredict? Maybe you bring it in on a rotom-wash switchin and suddenly heatran has to run to something. If you say whismsicott it won't enjoy taking a hydro pump, then a volt switch.
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And if that TTar attacked with Fire Blast? You just lost your Excadrill. Or your Whimsicott. Either way you are now down 1 Pokemon and the match just started.

What counter? Like I said name a Pokemon that hard counters Whimsicott, in the top 20, even 30, besides Reuniclus. There isn't any. If you are behind a Sub you have complete control over what happens next. If they lack a Grass type or a magical pokemon you can go to town Subseeding everything. You seed the TTar that is out and Sub seed it to death. If they switch you gain Leech Seed on their pokemon that is out now. Then you can Paralyze whatever it is to make the pain really begin. If Ferro comes out Taunt it then switch to your steel killer (Every decent team has one in this Meta) if nothing else Whimsicott is only 3HKO'd by Gyro Ball, and power whip fails to even break your Sub. U-Turn will always be an inferior option on a pokemon that has a priority Sub to scout.

BTW I am basing all of this off of the set of moves I run Sub/Leech Seed/Taunt/Stun Spore.

Finally what do you mean when saying that grass types aren't common ?
In which metagame where you playing?
Ferrothorn is in every 4th team...There are also Virizion,Reuniclus,Gliscor,Breloom,Celebi,Espeon and some more that i may forget,which can shut down every attempt for subseeding.There is also Scizor which can simply u-turn out to get rid of leech seed and break your sub at the same time!!!Scizor,Ferro and Gliscor are in the top 10 of usage!Hoping that you don't see any of these complete counters to Whimsi in a team means that you are clearly hoping for a miracle...
So yes subseeding is very unviable and very situational and not worth over the momentum that U-turn gives you...
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How the heck does Gliscor do ANYTHING to Whimsicott? U-Turn is the only option it has against Whimsicott. Priority Taunt makes it basically dead weight. Also even including the usage of Ferrothorn you will only be facing Grass pokemon ~12% of the time. Also, none of those enjoy being Paralyzed.
 
Lol
Ferrothorn,celebi,gliscor, breloom. If you switch out of ferro you just lots 25% hp, ditto for the rest.
I think u-turn AND sub are shit, worry seed's where it's at.
Besides, maybe you get in a terakion for example. Point is, you can get in something dangerous.
 
Byrn Dragonstone said:
And if that TTar attacked with Fire Blast? You just lost your Excadrill. Or your Whimsicott. Either way you are now down 1 Pokemon and the match just started.

What counter? Like I said name a Pokemon that hard counters Whimsicott, in the top 20, even 30, besides Reuniclus. There isn't any. If you are behind a Sub you have complete control over what happens next. If they lack a Grass type or a magical pokemon you can go to town Subseeding everything. You seed the TTar that is out and Sub seed it to death. If they switch you gain Leech Seed on their pokemon that is out now. Then you can Paralyze whatever it is to make the pain really begin. If Ferro comes out Taunt it then switch to your steel killer (Every decent team has one in this Meta) if nothing else Whimsicott is only 3HKO'd by Gyro Ball, and power whip fails to even break your Sub. U-Turn will always be an inferior option on a pokemon that has a priority Sub to scout.

BTW I am basing all of this off of the set of moves I run Sub/Leech Seed/Taunt/Stun Spore.
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You really don't read what others post right???
Celebi,Gliscor,Breloom,Reuniclus,Ferro,Espeon and Scizor all hard counter the set you are running.3 of these pokes are in the top 10 just to inform you.So yes it is very hard to find a counter for Whimsi the way YOU use it.
Also without Encore good luck with finding good setup oportunities and kudos to you for having wasted this pokes greatest move and utility!
 
alexwolf said:
You really don't read what others post right???
Celebi,Gliscor,Breloom,Reuniclus,Ferro,Espeon and Scizor all hard counter the set you are running.3 of these pokes are in the top 10 just to inform you.So yes it is very hard to find a counter for Whimsi the way YOU use it.
Also without Encore good luck with finding good setup oportunities and kudos to you for having wasted this pokes greatest move and utility!
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Gliscor is no counter, see above. Ferro is a check at best, setup fodder at worst. Espeon dosn't really do anything besides bounce taunts back. And Scizor can be Paralyzed.

Reuniclus, Celebi, and Breloom are the only hard counters that you listed. Go play the game and then come back and tell me about it. Encore is wasted on Whimsicott. Nobody leaves their setup sweeper in on it, due to chances of Para/Encore, so it is literally useless.
 
Gliscor is a counter, you might recover but not much besides that, and he'll just keep mowing down your subs.
Ferro is a hard counter, just because you can switch out doesn't mean shit, espeon walls everything you do, scizor doesn't care about paralysis, forretress rapid spins shit.
 
Byrn Dragonstone said:
Gliscor is no counter, see above. Ferro is a check at best, setup fodder at worst. Espeon dosn't really do anything besides bounce taunts back. And Scizor can be Paralyzed.

Reuniclus, Celebi, and Breloom are the only hard counters that you listed. Go play the game and then come back and tell me about it. Encore is wasted on Whimsicott. Nobody leaves their setup sweeper in on it, due to chances of Para/Encore, so it is literally useless.
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First of all when i posted my last post you hadn't added the part about gliscor.

Now let's talk about Gliscor and how he handles Whimsi.Let's talk about Gliscor's most used set ice fang/eq/sd/taunt.
Honestly what could Whimsi possibly hope to do at Gliscor?
Gliscor is losing no health due to its ability,doesn't care about taunt and cannot be stuned.So good job outstalling ice fangs 24 pps with your subs 16 pps.
Gliscor definitely counters your set easily!

Let's get on!
Espeon can't do anything besides bouncing back taunt?
Except maybe attack and kill you with psychic or Hp Fire or gladly setup on you with CM,sure it can't do anything else.
Ferro is not a check at best he is a counter at best and a check at worst.Let me remind you that if Ferro has Gyro ball your set instatly loses.If it lacks it then nor you nor him can hurt each other and that's why i said check.
Scizor doesn't give a shit about being paralyzed so i don't really know what you are talking about...

So as it seems there are many viable counters to the subseeder set you are using.
Finally in your arguement about encore i can't even describe how flawed this logic is....
If you made them switch out then fine this is your job even if you didn't encore something.
But at least you forced the dangerous sweeper out.
But what if you lack this move and the opponent knows it?Then it will just gladly attack with its boosted moves.
So good luck handling threats like boosted terakion,volcarona,excadrill,dragonite,salamence,thundrus and many more that Whimsi with encore so nicely checks!
Of course you can always try to subseed them!!!
Good luck with that man!!!
 
Now let's talk about Gliscor and how he handles Whimsi.Let's talk about Gliscor's most used set ice fang/eq/sd/taunt.
Honestly what could Whimsi possibly hope to do at Gliscor?
Gliscor is losing no health due to its ability,doesn't care about taunt and cannot be stuned.So good job outstalling ice fangs 24 pps with your subs 16 pps.
Gliscor definitely counters your set easily!
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22.2% - 26.5% That is the damage your Gliscor deals. Which means that you have a 65% chance of keeping your Sub. You heal at least 18.5% of that back every turn. Tell me how the heck that is a counter? Cause you ain't getting off a Swords Dance...

Let's get on!
Espeon can't do anything besides bouncing back taunt?
Except maybe attack and kill you with psychic or Hp Fire or gladly setup on you with CM,sure it can't do anything else.
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Behind a Sub.... You just gained back 12% of your health from lefties, are able to scout its moveset (What it HP it carries, or whether it is a Dual Screener or not. If it is a Dual Screener you can take appropriate action. If it attacks and breaks your sub then next turn switch to TTar for Pursuit KO. Or Metagross. Or Scizor. Or half the Meta... Never said Espeon didn't stop Whimsicott, just that it doesn't mean Whimsicott is going to die.

Ferro is not a check at best he is a counter at best and a check at worst.Let me remind you that if Ferro has Gyro ball your set instatly loses.If it lacks it then nor you nor him can hurt each other and that's why i said check.
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A Ferro not setting up Hazards is a Ferro not doing its job. And it gives a free turn for almost anything to come in and set up. Bring in your Volcorona and start a sweep. Hazards is 90% of the reason people use Ferrothorn, if it doesn't get them up it is dead weight 50% of the time.

Scizor doesn't give a shit about being paralyzed so i don't really know what you are talking about...
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It doesn't really care for the Speed drop, but the 1-out-of-every-4-attacks-not-working is a big deal for every pokemon. It can mean life or death. Other then that though Scizor can check Whimsicott decently. (Surprise HP fire FTW)

So as it seems there are many viable counters to the subseeder set you are using.
Finally in your arguement about encore i can't even describe how flawed this logic is....
If you made them switch out then fine this is your job even if you didn't encore something.
But at least you forced the dangerous sweeper out.
But what if you lack this move and the opponent knows it?Then it will just gladly attack with its boosted moves.
So good luck handling threats like boosted terakion,volcarona,excadrill,dragonite,salamence,t hundrus and many more that Whimsi with encore so nicely checks!
Of course you can always try to subseed them!!!
Good luck with that man!!!
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They perform different roles. If the enemy already setup they can either 1) Attack, since lots of Whimsicott carry Encore they generally don't. If you use Encore it fails. If you use Sub then it generally breaks your Sub, then you can Para them and bring in a Revenge killer. 2) Switch, which if you use Encore you just wasted a move, while if you used Sub you can Para and seed the switch ins.

Whimsicott can handle Volcarona if it switches in on you, otherwise you should be running away all the time. Terakion loses to both sets. Excadrill loses to both sets. Dragonite loses to both sets. Salamence loses to both sets. Thunderus wins if it is running taunt against either set, unless you run Max Speed, which means you have less bulk and die much, much, much faster.

Your argument is so full of holes that I am tired of pointing out. Go out and play with Whimsicott before you begin to tell others how to use it.

Also your argument changed from U-Turn to Encore, which can be run on my set over Taunt, though you then have issues with Ferrothorn.
 
Dude, gliscor lols. Especially if he has enough attack evs to break your sub, and then you're forgetting that SS is probably up, so more like 12% of hp.

Whimsi cannot handle volcarona w/out encore. Period. Same for the others. Period.
And excadrill can just spin away leech seeds too.

Seriously, gliscor rapes, ferro hard counters, so much shit just comes in and starts loling.

Besides, if gliscor can't break your subs then why are you even subbing? Ditto for ferrothorn. I mean, yes you can have answers to those pokemon withint whimsicott, but that's nothing to do with the sub-whimsi can almost always force ferro to spam gyro balls anyhow.

Yeah, sub whimsicott can allow ferro to be set up on, but so can ANY OTHER WHIMSICOTT. Any other whimsicott can likewise screw with stat-uppers.
 
Now I do realize U-Turn can be useful, but on a Pokemon that can SubSeed almost anything to death it really is an inferior option.
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This is why im convinced that subseeding whimsicott users don't actually play pokemon. They say stuff like this.

The truth is that almost nothing can be subseeded to death, but every hard counter whimsicott has - and there are like 30 - are all completely circumvented by u-turn. Substitute does nothing but remove your precious health and add about 20 pokemon to your hard counter list.

I actually went down a list of every OU pokemon at one point and said exactly what happens when you use sub against it. Go back and read it, or...you know...play the game and find out for yourself. Because the majority of what you say has 'i don't actually play' written all over it. Sorry to sound too confrontational.
 
I don't think this guy understands the meaning of counter.

Ferrothorn and Gliscor come in, Whimsicott can't do shit. I don't care if its a power whip ferrothorn or a Gliscor with only earthquake (crappy but somehow a few exist), what is whimsicott going to do, eventually it will lose the "stall war?" Its only option is to switch out.

Oh wait, we have u-turn, and I get to see what they switch too before I switch, and I don't lose 25% of my health in the process, sweet.
 
Byrn Dragonstone said:
22.2% - 26.5% That is the damage your Gliscor deals. Which means that you have a 65% chance of keeping your Sub. You heal at least 18.5% of that back every turn. Tell me how the heck that is a counter? Cause you ain't getting off a Swords Dance...


Behind a Sub.... You just gained back 12% of your health from lefties, are able to scout its moveset (What it HP it carries, or whether it is a Dual Screener or not. If it is a Dual Screener you can take appropriate action. If it attacks and breaks your sub then next turn switch to TTar for Pursuit KO. Or Metagross. Or Scizor. Or half the Meta... Never said Espeon didn't stop Whimsicott, just that it doesn't mean Whimsicott is going to die.


A Ferro not setting up Hazards is a Ferro not doing its job. And it gives a free turn for almost anything to come in and set up. Bring in your Volcorona and start a sweep. Hazards is 90% of the reason people use Ferrothorn, if it doesn't get them up it is dead weight 50% of the time.


It doesn't really care for the Speed drop, but the 1-out-of-every-4-attacks-not-working is a big deal for every pokemon. It can mean life or death. Other then that though Scizor can check Whimsicott decently. (Surprise HP fire FTW)


They perform different roles. If the enemy already setup they can either 1) Attack, since lots of Whimsicott carry Encore they generally don't. If you use Encore it fails. If you use Sub then it generally breaks your Sub, then you can Para them and bring in a Revenge killer. 2) Switch, which if you use Encore you just wasted a move, while if you used Sub you can Para and seed the switch ins.

Whimsicott can handle Volcarona if it switches in on you, otherwise you should be running away all the time. Terakion loses to both sets. Excadrill loses to both sets. Dragonite loses to both sets. Salamence loses to both sets. Thunderus wins if it is running taunt against either set, unless you run Max Speed, which means you have less bulk and die much, much, much faster.

Your argument is so full of holes that I am tired of pointing out. Go out and play with Whimsicott before you begin to tell others how to use it.

Also your argument changed from U-Turn to Encore, which can be run on my set over Taunt, though you then have issues with Ferrothorn.
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Do you even get what we are telling you???
Do you get the meaning of a counter or a check?
Do you get how difficult subseeding is in this gen???
If not the we can't talk anymore.If you cannot even realize these facts then stay ignorant.Fine by me...
 
i feel obliged to post since i was one of the first people to really advocate the usage of U-turn over Substitute on Erufuun.

I disagree, I've found Erufuun to always pull it's weight on my teams and it has found its way into the pool of 20~ Pokemon that all my teams are comprised of.

I think the main reason you may have found her underwhelming is peoples insistence on using stupid SubSeed sets. PO statistics list the most popular set as:

Whimsicott @ Leftovers Lv. 100 -- Prankster



  • Leech Seed
  • Substitute
  • Protect
  • Encore
This is a fucking terrible set. It may be able to frustrate the occassional poor player but any decent player is gonna use this to set up Spikes with Ferrothorn, bring in Reuniclus or Breloom or Virizion or just Taunt you and look at you like you're stupid. And don't even get me started on Espeon. It's an inconsistent set at best...could somebody who uses it explain to me what it's purpose on a team is? To check stat boosters with Encore and then hope the opponent is dumb enough to let you SubSeed them to death? It literally can't do anything else.

So anyway, here's what I use.

Erufuun @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD

- Encore
- U-turn
- Leech Seed
- Stun Spore / Taunt

Encore is obvious and should be on every Erufuun set because it is solid gold in this 'BOOST BOOST BOOST' metagame. If you're not using U-turn on Erufuun you're not doing it right so it's a bit upsetting to see you have to go as far as PO's 12th most popular set to find somebody using it. Erufuun forces a boatload of switches whether it's through fear of being Encored into a boosting move, fear of being crippled by Stun Spore or urgency to escape Leech Seed so U-turn is excellent for scouting and keeping momentum (it even hits common switch-ins such as Espeon, Latios, and Celebi for respectable damage). If you're ballsy/have a good feel for your opponent, there's nothing sweeter than switching in on a Dory Swords Dance and U-turning off the bat as they switch out to avoid Encore (not gonna lie, I've been spiked by a few X-Scissors attempting that heh). Priority Stun Spore is great and lets you check all sorts of shit, whereas Taunt prevents Ferrothorn from coming in for free and setting up. Obviously it forces a tonne of switches so entry hazard support is a must. An excellent team support Pokemon imo.

I stand by what I've said there (although I've fallen in love with Memento in the last slot and teaming Erufuun up with Cloyster). Erufuun has such a wide and valuable movepool including Encore, Taunt, Stun Spore, Leech Seed, U-turn, Memento, Tailwind, Light Screen, Worry Seed, Charm, Tickle and Trick Room. Sub is wasteful with regards to moveslots and more often than not, is wasteful when used in battle. It may ease prediction occassionally but if you're not comfortable with your prediction skills then Whimsicott probably isn't the right Poke for you anyway.

but since you're so adamant that SubSeed is this almighty annoyer capable of 'subseeding almost anything to death,' could you provide some logs of it performing well against good players? i'd be very interested to see them.
 
While subseed is not the almighty annoyer capable of "subseeding almost anyone to death" if you run taunt over protect it can become pretty annoying how does ferrothorn set up spikes when it gets taunted? or how about breloom and reuniclus?
they are both less effective when taunted right? (well not techniloom but you know what im saying. virizion and espeon um yeah... good luck with that. U-turn is a good option though and i also support using it on whimsicott but subseed CAN work, just use taunt PLEASE!!!! it makes things much easier and forces MORE switches than whimsicott usually does (Read: a lot) and that helps you get more residual damage which is the point of subseed not "subseeding things to death".
 
Coming from someone who originally thought SubSeeding Whimsicott was effective, it really is indeed just a waste of HP and time.

If you set up Sub, you're getting forced out. Period. What you accomplish with Substitute, you do better and for free with Whimsicott's other moves.

The only merit Sub has is scouting moves on something like T-tar, which runs a variety of sets, since you wouldn't want to U-turn say something like Scizor into Fire Blast when you're predicting Crunch. But that is really the only use you're going to get out of it that cannot be done with the other moves.

Whimsicott doesn't stay in all day gaining health from Leech Seed like you think. It's in and out fairly quickly or it's too busy doing something useful to worry about setting up Substitutes; odds are it doesn't have time to get comfy and SubSeed for even just a few turns.

EDIT: And who the fuck was trying to out-stall Gilscor? Who are you playing against that such a crazy thing actually worked?
 
Ms. Denbo said:
Coming from someone who originally thought SubSeeding Whimsicott was effective, it really is indeed just a waste of HP and time.

If you set up Sub, you're getting forced out. Period. What you accomplish with Substitute, you do better and for free with Whimsicott's other moves.

The only merit Sub has is scouting moves on something like T-tar, which runs a variety of sets, since you wouldn't want to U-turn say something like Scizor into Fire Blast when you're predicting Crunch. But that is really the only use you're going to get out of it that cannot be done with the other moves.

Whimsicott doesn't stay in all day gaining health from Leech Seed like you think. It's in and out fairly quickly or it's too busy doing something useful to worry about setting up Substitutes; odds are it doesn't have time to get comfy and SubSeed for even just a few turns.
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thank you U-turn is the better choice on whimsicott was just saying if you HAVE to use subseed PLEASE run taunt, not protect
 
I've been trying to make use of worry seed but I've noticed that worry seed works better together with Substitute and leech seed, then with u-turn. U-turn works better with stun spore.

Worry seed with U turn is only useful when the opposing team has a gliscor or breloom on their team who has their toxic orb activated, if not then a predicted stun spore can catch their gliscor or breloom off guard and stuck with a status they don't want.

Other wise worry seed is useless on Reuniclus and Tentacruel and other pokemon that need their abilities with the exception of double speed pokemon in weather that use lum berries which can heal off status from stun spore.

btw is it useful to run Speed evs if you're using u-turn?

I've been running Jolly with 248 speed EVs to outspeed base 115s like starmie, probably a bad idea but dealing damage on the switch is generally useful.

I guess I could lower my speed and invest more in bulk

maybe
base 110s like Espeon with 208 Evs
base 108s like Virizion with 192 Evs or
base 100s like Celebi with 128 Evs or
base 95s like Gliscor with 88 Evs or

I haven't run Worry seed together with Leech seed and u turn yet but stun spore is so useful and no one is stupid enough to drop encore hmmm....
 
Sorry for the bump, but has anyone thought of using this guy for Trick Room set up? I just realized he got it. He can fairly easily force a switch, then set up Trick Room, and he doesn't care about speed with Prankster, so he works well in or out of it. Maybe:

Trick Room
Encore
Taunt
Leech Seed

Thoughts? Didn't look through the thread much, so sorry if this has already been said before. Dx
 
Trick Room is priority -7, so it would be priority -6 for Whimsicott - it's still going last. Tailwind is a better option.
 
I'm not saying for priority Trick Room; I'm not retarded. ._.

And for what little it's worth, -6 priority ties with Whirlwind and other such phazing moves for the rare times they might block other Pokémon from setting up Trick Room.

Not seeing how Tailwind is better when with Trick Room you don't have to put any investment in speed to never be out-sped whereas with Tailwind really fast Pokémon still beat your slow guys.

Whimsicott is great at forcing switches. Encore a status or stat boosting move? Taunt Ferrothorn, Forretress, etc.? Even Leech Seed (to an extent) can get your opponent to switch. With these options and priority it functions well outside of Trick Room as well as in if need be.

I just tried it last night as a lead against someone's Deoxys-S for example:

>Taunted to block Stealth Rocks
>Took Psycho Boost and set up Trick Room
>Switched out and proceeded to sweep in what would've been 6-0 had he not D/C'd.

Here Trick Room>Tailwind as Deoxys-S (though in this particular case it wouldn't have mattered) still out-speeds my sweeper.
 
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