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Serious Would you save your bully?
- Thread starter Death Phenomeno
- Start date
This is one of those 'what would you do in x when y happens', honestly: most people will act on sheer impulse when something like that happens and you can't just say: "yeah I'll do that, definitetely!"
I've been bullied for ten years straight, physically not as much, but mental torture can go a long way still: heck I'm still socially awkward thanks to it, but that's not the point. I seriously wouldn't know if I'd save one of my bullies if something like that happened a couple o years ago. But one thing is sure: if I wouldn't have saved said bully, I'd be mentally scarred even moreso and the guilt would linger over me, I mean I'm a child after all..
I've been bullied for ten years straight, physically not as much, but mental torture can go a long way still: heck I'm still socially awkward thanks to it, but that's not the point. I seriously wouldn't know if I'd save one of my bullies if something like that happened a couple o years ago. But one thing is sure: if I wouldn't have saved said bully, I'd be mentally scarred even moreso and the guilt would linger over me, I mean I'm a child after all..
Jellli the thought experiments are definitely contrived, but they're all philosophy has for '"evidence." i used them to show that it's impossible to be morally right if you were obligated to save people in need. i didn't say i wouldn't if the life was in front of me. i just don't think it's something i have to do. i am not obligated to the bully, the homeless people on the streets, or starving people in other countries, etc. pwnemon summarized p well.
its easy to say you'd let the fella drown when you're not in the situation, but i'd wager 99% of functioning people would try save him when put in the situation
i've never really been bullied outside of 'lad banter' which doesn't really count, but i'd definitely save someones life if they were drowning
i've never really been bullied outside of 'lad banter' which doesn't really count, but i'd definitely save someones life if they were drowning
Shade is basically right
But i'd let the motherfucker drown (I hope? I don't fucking know if i even do hope that or not)
I believe that bullies shouldn't be a part of this world and so part of me wants to make that a reality, but then again I don't want to let someone die regardless, and it is kind of harsh
But i'd let the motherfucker drown (I hope? I don't fucking know if i even do hope that or not)
I believe that bullies shouldn't be a part of this world and so part of me wants to make that a reality, but then again I don't want to let someone die regardless, and it is kind of harsh
Hmmm... seeing as I was a small asian kid who loved Pokemon, I was bullied-- but these were pretty isolated incidents, since I beat the ever loving shit out of every bully who thought to mess with me; often beating the shit out of him AND his crew. Size matters, but only between people who actually know martial arts. After I became an intermediate wrestling champion in 7th grade, and kept winning year after year, no bully ever thought to mess with me.
To answer the question, probably yes. Most of those guys became nice and submissive to me after-the-fact-- and we all grow up.
Btw, this is the nice thing about guy bullies-- you can resolve it with brute force 90% of the time; even if you're smaller, it won't matter if you're stronger, faster, smarter, and way way more trained. Girl bullies are a much more annoying bitch of a problem from what I understand.
It depends on what I was bullied over. I'm 20 years old now and well liked in college, work, amongst friends etc, bullying isn't really a factor in my life. In high school I was frequently harassed for being gay, but since I left I've literally never gotten any kind of shit from it from anyone. It helps that being gay isn't superficial like race, gender etc, I guess. In the case of someone having a personal vendetta against me and bullying me for it I'd probably save them. If it were someone who harassed me for being gay, I probably wouldn't save them. If I knew no one would know I did it, I would honestly let anyone who is actively prejudiced, be they racist, sexist, gay-bashers (I hate the term homophobe), or anything else die and count the world a better place.
I get the philosophy part, blara, but in crisis mode, basic instinct kicks in and you'd save the bully if you could that easily.
For example, I had new neighbors move in next door a year back (rowhomes). Their first day, the dude was redoing his back roof with a flamethrower, no idea why exactly. He accidentally lit up his own house, and in effect caught mine on fire, since they're connected. My first instinct upon seeing flames wasn't to grab valuables or to get the fuck out, but rather to run out back and yell at the dumbass who just lit my home on fire to come escape through my house, since his was more on fire. I had no obligation to a guy that just put my life in danger, but adrenaline kicks in and you can't stop yourself. It's a weird innate thing in humans.
Philosophically, you don't have to help others in danger. When the situation arises, however, you just do it. One of the few good things about people, really.
Side note, when it's something far away like save the kids in wherever, most people don't give a fuck cuz they're not in that moment. Shittier part about humans, and I usually switch those commercials off.
On that note, fucking landlord still hasn't fixed my ceiling from that fire...
For example, I had new neighbors move in next door a year back (rowhomes). Their first day, the dude was redoing his back roof with a flamethrower, no idea why exactly. He accidentally lit up his own house, and in effect caught mine on fire, since they're connected. My first instinct upon seeing flames wasn't to grab valuables or to get the fuck out, but rather to run out back and yell at the dumbass who just lit my home on fire to come escape through my house, since his was more on fire. I had no obligation to a guy that just put my life in danger, but adrenaline kicks in and you can't stop yourself. It's a weird innate thing in humans.
Philosophically, you don't have to help others in danger. When the situation arises, however, you just do it. One of the few good things about people, really.
Side note, when it's something far away like save the kids in wherever, most people don't give a fuck cuz they're not in that moment. Shittier part about humans, and I usually switch those commercials off.
On that note, fucking landlord still hasn't fixed my ceiling from that fire...
Good thing death notes aren't real.
Would you murder your bully?
The only difference between not saving your bully and killing him is that one is socially and legally more acceptable. (That batman scene is nonsensical kd.)
Opting to not save your bully while being unwilling to kill him under other circumstances is equivalent to saying you'd murder whoever you want, if you could get away with it. Would you be willing to abuse those loopholes?
I don't want to get into the argument about obligations / supererogation because I don't think there are any true obligations, just what you should and should not do. But I will partially agree with what blajaran said (and intentionally ignore his point): there is no obligation to save anyone. The question is overly general and precludes any realistic answer. In the scenario in the opening post, certainly the bully should be saved. But if the torment was continuous, over many years, had no sign of ending, other options had been exhausted and futile, and an outlet opened up, maybe it's a different question.
The only difference between not saving your bully and killing him is that one is socially and legally more acceptable. (That batman scene is nonsensical kd.)
Opting to not save your bully while being unwilling to kill him under other circumstances is equivalent to saying you'd murder whoever you want, if you could get away with it. Would you be willing to abuse those loopholes?
I don't want to get into the argument about obligations / supererogation because I don't think there are any true obligations, just what you should and should not do. But I will partially agree with what blajaran said (and intentionally ignore his point): there is no obligation to save anyone. The question is overly general and precludes any realistic answer. In the scenario in the opening post, certainly the bully should be saved. But if the torment was continuous, over many years, had no sign of ending, other options had been exhausted and futile, and an outlet opened up, maybe it's a different question.
I'm most likely never going to be in this scenario, since if someone bullies me, I'm staying the fuck away from them whenever possible. Easy for me to do because I never go to any party for any reason, and if a friend wants to hang out and I know the bully will also be hanging out with them, I'm going to politely refuse and say exactly why. If they take offense to that and decide they don't want to be my friend anymore, then I don't give a damn; the friendship probably wouldn't have worked out in the long run anyway. A lot more examples I could list, but I think you get my point. Going into social situations where you're extremely likely to encounter said bully is simply asking for trouble.
But let's imagine I were in this scenario. Yes, I'd save them. Yes, I'm a fucking asshole, but I have some empathy - at least, enough to save someone from drowning, etc. This is coming from someone who struggled with Asperger syndrome their whole life and was bullied a lot in elementary and middle school - I know the person I was in elementary/middle school would not have even considered saving them. Back then, though, I didn't know why not saving someone who bullied you would be fucked up. Then, some time around high school, I realized, "Wait, why the fuck would I let someone die?"
But let's imagine I were in this scenario. Yes, I'd save them. Yes, I'm a fucking asshole, but I have some empathy - at least, enough to save someone from drowning, etc. This is coming from someone who struggled with Asperger syndrome their whole life and was bullied a lot in elementary and middle school - I know the person I was in elementary/middle school would not have even considered saving them. Back then, though, I didn't know why not saving someone who bullied you would be fucked up. Then, some time around high school, I realized, "Wait, why the fuck would I let someone die?"
Of course i'd save him. it's a person's life we're talking about. No matter how much of a dick the guy is, I would save him, no question. This is coming from a guy who's been bullied all his life.
even then though, if it's a "grade school" level of bullying (teasing, perhaps a bit of minor physical abuse) then it is difficult to say there is "no sign of ending" etc., and if it is a more "Adult" scenario (e.g., stalking, constant harassment, etc.) then the justice system exists. In the end, who are you, as an individual (unless you are a judge or something), to ever decide, when presented with a choice, to let someone live or die? To act in self-defense is one thing, but to allow someone to drown (one of the worst ways to go, imo) because "that guy's an asshole"?
I agree with you on most points, but have to disagree w/r/t the "moral obligation" - there are channels in place to punish people in a theoretically fit manner, who are you to take it into your own hands? Most of the point of modern court/justice systems is to provide impartial intermediaries, which you, as the recipient of this persons bullying/abuse/"torment", are not.
I'm continually amazed by the pointless arguments that occur when people adopt a deontological view of ethics. There shouldn't be a difference being immoral and being an asshole. There is no test you could run to distinguish the two without rendering one completely meaningless. Yet people have this need to divide people into "good" and "bad", and that's a really flawed way of seeing the world. We just need to accept that we're moral sometimes and immoral at other times, due to cognitive biases clouding our judgment.
Everybody's been a bully. Nobody likes to think that they might have inadvertently done something wrong to someone else, but if you could read the minds of everybody who's ever been in contact with you, can you honestly say that you treated all of them with dignity all the time? "'An eye for an eye' makes the whole world blind."
P.S. I know billymills has mentioned this in the context of kd's pic, but it can't be stressed enough. Nolan's Batman is a terrible moral agent in general.
Everybody's been a bully. Nobody likes to think that they might have inadvertently done something wrong to someone else, but if you could read the minds of everybody who's ever been in contact with you, can you honestly say that you treated all of them with dignity all the time? "'An eye for an eye' makes the whole world blind."
P.S. I know billymills has mentioned this in the context of kd's pic, but it can't be stressed enough. Nolan's Batman is a terrible moral agent in general.
I like this thread because it really questions peoples mental conditioning and propels them into a realm of thought that they really havent gone before all that much or not at all; a philosophical discussion that reveals how inconsistent and frankly bad thought can be for determining reality. At best it seems that thought offers one perspective of many possible, perhaps infinite, perspectives, but not the absolute.
If only people applied to this to every part of their own thinking, and not just this thread. But then again, in the spirit of Socrates, I say that I don't even know if you should do that.
If only people applied to this to every part of their own thinking, and not just this thread. But then again, in the spirit of Socrates, I say that I don't even know if you should do that.
I think that pure thought and logic can and should be employed to make sense of reality because, well, there's really no other way to work out the contradictions in our senses. It's just that logic always has a root that one would declare self-evident. The problem occurs when that root is not in tune with reality.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. I said only if all other channels had been exhausted and returned nothing. I did not specify 'intensity' of bullying (for lack of a better word), but I think that's too subjective to really define.
Remember I said explicitly that I would save the bully in that situation. I could construct a comprehensive situation in which I would not save the bully, but it would not share any of the characteristics of the opening one.
I don't exactly see how you disagree with 'moral obligation,' which is really more of a perspective than anything actually relevant to this thread.
We are dealing here with individuals, emphasized by the would in the question. From my perspective, individuals act in the own self-interest. That means that individuals act in such a manner as to maximise some set of values. Who am I to decide, if given a choice? I am an individual, I make decisions. I would not want a government appointed judge making all my decisions for me. All I am saying in my post is that under some conditions there are some individuals who would benefit by not saving their respective bullies.
Certainly it is a good idea for a society to try and make decisions from impartial courts or government appointed judges, but those decisions will undoubtedly disagree with the best interests of the parties involved. The question isn't how should society deal with bullies, but how should you, as an individual, deal with them.
TIK you might find this site interesting.
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im willing to bet lots of dollars that kd wasnt actually using nolan's batman to prove any points at all but just to go 'hey here is this funny anecdotally related pop culture reference!' after all this is the off-topic forum so people should probably hop off his ass lol
It would depend on what they did. If they weren't too bad, (name calling, putting down, etc.) I'd probably save them. Then there's the "Jeremy Ford", or the guy who is an absolute d***. (Jeremy humiliated me in 3rd grade, CHOKED a bus driver in 4th, moved for a while, returned in 6th grade, and made 6th grade hell, culminating with him calling me a b**** and after stomping on his foot, he had the nerve to wrap those [NSFW] he calls hands around my neck, albeit for a brief moment, yet he left red marks.) Now normally, I'm not at all racist, I actually have black friends. But I wouldn't save the [NSFW] if he was going to get crucified. He never gave a scrap about my life, why should I give one about his?! I've been picked on by many different people, but J.F takes the cake.
i'm not trying to be snarky here but if you harbor so much resentment toward this kid that you need to rant about him on the internet years later like this virtually unprompted (i assume it's been years because COPPA, if not, don't tell me), you probably should seek counseling.
I wasn't trying to rant, I was just sharing my experience with bullying... it's one of the reasons I AM in counseling! I'm sorry, I know you weren't trying to snark, but that was kinda rude.
Good to hear that you're getting help with your problem, then! it wasnt snark that made me say that, it was genuine concern for your wellbeing, since one of my major regrets was holding off on seeking counseling for about five years of being bullied and i dont want other people to go through that shit