-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Serious Would you save your bully?
- Thread starter Death Phenomeno
- Start date
Considering the direction this thread has gone, I feel like I should speak some more.
I don't claim to understand why bullied kids would commit suicide. I have absolutely no experience with this matter, no-one I know has killed themselves. But I did want to talk about my experience with bullying. Like a lot of people on this thread, I was bullied relentlessly in primary school and early high school. I moved to a different primary school for Years 5 & 6. I thought the new environment would be kinder to me, but I ended up gaining a reputation of being an easy target and now YOUNGER kids were picking on me. So I had to find a way to cope. I decided to take the violence route. After all, if I became a badass that could fuck shit up, no-one would mess with me. Maybe that option worked out for some people, but it didn't work for me. I didn't bother learning martial arts or even improving my physical form. I just went in fists flying. Needless to say, people still messed with me. It frustrated me, and I ended up being a really aggressive, emotionally unstable kid. I wasn't completely alone though. I had other schoolmates that told me I was going about my bully problems the wrong way, and I should grow up. This advice just made me furious, and I ended up beating them up over it. It wasn't until I became a much calmer person a few years later that I realised something. I was abusing innocent kids that did absolutely nothing harmful to me. I wasn't just a victim of bullies. I WAS a bully.
I wanted to bring this up because there seems to be a trend in this thread cropping up where people are saying that bullies deserve to die because they are monsters that drive emotionally unstable kids to suicide. There probably are bullies who are pricks just for the sake of being pricks, but how do you know that jerk that tripped you over isn't a troubled person? Does he really deserve death? WaterBomb brought up the point that committing suicide over a bully is bad because it would had a profound effect on your friends and family. It works the other way around to. The bully might have his own friends that appreciate his company and/or a family that loves him. Would you deprive these people of this person? I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just giving out some food for thought.
I don't claim to understand why bullied kids would commit suicide. I have absolutely no experience with this matter, no-one I know has killed themselves. But I did want to talk about my experience with bullying. Like a lot of people on this thread, I was bullied relentlessly in primary school and early high school. I moved to a different primary school for Years 5 & 6. I thought the new environment would be kinder to me, but I ended up gaining a reputation of being an easy target and now YOUNGER kids were picking on me. So I had to find a way to cope. I decided to take the violence route. After all, if I became a badass that could fuck shit up, no-one would mess with me. Maybe that option worked out for some people, but it didn't work for me. I didn't bother learning martial arts or even improving my physical form. I just went in fists flying. Needless to say, people still messed with me. It frustrated me, and I ended up being a really aggressive, emotionally unstable kid. I wasn't completely alone though. I had other schoolmates that told me I was going about my bully problems the wrong way, and I should grow up. This advice just made me furious, and I ended up beating them up over it. It wasn't until I became a much calmer person a few years later that I realised something. I was abusing innocent kids that did absolutely nothing harmful to me. I wasn't just a victim of bullies. I WAS a bully.
I wanted to bring this up because there seems to be a trend in this thread cropping up where people are saying that bullies deserve to die because they are monsters that drive emotionally unstable kids to suicide. There probably are bullies who are pricks just for the sake of being pricks, but how do you know that jerk that tripped you over isn't a troubled person? Does he really deserve death? WaterBomb brought up the point that committing suicide over a bully is bad because it would had a profound effect on your friends and family. It works the other way around to. The bully might have his own friends that appreciate his company and/or a family that loves him. Would you deprive these people of this person? I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just giving out some food for thought.
I was about to post a tl;dr just like I almost did with my last post and realized it wasn't worth it. We all know the consequences of death, whether we choose to address them in a situation such as one outlined in the OP or not. It's in such a moment that we're forced to weigh the benefits vs. the consequences. Is the feeling of justice to see someone who wanted you to die and made you want to die worth the feeling of guilt and grief that might accompany it later on? Probably not. But in that moment, it probably feels like it. You can say "who the fuck are you to judge the value of another person's life?" but I'd venture to extend that same question to the person who I would consider leaving to die.
I'm not deciding who lives and who dies, nature is. I'm merely refusing to intervene in the course of it because I loathe the person. It would be nice if bullying were a crime, or if people were simply properly punished for it. Maybe then I wouldn't feel the need to have no empathy for them for their own comeuppance. But it's not, and they aren't, so that revulsion gets to fester in everyone whom it happens towards. I'm of the mind that the only things that should get death penalties are murder and rape. But we aren't talking about justice systems here and that's a locked topic elsewhere. We're talking about nature, about someone who has fallen into water and can't swim back to shore. If I wasn't there, they'd still die wouldn't they?
Reaching out and then pulling away would be the ultimate form of "Fuck you." to someone who has done you wrong so I can see the appeal.
And of course I'd save someone who had never bullied me, as I hold no vendetta against them, but this topic isn't about them now is it? My point is, you do me or people I care about wrong, then don't expect me to save your sorry ass.
You're probably going to ask if I'd save them if they apologized next, so I'll catch it here. It honestly depends on the level of the apology and how cruel the individual was. I probably wouldn't believe them though, most are the type to go, "Hah, you mean those things I did? Was just kids stuff." and only do it for themselves to get something or 'redeem' themselves in their own eyes instead of doing it to properly repair the damage they had done to an individual. Course, there are always exceptions. But I'm talking majority.
that's a flawed argument. nature decides that this person should die, and you have the opportunity to intervene. factoring in all the variables for these hypothetical situations many users have proposed in an attempt to add some realism (presumably) is getting away from the point of the question.
if it is within your power to save a life of a bully, ignoring the circumstance and required effort, would you? the best analogous situation would be if you were offered a button and told that the button prevented this bully from death. i think the op was fairly clear that the point of debate would be how much the bully did for you not to save him, not the circumstances that revolve around his saving.
i personally believe that people don't have the right to decide whether another should die unless they prove to be unquestionably both irrational and harmful. believing you have the right to enact personal and terminal judgement onto an individual based on what they have done to you and you alone is never justifiable to me. in the most extreme case the bully would kill you or force you to endure an unfathomably negative experience, even then i could not personally justify the taking of his life, even though it makes no sense to allow him to kill me. allowing someone to die, when there would no effort involved in saving them, is effectively the same as killing a person - which i could not personally bring myself to do.
if it is within your power to save a life of a bully, ignoring the circumstance and required effort, would you? the best analogous situation would be if you were offered a button and told that the button prevented this bully from death. i think the op was fairly clear that the point of debate would be how much the bully did for you not to save him, not the circumstances that revolve around his saving.
i personally believe that people don't have the right to decide whether another should die unless they prove to be unquestionably both irrational and harmful. believing you have the right to enact personal and terminal judgement onto an individual based on what they have done to you and you alone is never justifiable to me. in the most extreme case the bully would kill you or force you to endure an unfathomably negative experience, even then i could not personally justify the taking of his life, even though it makes no sense to allow him to kill me. allowing someone to die, when there would no effort involved in saving them, is effectively the same as killing a person - which i could not personally bring myself to do.
unfortunately, probably. anyone who bullied me in school has either shaped up into a proper adult or they still suck, so i'm indifferent. the only person i would cringe at rescuing is my older babysitter i had when i was younger. she would physically and emotionally abuse all the kids she babysat, including my sister and i, and later my brother, so i'm not too fond of her.
Killing somebody is absolutely sick although I have no reservations about fighting back. I don't really know how it feels though because I haven't been bullied since I was like 11. I'm 6'3" at 15 and I keep to myself/am quiet irl so I'm not really a very good target I guess. Plus my hometown is infested with jews, so...
so many people in this thread have some sort of twisted god complex in their heads, like you get this rush of some vigilante justice being enacted by letting somebody who has done a wrong die, or you get some kind of power high from being a "decider" in such a scenario
especially when you consider that bullying is a very lax thing to do (albeit incredibly serious and needing attention by society) comparatively for things that are legally awarded death (not that i agree with that either, but it serves to put things in a perspective)
i do not wish death on any person and especially when it comes to a one on one situation where i could potentially save a life, and i hope the people who are trying to look impressive and tough are not truly so lacking in empathy as they are trying to come across
especially when you consider that bullying is a very lax thing to do (albeit incredibly serious and needing attention by society) comparatively for things that are legally awarded death (not that i agree with that either, but it serves to put things in a perspective)
i do not wish death on any person and especially when it comes to a one on one situation where i could potentially save a life, and i hope the people who are trying to look impressive and tough are not truly so lacking in empathy as they are trying to come across
I'm not trying to look "impressive" What the fuck do I gain from looking impressive about this? It's the unpopular opinion. I have empathy for some but not all, especially people who wrong me. Get off your fucking high horse.
who said i was talking to you, outlaw?
but now, i am: if you really think caring for other people enough that you dont want them to die just because they wronged you is being on a "high horse", then you should give serious consideration to growing up and maturing
but now, i am: if you really think caring for other people enough that you dont want them to die just because they wronged you is being on a "high horse", then you should give serious consideration to growing up and maturing
It's easy to infer you were talking about anyone who said "No."
I'm not saying your high horse is saving people, I'm saying its bitching about people who would just stand aside and let nature run its course. You can save your bullies all you want, I'm not gonna judge ya for it like you seem so ready to do to those who don't align with your views, so don't judge me for not saving them.
did you get fairy god parents?
yes, i am judging you for saying you would let somebody who wronged you in a relatively minor way die when you could prevent it
(nature's course is a load of horse shit in a situation such as this, please don't pretend that humans are subject to the same level of interaction with the forces of nature as other creatures, im sure you know that you are grasping very hard at best with this point)
(nature's course is a load of horse shit in a situation such as this, please don't pretend that humans are subject to the same level of interaction with the forces of nature as other creatures, im sure you know that you are grasping very hard at best with this point)
And I'm not judging you at all.(Except now with my next sentence.) Maybe you should mature and grow up and not think you're some high and mighty end all, be all authority on morality.
And how is this not? It's about someone drowning. No one is holding heads under water, it's someone failing to swim. You're free to throw non-nature related situations at me, my answer would still be the same. I'm choosing to not intervene.
i will end this conversation by saying i hope nobody ever needs any sort of serious help with only you around (assuming you deem them unfit to be helped)
these scenarios are dumb anyway because obviously like im sure people said but icba to read before this last page, you dunno how youd actually react unless you were in that scenario
however, i think the idea that "if you dont save them you're a monster trying to look tough on the internet" is pretty silly, bullying affects everyone differently so trying to speak for everyone is silly. i certainly "FELT" at the time it happened i would have let the bullies who made me depressed through a lot of high school die if i could but looking back on it at 19, ~2.5 years removed from it basically, i don't really see why i'd let that rest on my conscience because in the grand scheme of my life, they were unimportant. but heres the thing some people probably in retrospect could blame that bullying for ruining parts of their life, or theyre even in high school right now dealing with it. so how can you blame someone for going with that answer.
when i watched death note the first time i totally agreed with light based on my depression at that time and how my mood was, now id rewatch it and disagree entirely. people's emotions, opinions, and ultimately answers will constantly be changing, its just how we're designed as humans, all of us different with different forms of thought and reasoning.
however, i think the idea that "if you dont save them you're a monster trying to look tough on the internet" is pretty silly, bullying affects everyone differently so trying to speak for everyone is silly. i certainly "FELT" at the time it happened i would have let the bullies who made me depressed through a lot of high school die if i could but looking back on it at 19, ~2.5 years removed from it basically, i don't really see why i'd let that rest on my conscience because in the grand scheme of my life, they were unimportant. but heres the thing some people probably in retrospect could blame that bullying for ruining parts of their life, or theyre even in high school right now dealing with it. so how can you blame someone for going with that answer.
when i watched death note the first time i totally agreed with light based on my depression at that time and how my mood was, now id rewatch it and disagree entirely. people's emotions, opinions, and ultimately answers will constantly be changing, its just how we're designed as humans, all of us different with different forms of thought and reasoning.
I agree with kd24 to the extent that we should really be attacking opinions, not the holders of opinions. I think that by calling somebody terrible for saying they wouldn't save the bully, that actually undermines the whole point (imo) of wanting to save the bully to begin with. Different people are in different states of being, and sometimes we'll have exceedingly selfish thoughts, but our response to exceedingly selfish thoughts is to address the thought, not judge the person thinking them.
The stuff about "nature taking its course" is complete nonsense. You're part of nature, so if you're looking to blame nature then the present decisions you make are still your responsibility. It's just a word game and that's what people are finding exceedingly selfish here.
Some people have pointed out that many of us might not actually do what we say we would. That's a distinct possibility. The situation we're talking about is vague and artificial, and it's impossible for us to know what kinds of things we'll have to consider in the moment. However, I still think that it's good to talk about these things and come up with useful moral heuristics in order to help our snap judgments if the situation actually does come up. Not everybody's in this for warm fuzzies.
As for WaterBomb said, well, I think we can all agree that there were some oversimplifications in there. People generally should be able to by themselves what they can do by themselves, but what that is is hard to determine. As has been pointed out, "solutions" that kids come up with to bullying run the gamut from assertiveness to aggression to suicide. Independence is great, but it's kind of a dick move to just let someone cope with something in a wrong way. I also suspect that the increases in noted bullying cases is largely due to population growth and greater exposure. Is suicide "cowardly"? That's the wrong question to ask. Does it matter? Not really.
The stuff about "nature taking its course" is complete nonsense. You're part of nature, so if you're looking to blame nature then the present decisions you make are still your responsibility. It's just a word game and that's what people are finding exceedingly selfish here.
Some people have pointed out that many of us might not actually do what we say we would. That's a distinct possibility. The situation we're talking about is vague and artificial, and it's impossible for us to know what kinds of things we'll have to consider in the moment. However, I still think that it's good to talk about these things and come up with useful moral heuristics in order to help our snap judgments if the situation actually does come up. Not everybody's in this for warm fuzzies.
As for WaterBomb said, well, I think we can all agree that there were some oversimplifications in there. People generally should be able to by themselves what they can do by themselves, but what that is is hard to determine. As has been pointed out, "solutions" that kids come up with to bullying run the gamut from assertiveness to aggression to suicide. Independence is great, but it's kind of a dick move to just let someone cope with something in a wrong way. I also suspect that the increases in noted bullying cases is largely due to population growth and greater exposure. Is suicide "cowardly"? That's the wrong question to ask. Does it matter? Not really.
