Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and Scizor are all stellar walls by virtue of typing, even if they have 4x weaknesses.
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XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
Heatran has...
A. Access to Stealth Rock
B. A much, MUCH better defensive typing that gives him 8 resistances and 2 immunities thanks to Flash Fire (Which, by the way, Arcanine can't run due to it's need for Intimidate)
C. The fact that it's not weak to Stealth Rock, meaning it is worn down much slower than Arcanine.
D. Even though Heatran doesn't have a recovery move, the fact that Arcanine is weak to Stealth Rock, fewer resistances/no immunities, AND it's Recovery move is hindered by Hippodon, Tyranitar, and Politoed just existing on the opponent's side, Arcanine actually has a lot less survivability than Heatran and, as such require much more support.
E. As other people have pointed out, Arcanine just doesn't wall enough to warrant an analysis.
Overall Arcanine just isn't good enough to warrant an analysis, like many people have pointed out. Sorry :(
I have to go to the movies soon, but I can battle tomorrow.
One thing to note with the first two you named is that they have reliable recovery. Ferrothorn does not, but Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, Spikes, Stealth Rocks, and the Iron Barbs ability, which can severely hurt physical attackers while Leech Seed is a very good way to regain health.
Gliscor has Poison Heal and SubProtect, Scizor has Roost, and Ferrothorn gets Leech Seed. I'm trying to say that walls aren't simply walls because they don't have a 4x weakness; all of the walls mentioned have 4x weaknesses, but they still get the job done because of their amazing utility and typing.
Ferrothorn and Scizor can sponge literally any non-Fire attack thanks to amazing defenses on both sides; Ferrothorn can set up hazards and paralyze foes, while Scizor can remove hazards with Defog, become a great revenge killer with BP, use Knock Off, and provide momentum with U-turn. Gliscor walls very relevant threats like Excadrill, Terrakion, and Lucario lacking Ice Punch, while also being able to stall out any non-Poison- or Steel-type, provide Knock Off utility, and set up SR. Heatran is effectively immune to Fire and Poison, sets up SR, forces a lot of things out and is also versatile, being able to use Choice Scarf and Specs sets. Arcanine fails as an offensive Fire-type in OU, because things like Victini, Darmanitan, and both M-Charizards exist, but it still struggles as a wall. Sure it gets Intimidate and WoW to tackle physical attacks, but it can't do much against a special attacker, its pure Fire-typing gives it very common weaknesses, Toxic cripples it, and it is affected by every single entry hazard. Arcanine isn't a bad wall by any means, but its role is performed better by a lot of other things.
Ferrothorn and Scizor can sponge literally any non-Fire attack thanks to amazing defenses on both sides; Ferrothorn can set up hazards and paralyze foes, while Scizor can remove hazards with Defog, become a great revenge killer with BP, use Knock Off, and provide momentum with U-turn. Gliscor walls very relevant threats like Excadrill, Terrakion, and Lucario lacking Ice Punch, while also being able to stall out any non-Poison- or Steel-type, provide Knock Off utility, and set up SR. Heatran is effectively immune to Fire and Poison, sets up SR, forces a lot of things out and is also versatile, being able to use Choice Scarf and Specs sets. Arcanine fails as an offensive Fire-type in OU, because things like Victini, Darmanitan, and both M-Charizards exist, but it still struggles as a wall. Sure it gets Intimidate and WoW to tackle physical attacks, but it can't do much against a special attacker, its pure Fire-typing gives it very common weaknesses, Toxic cripples it, and it is affected by every single entry hazard. Arcanine isn't a bad wall by any means, but its role is performed better by a lot of other things.
Okay, now I know I might regret this, but we need this. Can someone show some calculations with how Heatran is better defensively? I think this is the best way to determine its effectiveness vs Arcanine's effectiveness in OU. Also, just a quick note, I'm sure it can be viable, but I've never heard of a Choice Specs or Choice Scarf Heatran.
As much as I love Arcanine, he just has no place in this metagame. Certainly he can make for a neat defensive Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp and Intimidate, but what exactly does he think he can stop right now? Next to nothing save Mega Mawile I guess, but I wouldn't use Arcanine of all Pokemon to stop it regardless. He has bad weaknesses to a lot of common attacking types, a crippling Stealth Rock weakness that needs to be taken care of at all times, and a mediocre recovery move due to the continued prevalence of sand and even rain.
I used him in early XY on a stall team because he was a cool answer to Genesect, but the issue is that Arcanine requires so much support to fill in such a small niche. I often found him simply getting overwhelmed by the sheer damage of some of these top threats. Also, Intimidate, despite being an excellent defensive ability, prevents Arcanine from checking one of the scariest physical sweepers in the game: Bisharp. Every other top-tier threat such as Mega Charizard-X, Garchomp, and Mega Pinsir can blast through Arcanine with relative ease (you really can't switch into these guys). In the current state of the metagame, there honestly are better physical walls to choose from that can offer a wider range of utility and support than Arcanine can ever fulfill.
Due to similar opinions by other users, Arcanine is not getting an analysis.
I used him in early XY on a stall team because he was a cool answer to Genesect, but the issue is that Arcanine requires so much support to fill in such a small niche. I often found him simply getting overwhelmed by the sheer damage of some of these top threats. Also, Intimidate, despite being an excellent defensive ability, prevents Arcanine from checking one of the scariest physical sweepers in the game: Bisharp. Every other top-tier threat such as Mega Charizard-X, Garchomp, and Mega Pinsir can blast through Arcanine with relative ease (you really can't switch into these guys). In the current state of the metagame, there honestly are better physical walls to choose from that can offer a wider range of utility and support than Arcanine can ever fulfill.
Due to similar opinions by other users, Arcanine is not getting an analysis.
Seeing these replays would be helpful for understanding Arcanine's function in real battles, so please post them if you can. :)
I actually posted a variety of battle replays in my original Arcanine post.
Well, I tried my best. Thank you for giving me this chance anyway.
I talked about this before but deleted the post. Anyway, I'll post it again.
Alomomola should get an analysis. Its a really underrated mon. Great on stall teams and balanced teams as a wish passer. Really bulky and regenerator makes it extremely difficult to take down. Its a pretty safe switch in to both zards, and it fits in nicely in various stall cores. It can also run a physically defensive set using mirror coat as a lure to hit special attackers.
This team, posted by Branflakes325, had great success and pretty much proves my point.
Alomomola should get an analysis. Its a really underrated mon. Great on stall teams and balanced teams as a wish passer. Really bulky and regenerator makes it extremely difficult to take down. Its a pretty safe switch in to both zards, and it fits in nicely in various stall cores. It can also run a physically defensive set using mirror coat as a lure to hit special attackers.
This team, posted by Branflakes325, had great success and pretty much proves my point.
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I actually totally agree with you. But you should post more stuff to get your suggestion looked at.
EDIT: Sorry, it's getting rejected. :'(
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252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 348-410 (65.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm sorry, but that isn't really a safe switch in.
You switch in on a fire blast, get lefties recovery, protect, get more, and then take a solar beam. It isn't fool proof, but Char-Y can be baited into fire moves very easily.
Very true, but just being able to switch in safely isn't enough. Alomomola does pretty much what Slowbro and Slowking do, except they both have a much greater offensive presence than Alomomola. Alomomola can pass wishes, but Blissey does that a lot better in my opinion. Blissey has much more HP and special bulk than Alomomola and has a wider range of support move. All I think Alomomola does is toxic stall and pass wishes, but OU already has Blissey. Is there anything Alomomola does that Blisset can't? The only possible advantage Alomomola has over Blissey is Regenerator, but Alomomola is destroyed by Toxic due to the lack of a supportive move that can fix that while Blissey has Natural Cure. Sorry, but I think our friend Alomomola is out-classed.
You know what else walls Mega Mawile? Bulky Talonflame. Actually bulky Talonflame can wall a lot of things that Arcanine does, while a faster Will-O-Wisp and priority Roost does not hurt Talonflame's cause either. Arcanine needs STAB and Extremespeed to check threats, but bulky Talon does that in one go with BRAVE BURD. I see little to no reason to consider Arcanine over any other Fire-type in the tier. It's not so much that it is bad, just really outclassed; Azelf is a good comparison of a decent but heavily outclassed Pokemon.
-1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 156-186 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 252-296 (70 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 246-291 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I wouldn't say Talonflame is better at walling things than Arcanine... Plus, a double weakness to Rock isn't ideal for a wall at all. The only fire type in OU I see that can out-class Arcanine in walling is Heatran, and for reasons already mentioned above. Talonflame is really strong, but without attack investment, it does surprisingly little.
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 236-278 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Saying Talonflame only needs Brave Bird to check threats is, well, hard to do if you're using it to wall Mega Mawile. Arcanine seems far superior in walling compared to Talonflame, but that's just how I see it.
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 252-296 (70 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 246-291 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I wouldn't say Talonflame is better at walling things than Arcanine... Plus, a double weakness to Rock isn't ideal for a wall at all. The only fire type in OU I see that can out-class Arcanine in walling is Heatran, and for reasons already mentioned above. Talonflame is really strong, but without attack investment, it does surprisingly little.
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 236-278 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Saying Talonflame only needs Brave Bird to check threats is, well, hard to do if you're using it to wall Mega Mawile. Arcanine seems far superior in walling compared to Talonflame, but that's just how I see it.
I mean, once you burn Mega Mawile, you can basically just sit back and relax with Talonflame OR Arcanine anyways :/
Also note that BU+wisp Talonflame sets actually have some nice offensive potential, arc just sits there and spams weak flare blitzes/flamethrowers
Unless it resists or is something like Gliscor, Flare Blitz does a nice amount of damage. Now Bulk Up Talonflame isn't exactly a wall, but it's a great offensive set. I understand that Arcanine is out-classed as a physical attacker by Entei, so I'm not even suggesting that, but saying Talonflame is a better wall is definitely questionable, and I don't think I'm alone in that department.
I don't know, I kind of think you are somewhat alone in that department. Talonflame has access to a faster Will-O-Wisp, a neat defensive typing, priority Roost that doesn't have drawbacks like Morning Sun, better priority, and much larger surprise factor. I mean, I'm not saying it's the greatest defensive Fire-type in the world, but it definitely does give Arcanine some still competition.
Anyways I really don't understand why we're discussing Arcanine anymore (Not just talking to you HypnoEmpire), it's already been rejected so lets just let it go.
HypnoEmpire You are correct, Bulk Up Talon isn't meant to be a full-time wall, but that doesn't mean it cannot stop the same things Arcanine does, and said Talon is not even a physically defensive variant (check the analysis, which has SpD Bulk Up Talonflame). Using Mega Gyarados and Mega Mawile are really poor examples for comparing the two; Mega Gyara outspeeds Arcanine with no investment and may Taunt / Sub on it, and beats both with Dragon Dance, while Mega Mawile loses to both due to Will-O-Wisp, as well as Bulk Up in Talonflame's case. If you're going to compare Pokemon, at least mention matchups where one of them wins and the other doesn't instead of both of them having the same matchups.
Point is, there isn't a lot of point for Arcanine, a physically defensive Fire-type which relies on its stats, right now. Defensive Fire-types nowadays are sought for their resistances, not their sheer bulk (though that is a bonus). Arcanine does not resist anything new that the current defensively inclined Fire-types (Heatran, bulky XZard, and Talonflame) do not already handle, and the most powerful physical attacker which Arcanine resists, Mega Charizard X, cannot be easily dealt with by Arcanine at all, so there goes its one potentially useful niche. Physically defensive Intimidate Arcanine doesn't even wall Mega Charizard Y either since Fire Blast 2HKOes on the switch (Talon avoids this with priority Roost), and Bisharp does a shitton on the switch with Knock Off by virtue of Defiant (bulky XZard laughs at Knock Off), so once more its viability as an effective defensive Fire-type is put into question, since the other defensive Fire-types at least check one of the threats that Fire-types should check.
There is also no doubt that Arcanine faces serious competition as an offensive Fire-type, even from the likes of lower tier Fire-types such as Darmanitan, Entei, and Victini. Fuck, even Emboar gives Arcanine competition, since it has Fighting STAB, greater coverage, and Sucker Punch to at least hits Lati@s.
Point is, there isn't a lot of point for Arcanine, a physically defensive Fire-type which relies on its stats, right now. Defensive Fire-types nowadays are sought for their resistances, not their sheer bulk (though that is a bonus). Arcanine does not resist anything new that the current defensively inclined Fire-types (Heatran, bulky XZard, and Talonflame) do not already handle, and the most powerful physical attacker which Arcanine resists, Mega Charizard X, cannot be easily dealt with by Arcanine at all, so there goes its one potentially useful niche. Physically defensive Intimidate Arcanine doesn't even wall Mega Charizard Y either since Fire Blast 2HKOes on the switch (Talon avoids this with priority Roost), and Bisharp does a shitton on the switch with Knock Off by virtue of Defiant (bulky XZard laughs at Knock Off), so once more its viability as an effective defensive Fire-type is put into question, since the other defensive Fire-types at least check one of the threats that Fire-types should check.
There is also no doubt that Arcanine faces serious competition as an offensive Fire-type, even from the likes of lower tier Fire-types such as Darmanitan, Entei, and Victini. Fuck, even Emboar gives Arcanine competition, since it has Fighting STAB, greater coverage, and Sucker Punch to at least hits Lati@s.
Okay I'll take a look. Thanks!
By the way, in the very early stages of OU I used a physically defensive Arcanine on a Sand Stall team. While Arcanine did an excellent job, I now realize with Blissey on the team that Heatran would have been better.
Garchomp is now complete.
GatoDelFuego
darkie (not 100% sure if you wanted me to tag you or not for you to prepare for the new dex). sorry if not
Code:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3500908/