Right. I think it was Jukain who said compilation lists are worthless. Oh well, we don't really have much to talk about now.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Yep, just bide your time and twiddle your thumbs. Conversation will come soon again.
Echoing the two above me, there is no point to consensus posts. They aren't even looked at by the people involved with making these changes. There's no productive discussion created with them, either, and the creator tends to be at least somewhat biased, skewing the posts.
Also, only discuss things that are in A/A-, or whatever's next. The goal is to focus the discussion -- don't circumvent that. Also, ranks of non-A/A- Pokemon will not be updated at this time, so you're arguing for nothing.
Also, only discuss things that are in A/A-, or whatever's next. The goal is to focus the discussion -- don't circumvent that. Also, ranks of non-A/A- Pokemon will not be updated at this time, so you're arguing for nothing.
Jukain and alexwolf literally just said we are discussing A and A- PKMN and now we are talking about Kyurem-B which is A+ Rank. facepalm
Please keep the discussion relevent. I am no moderator, but seriously, you need to read the previous posts.
Also, I'd like to see Keldeo drop down to A- Rank. Honestly Keldeo is really good, but it has been suffering too much because lots of new threats of risen that wall its STAB like Mega Venusaur and there are new threats that check it like Talonflame. It also faces severe competition with Manaphy and Greninja this generation too.
I would be very disappointed if Keldeo dropped to A- rank. people seem to be missing out on the reality of what has happened to and for Keldeo this generation, and I think the lack of rain is being blown a bit out of proportion.
If we look at Keldeo last gen, it was a very capable and powerful Pokemon that thrived on wearing down the common water resists and sweeping late-game, usually with its Scarf set. Pursuit Pokemon such as Tyranitar for Sand teams and Scizor for rain were good pairs for trapping Lati@s, Celebi, and Jellicent to allow Keldeo to clean up a team once these Pokemon were weakened/eliminated.
In XY, Keldeo got three major nerfs: rain lasting only five turns, Hidden Power being lowered to 60 Base Power, and Flying priority. However, I believe that the metagame has shifted in a way that makes Keldeo just as good as it was last generation, only in a different way. Keldeo is no longer the late-game cleaner it was in BW; instead, Keldeo should be seen more as a powerful wallbreaker with Specs or setup sweeper with Calm Mind. Scarf is almost nowhere to be seen. And that's because Scarf isn't a great item right now, which is actually good for Keldeo! Now it can run its Specs set without having to worry about being outsped next turn by a Scarf Thundurus-T. It has the freedom to spam Specs Scalds, which not only hurt, but also have the ability to burn the opponent. Furthermore, Keldeo's more common checks from BW are by and large gone from the metagame with the exception of Lati@s. While it did gain a few in Talonflame, Pinsir, and Azumarill, these are more offensive checks, and none can 100% switch into Keldeo the way that Celebi or Jellicent could (Mega Venusaur can, but it is very prepared for in this meta and even it doesn't like being burned by Scald!). While this does mean it's easier to revenge kill Keldeo, it also makes Keldeo's moves much more spammable, as not every team carries a dedicated Water resist (Rotom-W is mostly physical and takes a crap ton from Specs Hydro or Secret Sword). Not to mention, in a generation where Dark moves are a lot better, and Bisharp is one of the best Pokemon on HO, Keldeo being a great check to it in addition to everything else makes it a great choice for offensive teams.
Another positive for Keldeo this gen was the addition of Aegislash and Landorus coming down from ubers. Aegislash is a fantastic Pursuit user, and as we all know, Keldeo and Landorus + Pursuit user is a very dangerous combination. Aegislash also checks some of the Pokemon that beat Keldeo, such as Mega Venusaur, Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, etc. (please note that I said CHECKS, not counters).
I feel that Keldeo more than deserves its place in A rank.
If we look at Keldeo last gen, it was a very capable and powerful Pokemon that thrived on wearing down the common water resists and sweeping late-game, usually with its Scarf set. Pursuit Pokemon such as Tyranitar for Sand teams and Scizor for rain were good pairs for trapping Lati@s, Celebi, and Jellicent to allow Keldeo to clean up a team once these Pokemon were weakened/eliminated.
In XY, Keldeo got three major nerfs: rain lasting only five turns, Hidden Power being lowered to 60 Base Power, and Flying priority. However, I believe that the metagame has shifted in a way that makes Keldeo just as good as it was last generation, only in a different way. Keldeo is no longer the late-game cleaner it was in BW; instead, Keldeo should be seen more as a powerful wallbreaker with Specs or setup sweeper with Calm Mind. Scarf is almost nowhere to be seen. And that's because Scarf isn't a great item right now, which is actually good for Keldeo! Now it can run its Specs set without having to worry about being outsped next turn by a Scarf Thundurus-T. It has the freedom to spam Specs Scalds, which not only hurt, but also have the ability to burn the opponent. Furthermore, Keldeo's more common checks from BW are by and large gone from the metagame with the exception of Lati@s. While it did gain a few in Talonflame, Pinsir, and Azumarill, these are more offensive checks, and none can 100% switch into Keldeo the way that Celebi or Jellicent could (Mega Venusaur can, but it is very prepared for in this meta and even it doesn't like being burned by Scald!). While this does mean it's easier to revenge kill Keldeo, it also makes Keldeo's moves much more spammable, as not every team carries a dedicated Water resist (Rotom-W is mostly physical and takes a crap ton from Specs Hydro or Secret Sword). Not to mention, in a generation where Dark moves are a lot better, and Bisharp is one of the best Pokemon on HO, Keldeo being a great check to it in addition to everything else makes it a great choice for offensive teams.
Another positive for Keldeo this gen was the addition of Aegislash and Landorus coming down from ubers. Aegislash is a fantastic Pursuit user, and as we all know, Keldeo and Landorus + Pursuit user is a very dangerous combination. Aegislash also checks some of the Pokemon that beat Keldeo, such as Mega Venusaur, Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, etc. (please note that I said CHECKS, not counters).
I feel that Keldeo more than deserves its place in A rank.
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No, this thread is meant for showing how viable some pokemon are in the OU metagame by ranking them from S - D, S being the best pokemon to use in OU; D being Pokemon that need lots of support and are not worth it.
No, all Pokemon listed here are viable in the OU tier, not necessarily fully OU.
edit: ninja'd
edit: ninja'd
I agree that keldeo should drop to A-
Don't get me wrong, he still is a powerful Pokemon. But here's the thing.
In BW/B2W2 keldeo was supremely dangerous, and could wreck the majority of the tier. If any one remembers (it wasn't so long ago) keldeo was considered one of the top offensive mons and was found on almost EVERY team.
Things are not that way for keldeo at all anymore. It doesn't see a such usage, its power has been reduced, the meta game has changed to introduce Pokemon that both are unfazed by its stabs and can threaten it back.
Naturally it is a good Pokemon, warranting it an A ranking, but its inability to be a major force in the tier right now awards it, in my mind an A- ranking. It's just not the threat it once was, and worse, it's not all that threatening.
Don't get me wrong, he still is a powerful Pokemon. But here's the thing.
In BW/B2W2 keldeo was supremely dangerous, and could wreck the majority of the tier. If any one remembers (it wasn't so long ago) keldeo was considered one of the top offensive mons and was found on almost EVERY team.
Things are not that way for keldeo at all anymore. It doesn't see a such usage, its power has been reduced, the meta game has changed to introduce Pokemon that both are unfazed by its stabs and can threaten it back.
Naturally it is a good Pokemon, warranting it an A ranking, but its inability to be a major force in the tier right now awards it, in my mind an A- ranking. It's just not the threat it once was, and worse, it's not all that threatening.
Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Halcyon on Keldeo. If there's anyone reading this that thinks Keldeo isn't threatening anymore, then please stop theorymoning and actually play an upper ladder OU match and you'll see exactly why you're wrong. Keldeo doesn't need rain to be good, rain just made it absolutely ridiculous to a point where it was almost banworthy last generation. Now even without rain, Keldeo still retains a solid niche in the OU metagame as one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. Very little can take Specs Hydro Pumps, and even less Pokemon want to switch into Scald because there's always that chance they could get burned, which makes it harder and harder to put defensive pressure on Keldeo through out the match. Secret Sword still allows Keldeo to bypass through Chansey which would completely wall it otherwise, and other special tanks like Goodra. Even with Mega Venusaur running around, Specs HP Flying easily 2HKOs physically defensive variants after Stealth Rock, so check that off the list as a full proof counter to Keldeo. Also, as Halcyon said, Calm Mind is still a very underrated sweeper in todays metagame, and once things like Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Lati twins, and Thundurus are gone, it has a very easy time plowing through teams.
Halcyon thankfully didn't forget to mention how the Dark-type buff helped Keldeo immensely, because now its #1 counter, Latias, is a lot more pressured. Bisharp runs rampant in OU and threatens to not only Pursuit trap Latias but also keep it from safely Defogging hazards away. Aegislash is also a great user of Pursuit and pairs well with Keldeo, seeing as they both form a terrifying wallbreaking core. And last but not least, Tyranitar is still one of the best Dark-types in OU that's able to Pursuit trap basically every Psychic-type in the tier. This makes it incredibly easy for Keldeo to come in a spam its STAB moves afterwards, and thankfully all of these Pokemon are very easy to fit onto most teams. Keldeo in general is an incredible boon for offense, because it is able to put immense offensive pressure on most team archetypes so that something else like Landorus, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, or Mega Tyranitar can sweep afterwards.
But yeah, I'm not seeing how this is A- material at all. It's almost a staple on any good (keyword here) offensive team, and its wallbreaking + sweeping potential is unreal. It stays in A Rank. I will be severely disappointed if it drops, because so far the arguments for it dropping have been awful.
Also, please don't use usage as an argument. I'm pretty sure its been explained a million times why it's never a good argument. Again, Landorus is BL and Thundurus was just above the cutoff last month, which should tell you something right there. Just because Keldeo isn't OU, doesn't mean it isn't good in OU.
Halcyon thankfully didn't forget to mention how the Dark-type buff helped Keldeo immensely, because now its #1 counter, Latias, is a lot more pressured. Bisharp runs rampant in OU and threatens to not only Pursuit trap Latias but also keep it from safely Defogging hazards away. Aegislash is also a great user of Pursuit and pairs well with Keldeo, seeing as they both form a terrifying wallbreaking core. And last but not least, Tyranitar is still one of the best Dark-types in OU that's able to Pursuit trap basically every Psychic-type in the tier. This makes it incredibly easy for Keldeo to come in a spam its STAB moves afterwards, and thankfully all of these Pokemon are very easy to fit onto most teams. Keldeo in general is an incredible boon for offense, because it is able to put immense offensive pressure on most team archetypes so that something else like Landorus, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, or Mega Tyranitar can sweep afterwards.
But yeah, I'm not seeing how this is A- material at all. It's almost a staple on any good (keyword here) offensive team, and its wallbreaking + sweeping potential is unreal. It stays in A Rank. I will be severely disappointed if it drops, because so far the arguments for it dropping have been awful.
Also, please don't use usage as an argument. I'm pretty sure its been explained a million times why it's never a good argument. Again, Landorus is BL and Thundurus was just above the cutoff last month, which should tell you something right there. Just because Keldeo isn't OU, doesn't mean it isn't good in OU.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Keldeo is basically the best specs user in a tier that has a physically defensive bias. It's one of those "spam best mvoe something dies" pokes. Oh, and if it has a check (sup venu), then you just scald it and it'll probably get burned making it 10 times esier to break down. Keldeo is self sufficient offensively, nearly unrivaled as a specs user in OU (latios is cool too), and has great defensive merits being able to switch in top tier threads like Bisharp, and checking mega mawile thanks to that dark resist!
Really, Keldeo has not a single reason to drop, it's a great pokemon
Really, Keldeo has not a single reason to drop, it's a great pokemon
The notion that Keldeo should drop is a strange one to me. It faces some new challenges and such from the new Gen, but it still functions like it used to. Fact is, MVenu walls it. Guess what? Mvenu walls so many threats, simply saying that it walls Keldeo does not mean it should drop, when it carries one of the most spammable choiced move in the game, SpecsPump. Talonflame RK's it. Talonflames RK's so many things in this meta. The thing has a great Speed-Tier, killer offenses, high BP Moves, great dual Stabs, and just enough coverage to swing by. There are 2 main Pokemon that give it trouble, Talonflame stops a sweep, an Mvena normally walls it, etc, but at the end of the day, Keldeo didn't change all that much. It is less useful then it was now than in Gen 5, but it still has all it needs to be successful this Gen, and everything it needs to stay in A. Whatever challenges it faces, Keldeo still has a team that can help back it up.
Note: In Pokemon Online, Keldeo has returned to OU alongside Latias, Chansey and Sylveon while the species Breloom, Deoxys-S, Galvantula, Trevenant, Goodra, Smeargle and Kangaskhan are now on UU.
Which means people are using Keldeo more. It's true that rain buffed it but it doesn't mean that she's suddenly a worse pokemon. Even at this peak in gen V, Keldeo didn't get in the top 10 as far as I know.
In reality, there wasn't a power creep in gen V. Powerful special attacks are slightly nerfed, weather has severely nerfed, Fighting and Dragon types has to deal with Fairies, etc. For exmaple: in PO (maybe soon in Smogon), Chansey + Blissey gets more than 9% ranked usage (they are together).
Which means people are using Keldeo more. It's true that rain buffed it but it doesn't mean that she's suddenly a worse pokemon. Even at this peak in gen V, Keldeo didn't get in the top 10 as far as I know.
In reality, there wasn't a power creep in gen V. Powerful special attacks are slightly nerfed, weather has severely nerfed, Fighting and Dragon types has to deal with Fairies, etc. For exmaple: in PO (maybe soon in Smogon), Chansey + Blissey gets more than 9% ranked usage (they are together).
MCBarrett
i love it when you call me big hoppa
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Plus most Azumarill don't even run max HP)
Between that and Scald's chance to burn Azumarill isn't even that comfortable switching in, despite being the best Offensive switch-in to Keldeo outside of the Lati's by far. Keldeo is without a doubt an A+ threat. (previous post in link)
Move skarm up to plain A. Skarm is basically the best thing ever versus all ground types and an excellent defensive pokemon in general. With options like defog, hazards, and a powerful and useful STAB move skarm has a good matchup versus a lot of mons. Skarmory is great for common threats like landorus-t, landorus-i, garchomp, excadrill, venusaur-mega, conkeldurr (always run rocky helmet!), scizor, etc. His main issues are elctric types (thundurus-i and rotom-w) and fire types (charizard, heatran, talonflame.) Luckily these pokemon are not incredibly difficult to work around, and skarmory synergizes really well with mons that do check them.
PRO EDIT: FUCK PINSIR
PRO EDIT: FUCK PINSIR
I take back my argument in Keldeo being A- Rank. For one, I was completely focused in its flaws as being weak to Talonflame, having more counters, and useless ability + Hidden Power nerf. It should stay A just because of not itself, but the powerful cores it forms which I completely forgot about which the amazing Landorus-I / Keldeo / Tyranitar core is even better with the Dark-type nerf allowing Tyranitar to remove Steel-types like Air Balloon Heatran out of the game for Landorus-I to sweep and now can even use Aegislash as an addition Pursuit user as many teams are pressured to face two Pursuit users with opposite counters. Combine that with fact that Keldeo can use Scald early game to support its teammates to set-up and SPAM Hydro Pump late-game makes it amazing. It gained a lot more team support options this generation as well with Thundurus-I, Deoxys-S + D, and the common Bisharp terrorizing OU. The addition of Sticky Web also made its Specs set more threatening and it's still at the same level it is last generation. Keep this thing in A
lol
Clefable for A rank - I think Clefable's good typing, possession of Magic Guard, possession of super-reliable recovery, decent movepool and ability to tank hits fairly well makes it worthy of A rank, instead of A-.
Fairy typing, in conjunction with its reasonable bulk, enables it to come in on a variety of potent threats and set up (preferably with CM).
Magic Guard takes this further, allowing it to come in on status abusers, in the midst of stacked hazards, and set up.
Reliable recovery is obviously a god-send, as it means Clef's going to get worn down even slower, if at all.
Strong STAB in Moonblast with a secondary effect that helps ease pressure in some situations, combined with decent power and coverage in the form of Fire Blast / Flamethrower = able to function as both an offensive and defensive powerhouse simultaneously.
Needs team support to remove threats and set the stage for setting up. Also has somewhat average unboosted defenses and lowish speed. This stops it from even slightly being considered for A+ but with the right teammates, and in the hands of a smart player, Clefable is a massive threat.
Easily worthy of A in my opinion.
Fairy typing, in conjunction with its reasonable bulk, enables it to come in on a variety of potent threats and set up (preferably with CM).
Magic Guard takes this further, allowing it to come in on status abusers, in the midst of stacked hazards, and set up.
Reliable recovery is obviously a god-send, as it means Clef's going to get worn down even slower, if at all.
Strong STAB in Moonblast with a secondary effect that helps ease pressure in some situations, combined with decent power and coverage in the form of Fire Blast / Flamethrower = able to function as both an offensive and defensive powerhouse simultaneously.
Needs team support to remove threats and set the stage for setting up. Also has somewhat average unboosted defenses and lowish speed. This stops it from even slightly being considered for A+ but with the right teammates, and in the hands of a smart player, Clefable is a massive threat.
Easily worthy of A in my opinion.
While Clefable is really annoying and all, it is definitely not A rank. It was pushed from B+ to A-, but not A.
First of all, it is a common set-up pokemon and phazing will weaken it heavily, CM set is resisted by PURE fire- types (Fire Blast/Moonblast/Moonlight/CM)
So Heatran can just come on and Roar. Arcanine can just keep spamming an attacking move. Darmanitan can revenge kill it. And so many other things. A lot of things can check it. Basically anything that can come through 252/252+ on the physical side.
Its not set up bait if it has unaware allowing it to attack with out having to fear taking boosted attacks. Clefable can also carry shadow ball instead of fire blast making it only get walled by pyroar. Heatran can roar out most special sweepers, and even a special sweeper carring focus blast is at risk 70 percent accuracy is very shaky.
You can only nominate A- or A currenly ranked pokemon for different ranks, or nominate new pokemon for these ranks. So, if you want to nominate an A rank pokemon to go down to C, that's fine. Although, it won't realistically happen.
Alright, thanks. Anyway, I think that Clefable is probably best at A- rank. It's a tank with great abilities and set up. However, a large part about it is the fact that it's simply intimidating to go against. People often switch around too much or the like in an attempt to wear it down giving the opportunity for it to set up calm minds. It also suffers greatly from status if it has oblivious, especially paralysis. Meanwhile, it can be countered with fire types if it's the calm mind set or checked by physical set up pokemon such as Mawile and Scizor who can then beat it down faster than it can heal. Overall, it's a great pokemon but it can still be fought back against without it being guaranteed to take down a pokemon with it.
If clefable is wielding a flame orb or toxic orb it cant be staused, clefable can also run shadow ball instead of fire blast so it isnt walled by fire types. Clefable doesnt have oblivious as an ability, do you mean unaware or magic gaurd?
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