Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Flare48]

I have a few problems with this.
1. Who's going to leave Zard X in after a speed drop, anyway? Also, there's a thing called "prediction", just so you know.
2. Goodra does NOT counter or check Azumarill, as Taehl has proved.

Please check your facts or gain knowledge of the game before posting.

i already know that im just talking about my experiences in game witch alot of people dont do. also thanks for helping me prove a point things dont want to hit this thing espically sweepers like charizard x even at adamant and a dragon dance under his belt char x still cant OHKO him with flare blitz witch will force him to switch

Anyway Goodra is a good pokemon that should be ranked B+ because he has a unique ablity gooey thay tmakes physical attackers weary and sap sipper that make things like mega venusaur and spore users cautious

ive been play competitve since fire red and leaf green

 

[deepbluejeer]

Why would you hit Goodra with Flare Blitz?
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 458-540 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Goodra: 338-398 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Goodra: 504-594 (131.2 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even at max Def, Goodra isn't going to switch into Char X despite Gooey. Neutral speed Char X still outspeeds a bunch of things.

 

[Flare48]

Why would you hit Goodra with Flare Blitz?
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 458-540 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Goodra: 338-398 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Goodra: 504-594 (131.2 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even at max Def, Goodra isn't going to switch into Char X despite Gooey. Neutral speed Char X still outspeeds a bunch of things.

i know its just that when charizard get his speed down -1 he is a lot easier to handle especially when he begins his sweep. Any way i brought up char x because i wanted to use him as an example of how good gooey can actually be when used against something that could easy ko him

 

[Galaco]

I'd like to nominate Milotic for C+ it may face competition from other bulky waters but it has a combination of unique water typing, instant recovery in the move Recover, incredibly options in its movepool such as Haze, Dragon Tail, Toxic, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Scald, access to RestTalk, Mirror Coat and even Whirlpool (which can be effective at given moments), it also has an awesome Sp. Def., an okay HP stat and a solid Sp. Atk, its defense may be underwelming but that's where her ability kicks in since Marvel Scale boosts her Def. by 50% when statused, meaning it can switch in to absorb status condition, even Toxic if you're running the RestTalk set. Also, this gen Milotic got Competitive which lets her serve as switch in to Defog and can gain power if Sticky Web is already up. It can even go all offensive with competitive and Assault Vest to absorb special attacks.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I'd like to nominate Milotic for C+ it may face competition from other bulky waters but it has a combination of unique water typing, instant recovery in the move Recover, incredibly options in its movepool such as Haze, Dragon Tail, Toxic, Hydro Pump, Scald, access to RestTalk, Mirror Coat and even Whirlpool (which can be effective at given moments), it also has an awesome Sp. Def., an okay HP stat and a solid Sp. Atk, its defense may be underwelming but that's where her ability kicks in since Marvel Scale boosts her Def. by 50% when statused, meaning it can switch in to absorb status condition, even Toxic if you're running the RestTalk set. Also, this gen Milotic got Competitive which lets her serve as switch in to Defog and can gain power if Sticky Web is already up. It can even go all offensive with competitive and Assault Vest to absorb special attacks.

If Milotic were to get on this list, it'd be due to it's bulky offensive set with Competitive. It's getting an analysis ATM and is supposedly not that bad. The defensive set is utterly outclassed by Pokemon such as Vaporeon, who have access to basically every useful move Milotic has except better (Roar works through Subs while Dragon Tail doesn't, Wish can be passed to a teammate while Recover can't.) Since Vaporeon is borderline C- rank, I think we can agree that defensive Milotic is not something that will get Milotic on the list.

I think the Competitve set could give Milotic a decent niche at D or C-, as it faces serious competition from Bisharp and Thundurus as something to switch into Defog. However, Milotic does have it's niche, no matter how small, and I think the fact that it's getting an analysis means it should at least get on the list at D, if anything.

 

[DaiGuren]

i know its just that when charizard get his speed down -1 he is a lot easier to handle especially when he begins his sweep.

But ZardX can always switch out to a pivot to nullify the speed drop, therefore nullifying the momentum that was gained by sacing your Goodra.

and tbh if rocks are not on your side of the field, ZardX can easily come in and set-up again due to decent physical bulk + tons of resistances

 

[Red Cat]

I have a question about these rankings. I've noticed that this thread is also in Victory Road. Are those rankings going to have any influence on these rankings in any way, shape, or form or are they completely separate rankings?

EDIT: I've read through the thread. The reason I'm asking is because different people said different things about this subject in that thread. I'm looking for a definitive answer.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I have a question about these rankings. I've noticed that this thread is also in Victory Road. Are those rankings going to have any influence on these rankings in any way, shape, or form or are they completely separate rankings?

Alexwolf stated in the thread that any changes made in the Victory Road will be made here, as better commenters doesn't affect Pokemon Viability. I don't think the reverse is true, though.

 

[fleurdyleurse]

i already know that im just talking about my experiences in game witch alot of people dont do. also thanks for helping me prove a point things dont want to hit this thing espically sweepers like charizard x even at adamant and a dragon dance under his belt char x still cant OHKO him with flare blitz witch will force him to switch

Anyway Goodra is a good pokemon that should be ranked B+ because he has a unique ablity gooey thay tmakes physical attackers weary and sap sipper that make things like mega venusaur and spore users cautious

ive been play competitve since fire red and leaf green

Err.. If Char X DDs and then gets speed drop it still outspeeds and OHKOs with Dragon Claw.

 

[Baharoth]

I have a question about these rankings. I've noticed that this thread is also in Victory Road. Are those rankings going to have any influence on these rankings in any way, shape, or form or are they completely separate rankings?

EDIT: I've read through the thread. The reason I'm asking is because different people said different things about this subject in that thread. I'm looking for a definitive answer.

The discussion here is in fact totaly pointless as it has no relevance at all, now with that Victory Road forum even less than before. Before the Council made every decision, but there was a chance they took some of the arguments or even rankings out of this thread so it might have mattered here and there. Now with the other thread in the VR Forum this one here could as well be closed. The Council will base their decisions on the arguments made in the other topic because the people there "have more skill" and the decisions made will apply to the viability list in this thread as well, as already stated above. So the discussion in this thread is only for our personal entertainment, is has no relevance what so ever.

 

[Salemance]

The discussion here is in fact totaly pointless as it has no relevance at all, now with that Victory Road forum even less than before. Before the Council made every decision, but there was a chance they took some of the arguments or even rankings out of this thread so it might have mattered here and there. Now with the other thread in the VR Forum this one here could as well be closed. The Council will base their decisions on the arguments made in the other topic because the people there "have more skill" and the decisions made will apply to the viability list in this thread as well, as already stated above. So the discussion in this thread is only for our personal entertainment, is has no relevance what so ever.

I was beginning to think that myself too, but I was hoping they would still take some of our points into consideration even if some of us do not yet have the credentials to post there, but you may never know till told.

And Goodra countering Char X is a little ridiculous for reasons already stated, but at least it can almost survive a Dragon Claw as long as it has no prior damage.

 

[dumbguyfin]

Yeah lets not rank miltank, it could cause a snowball effect, so suddenly everything that has a niche would be c- (guys like golurk, cradily and jynx)

 

[Maestro Arena]

I don't understand why Raikou isn't even in the list. I see Raikou as a great C+ Pokemon, able to check and counter some huge threats of the metagame like Talonflame, Skarmory, Crocune, etc, while mantaining momentum with Volt Switch. It is already used in OU. I think it deserves the C+.

 

[Flare48]

Err.. If Char X DDs and then gets speed drop it still outspeeds and OHKOs with Dragon Claw.

and his speed goes down even more a charizard with -1 speed is way easier to take out then a charizard with +1

 

[Vert]

I don't understand why Raikou isn't even in the list. I see Raikou as a great C+ Pokemon, able to check and counter some huge threats of the metagame like Talonflame, Skarmory, Crocune, etc, while mantaining momentum with Volt Switch. It is already used in OU. I think it deserves the C+.

Raikou is amazing in this new metagame. It's gaining quite the amount of SPL usage just because it comes in on Thundurus-I and sets up a free Calm Mind on it or it can easily predict the next switch in and maul it because Thundurus-I is obviously going to switch out. Doesn't switch out? You'll get another Calm Mind which will probably be GG. Its speed lets it revenge kill things like Latios with Shadow Ball or it can set up a CM on a -2 Lati@s. The fact that all of the things that outpace Raikou are Specially Biased makes Calm Mind a lethal weapon. Greninja? Watch it fail to break past +1. Alakazam? Psyshock doesn't KO a healthy one. Tornadus-T? Nooooo. Mega Manectric? Another Calm Mind boost for you. Deoxys-S? It can live a Psycho Boost. The only thing that is outpacing and killing Raikou is Mega Aerodactyl, but people usually don't run EQ on it anymore because Fire Fang does everything it does. Choice Scarf has left the meagame with piority rampant in this metagame. It resists Bullet Punch and Brave Bird meaning that it is really hard to RK and Mach Punch does pitiful damage to it. I'm not saying its invincible, because it has to deal with powerful Aqua Jets and Shadow Sneaks and has to KO everything with BoltBeam or its sweep is cut short. AV Raikou adds unpredictability to its arsenal allowing it to come in on a Lava Plume from Heatran and then survive an Earth Power before dieing. Volt Switch turns it into an amazing pivot. AV Raikou hits decentely strong but relies on super-effective hits to do massive damage. This dog gotta' B-
#thunder

 

[LoDart210]

The discussion here is in fact totaly pointless as it has no relevance at all, now with that Victory Road forum even less than before. Before the Council made every decision, but there was a chance they took some of the arguments or even rankings out of this thread so it might have mattered here and there. Now with the other thread in the VR Forum this one here could as well be closed. The Council will base their decisions on the arguments made in the other topic because the people there "have more skill" and the decisions made will apply to the viability list in this thread as well, as already stated above. So the discussion in this thread is only for our personal entertainment, is has no relevance what so ever.

Yeah I have pretty much stopped posting here once the VR thread went up.

-Average players cannot post.

-The changes in the VR thread will be applied here no questions asked.

So basically everyone here is arguing like monkeys for no reason because our opinions and arguments don't affect anything anyway.


I mean, I'm all for the higher ranking players deciding Pokemon viability seeing as they are the more capable users, and most likely play far more often than the average user.

Still, it is a bit offending that hundreds of pages of discussion and argument, that's had it's ups and downs, has been voided.

Again, I think it's a good idea to leave viability ranking and meta game trend tracking to higher level players, but it was a poorly managed change that insults not as good players.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Yeah I have pretty much stopped posting here once the VR thread went up.

-Average players cannot post.

-The changes in the VR thread will be applied here no questions asked.

So basically everyone here is arguing like monkeys for no reason because our opinions and arguments don't affect anything anyway.


I mean, I'm all for the higher ranking players deciding Pokemon viability seeing as they are the more capable users, and most likely play far more often than the average user.

Still, it is a bit offending that hundreds of pages of discussion and argument, that's had it's ups and downs, has been voided.

Again, I think it's a good idea to leave viability ranking and meta game trend tracking to higher level players, but it was a poorly managed change that insults not as good players.

I don't like it either. I get that they want to avoid the trolling that happened in the Swagplay thread, but it's not like that is the norm. Threads like this one are not exclusive to veteran players and have a lot of great points and healthy discussions. By excluding new users from any kind of tiering discussion, not only they are showing a very unpleseant (and not to say, elitist) image of this site to the rest of the internet, but are preventing any kind of new or creative idea that could come from these users from appearing. Without new blood and new opinions, this place could eventually become an island, disconnected from the real world. It's one thing to say that new players cannot make decisions for changes in the metagame, but it's a different thing to say that their opinions are worthless.

 

[114]

Lol the new viability thread in the VR forum is a hilarious show of circle jerk elitist ego stroking.

Also gengar in A- is pretty hilarious over there. It belongs in A+ because of how ridiculously (broken even?) the destiny bond LO 3 attacks set is. I've peaked top 5 on the ladder multiple times with it.

If it means anything anymore, I think darmanitan should be ranked higher for the same reasons staraptor has had some pushing to be higher. I think darmanitan is also a better wallbreaker than staraptor due to the LO set not being locked in, and the CB set 2HKOing defensive rotom-W, which is a huge achievement in strength.

Also Espeon is always criticized for being shitty... but it's the best screen setter for HO teams, and IMO yes better than deo-S at screening.

Screens + BP + morningsun/yawn allows it to keep perfect momentum and match up advantage. Used it many times. Deo-S can't compare because it can't BP out, less bulk, and also can't be priority taunted. Espeon also in general deters hazards, which is critical for HO.
With such a solid niche, B rank

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

All the people complaining about not having their matches counting towards the tier lists anymore, or not being allowed to participate in any meaningful discussions on the forum should just leave and stop posting here (or spend a few months trying to get a badge). There's lots of other online Pokemon communities which are open to new or casual players. Smogon is for top level competitive battling. The kinds of people that play SPL.

This thread should be locked imo. It's become even more pointless than having a Donphan thread in the OU forum.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

All the people complaining about not having their matches counting towards the tier lists anymore, or not being allowed to participate in any meaningful discussions on the forum should just leave and stop posting here (or spend a few months trying to get a badge). There's lots of other online Pokemon communities which are open to new or casual players. Smogon is for top level competitive battling. The kinds of people that play SPL.

This thread should be locked imo. It's become even more pointless than having a Donphan thread in the OU forum.

I just wonder how do you expect getting new top level players if new players are not allowed to participate so they can become top level players.

If anything, the number of top level players in this community will just drop, since new blood is not allowed.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

All the people complaining about not having their matches counting towards the tier lists anymore, or not being allowed to participate in any meaningful discussions on the forum should just leave and stop posting here (or spend a few months trying to get a badge). There's lots of other online Pokemon communities which are open to new or casual players. Smogon is for top level competitive battling. The kinds of people that play SPL.

This thread should be locked imo. It's become even more pointless than having a Donphan thread in the OU forum.

you know what the number 1 argument against smogon is? the elitism. you are literally a walking stereotype.

 

[AA-j]

imo just shut down this thread because it clearly isnt relevant anymore,seeing as the professionals decide how viable shit is now ;.;

 

[Ninja Charizard]

imo just shut down this thread because it clearly isnt relevant anymore,seeing as the professionals decide how viable shit is now ;.;

imo just remove the account creating button from the forum, since new users are not allowed to participate in any discussion.

 

[Baharoth]

Smogon is for top level competitive battling. The kinds of people that play SPL.

If beeing a seasoned SPL player or at least high ranking ladder player was the relevant factor to decide who gets post rights in the VR forum it would be fine for me. However, thats not the case, actually i wonder how many of the people who have posting rights over there play SPL or make top 100 in the ladder. I agree that this thread should be locked though.

 

[cjrocker]

I just wonder how do you expect getting new top level players if new players are not allowed to participate so they can become top level players.

If anything, the number of top level players in this community will just drop, since new blood is not allowed.

Wait what? If anything this should inspire more people to rise up the ranks so they can make meaningful contributions. Ignoring the fact that this is fucking Pokemon, if a higher barrier of entry is so quick to deter you from contributing then maybe you're not meant to contribute at all. The people who care (and there's a lot of them) will make an effort to have their voices heard. And there's a lot of ways to do that outside of this forum. C&C, RMT, CAP, The Smog, etc. If competitive Pokemon is important to you, let it be known. Getting a badge/Victory Road access/whatever is not that hard if you put in enough effort.

Just as everybody has the right to an opinion, everybody has the right to not care. Make the people in charge care what you have to say.