Where does Mega Tyranitar factor into this?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Putting these back up for nomination
I also had a discussion on Mega Houndoom like 7ish pages back we and settled for a B- rank. I just want to see if you guys agree and have objections or additional comments.
It's bulky and can take on common threats, who cares. I don't see Conkeldurr countering Genesect and Megazard Y...two prominent threats.
I'm pretty sure Tyranitar(currently an A rank) counts Mega T-Tar as well. Not entirely sure, though.
No, I believe mega-evolutions are ranked entirely separately from their base forms.
So we haven't ranked Starmie yet. I saw some arguments for B+ a few pages back, and honestly, I would be okay with that. The main reason I think it should be A is that it acts almost exactly like a Greninja, plus rapid spin. The only really big advantage Greninja has is U-turn, but in exchange it can't handle water-types because it lacks thunderbolt.
The weather nerf hit Starmie, but not too hard - it was used on weatherless last gen all the time, it only needed rain if you wanted it to hit really hard. Starmie is more of a slowish revenge killer/fast supporter than a sweeper without rain, and I think that's perfectly okay.
So we haven't ranked Starmie yet. I saw some arguments for B+ a few pages back, and honestly, I would be okay with that. The main reason I think it should be A is that it acts almost exactly like a Greninja, plus rapid spin. The only really big advantage Greninja has is U-turn, but in exchange it can't handle water-types because it lacks thunderbolt.
The weather nerf hit Starmie, but not too hard - it was used on weatherless last gen all the time, it only needed rain if you wanted it to hit really hard. Starmie is more of a slowish revenge killer/fast supporter than a sweeper without rain, and I think that's perfectly okay.
I don't see emboar walling charizard y especially since a lot if them are running earthquake. And most fire types force out genesect anyway and genesect can always keep momentum with u turn
but it can heal off its damage with drain punch, use knock off, do more without running a 100% bulky set, has more reliable priority, more power in general, and does soo much. Emboar looks like it can only sponge hits and hit for no damage. seems pointless. and since it can't heal it can't really counter them, they can chip away with them especially Genesect.
Am I missing something here? Wouldn't Char Y just Air Slash Emboar?
NO! NO AIR SLASH
mentioning Air Slash in an OU viability thread...jeez.
Air Slash on CharY sucks. he's better off running 101 different things, so if Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Focus Miss is the standard, Air Slash is competing with Flare Blitz, EQ, Flame Charge, DD, Dragon Pulse etc all of which are just downright better. outside Emboar, why would you use Air Slash when nothing can take a Fire Blast anyway?
I was assuming the Fire Blast / Solar Beam / Dragon Pulse or Focus Blast / Earthquake set that's listed in C&C without Air Slash, which isn't a very good move on Megazard Y.
EQ only 25% 2HKOes 248 HP Emboar anyways. With a mere 44 Defense EVs, it's a guaranteed 3HKO.
Also Air Slash has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO Careful max SDef variants, which is negligible as far as I'm concerned. Against Adamant max SDef it maxes out at 55.3%. So, even if you count Air Slash, Emboar handles Megazard Y pretty well. It also destroys it with Stone Edge (lol Head Smash on a defensive Pokemon).
Air Slash is notable for 2HKOing Mega Venusaur with better accuracy than Fire Blast/outside of sun, but it does nothing else. It's not a very good move on a Pokemon that would love to have another move in the last slot.
Look I'm not arguing that AV Emboar is better than AV Conkeldurr but it has a niche. I can run 8 Atk Adamant and hit hard enough whilst handling two prominent threats that Conkeldurr can't in addition to some other things. Conkeldurr isn't hitting that hard with a specially defensive AV spread, and neither is Emboar. That's not the point.
EQ only 25% 2HKOes 248 HP Emboar anyways. With a mere 44 Defense EVs, it's a guaranteed 3HKO.
Also Air Slash has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO Careful max SDef variants, which is negligible as far as I'm concerned. Against Adamant max SDef it maxes out at 55.3%. So, even if you count Air Slash, Emboar handles Megazard Y pretty well. It also destroys it with Stone Edge (lol Head Smash on a defensive Pokemon).
Air Slash is notable for 2HKOing Mega Venusaur with better accuracy than Fire Blast/outside of sun, but it does nothing else. It's not a very good move on a Pokemon that would love to have another move in the last slot.
Look I'm not arguing that AV Emboar is better than AV Conkeldurr but it has a niche. I can run 8 Atk Adamant and hit hard enough whilst handling two prominent threats that Conkeldurr can't in addition to some other things. Conkeldurr isn't hitting that hard with a specially defensive AV spread, and neither is Emboar. That's not the point.
Well, I was initially pretty skeptical about Emboar too, but the posts in favor have convinced me that it has a niche, if a small one - I mean, how many things can you name that solidly wall Genesect? (Answer: Heatran). Yes, it is heavily outclassed by Heatran in this role, but that's why it would be in C.
Slap an assault vest on just about any fire mon and it can counter special genesect. Even Infernape takes only 33% from a genesect thunderbolt. Emboar doesn't have a niche in ou at all. It's outclassed by so many fire types you have to be insane to use it. There is a reason why it isn't going to have a preview. It just isn't OU viable.
Yeah, I suppose it really has no niche because similar, much better pokemon can do the exact same niche too but better. The lesson here is, don't try and rank crap that isn't going to get an OU analysis because the QC team deemed them not OU viable for a reason.
Greninja's Protean HP Electric is just as powerful as Starmie's unstabbed Thunderbolt, base power wise. It's just got better options to run. Starmie should not be trying to compete with Greninja in the role of a fast special attacker because it's heavily outclassed, it really needs to emphasise its niche as a fast, specially offensive rapid spinner to be relevant.
I'd like to argue for Togekiss to be placed in A rank. Its unique typing gives it some useful resistances including a Ground-immunity and a x4 Resistance to Fighting and Bug. It also has excellent base 85/95/115 defenses, allowing it to sponge most hits. It also has access to reliable means of recovery in Roost and Wish. It can provide invaluable support to its team with Defog, a niche it shares with few viable pokemon in OU like the Latis, Mandibuzz, Scizor, Gliscor and Zapdos. The advantage it has over this pokes is its Fairy-typing: being able to switch in on most Garchomp sets safely is no small feat. Thunder Wave is another move it can utilise to great effect, as even pokemon it can't touch, like Heatran don't appreciate the parahax. And ofcourse, ParaFlinching with Serene Grace is as effective (and annoying) as ever. Base 120 SAtk helps greatly too, as it hits reasonably hard with no investment as well. I personally really like this following set the most, though it can run many sets including mixed Work Up (yeah, the one with Hustle ExtremeSpeed), the UU StallBreaker set (Nasty Plot/Roost/Heal Bell/Air Slash), a Cleric Set, a WishPasser set as well as offensive LO sets with a variety of special moves including Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Grass Knot, Dazzling Gleam etc. I think Togekiss deserves to be amongst the other A rank pokes, from my personal experience using it at least.
Togekiss @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Defog
Togekiss @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Defog
Uhm... what? Did you calc with regular zard or something? No, it has to be Charmeleon or something.
0- Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Emboar: 126-150 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 24% chance to 3HKO (w 0 attack IVs)
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 212-250 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Emboar: 198-234 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed 2HKO w rocks)
Anyways, yeah let's drop the Emboar. He's not OU eligible.
mmm I did a Timid calc sorry
You kill Megazard Y anyways. If it doesn't have EQ, Emboar destroys it. If it does, you take 50% and KO it. Worth it to me.
I stated valid reasons to run Emboar. I didn't say it was a great Pokemon, but there's no reason to completely brush it off when it is an excellent Megazard Y check and a Genesect counter.
I'd rather use Heatran under any circumstances if I want a Genesect counter.
It's not an excellent Megazard check when it's 2HKOd by the variants carrying EQ (which IMO all Megazard Y's should for Heatran). Running that thing would only be viable if your team consists of Ferrothorns.
With that said, I'd like to support Zapdos up to B+, as it holds reasonably good bulk, checks Special Luke very well, has a fairly strong Volt-Switch as well as Heat Wave as a coverage option. It can run a SubToxic set to a good extent, having the niche of being more specially bulky than Gliscor and having access to Pressure. All in all a fairly good mon in the meta as of now.
Yeah, Emboar has a few uses, but there are so many flaws that it rarely would get to do the few things it can. Also all of its uses are done better by other pokemon. I have yet to see a single reason why I'd use it this gen so even if it were eligible for a ranking (we've already established it isn't due to no analysis), I wouldn't give it a very high one because it just isn't good enough for OU
You argue that trevenant completely counters breloom, which i do agree with as it can take any stab moves, rock tomb, and retaliate with will o wisp, however just saying a pokemon has counters does not make that pokemon bad by any means. If breloom had no hard counters then it would be in ubers. Many things do counter breloom such as celebi, trevenant, and gourgeist but even the best pokemon have hard counters, that's part of what balances the game. I do agree that breloom definetly lost a lot of its power that it had last gen, but it still has a very good niche as the best spore user in the game. Furthermore, the sashloom set which u failed to mention can take that air slash and put said togekiss to sleep, essentially crippling it. Breloom's checks fear switching into a technician boosted mach punch, bullet seed, or rock tomb. Not to mention that sash loom which i believe is the best breloom set at the moment, can cripple counters to your main sweeper opening the path to a sweep. Rotom-w or tyranitar causing ur talonflame problems? Breloom beats both bar scarf rotoms w/ will o wisp. Azumarill stopping your mega charizard x in its tracks? Breloom removes those threats and opens the way. I believe rather than thinking of breloom as a sweeper to sweep entire teams, think of breloom like a support pokemon designed to remove key threats in the current metagame.
If this logic was applied to previous Metagames, I suppose Dragonite, Hydreigon, Latios, Kyurem-B (remember that it only has soft counters, not hard counters), and quite a few others that have no direct counters could be Uber in BW, right? Even in this Gen, Dragonite maintains no hard counters, as Fairy-Types are struck down by its coverage moves. Should Dragonite be Uber? Obviously not; every Pokemon has checks that, when used correctly, can threaten a Pokemon. I know what the rest of your post is trying to say, though, so it's not like this statement ENTIRELY derails your argument, but...you know what I mean.
Guys, it's going nowhere. Let's focus on other offensive Fire-Types like Victini, Darminitan, and Entei.people about Emboar said:
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Fair enough. I guess I wasn't being clear - Greninja is definitely better than Starmie as a fast special attacker, but it does essentially the same thing Starmie does, noticeably better but without rapid spin. I think that of the two, Starmie is better because spinning, but they're pretty close either way.
Also I forgot to mention that Mega-Blastoise basically killed bulky Starmie lol.
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