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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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So you haven't used it?
So then if multiple people are saying its good, why are you arguing against it if you have no experience with it? ?_?
The problem with Mega Zam is that not only does Life Orb Alakazam hit harder than Mega Zam, but Focus Sash is a much more dedicated and efficient revenge killer. (With the combination of magic guard and sash, you will always hit twice guaranteed.) In a metagame full of Bulky Offense and Priority Mega Alakazam looks better on paper than in actual practice. It's fraility will always be it's downfall. It is taken care of by even the most common priority users (Talonflame, Bisharp, Scizor) and will usually get one or two hits off before it is KO'd. I'm surprised it's B- and regular Alakazam is C+, actually. It should be the other way around in my opinion.
If you've never used it, and you obviously don't know that much about it going by your posts, don't post about it. Simple as that. You don't have a good enough understanding to make an opinion.
Now onto my point. I'd like to discuss Mandibuzz possibly moving down to A-. When it comes to Defog, I'm seeing a lot of players opting to go with offensive defoggers such as the Lati@s twins (who are now running HP Fight to deal with Bisharp on the switch). On the defensive side, I would say that Zapdos, Latias, MScizor, and Skarmory compete with the buzzard for a spot.
With that being said, is Mandibuzz staying in A because of its ability to check Aegislash so well? Mandibuzz has a hard time with the popular SubToxic set and the LO set has a good chance to 2HKO with Flash Cannon after SR. I feel like Sp.Def Hipowdon does a better job at checking the great sword.
When looking at the other A rank Pokemon, I feel like Mandibuzz is the odd-one-out as it doesn't really threaten anything--offensively or defensively--outside of Aegislash. It doesn't threaten teams like ZardY, Dragonite, or Terrakion do. It doesn't really pressure stall as well as Gengar or Kyurem-B (Taunt Mandibuzz is still good). And I personally think that it doesn't wall as well as Heatran, Hippowdon, or Ferrothorn (nor does it have Ferro's utility).
It can't come into ZardX or Landorus and outright loses to Thundurs. 7 out of the 15 Pokemon in A+ beat it while Bisharp usually stops it at doing one of its main jobs.
TL;DR - Mandibuzz may need to drop to A-. Its kinda outclassed as a Defogger and other things do its defensive jobs better.
bro, first off normal zam SUCKS as a revenge killer, when deo-s exists. and second, it can outspeed base 132s with a modest nature, thus allowing it to hit harder than standard LO zam. and you never kept ANY alakazam on stuff like scizor, let alone bisharp. it can just pop right in and dish out some hurt against any pokemon that doesnt resist its moves. also since when does priority dominate the meta? it didnt stop greninja from being OU. it didnt stop (mega) gardevoir from being OU. when does it stop mega alakazam from literally shitting all over stall and offense? you should learn the meta fren.
Basically, Ghost-, Flying-, Poison-, and Fairy-types make him their bitch. Fighting/Bug coverage is resisted by a lot of things due to this, notable Pokemon include Mega Charizard Y, Gengar, Intimidate Gyarados, Zapdos, Dragonite, Azumarill, Togekiss, Gliscor, Scolipede, Volcarona, Landorus-T, Talonflame, Aegislash, Sylveon, and Mega Pinsir. Aside from Mega Evolving, Heracross only has the Choice Scarf set to be viable in OU, and while he does have Stone Edge, Knock Off, and Earthquake to hit many of the Pokemon that I mentioned either very hard or super-effectively, Choice locked Pokemon generally prefer it if their STAB attacks aren't resisted by too many threats. Also, his defensive typing leaves him weak to common Fire-, Flying-, and Fairy-type moves, and most of the mentioned threats carry moves of these types either as STAB or coverage.
tl;dr Simply put, his STABs are resisted by too many things, and the Choice Scarf set really suffers because of this. Also, he's weak to common offensive types.
First of all, its UU because of usage, this thread has nothing to do with tier placement.
As for ScarfCross, it isn't all that good because of how easily it is walled, especially since it has to be locked into a move. If you look down the viability ranks, pretty much everything in the A ranks beat it in some capacity, whether it is revenge killing, checking, or straight up walling (including all of S bar Deo-D). There is really no 1 move that Cross can just lock itself into and spam like other scarfers.
Who is biased here lol xD
Believe it or not but i do indeed change my oppinion if there are good arguments against it, for example when Lando was recommended for S rank the first time i thought he wasnt worth it but the post of another user convinced me that i was wrong. But if you think arguing is pointless then leave it be and dont reply to my posts. Thanks.
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1. False. Standard Sash and LO Alakazam both run a Timid nature, LO boosting SAtk from 369 to 490. Mega Alakazam always runs Modest as it can afford to run a +SAtk nature with 150 Speed, giving Mega Alakazam 493 Special Attack and 399 Speed, which means it hits harder than LO AND is faster.
2. Focus Sash Alakazam may be a very good revenge killer, but there are much better revenge killers out there, including Talonflame and Greninja. It may always be able to fire off a move, but it lacks in power compared to LO, who faints to everything in a single hit. The point you've made about Mega Alakazam being frail applies far more to regular LO Alakazam. 45 Defense is so much bulkier than 65 Defense, right? The point I'm getting at is that they each fulfill different functions: regular Alakazam is a revenge killer, but Mega Alakazam a sweeper. With its monstrous Special Attack, blistering Speed and great coverage, it can hit a ton of stuff hard while outspeeding several prominent threats. They play differently and fit on teams depending on the team's needs.
3. Scizor counters regular AND Mega Alakazam, js. Bullet Punch sniping. Mega Alakazam survives unboosted Bullet Punch, Traces Technician and OHKOes with HP Fire, so that's where Mega wins. Generally priority is the bane of both, however.
4. "You will always hit twice guaranteed?" Say hello to priority; you even mention it yourself. As I've mentioned before, two Bullet Punches from Mega Scizor will do both variants of Alakazam in. Well contradicted.
5. "Mega Alakazam will always get one or two hits off before it's KOed." As will regular Zam, for that matter. Usually only one or two. If you criticize Mega Alakazam for not being able to last long, while either failing to see this is the case with regular Alakazam as well or blatantly ignoring it out of favoritism, you are again contradicting yourself.
You just bash Mega Alakazam for flaws it has that generally apply to regular Alakazam as well, usually to a more extreme extent. LO Alakazam is utterly outperformed by Mega Alakazam, who has Trace to copy a huge myriad of useful Abilities - Technician, Adaptability, Prankster, Regenerator, Magic Guard, Overcoat, Protean, etc., as well as superior offensive stats. In general, it's safe to say the rankings are just as good as they are right now and with the positives I have stated for Mega Alakazam, I support Mega Alakazam moving up to B.
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and now the rudeness starts lol. Stating an observation doesn't give you the right to be rude, but to each his own. In regards to mega heracross it's a nightmare for stall tbh but struggles against offensive teams and is hard to slot onto a team. If you plan on building a heracross team you pretty much have to base the entire team around him and provide a ton of support for it to do it's job well. As far regular heracross goes I don't really have any kind of initiative to use it simply because it's ass in OU :/ too many things stop it from doing it's job well and it struggles so damn much to be a good revenge killer, plus it loses to a lot of common revenge killers (tflame, mega pinsir, keldeo, azumarill, chomp, etc)
Wow. Well let's decipher what you just said.
"first off normal zam SUCKS as a revenge killer" - I'm confused. Alakazam has the ability to outspeed a vast portion of OU and 2HKO most of them. With a sash it is guaranteed firing something off, living whatever is being fired off at it and doing some serious damage back to your opponent, AGAIN. (If it outspeeds and if your opponent is not carrying priority.) You don't pay attention to any type of hazards, residual damage or status so I really am confused as to how Alakazam "sucks" as a revenge killer because that is one of it's main roles and why it became OU in the first place..
Modeset Nature hits harder: Yes, Modest Mega Zam does hit harder than regular Alakazam with Life Orb. Congrats. But it is by such a small margin that it is barely noticeable. (If you don't believe me, do the calcs for yourself.) But what exactly is stopping you from using A Modest Life Orb Alakazam that would hit harder than Modest Mega Alakazam?
"you never kept ANY alakazam on stuff like scizor, let alone bisharp" - This is the beauty of Alakazam. If you run the sash set, you live whatever Bisharp and Scizor can throw at you and can throw off an HP fire or a Focus Blast... if you're feeling ballsy. The difference between Sash Zam and Mega Zam is that you actually have a chance to do something back instead of getting straight up OHKOd.
"since when does priority dominate the meta?" -And you tell me to learn more about the meta...? Pinsir, Talonflame, Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Scizor ETC. Hello?
Edit: kyuzeth You actually bring up a good point about the priority argument and I did contradict myself by not acknowledging it even though I brought it up earlier.
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1st point: Deoxys-S exists, which utterly eclipses sash zam.
2nd point: modest LO zam speed ties with base 105s, which is not good.
3rd point:you are correct, but there are other members of the team and lolol surprise subs exist
4th point: only 2 of those priorities actually OHKO megazam, and megazam can OHKO right back with the proper move. also, you seem to be ignoring that it got a defense upgrade from base 45 to base 65, so it can stay in on stuff that sash zam cant, because it can actually OHKO or 2HKO stuff. also, you CAN be frail and exist in the OU metagame. greninja is a great mon and it gets OHKOed by 2 priorities, just like megazam. not that im comparing greninja to mega alakazam, you seem to think that mega zam is a revenge killer. while it CAN revenge +1 mega gyarados, it isnt primarily a revenge killer.
I'm personally arguing for B+ but w/e.
It can outspeed and OHKO Deo-D. Almost nothing else can do this. So if you're using a cleaner set, you can counter-lead Deo-D.
Those were examples. And if you're trying to clean up late game you shouldn't be using Banded U-Turn lol.
This is the set in the analysis:
Protect + 3 Attacks
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name: Protect + 3 Attacks
move 1: Protect
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Poison Jab / Rock Slide
move 4: Earthquake
ability: Speed Boost
item: Life Orb
evs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
nature: Adamant
So I guess it's personal preference. I'd pick Rock Slide though.
Not arguing for it as a revenge killer. But it can do that on some threats.
Are we really doing this shit?
For now I'm going to use a set with Rock Slide, not Poison Jab. And due to Speed Boost, I'm just going to assume it outspeeds everything in the meta, which it can with only two boosts.
S Rank:
Aegislash -------------57 - 67.2%
Charizard (Mega-X)--79.5 - 94.2% (0/0) | 66 - 78.2% (248/0)
Deoxys-D ---------------OHKOed
Deoxys-S ---------------OHKOed
Landorus ---------------39.6 - 47.1%
Thundurus -------------87.6 - 103% but has Prankster T-Wave (but beats Defiant sets)
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Azumarill --------------Poison Jab OHKOs but Erfquake only does 38.6 - 45.7%
Bisharp ----------------Sucker Punch KOs
Clefable ---------------Walled without Poison Jab
Excadrill ---------------108.5 - 127.9% so long as Balloon is gone
Garchomp -------------67.8 - 80.7%
Greninja ---------------OHKOed
Gyarados (Mega) -----OHKOed, but could win if not MEvolved
Keldeo -----------------43.9 - 52%
Mawile (Mega) --------Sucker Punch
Pinsir (Mega) ----------Quick Attack
Scizor (Mega)---------Walls
Talonflame ------------BRAVE BERD
Tyranitar --------------OHKOed
Tyranitar (Mega) -----OHKOed
Venusaur (Mega) -----53.8 - 63.4%
A Rank
Charizard (Mega-Y) -OHKOED
Dragonite -------------Prob wins
Ferrothorn ------------40.3 - 48%
Gengar ----------------56.1 - 66.4%
Heatran ---------------OHKOed without Balloon
Hippowdon -------------Walls
Kyurem-B --------------59.8 - 70.8%
Landorus-T -------------Walls
Mandibuzz --------------Walls
Latios -------------------OHKOed
Terrakion ---------------87.6 - 103.7%
A- Rank
Breloom ----------------OHKOed if Sash is gone
Chansey ---------------43.7 - 51.7%
Diggersby --------------OHKOed but Quick Attack sort of hurts
Latias ------------------OHKOed
Mamoswine ------------77.6 - 91.4%, Ice Shard
Manaphy ---------------68.6 - 81.2%
Rotom-W ---------------52.9 - 62.8%
Skarmory ---------------Walls hard
A Rank:
A+ Rank
A Rank
A- Rank
None of S-rank, only T-Tar and Clefable, only Lati@s, Heatran and possibly Y-zard: uh not by my count. It can threaten a lot of stuff and many things it just needs some prior damage on to KO.
I didn't suggest that beating those two made it A-/B+. It's a thing it has over pokemon, from higher rankings, that you compared it to. Talonflame and Deo-S, who are in higher rankings and already agreed upon to be more viable, do not eclipse it to any significant extent since Scolipede threatens different things than Talonflame and Deo-S does. Which is why I don't think a comparison to them is apt.
See above.
"I have never used it because I think it's bad, and I refuse to use it to see if it's as bad as I think it is" jesus didn't Dr. Seuss write a book about this once.
Thats a bold assumption but fine, your listing the amount of damage it can do but the fact remains that it cant beat most of the mons in S and A ranks without prior damage, and in many cases alot of it. Doing up to 67% to Aegi is nice but whats it good for if it gets ohkoed back after rocks?
And honestly did you test every single poke you ever made a post about? If i dont see a reason to use a pokemon then i am not using it, and in this case i realy dont see one. If i need something fast for revengekilling/lategame sweeping i will always go with Scarf Chomp/Terra, Deo-S or Talonflame as they dont need that many pokemon gone/heavily damaged before they can attempt a sweep.
I mean we are not talking about prior damage in the dimension of SR damage or something, for most of the things it needs 40-60% prior damage to KO thats simply to much.
No i dont, please explain it to me.
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Mega Heracross Definetly needs to be built around to do even ok. I've found the main way to use Him well is on a sticky web team. Problem with that is well defog exists. Remove their hazard clear first and then mega heracross really is scary for offense teams and stall alike. If you are just looking for a strong pokemon for stall Mega Medicham or Mawile is definitely more useful overall.
getting them shout outs, nb. I agree with raising nape to B- as it can still play well given the right support. It's defensive set was at first used as a gimmick but now I see that tbh it's a monster. For reasoning just look at the RMT that I am too lazy to link :] It's offensive stats are not the greatest but a lot of stall teams do still have trouble vs infernape. HP grass / grass knot takes out quag handily, Fire Blast smashes Skarmory, Ferro, Amoonguss and to a leser extent Mega Venusaur. Close Combat can start to hurt from a banded set and Char X doesn't like CC, Rock Slide, or eq. It's stall break set plays pretty much like how Landorus does in that you have to use the same pokes on stall to beat it (sdef dnite, mantine, etc).
I like Infernape but it realy has a hard time finding a slot on a team when there are Keldeo and Terrakion available who do most of the things Infernape can do, just better. I think the C ranks are ok for it since its outclassed for the most part, we could argue for moving it to C+ as its still good but i think thats the limit.
What Nog said. Also, Mixed Ape does a good job too guaranteeing safety from Bisharp, Greninja, TTar, and stuff with that Mach Punch while screwing over Gyara and switch ins to Talonflame and Azumarill with Thunderpunch+Mach Punch while still being a good wallbreaker.
Both sets are very underrated smh inferrape>keldicko and terektion. (I have yet to use the stallbreaker set because I hate being mainstream, I've seen it used though it's pretty good)
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I agree that Infernape is partially outclassed by Keldeo and Terrakion, but It is much mute versatile than either if the two. Terrakion is Choiced or is sashed with Stealth Rocks/Swords Dance most of the time while Keldeo is almost always Specs or sometimes CM. Basically, Infernape is a lot less predictable.
Edit: While Keldeo outclasses Infernape in many ways, Infernape wrecks stall much easier than Keldeo with its great coverage
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I think Rotom-H is badly undervalued at C+. It suffers in perception because it isn't Rotom-W, but this is silly. Sometimes, you already have water on your team and want a fire version of almost the exact same thing. They play so similarly and yet one is at A- and the other C+!
On its own merits: Rotom-H has a whopping eight resistances and one immunity whilst only having two weaknesses. Like its watery brother, it's also whoppingly bulky and can take a super effective attack in its stride. Yes, it is stealth rock weak, but since it is always played with some type of recovery, it can eat that.
It's also immune to two status effects, which is excellently useful.
Biggest of all, however, is how much of a pain in the ass it is to top tier threats -- remember that Rotom-H generally runs physically defensive, unlike Rotom-W. Aegislash just hates it, as does Talonflame. Scizor quakes in its boots. Mawile runs away. If running double-status (which I do) then DD Char-X can be paralysed to uselessness (as can Char-Y). And let's face it, very few of those top threats would like to switch into a choice of burn or paralysis. All that and Volt Turn too.
Using it for real shows it for the great support that it is. This is no specialist niche mon, it's genuine worth considering for many teams. Because of that, C+ seems waaaay too low. It needs to be B at least.
On its own merits: Rotom-H has a whopping eight resistances and one immunity whilst only having two weaknesses. Like its watery brother, it's also whoppingly bulky and can take a super effective attack in its stride. Yes, it is stealth rock weak, but since it is always played with some type of recovery, it can eat that.
It's also immune to two status effects, which is excellently useful.
Biggest of all, however, is how much of a pain in the ass it is to top tier threats -- remember that Rotom-H generally runs physically defensive, unlike Rotom-W. Aegislash just hates it, as does Talonflame. Scizor quakes in its boots. Mawile runs away. If running double-status (which I do) then DD Char-X can be paralysed to uselessness (as can Char-Y). And let's face it, very few of those top threats would like to switch into a choice of burn or paralysis. All that and Volt Turn too.
Using it for real shows it for the great support that it is. This is no specialist niche mon, it's genuine worth considering for many teams. Because of that, C+ seems waaaay too low. It needs to be B at least.
You can't just "eat" a stealth rock weakness on a Pokemon like Rotom-H. It doesn't have actual recovery options like Zard-X, Zapdos, or Mandibuzz (Roost). Its suffering the same problem as Rotom-W in that it gets worn down over time and losing 25% hp on a switch in just makes that easier.
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