Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Slayerblade]

I think Celebii should move up to C+ or B-. It's better than people give it credit for. It's decent good bulky grass type, with a great support movepool and good bulk. Pretty much a full stop to Rotom-W Breloom, Keldeo, and Thundurous and decent check to Azumarril, Terrakion and Landorus without Sludge Wave.

 

[Red Cat]

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one still unhappy about Mantine being ranked, because it is just opening the nomination gates from the lower tiers for more mediocre stuff. Might as well clear things up.

If Nog is able to make Mantine work well in OU, then I trust his judgement that it is viable. Nog is a good teambuilder and he probably has a specific reason for using Mantine on his team. I think this is different than a noob nominating a Pokemon to be ranked because it does X, Y, and Z without testing to see if that Pokemon is actually any good on the high ladder or in tournament play.

 

[Aquaslash]

I think I missed something. What happened for Meloetta to go completely unranked? Is the knock off spam that serious?

 

[TheTraininator]

I think I missed something. What happened for Meloetta to go completely unranked? Is the knock off spam that serious?

Well yes it is, but that's not why she is unranked. She just really has no use in the OU metagame at all right now when even Pokemon that outclass her like Alakazam and Azelf are on the lower end of the rankings. Her Pirouette forme is all she has to differentiate herself with, but it is far too gimmicky to try to use in this meta. She not only struggles in the meta, but she doesn't add much of anything over her competitors who are also struggling in the meta. She kicks ass in the lower tiers though, but does poorly outside of them.

 

[Stef0w]

Snorlax, Toxicroak, Meloetta, Escavalier, Gardevoir, Kyurem, Cloyster, Jirachi, Reuniclus - not to be used on serious teams, too small of a niche to be considered, outclassed at everything, etc.

I kinda have an issue with this, Who on earth would really use Mega Abomasnow/banette, and Blissey.


Even if you really love trick room, It still faces the choice players have to use mega mawile, one of the best poke's in the meta.


Escavalier deserves a re-ranking too, it's certainly has niche's in hitting harder, having a ground attack, and being able to out-slow aegislash, over normal scizor.

EDIT: dont forget being immune to spore.

 

[Askeia]

If Nog is able to make Mantine work well in OU, then I trust his judgement that it is viable. Nog is a good teambuilder and he probably has a specific reason for using Mantine on his team. I think this is different than a noob nominating a Pokemon to be ranked because it does X, Y, and Z without testing to see if that Pokemon is actually any good on the high ladder or in tournament play.

I never implied Mantine is bad. It does its job well enough, except horribly outclassed. Defog is the only thing it has over Gyarados, but it is a pretty terrible Defogger such that on stall where it is supposed to work, another Defogger is still required. Problem is that if another reliable user of Defog is on the team, then using Gyarados does Mantine's work better unless it's one of those extremely rare niche moments where 2 Defoggers are needed.

 

[koista12]

I never implied Mantine is bad. It does its job well enough, except horribly outclassed. Defog is the only thing it has over Gyarados, but it is a pretty terrible Defogger such that on stall where it is supposed to work, another Defogger is still required. Problem is that if another reliable user of Defog is on the team, then using Gyarados is better unless it's one of those extremely rare niche moments where 2 Defoggers are needed.

Which is why mantine is D and gyarados is B+. If a high level player can make it work and says its good, I think I trust him enough to put it at a low ranking

Escavalier deserves a re-ranking too, it's certainly has niche's in hitting harder, having a ground attack, and being able to out-slow aegislash, over normal scizor.

EDIT: dont forget being immune to spore.

Can you find me a single instance of escavalier used in high level play?

Wen was the last time anyone else here considered using escavalier in a team? I never have.

Out slowing aegislash means you get nuked by a shadow ball, kill aegislash, and then get killed by te next thing that comes in. Or aegislash uses KS and you get -2 attack (using drill run allows a flying type or levitating to switch in)

Escavalier is slower than most walls, has no priority, and no niche over scizor. I can't see why you would want to use it in OU. All you have stated in its favor is overcoat.

 

[Stef0w]

Which is why mantine is D and gyarados is B+. If a high level player can make it work and says its good, I think I trust him enough to put it at a low ranking



Can you find me a single instance of escavalier used in high level play?

Wen was the last time anyone else here considered using escavalier in a team? I never have.

Out slowing aegislash means you get nuked by a shadow ball, kill aegislash, and then get killed by te next thing that comes in. Or aegislash uses KS and you get -2 attack (using drill run allows a flying type or levitating to switch in)

Escavalier is slower than most walls, has no priority, and no niche over scizor. I can't see why you would want to use it in OU. All you have stated in its favor is overcoat.

Nobody would use haxorus or hawlucha either, but they get a ranking.

Why would the pro's use anything outside the A-rank anyway, are you saying we should only have A-rank pokes included?

It has better bulk too.

Oh, and mantine is complete trash, boot that shit off the list.

 

[QuickBH]

Why would the pro's use anything outside the A-rank anyway, are you saying we should only have A-rank pokes included?

Pokemon in B-rank and even C+ rank are seen decently enough in high-level play, A rank Pokemon are just easier to fit into teams due to there notable strengths and also have stronger metagame presence. Pokemon in lower ranks have notable niches, but don't have the ease of accessibility in teams and strong metagame presence the Pokemon in higher ranks have. Don't just assume anything is bad because of a mere ranking, and understand that there is more to it.

 

[Nog]

Damn haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate it seems. First off I use Hawlucha too and made some teams with Toxzn and Tesung with it a while back. It nukes the fuck out of things and good luck catching it after the Unburden boost as it sits way up in the speed tiers. Fighting / Flying is great primary and secondary STAB as well as nice coverage. Aegislash does cock block it, but paired with something that beats / traps it you can pretty much sail smoothly.

Also not sure what constitutes a "pro", but I've played in a few major team tours and done well in most using underrated threats. Literally everything on the list I've used in OU solely for the reason of making viability rankings here in the OU forums better. I make sure I'm well versed enough with each poke to make an argument for each of them and shoot down bad arguments when I see them. Just because your 1500 elo self doesn't think certain pokes should be ranked doesn't mean jack shit unless you back up your claims with some solid evidence.

We discussed Mantine time and time again and at this point we're just talking in circles. Defog and Water Absorb are what it has over Gyarados, yes we got that. Gyarados is B+, Mantine is D, we got that. I know these things because I'm probably the only dude in this thread that uses it consistently and consistently does well with it. I realized it wasn't really on par with other C- mons and suggested that we move it down, not based on others opinions or on arguments posted in this thread. I realized I was doing well based on player skill rather than the poke itself. Yeah case closed, it's not moving up or down unless the meta shifts.

Also if you want something like Escavalier ranked I'm really not sure what to tell you besides no. It's main selling point is...what? It can use Assault Vest better than Scizor? At least other mons on the list have a niche over others as well as some high level usage. Can't say the same for Escavalier unfortunately. Lastly sorry for my shit posting a bit, but I actually do grow tired saying the same thing over and over. Carry on folks.

 

[Askeia]

So much for backing up your claims with solid evidence. A page ago I asked for actual cases where those niches mantine has over gyayados actually matters, and there was no evidence on that. (When a niche is irrelevant then it's not a niche). all you are using to back up your claims are that you are 'well versed'. Hah that's funny

 

[Ajwf]

So much for backing up your claims with solid evidence. A page ago I asked for actual cases where those niches mantine has over gyayados actually matters, and there was no evidence on that. (When a niche is irrelevant then it's not a niche). all you are using to back up your claims are that you are 'well versed'. Hah that's funny

Mantine is interesting as a defogger as it does list in as one of two defoggers that can beat heatran, the other being latias, which has to try. Of course, spinners have an easier time of it but this is beside the point. Heatran generally just sits in on defoggers and sets up more layers (and generally does this to lati, as well). Mantine can win, although it is a bit slow to do so. With water absorb, mantine does actually have a fantastic niche in taking pure RD CM rest Manaphy. Which, for stall, is almost unheard of outside of Venu getting in early.

Lastly, mantine does have access to haze. While not so worthwhile anymore, Haze+Scald makes it hard for anything to switch in and then for a setup sweeper to gain back any power. Speaking of scald, that's also another thing mantine does over gyara: Burns. Gyara really doesn't go special and I'm not sure it even has access to scald. However, mantine can threaten burn relatively easily making it at least a bit hard to switch into.

 

[Salemance]

So much for backing up your claims with solid evidence. A page ago I asked for actual cases where those niches mantine has over gyayados actually matters, and there was no evidence on that. (When a niche is irrelevant then it's not a niche). all you are using to back up your claims are that you are 'well versed'. Hah that's funny

Only reason he is saying it is cause its been stated several times over and over again. I don't use mantine so I cant advocate for its usefulness but if someone with such high ranking is advocating that hard and has stressed time and time again why it should work, I don't know if its worth bickering about anymore.

 

[Sevifar]

Nice to see the lower ranks cleared up a bit. I was gonna make some arguments about Hydreigon and Rotom-H moving up, but I'll think I'll hold off until the suspect test ends, since countering/checking Aegislash is one of the reasons you'd use them.

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

Since apparently Mantine can get ranked for having an ability that is decent but not better and a great utility move it can't use well over gyarados, which otherwise outclasses it, doesn't that mean escavilier deserves a rank for slightly higher special bulk and attack, an ability in almost the same boat, a move that it can use well without the sheer utility of defogger in drill run and the ability to beat aegislash despite being otherwise outclassed by scizor?

 

[effyouzion]

Mantine's niche should be pretty clear: special wall with water absorb who resists Keldeo's secret sword. Keldeo + Suicune answer in one mon is pretty sweet -- Suicune rapes most stall teams, and Keldeo is everywhere.

I think Torn-T should move up to A. His AV set is an excellent pivot that requires next to no support. As long as rocks are off the field, he can come in on any neutral special hit, spread knock off, then use his great speed to u-turn out all while healing. Hurricane's accuracy is annoying but it's worth the risk as it turns him into an excellent M-Venu counter and lets him do big damage to annoying mons like Gliscor who can't do much in return other than toxic (which is easily healed off with regenerator).

He can also work as a rain sweeper, although he can be hard to fit on those teams. The turn limit on rain means you can't just u-turn around, you need to be doing massive damage. LO Hurricane with superpower/knock off coverage is very hard to switch in to, but on the other hand Torn can't OHKO things like you would want your rain sweeper to do (+2 Kabutops for example). Lack of spinners/defoggers on rain teams also hurts him there.

I think he functions even better without weather, but the option is always there.

Since apparently Mantine can get ranked for having an ability that is decent but not better and a great utility move it can't use well over gyarados, which otherwise outclasses it, doesn't that mean escavilier deserves a rank for slightly higher special bulk and attack, an ability in almost the same boat, a move that it can use well without the sheer utility of defogger in drill run and the ability to beat aegislash despite being otherwise outclassed by scizor?

Scizor gets both knock off and pursuit, and can beat Aegislash pretty easily. Escavalier is outclassed by Scizor much more than Scizor was outclassed by, say, Genesect.

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

What I meant was that as far as I'm concerned escavilier is as outclassed by scizor as Mantine is by gyarados so I believe Mantine and escavilier should either both be unranked or both in d

 

[MilkyWay]

I think we should just blacklist Mantine and leave it in D because the discussion is really off track and it's obviously staying in D for the time being

 

[AM]

Mantine's niche should be pretty clear: special wall with water absorb who resists Keldeo's secret sword. Keldeo + Suicune answer in one mon is pretty sweet -- Suicune rapes most stall teams, and Keldeo is everywhere.

I think Torn-T should move up to A. His AV set is an excellent pivot that requires next to no support. As long as rocks are off the field, he can come in on any neutral special hit, spread knock off, then use his great speed to u-turn out all while healing. Hurricane's accuracy is annoying but it's worth the risk as it turns him into an excellent M-Venu counter and lets him do big damage to annoying mons like Gliscor who can't do much in return other than toxic (which is easily healed off with regenerator).

He can also work as a rain sweeper, although he can be hard to fit on those teams. The turn limit on rain means you can't just u-turn around, you need to be doing massive damage. LO Hurricane with superpower/knock off coverage is very hard to switch in to, but on the other hand Torn can't OHKO things like you would want your rain sweeper to do (+2 Kabutops for example). Lack of spinners/defoggers on rain teams also hurts him there.

I think he functions even better without weather, but the option is always there.

Yeah this was actually discussed a couple pages back and although it had some supporters for the move up, a conclusion was reached that it shouldn't. You can start reading at around page 165 to see some arguments on that.

 

[Halcyon.]

Speaking of Gyarados though, I would like it to be moved up to A- rank n_n

I've been using this a lot lately (and it's received a fair bit of tour usage as well), and it really has exceeded my expectations. People tend to favor the mega version, and while Mega Gyarados is certainly threatening, regular Gyarados still has quite a few notable advantages that set it apart and still make it A rank in my opinion. The first is that instead of being forced to hold a Mega Stone, Gyarados can hold Lum Berry instead, which is good for three things: it let's it beat Thundurus, it makes switching on Keldeo much safer, and it can bluff the Mega Stone. Beating Thundurus is probably the most notable of the three, as doing so can clear the way for another sweeper or a Flying user like Talonflame or Tornadus-T. Setting up on Keldeo is nice for obvious reasons, as it's very common on offense and Gyarados tends to destroy offense once it gets to +1. Bluffing the mega isn't as useful for Gyara as it is for something like TTar or Scizor which people will then assume is NOT the mega due to Gyarados being on the team. The second plus is Moxie, which makes mid-game cleaning much easier than it is for Mega Gyara. Although Mold Breaker helps against stall, so Gyarados does have a worse matchup against teams with Clefable or Quagsire. The last advantage is Bounce, which is incredibly useful due to the 30% chance to paraand the fact that Flying is generally not an easy type to switch into when you also boast Water and Ground coverage.

These are just some of the reasons that I believe Gyarados deserves A-

 

[Askeia]

Mantine is interesting as a defogger as it does list in as one of two defoggers that can beat heatran, the other being latias, which has to try. Of course, spinners have an easier time of it but this is beside the point. Heatran generally just sits in on defoggers and sets up more layers (and generally does this to lati, as well). Mantine can win, although it is a bit slow to do so. With water absorb, mantine does actually have a fantastic niche in taking pure RD CM rest Manaphy. Which, for stall, is almost unheard of outside of Venu getting in early.

Lastly, mantine does have access to haze. While not so worthwhile anymore, Haze+Scald makes it hard for anything to switch in and then for a setup sweeper to gain back any power. Speaking of scald, that's also another thing mantine does over gyara: Burns. Gyara really doesn't go special and I'm not sure it even has access to scald. However, mantine can threaten burn relatively easily making it at least a bit hard to switch into.

Gyara has scale, and haze isn't that much different from roar which gyara can do. Manaphy and Suicune can dream about setting up on a phazer unless it's a last mon. And that is very specific to when mantine outperforms gyarados

Yes mantine works, but just because he used it and it works doesn't mean that something will outperform it outside of very rare cases. and I don't think we should rank stuff based on extremely rare cases, otherwise even shit like murkrow has uses in rare cases

 

[mertyville]

Is this argument of "it can work" really relevant to the viability ranking? I am sure a high level player can make things like Driftblim work so does that mean it should be ranked because it has 3 immunities?
It just makes no sense to say Mantine works if more than half the Special Attackers, excluding Electric Types and including Keldeo, break through it after Stealth Rock damage.
Shouldn't the viability ranking reflect how effective a pokemon is in the metagame and how accessable it is for a player at the same time?

 

[MikeDawg]

Can we stop talking about Mantine? It has no place anywhere.

complete legitimacy can (unwillingly) attest to that. :D

It has a niche as a defogger in the same sense that Kanghaskan has a niche as a Fake Out mon woth scrappy, or, even more relevantly, that Ninjask has a niche over Scolipede as a defogger. In other words: who cares?

This niche does not warrant an entire teamslot for what is basically a liability (a stealth rock weak one at that).

If you really need a defogger ghat can beat heatran, run Latios with surf, or even earthquake. A slot for eq consumes less opportunity cost than an entire teamslot.

Imo it should be lower than D but w/e

 

[Sevifar]

Nice to see the lower ranks cleared up a bit. I was gonna make some arguments about Hydreigon and Rotom-H moving up, but I'll think I'll hold off until the suspect test ends, since countering/checking Aegislash is one of the reasons you'd use them.

Well since you are all so adamant about discussing Mantine I'm going to try and derail all that by pitching my support for Rotom-H to B-.

Rotom-H is a bit of an odd egg, and last gen was completely outclassed by its cleaning cousin, the washing machine. However Gen 6 has been very kind to Rotom-H, removing the ubiquitous rain, giving it a new, important resistance and making it easier to clear rocks.

Considering how close they are in role and performance, it's strange that their ranks are so far apart. I believe Rotom-H's current C+ ranking is because of this part of C ranking's definition:

Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Rotom-W currently sits in A, and only differentiated to Rotom-H through its typing and stab move. So this will basically be a comparison between the two. Hopefully I can show that Rotom-H is not completely outclassed by Rotom-W, and is a better choice for a team in many cases.

I'll start with a list of Pokemon that each can handle better than the other (Down to A- rank).
Rotom-W:
Tyranitar, Landorus's, Azumarill, Greninja, M-Gyara, M-Ttar, Keldeo, Heatran, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Diggersby, Gliscor.

Rotom-H:
Thundurus, Aegislash, Mawile, Bisharp, M-Pinsir, M-Scizor, Talonflame, M-Venu, Char-Y, Ferro, Gengar, Breloom, Kyu-B, Mamoswine, Skarm.

Rotom-H handles just as many things as Rotom-W, they are just different. For covering threats on a team, Rotom-H is often a more suitable choice than Rotom-W. Rotom-H's Overheat has better accuracy and power, but isn't spammable. It's still more than enough in most cases, and scores a lot of neutral 2HKO's. It also misses half as much as Hydro Pump.

Rotom-H only has 2 real disadvantages against Rotom-W: A weakness to water, and to stealth rock. Depending on your set, it's weakness to water isn't very important since with a Scarf you can EV to voltswitch out before taking a hit. This means you can still handle water pokes such as Greninja, Keldeo and Gyarados well. I don't have much to say about the SR weakness except defog is your friend on either side, and nearly every team has hazard support.

TLDR - Why Rotom-H should be B-
- Similar to Rotom-W, an A-rank mon.
- However, not outclassed by Rotom-W because:
- Handles different threats to Rotom-W (just as many, though)
- Key Resistances to Fairy and Electric

Happy reading people.

 

[alexwolf]

Mantine has been blacklisted and Gyarados has moved up to A- thanks to Halcyon's post.