Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Clone]

Supporting Mamoswine to A. Jukain said most of what needed to be said, but there's another thing Mamo does well: shit on Genie Spam. Lando is OHKOed by Ice Shard, while Thundy has a good chance of being OHKOed after rocks and a bit of prior damage (like 2 LO attacks iirc). It should also be noted that Thundy lacking Focus Blast can't even touch Mamo (HP Ice 5HKOes Thick Fat variants). On top of that, Mamo can easily get past some variants of DNite if given a free switch. Icicle Spear gets Past Multiscale and only needs 3 hits to KO. He's also a great revenge killer to the likes of Scarfchomp, Scarf Lando-T, and (like previously mentioned) DDNite thanks to having the most powerful Ice Shard in the game.

Having Ground/Ice as STABs is amazing offensively as well. The only thing in OU that resist both (that I can remember, at least) is Rotom-W, which can be circumvented by using Freeze Dry with a little SpAtk investment and scoring the 2HKO on the switch. It has its flaws defensively, but that's what keeps him out of A+. A- is just too low for him.

Mamo to A pls

 

[Muk]

Joining the Mamoswine for A bandwagon for the reasons listed above. It's one of the most useful Pokemon to have against offense.

I also agree that Gengar isn't that great and should be moved to A-. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see offensive LO Gengar become a thing again since it's now the premier Shadow Ball spammer other than maybe Chandelure (and obviously it's got a good offensive movepool and a great deal of unpredictability in general).

 

[effyouzion]

Gengar is a monster, he needs to stay A. Despite his relatively low usage, his stall breaker set is the only one that fits on offensive teams, and that set literally 6-0's stall teams that lack a hard counter (meaning any stall team without sp. def CharX, sp. def CharY, sp. def Moltres, or AV Torn-T). He's also far from dead weight against offense. His 3 immunities (plus immunity to toxic!) give him tons of switch ins against top threats, and no mon in the game short of the defensive mega Chars wants to face a Gengar behind a sub.

The only other mon that threatens stall as much as Gengar is mega Hera, and mega Hera has a shitty base 85 speed, which makes him dead weight vs. offensive teams. Gengar out speeds Keldeo and Terrakion, which is pretty awesome.

 

[Albacore]

Rotom-W absolutely does not deserve to move to A+, if anything, it should move down to A-. I mean yeah, it's a decent pivot who checks flyspam and sand offense, but it's pretty weak, not all that bulky, really easy to wear down, vunerable to chip damage, and very exploitable, not to mention that it has a bunch of solid counters and it's honestly not very good in most matchups. Any HO team that isn't sand or birdspam will just run through it, Stall often has multiple anwsers to it (Venu, Amoonguss, XZard, Chansey unless you run the TrickScarf set which you shouldn't because it's garbage, heck even SpD Gliscor can stall it out), and anything in between can easily chip away at it or just straight-up attack it.
The Aegi ban was almost certainly unfavorable to it for a few reasons, firstly, Pinsir can now use CC and, at +2, deal over 67% to it (and getting a Rotom-W to 2/3 of its max HP is not hard at all), and secondly, a few of its old counters such as the Latis and to a lesser extent Celebi benefitted from the ban and will probably gain popularity as a result.

Simply put, Rotom-W has way too many faults to even be considered for A+. In a similar vein, Landorus-T who was suggested for A+ a while ago really should stay A for much the same reasons : gets worn down, not hard to counter, easy to check, not that powerful, though it doesn't suffer from any of these nearly as much as Rotom-W does and fills the same role of flyspam check+sand HO check+physically defensive pivot with the advantage of being able to set rocks, and has a Choice Scarf set that is actually not terrible so it would make sense for it to be one rank above Rotom-W. Rotom-W for A-, Landorus-T stays A

 

[Jacks0n]

I really do think Keldeo should be S. It doesn't need much support at all, a pursuit trapper is great but it can be run withought, as well as something for bulky grasses. But seriously it's obscene power that is brings with its specs set means everything takes a risk switching in, even slowbro and venu and amoong due to fear of burn. It's got a slew or resistances that let it check some really dangerous Pokemon. It can also run some good sets like sub cm or scarf. It needs no less support that something like lando I and is just as threatening, moving it to S is long overdue.

 

[Karxrida]

I really do think Keldeo should be S. It doesn't need much support at all, a pursuit trapper is great but it can be run withought, as well as something for bulky grasses. But seriously it's obscene power that is brings with its specs set means everything takes a risk switching in, even slowbro and venu and amoong due to fear of burn. It's got a slew or resistances that let it check some really dangerous Pokemon. It can also run some good sets like sub cm or scarf. It needs no less support that something like lando I and is just as threatening, moving it to S is long overdue.

Keldeo's only way of getting past the Latis (which the Pursuit trappers are namely for) is Specs Icy Wind on the switch, which locks you into an undesirable move and makes you super easy to check since they can just switch out to avoid the 2HKO and send in a check (or Bisharp, Defiant's awesome).

Lando can actually screw over some of its checks with its last moveslot and doesn't need to be Choice-locked. U-turn and Knock Off both screw over Chansey/Latis, Calm Mind prevents Thundurus/Mega Manectric/Raikou from revenging you while still beating stall, and Rock Polish helps with anything on offense.

 

[.TM87]

Shouldn't Lati@s be A+ now that Aegislash is gone?
Mega Charizard Y should be A+ too.

Scizor should at least be A- because it doesn't need much support to Defog and Revenge Kill with Bullet Punch.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Rotom-W absolutely does not deserve to move to A+, if anything, it should move down to A-. I mean yeah, it's a decent pivot who checks flyspam and sand offense, but it's pretty weak, not all that bulky, really easy to wear down, vunerable to chip damage, and very exploitable, not to mention that it has a bunch of solid counters and it's honestly not very good in most matchups. Any HO team that isn't sand or birdspam will just run through it, Stall often has multiple anwsers to it (Venu, Amoonguss, XZard, Chansey unless you run the TrickScarf set which you shouldn't because it's garbage, heck even SpD Gliscor can stall it out), and anything in between can easily chip away at it or just straight-up attack it.
The Aegi ban was almost certainly unfavorable to it for a few reasons, firstly, Pinsir can now use CC and, at +2, deal over 67% to it (and getting a Rotom-W to 2/3 of its max HP is not hard at all), and secondly, a few of its old counters such as the Latis and to a lesser extent Celebi benefitted from the ban and will probably gain popularity as a result.

Simply put, Rotom-W has way too many faults to even be considered for A+. In a similar vein, Landorus-T who was suggested for A+ a while ago really should stay A for much the same reasons : gets worn down, not hard to counter, easy to check, not that powerful, though it doesn't suffer from any of these nearly as much as Rotom-W does and fills the same role of flyspam check+sand HO check+physically defensive pivot with the advantage of being able to set rocks, and has a Choice Scarf set that is actually not terrible so it would make sense for it to be one rank above Rotom-W. Rotom-W for A-, Landorus-T stays A

Firstly, Rotom-Wash isn't supposed to be a powerhouse. So I’m a bit confused as to why you mentioned that it’s “weak”. Secondly, it's not supposed to last forever, as with most pokémon on offense. The other 4 or 5 members on Rotom’s team are supposed to tear down the opponent’s defenses. Rotom’s job is to allow one offensive pokémon to safely switch into another while keeping momentum. As I mentioned earlier, Rotom is a defensive Band-Aid, not a wall. It lasts long enough (in most cases) to do its job of being a transport from one pokémon to the next. Yes, I will give you a point that Rotom does have counters like Megasaur and Chansey. But none of these (except gastrodon and lanturn lol) block Volt Switch—the one move that allows Rotom to do its job. Rotom isn’t supposed to break walls, just chip at them, and then its teammates take care of those threats. Also its ability to check many of the big sweepers—Mawile, Scizor, Pinsir, Gyarados, and Tyranitar—is another perk that it has.

I just believe Rotom is an A+ rank mon for support because it’s effective, and so damn easy to use for offensive teams. The machine will pull it's weight of being a pivot most of the time. Yes, if you send Mega-Venusaur in on Rotom it'll be walled, but Rotom will be volt-switching out as you send that thing in. So then, that Venusaur is in on a Pinsir instead.

 

[Karxrida]

Firstly, Rotom-Wash isn't supposed to be a powerhouse. So I’m a bit confused as to why you mentioned that it’s “weak”. Secondly, it's not supposed to last forever, as with most pokémon on offense. The other 4 or 5 members on Rotom’s team are supposed to tear down the opponent’s defenses. Rotom’s job is to allow one offensive pokémon to safely switch into another while keeping momentum. As I mentioned earlier, Rotom is a defensive Band-Aid, not a wall. It lasts long enough (in most cases) to do its job of being a transport from one pokémon to the next. Yes, I will give you a point that Rotom does have counters like Megasaur and Chansey. But none of these (except gastrodon and lanturn lol) block Volt Switch—the one move that allows Rotom to do its job. Rotom isn’t supposed to break walls, just chip at them, and then its teammates take care of those threats. Also its ability to check many of the big sweepers—Mawile, Azumarill, Scizor, Pinsir, Gyarados, and Tyranitar—is another perk that it has.

I just believe Rotom is an A+ rank mon for support because it’s effective, and so damn easy to use for offensive teams. The machine will pull it's weight of being a pivot most of the time. Yes, if you send Mega-Venusaur in on Rotom it'll be walled, but Rotom will be volt-switching out as you send that thing in. So then, that Venusaur is in on a Pinsir instead.

Mega Venusaur actually can't counter unless it's speed creeping (it needs 96 Speed EVs with a neutral nature to outpace neutral 44 Speed Rotom-W). It can get hit by a Will-O-Wisp as it switches in and Rotom-W outspeeds the next turn and Volt Switches out.

 

[effyouzion]

A well-played Rotom-W is extremely fucking annoying for stall. Pain split beats Chansey without toxic and WoW + volt switch makes mega Venu really easy to wear down. Hardly counters.

The motor should be A+ just because of how easy it is to slap on teams and bring the other 5 members together. He's a step ahead of Lando-T (the other bulky pivot) because he resists more useful shit and has pain split + WoW to beat some counters.

 

[Jacks0n]

Keldeo's only way of getting past the Latis (which the Pursuit trappers are namely for) is Specs Icy Wind on the switch, which locks you into an undesirable move and makes you super easy to check since they can just switch out to avoid the 2HKO and send in a check (or Bisharp, Defiant's awesome).

Lando can actually screw over some of its checks with its last moveslot and doesn't need to be Choice-locked. U-turn and Knock Off both screw over Chansey/Latis, Calm Mind prevents Thundurus/Mega Manectric/Raikou from revenging you while still beating stall, and Rock Polish helps with anything on offense.

sorry but secret sword does 40% to the lati's, with rocks and a bit of LO recoil they are going to take a beating switching in, especially if they have already taken a hit, in which they will probably get KO'd. Keldeo was #2 usage for wcop, and i know you usually don't use usage for a point, but if smogons best players use it so, so much, it defiantely says something. Lando i can screw over the latis with knock off, but keldeo beats chansey even easier, keldeo also has lots of things over lando i, such as a secondary stab, better speed, better bulk and arguably a better typing, at least defencively.

I stand by for Keldeo to S

 

[Muk]

I really do think Keldeo should be S. It doesn't need much support at all, a pursuit trapper is great but it can be run withought, as well as something for bulky grasses. But seriously it's obscene power that is brings with its specs set means everything takes a risk switching in, even slowbro and venu and amoong due to fear of burn. It's got a slew or resistances that let it check some really dangerous Pokemon. It can also run some good sets like sub cm or scarf. It needs no less support that something like lando I and is just as threatening, moving it to S is long overdue.

sorry but secret sword does 40% to the lati's, with rocks and a bit of LO recoil they are going to take a beating switching in, especially if they have already taken a hit, in which they will probably get KO'd. Keldeo was #2 usage for wcop, and i know you usually don't use usage for a point, but if smogons best players use it so, so much, it defiantely says something. Lando i can screw over the latis with knock off, but keldeo beats chansey even easier, keldeo also has lots of things over lando i, such as a secondary stab, better speed, better bulk and arguably a better typing, at least defencively.

I stand by for Keldeo to S

I disagree. In regards to the whole definition of S rank and all that, Keldeo has a lot of checks and safe switch-ins, although Scald burns are stupid for things like Azumarill. It's not really that versatile as it pretty much relies on just its STABs, so it can rarely catch common switch-ins off-guard. I guess it can surprise the Latis and Venusaur/Amoonguss with Icy Wind and HP Flying, but those don't even come close to 2HKOing without Specs which is easy to play around. Secret Sword is also kind of meh against the Latis, especially in the case of, say, Recover Latios.

Keldeo does have those advantages over Landorus, but Landorus can really screw over a lot of otherwise safe switch-ins without making itself completely predictable (lol Knock Off, or even HP Ice for Gliscor).

 

[Numera]

I'm going to agree on Mamoswine to A. Mamoswine is so anti meta, it's not even funny. The damn LO set hasn't got a lot of things that actually deal with it, considering the popularity of Freeze Dry. Jukain kinda summed up everything perfectly, and Clone makes a very good point about Mamoswine taking a shit on Gene spam, which is pretty huge. A rank is well deserved.

I also agree with Rotom W for A-. Honestly, there is no way this thing is A+. As already mentioned, it's actually not that bulky and is weak, bad in most matchups due to the amount of things in the meta that solidly counter it, easily worn down ext. In other words, Albacore summed up this one perfectly.

Azumarill for S is something that I find laughable that it hasn't happened yet. I know it's been discussed but I wanted to throw out my two cents on the situation. This thing puts pressure on a shit ton. Banded hits really hard, making it hard to switch into at times due to it's impressive STAB combo and access to Knock Off, Belly Jet is as scary af if you let it set up, and AV is just a general tank that can dish out a powerful hit after already eating up a special attack. It also has a form of priority which is always handy. All of it's sets are fantastic and very different, which alone is fantastic, but the other thing making Azumarill S rank is the fact that Mega Venusaur is the only universal counter. I also find Azumarill fairy easy to slap onto multiple teams. It's so damn useful to have. "Oh shit, I have a Keldeo weakness. Oh well, I'll use AV Azumaril" This all makes Azumarill S rank for having it's flaws made up for by multiple pluses (example: while Azumarill isn't the fastest thing in the world, it has access to Aqua Jet and hits stupidly hard with it's slower moves), for being versatile, for having 1 universal counter and for just overall being a truly fantastic Pokemon in the OU metagame.

 

[theV8man]

I second TerrorDave's proposal of Azumarill for S. Why?

• Azumarill plays like another Mamoswine in that when switched in on offense with a life orb/CB, something on the opponents team is likely to get clobbered
• Azumarill's AV set is amazing for patching up, let's say, a Greninja weakness, allowing Azumarill to at like a wall/pivot. This set shows that Azumarill doesn't need an offensive item to wreck, as Play Rough/Aqua Jet is enough for a ton of stuff.
• Azumarill can not only wallbreak and support, but with BD you can have a little psychotic bunny sweep your opponents team!
• Azumarill's typing allows it to fit nicely on to teams
• The only support Azumarill would like is Gothitelle for the BD set

This little guy has everything.

EDIT: I didn't mention that this thing absolutely tears on TR

 

[ItoI6]

nah man even a mega venusaur can lose from full health http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-144201551

azumarill is just ridiculous in that AV is an amazing glue to any team, CB can finish off sweepers from like 70% with an aj, and bellydrum is an amazing win condition. Literally all of its sets are so good you cant even identify which one it is because any of them could work on a team.

People throw out the word versatile, but azumarill really can pull it all off. Definitely an S rank mon

 

[Zebstrika]

I don't think Keldeo should be S rank. Btw A+ is still a really really good rank and I'm not asking it to drop, I only don't believe it is among the best of the best.

Keldeo is too reliant on its item to break walls and OHKO offensive mons because it's usually not hitting super effective, so it's either using Choice Specs or Life Orb as a power boost. So the main reason I don't think Keldeo should be S rank is really the drawbacks of these items.

With Choice Specs, Keldeo gets one chance to predict the switch in, and if it predicts wrong, it's forced out with a pretty big momentum.

There are also a lot of soft counters that can afford to scout the move it's locked into, and then that makes Keldeo very easy to handle. Even if Keldeo predicts perfectly, like hits Venusaur with HP Flying, Venu's not dead weight yet and can switch out to a resist (or, because it's hidden power in this case, just anything that's not weak to it). The majority of the grass types you'll see running around OU can scout its move, so can some water types like Slowbro, Azumarill, Slowbro, there's also Lati@s, Dragonite, AV Tornadus-T, SDef fairies like Sylveon being the most effective, etc. Say what you want about the effectiveness or viability of some of these soft counters, but there are still a lot of pokemon that do decently well, and that's a lot more than you can say about Mawile, Landorus, and Charizard X. Keldeo also doesn't need its coverage scouted like Mawile or Landorus or Zard X to an extent (is it Zard Y?). You can always expect Keldeo's stabs and then a weak ass hidden power / icy wind that is really just an excuse to take the 4th move slot, and that's part of the reason I can list off so many soft counters.

Keldeo, in general, is somewhat reliant on taking multiple switch ins to do its job. First, it can't expect to predict perfectly every time, and it's forced out each time it predicts wrong. Second, it relies on muscling through those "Soft counters" above by either giving them some prior damage so they can't safely switch in, or by burning them with Scald which on average takes ~3 Scalds. When it takes Keldeo multiple tries to break walls, it takes some team support to switch into its counters multiples times and you'll see offensive teams whose switchins to Keldeo's counters simply can't outlast those counters for long enough.

Life Orb works to keep most of Keldeo's power but the recoil means it might not get all the switch ins it needs. It also means Keldeo isn't as effective as a switch in to Bisharp, Tyranitar, M-Gyarados, Heatran, etc.

I actually believe Life Orb Calm Mind is by far Keldeo's best set but its lack of usage seems that most other people don't match my opinion on this, so it's not like I have to argue against its usefulness as much as I did against Specs.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

I'd like to see Jirachi at least get some kind of placement now Aegislash is gone. It has great versatility allowing it to run a plethora of decent sets, all of which have gained some viability with the Aegi ban. Off the top of my head, it can run physical choice scarf, CM + 3 attacks, sub CM, specially defensive, paraflinch, and a pivoting wish set. Furthermore, it has access to the rare healing wish allowing it to give a threatening sweeper a second chance when it's about to be knocked out.

Additionally, with the release of the shiny Jirachi in Japan, Jirachi now has access to Moonblast. Taking into account Serene Grace, this is a 95 BP move with a 60% chance to lower the opponents special attack. Not bad considering it also has great neutral coverage. I think this will give the CM sets a boost, and adds even more unpredictability to Jirachi since I see physical sets more currently. It definitely isn't amazing in the metagame; Steel/Psychic is not what it was, Bisharp is a huge threat now (and can actually take advantage of the increased -sp.atk chance of Moonblast), and it has competition from a range of threats. That being said, it can perform a range of roles, and it can do them well. It can take a hit if needed, dish out damage if needed, and has always had a reputation for being an extremely annoying mon to face. I'd be surprised if that isn't enough for it to at least place somewhere.

 

[AM]

I'd like to see Jirachi at least get some kind of placement now Aegislash is gone. It has great versatility allowing it to run a plethora of decent sets, all of which have gained some viability with the Aegi ban. Off the top of my head, it can run physical choice scarf, CM + 3 attacks, sub CM, specially defensive, paraflinch, and a pivoting wish set. Furthermore, it has access to the rare healing wish allowing it to give a threatening sweeper a second chance when it's about to be knocked out.

Additionally, with the release of the shiny Jirachi in Japan, Jirachi now has access to Moonblast. Taking into account Serene Grace, this is a 95 BP move with a 60% chance to lower the opponents special attack. Not bad considering it also has great neutral coverage. I think this will give the CM sets a boost, and adds even more unpredictability to Jirachi since I see physical sets more currently. It definitely isn't amazing in the metagame; Steel/Psychic is not what it was, Bisharp is a huge threat now (and can actually take advantage of the increased -sp.atk chance of Moonblast), and it has competition from a range of threats. That being said, it can perform a range of roles, and it can do them well. It can take a hit if needed, dish out damage if needed, and has always had a reputation for being an extremely annoying mon to face. I'd be surprised if that isn't enough for it to at least place somewhere.

My only question is what specifically does Jirachi even do in OU that really warrants a rank? It has access to a couple of cool things like Healing Wish, Serene Grace, and some neat sets but most of these work much better in UU where it's primarily used. Like you said it faces a lot of competition as well. I'm really just curious as to why this would be ranked specifically as opposed to something else that also isn't ranked under similar circumstances.

 

[Srn]

My only question is what specifically does Jirachi even do in OU that really warrants a rank? It has access to a couple of cool things like Healing Wish, Serene Grace, and some neat sets but most of these work much better in UU where it's primarily used. Like you said it faces a lot of competition as well. I'm really just curious as to why this would be ranked specifically as opposed to something else that also isn't ranked under similar circumstances.

Well for one, it provides a switch-in to mega gardevoir for balance teams, which is godly right there.
We all know it has some haxy BS so not gonna really go into that.
It can pass wishes and switch into latios and stuff, while beating non-scarf tar for the most part with iron head so its not gonna be pursuit trapped either.
Idk if CM is worth looking into at this point in the meta with sand offense everywhere but i'd say the above traits are enough for C+ or B-

 

[JMach]

Gengar should stay where it is in my opinion. SubWisp is still enough of a headache to keep it firmly in A, and although it's not the most earth-shattering offensive threat these days its LO set can still punch holes.

In my experience though Specs is a scarier option, especially for late game cleaning. When your opponent's been thrown around a bit, spamming SpecsGar Shadow Balls is so freaking satisfying! Then, a last-ditch Trick from a Specs set can mess your opponent around even further...

Destiny Bond is also worthy of note. A quick, unpredictable DB can really change the tide of battle. Combine that with Gengar's already terrifying attacking capabilities and I really can't see a reason to drop it any further.

It's just too versatile.

 

[Rosen]

Rotom-W... I see lots of decent arguments for it to move up, and just as many for it to move down. Imo, both have good reasons for both, but the way I see it is total justification for it to remain exactly where it is. It does grab and keep momentum hella easily and keep a good number of threatening pokes in check, but it can't switch into shit like Pinsir anymore after the Aegis ban with EQ no longer being a necessity, and with only Pain Split for recovery it does get worn down fairly quickly and struggles to do its job the longer the match goes on. Still a good poke tho, so Rotom-W stays in A. It's a good place for it and I see no overwhelming reasons why it should be ranked.

And yeah Mamo for A, I've been using that shit forever and can confirm its anti-meta-ness, great check to genie spam (excluding focus blast on Thundy) and Ice/Ground is a sexy, sexy offensive typing, however with the possibility of Mamo moving up I see this as a greater reason to rank Bronzong, as he's one of the few pokes out there to resist dem STABs (Rotom-W doesn't even count cuz Freeze Dry).

 

[Ropeburn]

I also agree with Rotom-W going to A-. Honestly, it's a great pokemon, but with all the new threats that have been unleashed since the Aegislash ban, his mediocre recovery options, and his low HP stat, A- seems like a much better pick.

Mamoswine for A seems like an excellent suggestion, as that thing punches holes in genie teams, and is super anti-meta.


Anyways, I'd like to get some other's opinions: What do you guys think of Lati@s to A+? Been using these two a lot, and the Aegi ban has really opened up their offensive options now that their biggest counter is out of the way. They provide incredible supportive power while boasting amazing speed and power, not to mention the utility that Healing Wish from Latias gives offensive teams.

 

[Flamebot]

Gengar should stay A rank
Sub-taunt-whisp is an amazing stall breaker, as it can shut down everything on stall, and is really only threatend by Heatran. This may sound crazy, but I even tried this thing on a stall team(Yes, I know this is weird but eh) and it does really well against other stall teams, making it alot easier.
Sub-wisp-taunt is also Okay against offensive teams, as burns can be a game changer.


And I'm sorry, LO Gengar is Medicore? I don't understand that. Not to many things want to switch into it, Ghost is a good offensive typing, and it has a good move pool. We already know Shadow ball is good it can actually use Psychic, and Dazzling gleam to some effectiveness and Focus blast and Sludge bomb(These two are usually preceded tho) are still pretty good
And, it can always run sub or whisp for Bisharp.

Now yes, it's offensive set isn't Amazing, but it's still good.

Also, I understand that some things are running alot more sp defence but ik not sure if that is enough to make it drop.


Gengar is also a decent late game cleaner, due to its good speed and ghost typing.

It is very frail tho, dying to almost any neutral attack but you should know what attacks will kill it and then switch out.

 

[Karxrida]

Gengar should stay A rank
Sub-taunt-whisp is an amazing stall breaker, as it can shut down everything on stall, and is really only threatend by Heatran. This may sound crazy, but I even tried this thing on a stall team(Yes, I know this is weird but eh) and it does really well against other stall teams, making it alot easier.
Sub-wisp-taunt is also Okay against offensive teams, as burns can be a game changer.


And I'm sorry, LO Gengar is Medicore? I don't understand that. Not to many things want to switch into it, Ghost is a good offensive typing, and it has a good move pool. We already know Shadow ball is good it can actually use Psychic, and Dazzling gleam to some effectiveness and Focus blast and Sludge bomb(These two are usually preceded tho) are still pretty good
And, it can always run sub or whisp for Bisharp.

Now yes, it's offensive set isn't Amazing, but it's still good.

SubWisp can spread burns to offense thanks to Gengar's great speed tier and can hit stuff it normally wouldn't be able to deal with if gets a Sub up on something it threatens.

LO sets are pretty customizable thanks to Gengar's movepool and I usually shit myself whenever I see one. All-Out Attacker and D-Bond + 3 Attacks are both effective, with D-Bond letting you beat Bisharp (you'll need Focus Blast to checkmate it if used Sucker Punch the turn you D-Bonded).

You can even pair a Gengar set with Taunt Bisharp to deal with Defoggers that successfully beat Bisharp (like HP Fighting Lati@s since they lose the ability to speed tie) and can spinblock to an extent.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Keldeo and azumarill should stay A+ rank, they are perfect for that rank and I dont see any argument for moving them up. I know Nog said we should wait a bit before bumping up pokes due to the Aegislash ban, so I waited and now I think Noivern and Starmie for B-. I have been using both of these mons alot and they are destroying the meta right now, they both outspeed the majority of it and hit for insane damage. But I will assess them separately.

Noivern, I am discovering, does not have very many switchins and is a fantastic cleaner(comparable to mega alakazam). He has an amazing movepool but is limited due to the low accuracy moves. It has access to Draco meteor/flamethrower/hurricane/focus blast, I mean that is just insane coverage. He also outspeeds greninja by 1 point which is hilarious and he is able to score the OHKO, he is capable of tearing up walls like ferrothorn, heatran, skarmory, tyranitar(which he can OHKO). You could also think of it like this, people are pushing for Lati@s to move up to A+ but noivern is better offensively and his only downside is not offering the support side of things. He also has a dangerous switcheroo+infiltrator (it could have pecha berry switcheroo and nail sub toxic gliscor lol) combo I mean this pokemon is incredible and I cant believe he was rendered completely useless just because Aegislash, he has at least 2 viable sets that I know of, including LO+4 attacks(or 3 attacks+roost), Choice+ switcheroo, and he might have an interesting set like that annoying crobat set. I think he could potentially move up to B honestly but I think B- will B a good start(lol). I will let you guys respond first because I have more to say but want to see your opinions first.

Starmie is obviously a poke on the rise that has already been mentioned, he is now an incredibly viable rapid spinner which is really nice considering we used to only have 1. I just think he needs a bump up because while he is outclassed offensively by greninja, he has access to rapid spin and fairs very well against most rock setters/defoggers. Starmie is also very versatile as it could be a status absorber, trick abuser, it can use reflect type and rapid spin to have a reliable rapid spin throughout the game, and has a very effective LO set. It has two equally great abilities in Natural Cure and Analytic, is also pretty darn fast and has access to the fabled boltbeam, which is incredible coverage in the meta. So yeah gimme thoughts on these two pokes I would love a good discussion about them.

I think rotom should stay A but I could honestly see A-, mainly because one of his HUGE selling points was being a good stop to pinsir, but now pinsir is running CC and rotom isnt as much of a problem anymore. I also agree with all of the previous points about him, like prone to chip damage, relatively weak, etc..

I have a p cool replay of noivern getting all 6 kills in a ladder match around 1800, my opponent misplayed but w/e.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148992317

Hers another good noivern game
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148986087