Quagsire still would win with the scald burn but yeah ik.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Quagsire still would win with the scald burn but yeah ik.
sd literally only needs the 3 moves I stated, outrage, stone edge, earthquake, idk where you get the idea that I said 7 moves. bulky sd uses dclaw but that's a / like on the analysis, not another move in reality.
edit1: Listen here, I'm not saying no pokemon can counter offensive sd or bulky sd or defensive cause they can, but it's the versatility that makes it so threatening, it;s hard to find a team that wouldn't appreciate garchomp (if you could get rid of a valued member ofc *cough cough, my stall rmt would require removing quagsire*
Many pokes can take those 3 moves. Lots of people run air balloon steels like excadrill and aegislash. Also at +2 many pokes can be considered unstoppable and the ones that make the headlines are the ones that are hard to revenge kill and can sweep in a instant. Considering garchomp is weak to ice, fairy, and dragon which are all common types and it doesn't get a priority move can make it pretty easy to counter when we get down to it. Also the first thing someone would probably switch to when a garchomp is sent in is a counter like sk.arm
I have three sugestions for the rankings
Mega Gardevoir for A- Mega gardevoir is actually a very solid pokemon in the current point in the meta. Baton pass is hell, and taunt Gardy can somewhat destroy it with its stab pixilated hyper voices through subs and a taunt. It can be a problem for stall with the taunt or calm mind set and can do work against hyper offence if backed by a sticky web or a sub or finding an opportunity to come in on a resisted attack and punish all switch ins. The only thing holding mega gardy back is its poor defence, middling speed and that it takes up a mega evo.
Mega Medicham for A- I am not sure why this has not happened yet, mega medicham is such a force to be reckoned with. Its a true pain for balance, behind a sub something in HO is gonna die and nothing in stall wants to switch in. Honestly this thing is great, and with the strongest move in the game at its arsenal, this thing should be A- a the least. The only thing holding this back is its lack of any good priority, borderline speed and that it takes up a mega slot.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions
Just some discussion points.
Mega Gardevoir for A- Mega gardevoir is actually a very solid pokemon in the current point in the meta. Baton pass is hell, and taunt Gardy can somewhat destroy it with its stab pixilated hyper voices through subs and a taunt. It can be a problem for stall with the taunt or calm mind set and can do work against hyper offence if backed by a sticky web or a sub or finding an opportunity to come in on a resisted attack and punish all switch ins. The only thing holding mega gardy back is its poor defence, middling speed and that it takes up a mega evo.
Mega Medicham for A- I am not sure why this has not happened yet, mega medicham is such a force to be reckoned with. Its a true pain for balance, behind a sub something in HO is gonna die and nothing in stall wants to switch in. Honestly this thing is great, and with the strongest move in the game at its arsenal, this thing should be A- a the least. The only thing holding this back is its lack of any good priority, borderline speed and that it takes up a mega slot.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions
Just some discussion points.
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Azumarill can switch in on any variant of Garchomp and OHKO with Play Rough. It can even switch in on Swords Dance Garchomp as it Dances, Dragon Claws, or Outrages, and take it out. That's a very common Fairy on Offense teams.
It's just too dangerous to risk getting locked on Outrage in today's meta - Steel and Fairy type Pokemon are way too common in the current meta. The checks and counters for Garchomp are commonly seen because they are either 1. Really good mons in the first place and/or 2. Counter a lot of the top threats, not just Garchomp. Garchomp's lack of priority means it's too easily revenged in the current meta even at +2 Atk.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions
It's just too dangerous to risk getting locked on Outrage in today's meta - Steel and Fairy type Pokemon are way too common in the current meta. The checks and counters for Garchomp are commonly seen because they are either 1. Really good mons in the first place and/or 2. Counter a lot of the top threats, not just Garchomp. Garchomp's lack of priority means it's too easily revenged in the current meta even at +2 Atk.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions
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Gardevoir, agreed.
Medicham, no. Walled by Aegislash, OHKOed by anything faster, HJK ineffective against ghosts and Protect and if something resists Fighting, Psycho Cut is not likely to OHKO it. There are better stallbreakers and sub users such as Landorus-I and Cube which have more bulk, coverage and don't take up a mega slot.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions
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js, Mega Medicham beats Aegislash:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And it usually uses Sub to prevent status and not be instantly killed :p
That's true, running Fire Punch would beat Aegislash by predicting an Aegislash switch, though not one-on-one. Problem is that Fire Punch is almost exclusively for Aeglislash and would mean dropping Ice Punch which provides much better coverage.
Honestly, the best Mega medicham set is ice punch/HJK/psycho cut and baton pass. This allows for example if mega medi was against rotom but the oponent also had an aegi. If the rotom was going to stay in and get ko'd by HJK and try will-o-wisp or they were going to try to switch to aegi, medi would have the momentum is both cases, but fire punch is definately viable.
Terrakion for A+ imo. It is arguably the best physical wallbreaker in the game by a long mile. Base 129 Atk with a CB or a LO+SD set makes its STAB Stone Edge insanely hard to switch into, and STAB CC provides very good SE coverage with it. Base 108 speed means only a handful of Pokemons can actually revenge kill it, especially against defensive teams which it thrives against. Justified might seem useless as an ability, but with Dark types being more common this gen, its good 91/90/90 bulk means it works as a makeshift switch in to Knock Off and Foul Play, so Mandibuzz hates it a lot. Sucker Punch is also more common this gen with Bisharp and Mawile being top tier threats. An EB + Rock set is also very reliable in setting up rocks, because of its ability to wreck most common spinners and Defoggers with its STABs. Its Scarf set is a great revenge killer, and alongside its great speed and coverage allows it to revenge kill the likes of +2 Dragonite, Gyarados, Tyranitar. It is basically the physical Keldeo. If Keldeo is in A+, why not Terrakion? Certainly it doesn't have as good a set of resistances, but it makes up for it by having better SE coverage, and having greater versatility overall.
He's just disagreeing is all.
As for the changes, I don't agree with them either. Mega Garde and Cham both hit ridiculously hard and are basically impossible to wall outside of really stupid niche stuff (except Aegislash but Garde and Cham both have at least one move that dicks with it, i.e. Will-o-Wisp and Fire Punch/Baton Pass) but they're both a bit slow (not absolute slouches but it's not difficult to find something that outspeeds) and really frail. Garde does moderately better against offensive teams cause 65/135 special bulk is pretty good, but neither are that great against it as opposed to other stall breakers like KyuB, Lando-I or Magic Guard Clefable who are fast or bulky on both sides.
Mega Man is sort of the opposite: it's good against more offensive teams cause it's so bloody fast, Electric/Fire is great coverage and Intimidate+Volt Switch is a great combo, but it's really bad against stall since it's walled by pretty much every other mon seen on Stall. Clefable, Mega Venu, Hippowdon, Quagsire, Heatran, bulky X-zard, Chansey, etc. Basically it can only handle Mega Scizor, Skarmory and Mandibuzz. Plus it's already been said its ranking is not going to change.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions
And the set listed in the analysis is High Jump Kick / Zen Headbutt / Fire Punch (or Ice Punch) / Substitute. You only miss out on Lando-T and Gliscor (Dragonite is OHKOed by Zen Headbutt after SR, while Garchomp is OHKOed by HJK), but you've got teammates for that. I agree Mega Medicham is good, it's just not A- Imo.
And the set listed in the analysis is High Jump Kick / Zen Headbutt / Fire Punch (or Ice Punch) / Substitute. You only miss out on Lando-T and Gliscor (Dragonite is OHKOed by Zen Headbutt after SR, while Garchomp is OHKOed by HJK), but you've got teammates for that. I agree Mega Medicham is good, it's just not A- Imo.
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I'll just bring this up again since it hasn't been addressed yet. What I believe to be the most underrated mon in the list.
C -> C+/B-/Hell even B : Umbreon is one of the best mixed defenders and is capable of easily taking any non-super effective hit bar Zard Y's Fire Blast. It performs the same cleric role as Sylveon (which is at B) with better bulk, Foul Play instead of Hyper Voice, and inferior typing which could be situationally better depending on the rest of the team. With defensive investment, Umbreon becomes a cleric with the same specially defensive bulk as Sylveon as well as a wall with a defensive bulk just very slightly below that of Mandibuzz (and without the SR weakness) with STAB Foul Play to punish physical attackers. Also has an edge over Sylveon as a status absorber with Synchronize.
While I understand garchomp is a powerhouse and can do so many things, I don't see how it's better than the rest of the "top-tier" A+'s to be an S-tier pokemon. I'm talking about pokemons such as azumarill, bisharp, etc. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing garchomp go to S. I believe it's a pokemon that's on the fence between S and A+ tiers.
But as it is now, I am leaning towards A+ more.
But as it is now, I am leaning towards A+ more.
Diagreeing with Gardevoir. Mega Gardevoir struggles with more offensive teams withs it's meh speed stat and seeing as ho offensive teams are quite common mega Gardevoir will rarely do alot against those because it probably already died with it's 60 / 60 defenses. While switching in on Gardevoir might be difficult revenge killing it is a whole lot easier with again those bad defense and hp stats. It is very good against Baton Pass but Espeon is also a whole lot better because of Baton Pass but that doesn't move up a rank. And with Sticky Web you have to run a mediocre Pokemon like Shuckle or Smeargle which is 2 teamslots for one Pokemon. Also taking up a mega evolution is another problem because then you can't run great Pokemon like mega Charizard X and mega Gyarados. All in all mega Gardevoir has too many problems to make it an A- rank threat.
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Mega Gardevoir has 65 HP and Defense, not 60. That aside, 100 Speed isn't particularly meh, but it's not the best, either.
Base 65 still is pretty bad. And base 100 speed is pretty bad if you wanna pull of a sweep with Pokemon like Greninja, Latios, Talonflame and Garchomp being on almost every team.
I'm not sure how azumaril can switch in on any garchomp as earthquake has a 94% chance to 2hko from a jolly scarf chomp and 108/95/85 defenses are nothing to sneeze at and definitely not asking to be killed by priority.
You have a good point, but take note of how Greninja, Latios and Garchomp can't switch in on its Pixilate Hyper Voice. Latios can't even 2HKO with Psyshock if Mega Gardy has 24 Defense EVs and while Greninja can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, Hyper Voice always OHKOes. Garchomp shreds Mega Gardy with EQ, but can't switch in on Mega Gardevoir.
This is exactly what makes Mega Gardevoir so dangerous - few things can reliably switch in on it. Max HP/SDef Calm Heatran is still 2HKOed by Focus Blast, for one, while the blobs need to watch out for Psyshock. Its susceptibility to Aegislash gives it some trouble, but without prior damage Shadow Sneak never OHKOes Mega Gardevoir, while Shadow Ball can OHKO Blade Forme Aegislash. Not only that, but Will-O-Wisp allows it to spread burn on incoming physical attackers and cripple them for the remainder of the match. Will-O-Wisp allows Mega Gardevoir to fuck up a lot of its would-be checks and more easily deals with them. The only drawback is that Heatran can get a free Flash Fire boost from Will-O-Wisp and Talonflame really doesn't give a shit.
I'll reiterate an earlier post I made about Mega Gardevoir:
B+ -> A- Chesnaught and Ninja Charizard have stated everything that needs to be said. Mega Gardevoir is a really dangerous sweeper/wallbreaker with an awesome offensive typing, decent Speed (though sometimes a bit disappointing) and a great movepool to boot. Its physical frailty (because fuck you GF, it should've had 75 Def/110 Spe) and susceptibility to priority are pretty annoying, but Mega Gardevoir is always guaranteed to rack up some high damage because it can't be switched in onto without taking a Pixilate Hyper Voice to the face. In short, Mega Gardevoir for A- Rank.
Sums it all up. Mega Gardevoir is an underrated gem of a Pokémon with its massive Special Attack, great backup Special Defense and good Speed with the ability to cripple its checks, but does suffer from poor physical bulk and a mild case of 4MSS. Overall, it requires some team support, but does its job as a special wallbreaker really well. Mega Gardevoir deserves A- Rank.
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Mega gard fits into B rank much better
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers.
It is not sweeping anyone with 100 speed but it fills an offensive niche with a bit of support. Calm mind sets are really nice, but it is too physically frail and can easily be revenge killed after. It requires too much support if it wants to sweep and has big 4mms for cm sets, hyper voice is required, psyshock is needed for blobs, but then it want shadow ball for sheild, hp fire for scizor/mawile (scizor bp ohkos anyway) and focus blast for tran. Without a coverage move it is walled by common threats. It needs the support to remove specific threats, which is why it should stay at b+
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 338-402 (121.5 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 259-305 (93.1 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 169-201 (60.7 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 304-358 (109.3 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 232-274 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It is very frail and is not hard to get chip damage especcially with lack of recovery
Who cares what can revenge kill her? From all those that you mentioned only Talonflame can switch into both Hyper Voice and Will-o-Wisp, but still takes a ton from Psyshock. Let's downgrade Charizard-Y even more because random stuff can revenge kill it. Even without Will-o-wisp (which means she's going to be running Taunt most of the time) she's still only walled by Aegislash, that's ONE thing out of how many stuff in the tier?
Gardy is a WALLBREAKER, not a sweeper, you can pretty much say the same about Keldeo, he can't sweep either because Thundurus, Lati@s, Sylveon, Talonflame, Greninja can revenge kill it.
Gardy is a WALLBREAKER, not a sweeper, you can pretty much say the same about Keldeo, he can't sweep either because Thundurus, Lati@s, Sylveon, Talonflame, Greninja can revenge kill it.
Those Pokemon can't switch in but revenge killing it is way to easy. Also it is a wallbreaker but that is the only thing it can do good. For a sweeper it's too slow and too easily revenge killed and for a tank is doesn't have enough defensive stats even with that decent special defense. Mega Gardevoir's only real reason to use it is because it's a wallbreaker, however there are wallbreaker's mega Gardevoir has to compete with like Charizard Y. Taking up a mega slot is also a big downside and with all of that mega Gardevoir just doesn't deserve A- rank.
Imo this revengekilling argument is incredibly bad to begin with and it gets even worse against wall breakers who dont even have to set up like Medicham or Guardevoir. Revengekillers cant switch into them so the only way for them to get in is after something died which means, after the wallbreaker did his job, and even if they get in, what keeps the wallbreaker from just switching out? Nothing. They didnt waste turns on setting up, they arent weak to hazards, they have literally no reason to stay in. If someone loses his Guardevoir/Medicham to a revengekiller he is either bad or in a situation where has no choice other than sacrificing it. The reason they shouldnt be A- is more that there are simply better options out there that dont get checked so well by common pokes like Aegi.
Mega Gardevoir's speed is pretty good considering it's a wall breaker. It's hard to ignore its base 165 special attack and its base 135 special defense allowing it to come in on quite a few special attackers and force switches in the process. Wasting a mega slot isn't that bad imo because there are a lot of great non mega pokemon out there like Thundurus Landorus and Aegislash that can sweep teams. A- is perfect for Mega Gardevoir because it's not too good for A or higher, but i think it's just too powerful to be in B rank.
How on Earth is Azumarill going to be taking a +2 Earthquake OR ko with Aqua Jet? I agree that outrage is no longer the quintessential physical dragon STAB of choice with fairies just waiting to switch into it, but fairies can only gain a free turn after outrage has killed something, and they have to use that turn to kill chomp, otherwise I think there are new mechanics that if outrage is blocked you don't get confused. Also, There are two priority attacks that can knock out a healthy garchomp, ice shard and Gale wings brave bird.
Azumarill can't switch into any variant of Garchomp because it is 2hko'd by choice scarf earthquake and does only 41% max with Banded aqua jet. There are other fairies and even steel types that can actually switch into Garchomp, the best being togekiss and skarmory.
Garchomp should stay where it is, It's speed has been repeated described as trolly, it's bulk. described as greater than swampert's, and it's offensive prowess is extremely formidable, A+.
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