Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Karxrida]

I love how there's two completely different conversations going on.

Anyway, drop Breloom down back to B+. It is too dependent on Focus Sash to do several of its jobs, meaning it requires Rapid Spin/Defog support to check what it's supposed to, and everything in S-Rank at least checks it. Beating Bisharp is nice and all but one Spore can only go so far.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Lol actually SR is more common than ever this gen because of new threats Zard-Y, Zard-X, Talon, D-Nite (not new but still very common), Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, etc. Also the Deo forms are still around both of which are pretty much staples on a lot of HO teams, as well as Garchomp, Mamo, and Tyranitar, and they all get up SR very easily. Pretty much every stall teams needs them as well or else they're going to have a lot more issues with wallbreakers such as Kyurem-B and Landorus who could keep switching in and out without worries. Why do you think Defog and Excadrill are so good at the moment? Because they remove SR lol. I've yet to see any really good team that lacks SR, it's just that important, and so easy to fit onto a team I see no reason why you wouldn't use it on every single team you make. It's like a check to a bunch of Pokemon in itself.

Yes but unlike last gen you dont need to put a mediocre pokemon on your team with the sole purpose of removing hazards. Pokemon like lati@s, skarm, excadrill, and mega scizor are really solid outside of hazard removal and so it really isnt tough to get rid of rocks. Rocks are nice this gen, but there are still teams that could care less about them and defog does get rid of your own rocks so if your team personally hates having rocks up it is often better to not even carry rocks of your own as they will just get blown away.

 

[NoahStar]

Yes but unlike last gen you dont need to put a mediocre pokemon on your team with the sole purpose of removing hazards. Pokemon like lati@s, skarm, excadrill, and mega scizor are really solid outside of hazard removal and so it really isnt tough to get rid of rocks. Rocks are nice this gen, but there are still teams that could care less about them and defog does get rid of your own rocks so if your team personally hates having rocks up it is often better to not even carry rocks of your own as they will just get blown away.

I think the problem with this is that while its easier to remove hazards, its also easier to punish those that try to remove them. Bisharp is able to take out almost every common defogger in OU and Air Balloon Aegi is able to spinblock the top spinners. Gen 6 is also a much bulkier meta where most SR users are able to come in and set up rocks multiple times durring the match. I think it evens itself out.

 

[rachet67]

I think the problem with this is that while its easier to remove hazards, its also easier to punish those that try to remove them. Bisharp is able to take out almost every common defogger in OU and Air Balloon Aegi is able to spinblock the top spinners. Gen 6 is also a much bulkier meta where most SR users are able to come in and set up rocks multiple times durring the match. I think it evens itself out.

Bisharp is finding it harder to come into defoggers that it used to always be able to switch into. Bisharp could always take on Latias, and Assualt vest Bisharp could even switch into Latios, but now both are starting to run HP fighting, which turns Bisharp's situation into a pursuit/sucker punch coin-flip. People in general are being a lot more careful about Bisharp, and are running defoggers that can either deal with it to some extent, or in stall's case, running the semi-reliable Quagsire with their defogger

Though it is true that a lot of teams are still not careful of defiant Thundurus.

 

[Jukain]

I just wanna say that the arguments against Char Y because it can't break Chansey are bullshit...Char Y teams should have Pursuit Bisharp which can easily pressure Chansey into 2HKO range from Char Y, it's not even that hard. If this is your argument, you don't know what you're talking about in the context of a Char Y team.

 

[Andrew]

I don't really like Heal Bell on Clef. Now, I am an avid supporter of using Clefable, unaware is awesome, physically invested she takes hits pretty well...
But I don't think her main role should be 'wish-passer'...if ur using a set of Moonblast / Wish / Protect / Calm Mind, she Wishes to heal herself, and every once in a while on a switch or weak attack you have the perk of being able to heal ur team mate. But I don't think that's her main role. On the same set she can calm mind on a switch and immediately be much more bulky and powerful, as long as the opp doesn't send in Heatran. Of course there's other options like Moonlight, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Stealth Rock, and Heal bell if u want to forego WishTect, but I don't think "i need a wish passer, I'll use Clefable". It's more of, I need a physical tank who can boost, cover opposing boosters, and once in a while wish pass to a teammate.

Edit: If I really want a wish passer, I'll use Chansey...sometimes I've tried Sylveon Cleric Set for more offensive presence, but I don't really know how to use her correctly in a team context

 

[Jukain]

Oh and the Clef vs Sylveon debate, Sylveon is technically better strictly in terms of bulk to handle special threats but Clef fits more easily into a variety of teams due to covering a more important defensive niche with Unaware and such, as well as potentially providing a win con with CM.

 

[NoahStar]

Bisharp is finding it harder to come into defoggers that it used to always be able to switch into. Bisharp could always take on Latias, and Assualt vest Bisharp could even switch into Latios, but now both are starting to run HP fighting, which turns Bisharp's situation into a pursuit/sucker punch coin-flip. People in general are being a lot more careful about Bisharp, and are running defoggers that can either deal with it to some extent, or in stall's case, running the semi-reliable Quagsire with their defogger

Though it is true that a lot of teams are still not careful of defiant Thundurus.

Bisharp will still put pressure on Lati@s and dissuade them from using Defog--which is Bisharp's purpose. I agree that people are starting to adapt to Bisharp (I love how gen 6 is constantly changing) but for now, he still does his job pretty well.

 

[TheDuckChris]

On the Sylveon vs. Clefable debate. While Clefable is more often the better choice for a defensive fairy type, Sylveon does perform the cleric role slightly better as we have demonstrated. This being said, I think there doesn't really need to be much discussion on them because they are pretty much exactly where they should be right now. To say Sylveon is outclassed would say that it should be demoted, which it shouldnt. However saying it is as good as clefable would mean clefable should drop, which it also shouldnt.
Tl;dr they're fine where they are and in the future we should evaluate them separately.

On another point, I think Rotom-W is getting better and better. Mega Pinsir is quite common on the ladder, stall is decreasing in popularity, and Sand Rush Excadrill is on like a third of the teams right now. Rotom-W takes only about half from a +2 rock slide if phsyically defensive, and can wear down things like Thundurus or Gengar if specially defensive. While I'm not sure if this is enough to push it back up to A, it's definitely something to keep in mind.
EDIT: after a quick glance no one from the entire A+ rank wants to switch into it except for clefable so yeah maybe A

 

[Rotosect]

Rotom-W has issues with several A rank threats, such as Kyu-B, Ferrothorn, Latios and Mega Venusaur. In order to be ranked there some of them should move up first.

 

[Baharoth]

Yeah, I get that, but one of the arguments against Clefable as a Wish passer that was used in an earlier post was that it gets 3HKOed to easily. Essentially, they were saying that it needs its own Wish to heal itself too much to safely pass it to teammates. My point is that Sylveon suffers the same problem since even many special attackers still 3HKO or more. This is also why I alluded to Chansey in an earlier post because I honestly find it to be a far better Wish passer than either of them anyway. Unlike the other two, it actually laughs at a pretty solid number of special attackers to the point where it can Wish pass without concern to its own well-being and has a secondary recovery move for itself, but I digress.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Clefable is a phenomenal WishTect + Bell user or that Sylveon is a bad one. Like I said earlier, I could even understand why you might consider Sylveon to pull off that set better. All I'm saying is that Clefable does have perks to running such a set, and it is not garbage or overwhelmingly outclassed at that role like a few users have implied or outright stated.

Its more about Clef getting 2hkoed while Sylveon can have enough special bulk to only be 3hkoed or less. Specs Keldeos Hydro Pump is a 3hko and thats one of the most powerful special attacks in the tier. If it uses scald on the switch it barely hurts Sylveon, same for unboosted Thundurus, Greninja and so many other special attackers that arent as powerful. Against all of them Sylveon can afford to wish pass while still having enough life left to come in again. Ofc Chansey is far better in that regard, its almost immune to most special attacks so it can come in over and over again without having to heal itself. Its not about who is the number one Wishpasser overall, thats Chansey no questions asked, but after Chansey Sylveon is the next best choice imo, and for balanced teams Sylveon is first choice because it has more offensive presence. Clefable isnt garbage as a wish passer, but 9 out of 10 times Sylveon is the better choice imo.


Regarding Zard Y I still think it belongs in S rank but I doubt the discussion will get us anywhere. There are good arguments for dropping it, SR weak, easy to force out/revenge kill, walled by Chansey etc but there are equally good arguments for putting it back into S rank, SR is easier to remove than ever, it has Roost to come in multiple times so it doesnt have to stay in against revenge killers and its incredibly hard to switch into.

From my experience it can be a huge pain for every team lacking Chansey, if the player using it manages to keep rocks off the field and brings it in over and over again it realy hurts as you have to switch something into it every time.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

I love how there's two completely different conversations going on.

Anyway, drop Breloom down back to B+. It is too dependent on Focus Sash to do several of its jobs, meaning it requires Rapid Spin/Defog support to check what it's supposed to, and everything in S-Rank at least checks it. Beating Bisharp is nice and all but one Spore can only go so far.

Nothing in S-rank can switch into Breloom thanks to Spore and most fail even to check unless Breloom's Sash has already been broken. Even if a Pokemon has already been sacrificed to sleep, Zard-X and Thundurus require Breloom's Sash to be broken to check, and only Aegislash can safely switch in. If Breloom is running a Toxic heal set, Aegislash can't even manage that. Spore is far from the only thing Breloom is able to do - it also has tremendously powerful STAB, powerful STAB priority, and a pretty strong coverage with a useful secondary effect in Rock Tomb, on top of the ability to wall a lot of threats who get off on the wrong foot with its Toxic Heal set.

 

[theV8man]

I just wanna say that the arguments against Char Y because it can't break Chansey are bullshit...Char Y teams should have Pursuit Bisharp which can easily pressure Chansey into 2HKO range from Char Y, it's not even that hard. If this is your argument, you don't know what you're talking about in the context of a Char Y team.

So not only does Charizard Y need hazard support, it needs teammate support as well to do its job, because it can't wallbreak without something breaking Chansey for it. The Chansey argument isn't bullshit because it proves that Charizard Y yet again needs more support than other S ranks to do its job...

 

[Baharoth]

So not only does Charizard Y need hazard support, it needs teammate support as well to do its job, because it can't wallbreak without something breaking Chansey for it. The Chansey argument isn't bullshit because it proves that Charizard Y yet again needs more support than other S ranks to do its job...

Adamant Zard X aside everything in S rank has a hard counter, pretty much every pokemon has. Thats not an argument against Zard Y, i wouldnt even call that support and even if, needing 1 single mon removed while beeing able to kill everything else in 2 hits is something not many pokemon can boast, even most S ranks cant say that. And Charizard Y has always been rock weak it still was S rank for a long time so I dont think thats a valid argument to demote it. If the meta would have become more hostile towards it the demotion would have been fine but imo that was/is not the case.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

True, but none of them appreciate a sun-boosted Fire Blast on the switch. And no Special Attacker can break Chansey.

Nigga don't forget about landorus

 

[Anty]

Adamant Zard X aside everything in S rank has a hard counter, pretty much every pokemon has. Thats not an argument against Zard Y, i wouldnt even call that support and even if, needing 1 single mon removed while beeing able to kill everything else in 2 hits is something not many pokemon can boast, even most S ranks cant say that. And Charizard Y has always been rock weak it still was S rank for a long time so I dont think thats a valid argument to demote it. If the meta would have become more hostile towards it the demotion would have been fine but imo that was/is not the case.

The main problem with yzard is that the meta has become more hostile and it isnt as threatening as it was before. Stuff like blissey or latios dont care about it and the can easily beat it/defog/status. Comparing it to the other S-ranks worsens your argument, yzard can easily be revenge killed, whilst lando/xzard could have speed boosts, deoxys are either suicide leads/hard to out speed, nothing wants to revenge thundy at the risk of a para and aegislash is hard to revenge kill unless weakened and has priority. Yzard is just very easy to handle, all the other S-rank threats can 6-0 a team (apart from deo-d and deo-s, yes np thundy is a threat), yzard will never be able to do that unless the opponent has a shocking team build

 

[theV8man]

Adamant Zard X aside everything in S rank has a hard counter, pretty much every pokemon has. Thats not an argument against Zard Y, i wouldnt even call that support and even if, needing 1 single mon removed while beeing able to kill everything else in 2 hits is something not many pokemon can boast, even most S ranks cant say that. And Charizard Y has always been rock weak it still was S rank for a long time so I dont think thats a valid argument to demote it. If the meta would have become more hostile towards it the demotion would have been fine but imo that was/is not the case.

Charizard Y is a wallbreaker. Landorus-I is a wallbreaker in S rank because nothing viable can switch in. Charizard Y is not only weak to rocks but it can't even break the most essential stall mon by itself. This is what differentiates Lando and Char, one needs significant support, the other one doesn't.

 

[Baharoth]

Stuff like blissey or latios dont care about it and the can easily beat it/defog/status

But they have always been around, it still was S rank. And Lati usage has gone down from my experience in the last months mainly because they are pursuit bait. It should also be mentioned that Bisharp deals with both counters very well.

yzard can easily be revenge killed, whilst lando/xzard could have speed boosts, deoxys are either suicide leads/hard to out speed, nothing wants to revenge thundy at the risk of a para and aegislash is hard to revenge kill unless weakened and has priority. Yzard is just very easy to handle, all the other S-rank threats can 6-0 a team (apart from deo-d and deo-s, yes np thundy is a threat), yzard will never be able to do that unless the opponent has a shocking team build

Lando never runs speed boosting moves, Zard X can have one but there are tons of things that stop him even at +1, far more than there are save switches for Zard Y. Deoxys is fast but also weak, same for thundy there are like a million things that can stop them dead in their tracks. Honestly half the S ranks are easier to handle than Zard Y if you wanna take that approach.

Charizard Y is a wallbreaker. Landorus-I is a wallbreaker in S rank because nothing viable can switch in. Charizard Y is not only weak to rocks but it can't even break the most essential stall mon by itself. This is what differentiates Lando and Char, one needs significant support, the other one doesn't.

That statement is false. Depending on the set there are quite a few switch ins. Lando has a move to kill everything but only 4 move slots. Its probably the most severe case of 4 mss in the tier. Earth power is mandatory, Psychic is needed for fighting Types and Venu, Sludgebomb for Fairys, Knock Off for the Latis and Chansey, Focus Blast for Chansey, Skarm and others, CM to get the power for the needed 2hkoes and if possible also HP Ice to have something to at least tickle CBB Dragonite. Oh an did i mention that U-Turn and even SR are also possible move options? Zard needs just 4 moves to cover everything it can hope to beat and it doesnt even have to predict on switches as Fire Blast deals massive damage to basicly everything, it can just go and spam it. Spamming Earth Power wont get Lando anywhere and its coverage moves arent that frightening against the wrong target. Lando doesnt care about SR as much, there for it lacks recovery making it easy to wear down, its also less bulky. Imo those 2 are pretty even as wallbreakers. The biggest edge Lando has is that he doesnt need a mega slot.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

Landorus runs Rock Polish sometimes so that it can outspeed more offensive threats, although it's not very common.

Also after saying that, then realize that Charizard Y can't touch half of those things (Chansey, Latis, Dragonite, Fairies invested heavily in SpD) and still be an effective wallbreaker no matter what move it runs. Also Calm Mind and Knock Off mainly do the same thing for Landorus (as far as I can tell) in that they both allow it to beat Chansey, and I don't think anyone runs them together. Landorus is also bulkier physically, although neither one should be taking attacks. They're both easily revenged, but that's the only real thing where they're even. Also saying that Charizard Y needs Pursuit support is no reason to put him in S.

Charizard Y also needs a lot more support than Landorus (pursuit support, sand support to ensure that it gets 5 turns of sun, a physical attacker to break all of the Pokemon it can't, a Pokemon to beat faster opposing Pokemon with Rock-type moves, a Pokemon to beat opposing weather inducers that will trap it when it uses SolarBeam, defog support, rapid spin support). I also don't really want to be using my Mega slot just to wallbreak when I could be using it on a Pokemon that can sweep, give my team momentum with U-turn/Volt Switch, or provide defensive synergy for my team.

Charizard Y excels at its role when provided with support, but the support that it needs is what's keeping it from being S rank, as the Pokemon in S often support more Pokemon than they need support from (Aegislash, both Deoxys, Charizard X). You can usually slap these Pokemon on any team and have them provide lots of support for it. Anyone arguing for Charizard Y for S rank should also probably check out the posts about it on page 5 of the VR thread, which eventually resulted in it being demoted, and refute them too.

 

[Baharoth]

Also after saying that, then realize that Charizard Y can't touch half of those things (Chansey, Latis, Dragonite, Fairies invested heavily in SpD) and still be an effective wallbreaker no matter what move it runs.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

To lazy to look for CBBs Dragonite spread but I wouldnt call that "cant touch them" Especially considering that Latis have a difficult time finding room for Recover on their move slots and Sylveon is by far the Fairy with the most special bulk in the tier.

Regarding support, it essentially needs Bisharp to deal with its counters and a Defoger/Rapid Spinner, something that is mandatory on basicly every team. Thats surely more support than Aegi for example needs but its not a big deal imo, not when looking at the power Zard provides.

 

[theV8man]

That statement is false. Depending on the set there are quite a few switch ins. Lando has a move to kill everything but only 4 move slots. Its probably the most severe case of 4 mss in the tier. Earth power is mandatory, Psychic is needed for fighting Types and Venu, Sludgebomb for Fairys, Knock Off for the Latis and Chansey, Focus Blast for Chansey, Skarm and others, CM to get the power for the needed 2hkoes and if possible also HP Ice to have something to at least tickle CBB Dragonite. Oh an did i mention that U-Turn and even SR are also possible move options? Zard needs just 4 moves to cover everything it can hope to beat and it doesnt even have to predict on switches as Fire Blast deals massive damage to basicly everything, it can just go and spam it. Spamming Earth Power wont get Lando anywhere and its coverage moves arent that frightening against the wrong target. Lando doesnt care about SR as much, there for it lacks recovery making it easy to wear down, its also less bulky. Imo those 2 are pretty even as wallbreakers. The biggest edge Lando has is that he doesnt need a mega slot.

Ok so pros for Char Y:
- Harder to switch into

Pros for Lando
- Can break every relevant wall in the tier
- It doesn't have 4 mss, it has the ability to run options other than pure wallbreaking, such as late game cleaning, hazard setting
- Doesn't take up mega slot
- Better defensive typing
- No stealth rock weakness
- 1 more speed point so it outspeeds all base 100's

Is there anything better about Char Y other than it's harder to switch in? Please don't say its unpredictable because you don't know if it's gonna be X or Y...

 

[rachet67]

Ok so pros for Char Y:
- Harder to switch into

Pros for Lando
- Can break every relevant wall in the tier
- It doesn't have 4 mss, it has the ability to run options other than pure wallbreaking, such as late game cleaning, hazard setting
- Doesn't take up mega slot
- Better defensive typing
- No stealth rock weakness
- 1 more speed point so it outspeeds all base 100's

Is there anything better about Char Y other than it's harder to switch in? Please don't say its unpredictable because you don't know if it's gonna be X or Y...

The only thing that's wrong with your list is that Lando has better defensive typing. This isn't really true, as Charizard-Y has decent defensive typing outside of its weakness to SR, and unlike Landorus, has special bulk to back it up and has roost. Otherwise, I agree that Landorus is better at wall breaking for the most part, but they fit on different teams, and Charizard-Y is still pretty good.

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

I think that Blissey should be in B tier. This is because it is only partially outperformed by chansey with slightly better HP, leftovers, and isn't completely crippled after having its item knocked off. It is also comparable to another pokemon in B, sylveon. It can cure status. Blissey has better SpD, HP (and therefore wishes) and guaranteed 100 damage while sylveon has slightly better speed, better Def, and a better offensive presence.

 

[JebusChrist]

I think that Blissey should be in B tier. This is because it is only partially outperformed by chansey with slightly better HP, leftovers, and isn't completely crippled after having its item knocked off. It is also comparable to another pokemon in B, sylveon. It can cure status. Blissey has better SpD, HP (and therefore wishes) and guaranteed 100 damage while sylveon has slightly better speed, better Def, and a better offensive presence.

Sylveon has much better typing, is a solid member of BP teams, and can possibly run a choice specs set (not sure how good it is but it's in the analysis iirc). And Chansey should never be staying in or switching into something with knock off.

 

[Salt]

I think that Blissey should be in B tier. This is because it is only partially outperformed by chansey with slightly better HP, leftovers, and isn't completely crippled after having its item knocked off. It is also comparable to another pokemon in B, sylveon. It can cure status. Blissey has better SpD, HP (and therefore wishes) and guaranteed 100 damage while sylveon has slightly better speed, better Def, and a better offensive presence.

Chansey is literally 100% better. Knock Off isn't an issue because you shouldn't keep your Chansey in on Knock Off (and its bulk isn't even bad without Eviolite, just worse than it was). The larger wishes don't matter when both still have <700 HP. The higher Special Defense doesn't matter at all because of Eviolite. Leftovers is not a good enough justification to use Blissey over Chansey. I don't know what you're getting at with the "100 damage" point because Chansey can use Seismic Toss too.